On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 11:20 AM, Erynn Albert wrote:

We welcome any thoughts and information and experience that this group can share!

I have no direct experience with it, but based on the evidence, it's only groups that rely on one of the forbidden types as their main intent that get shut down or removed.? If you look at /search?p=SubsCount,,,20,1,0,0 you can see about 25 groups (with 0 members) that have been disabled for violating TOS.? Most of them seem to be for copyright violations, though a few are obviously (to me) for other reasons.? As was mentioned, you could contact support for a direct answer, but I suspect discussion is acceptable.

Duane
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On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 05:16 PM, Samuel Murray wrote:

And like I said in a previous mail: one should realise that the new pricing structure means that Groups.io is no longer meant for most groups, and that Google Groups may be a better solution for many groups.

Hi Samuel,

I'm not sure what you mean that Groups.io is "no longer meant for most groups" or "Google Groups may be a better solution for many groups"? Can you be more specific about "most" and "many"?

Mark

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 02:26 AM, B. Brooke Mann wrote:

Is there an alternative to using port 25

No, groups.io accepts incoming emails only at port 25.

Work begins on Groups.io in 2014

When:
Wednesday, 6 January 2021

Description:
Mark Fletcher posted in Twitter that this date as the anniversary of his starting work on Groups.io:

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On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 05:28 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:

It would be nice to be able to somehow filter the list based on any of these status badges.?

Agree, it would be very helpful to be able to filter on badges, not just member status badges but also sub preferences badges as well, any available/shown badge in that list.

Cheers,
Christos

Hi Lena,

Thank you for sharing your Perl script.

I was able to get through step #12 successfully, running on my Windows PC.? But at step #13, I'm getting the error message that port 25 is blocked by my ISP (Comcast, confirmed that they do block port 25, like most other ISPs in the US).

I also tried running the script from a web server that I have access to -- same result that I can only get through step #12.? (Actually, at step #13, it says "Please wait" but it never gives the error message about port 25 being blocked, and I don't see the automated Help email that's supposed to be sent.)

Is there an alternative to using port 25, if I make some changes in the Perl code?? (I only know very basic Perl, but I could copy-paste if given some direction...)

Thank you for any suggestions!

The costs are not that high so a small donation from members is all that is needed. They shouldn't be collecting excess funds.

Mark wrote that for premium accounts the cost will be?$220/year.
Up to 400 members, then $0.05/member/month or $0.55/member/year for each member above that.

So if a group has about 220 members, the cost would be only a buck ($1) each per member per year!?

I don't think that the group owner should be collecting more than is necessary to pay the cost of the group.?
Another reason why paying directly to Groups.io might be good. Some might choose a few dollars and some might not contribute at all. But isn't that okay?

Frances
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On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 05:11 PM, KWKloeber wrote:

Before I submit to the beta group, when I look at our ADMIN > member list, the filter at the top shows member setting attributes such as banned, bounced, moderators, etc.? But I cannot filter to locate moderated members (group setting overrides.)

A person on override:moderated will display an "M" status badge within the regular member list.?

/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/additional-information/member-badges-and-topic-icons?

Is this a #BUG or am I missing something?

Sounds like a #suggestion, not a #bug.

Is there any other filter that should be added?

I have often wished to be able to easily identify everyone who is not confirmed (NC).

I've also sometimes wondered by Banned was not implemented as a badge.

It would be nice to be able to somehow filter the list based on any of these status badges.?

Regards,
Bruce

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On 03/01/2021 23:08, Mark Murphy wrote:

I should have mentioned also: please provide suggestions for ways to reduce the cost of your group.

Well, one could combine the group's activities with other platforms.

For example, one could have both a Google Group and a Groups.io group, and then limit the Groups.io group to paying members, while still maintaining some kind of interaction between the two groups (e.g. regularly reminding folks on the Google Group to read posts on the Groups.io group, or by sending the "summaries" to the Google Group.

Or, I'm not sure if RSS is an option, but if so, one could allow non-paying members to contribute comments on another platform, e.g. a forum or a blog, and then collect the comments once a week and post them to the group.

Or, one could tell non-paying members to send their posts to the group owner, who then posts it to the group daily or weekly.

I'm not sure if allowing non-members to post to the group would continue to be available to free basic groups, but that may be another option.

One really has to ask oneself what are the REAL benefits of Groups.io in a scenario where everyone are in e.g. a Google Groups group but some are also in the Groups.io group. Are there features of Groups.io that can be useful in such a situation, so that you might ask certain members to join the Groups.io group, but others not?

And like I said in a previous mail: one should realise that the new pricing structure means that Groups.io is no longer meant for most groups, and that Google Groups may be a better solution for many groups.

Samuel

Before I submit to the beta group, when I look at our ADMIN > member list, the filter at the top shows member setting attributes such as banned, bounced, moderators, etc.? ? But I cannot filter to locate moderated members (group setting overrides.)

Is this a #BUG or am I missing something?

Is there any other filter that should be added?

thx
Ken

开云体育

Erynn,

I think Ken hit it on the head; I wouldn't worry too much about this, provided your subgroup is genuinely discussing something vs promoting it, and it really does come down to concise rules and their application, to keep folks in line and keep the peace.

You are (kinda) right insofar that (some of) the rules are (somewhat) "vague" but that's by design; there is no practical way one can create an explicit list that accounts for everything that is and is not allowed in such a wildly-diverse universe that GIO is.

Don't forget there's some grey area in terms of the actual usage reality in this universe; e.g., "No Pornography, adult content, or nudity".? I guarantee you there is plenty of "pornography", i.e. adult content, or nudity being shared daily in the form of written or meme jokes, cartoons, attached images/scans of nude playboy centerfolds, nude calendar pics, etc; all one needs is a private group and a closed circle/group of like-minded people.? Or "Groups that share media or content whose distribution would be in violation of copyright law"; pfft, I again guarantee you that there are plenty of groups where folks share scanned copyrighted material, albeit for research or assistance purposes, but sometimes to a degree that's skirting -and in some cases technically breaking- copyright laws.? Model-building and similar groups do this a lot, I belong to a few of those groups and I know!? Or "Groups that are designed strictly to use the Groups.io directory as an advertisement for something other than the group itself", I bet there are groups that are cleverly (and carefully) using the group for advertising and profiting purposes, probably seriously-skirting or even crossing the boundary line, and they haven't been caught yet.

I also suspect that, while Mark more than likely does have some active auditing processes to catch blatantly-obvious violations, something like a specific keyword filter could return a ton of messages and I bet he has better things to do that going through each message to determine if it's a genuine discussion vs a promoting message; I mean a search for the word "qanon" for example in all of GIO's message archives would return a ton of messages, most -if not all- innocent messages that just used the word in some innocent context.? I highly doubt GIO has AI filtering/auditing code like (or to the extend of) FB or Tweeter does, but I could be wrong.

I don't know what the process is when someone reports a group but I'd think that, at the very least, nothing happens to the group itself for now, at the very worst, the group gets locked and hidden temporarily, until Mark looks into the report.? If the report was malicious, i.e. someone did it out of spite or to cause trouble, I'd think the group would be reinstated with no problems, and then it would be up to the mods to unleash their wrath on the person who caused this (unnecessary) trouble.? So like Shal suggested, make the rules (and consequences of not following them) crystal clear to the members.? Then moderate the group and discussion and you'll be fine.

Cheers,
Christos

On 03/01/2021 22:23, Mark Murphy wrote:

I’m proposing this topic for members to share suggestions with the wider forum here. I suggest we concentrate on practical methods owners and members could use.

I'd like to comment on the practical side of things. Let's accept that this pricing change means that most groups that choose to use Groups.io will eventually become paying groups, and therefore their founders have to consider this pretty much from the beginning of the group's running.

(Perhaps GMF should make this clear as a best practise: if you don't intend to convert to a paying group, and you expect that your group might exceed 75 members at some time, rather go with Google Groups.)

$220 per year is for a premium group of any size (including 20, 50 or 100 members), but a prudent group owner might decide to upgrade by the time his group has about 75 members. And although $220 equates to 55c per member if you have 400 members or more, $220 is more like $2.50 per member by the time the group decides to upgrade.

A good idea would be to charge your members $2.50 per year from the start. This would help grow a bit of a buffer initially and it would help users get into the habit of paying for the subscription.

However, one must not forget that members who do not pay can also contribute to the group in various ways (even if they never post anything, their presence has a positive effect.) For this reason I think it may be better for many types of groups that some members subsidize others. In other words, some members will be paying e.g. $5 per year and others will be allowed to pay nothing.

This is great in theory, but the problem becomes: how to convince paying members that it's worth paying. Not all group owners would want to spend their time figuring out ways to come up with special content that paying members may be willing to pay for. The ideal, I think, is that paying members pay voluntarily (for the good of the group), but not all paying members may be willing to do that indefinitely.

One tactic may be to state that long-time members should pay, while members who have only recently joined are allowed to participate for free. In other words, if you discover after a year or two that you like being a member of the group, then you must start paying for it.

Precisely how the donations or subscriptions are gathered would be up to the group owner and members. Ideally, the group owner would figure out a number of ways of accepting payments (add this to the GMF wiki) and then just accept payments like that. PayPal, Stripe, direct transfer, coupons (you know, the type that scammers use) etc.

Something else is important: how to ensure that donations are safe from dishonest group owners. And: what are the tax implications for group owners to be sitting on a bunch of money for a number of years until the group goes premium.

Samuel

On 4 Jan 2021 at 18:54, Shal Farley wrote:

Ken,

> ... but if an owner uses his/her own bank account to collect money for
> a "donation" to GROUPS.IO wouldn't he/she be liable for income taxes
> on that money?

This concern was raised in the beta "Pricing Changes" topic. And is a
part of my motivation for the "Simplified Donation feature #suggestion":


I'm also not a tax accountant, but I believe that (at least in the U.S.)
the answer is no. But (strangely) the giver may be required report it if
it exceeds a substantial exclusion per recipient.

In UK the answer is yes. I am a (long retired) tax accountant (among other
things).

Jim Fisher

One approach to paying for a group is to set it up as a business run by the group owner. I write books and make a little money at it. When I sold my first book I had my tax accountant set up a writing business for me. He designed books for the business (actually a spreadsheet) in which I record income and expenses for the business. That simple spreadsheet is all there is to it. No LLC or other business entity. So simple he just threw it in it as part of doing our taxes.

Some years, the writing makes a little, most years, it breaks even or loses some. The years it loses, the loss decreases my taxes slightly. The years it profits, I pay more taxes. Also only slightly.

I suspect the same could be done for operating a group. It's simple and a lot less trouble than establishing and maintaining a 501(c)(3) non-profit. Your members could not claim their membership as a charitable donation, but in my experience, charitable donations have to be substantial before they affect your taxes. Unless you plan on making money off your group for a charitable purpose, rather than just paying groups.io fees, I doubt that establishing a 501(c)(3) would be worth the trouble. If Mark ever wants proof that you are not running a group for profit, showing him your books ought to do it. If you do show a profit, more power to you!

This is just my personal experience. I'm not a lawyer or a registered accountant, so don't take my word for it.
Best, Marv

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For what it's worth:

I disagree with your prise that the rules are vague.? You have to parse the clauses.? There's a very clear difference between members openly "discussing" Pizzagate, and the group itself's?purpose being "dedicated to promoting" Pizzagate.?

There's no confusing those two unless the group itself is "promoting" and is indeed attempting to disguise it as "discussing."? Moderating the posts would in itself demonstrate that it is openly discussing, not promoting (ass/u/ing that the moderation is leaning toward the truth and not fiction.)

No one has any right not to be censured on a private chat or email group or media platform. It pertains to government control.? If a member is off-base as to the group owners' rules, and the posting is controlled (moderated, censured, whatever you want to call it,) then too damn bad.? Either conform to the rules or pack your bags.? Start your own discussion on Parler.? Newspapers censure every minute -- editors control which off-base and whacko 'letters to the editor' get printed and which do not.? No one has a Constitutional right to have nonsense and hate and outright lies spewed froth without repercussions.? That only protected speech in the committees and subcommittees of Congress hearings!!

It seems to me that the group owners need to tighten and narrow down whatever rules for the subgroup, rather than expect GIO to do the hard work.? ?Post the Webster definitions of "promote" vs "discuss" in the subgroup rules (with examples if appropriate) and enforce them, with an explanation if necessary.? Moderating is like parenting, or at least what parenting used to be.

On 04/01/2021 07:24, Shal Farley wrote:

Mark has ruled out the use of donations to support Groups.io itself (I think that's what he meant) but I'm still hopeful that he'll implement features to make it easier for group owners to use donations from group members to make the group's plan payments.

I'm not a lawyer, nor an accountant.

Soliciting donations can be a minefield.
One issue is having the appropriate licenses to solicit donations.
Taxes are a second issue.

I've forgotten the court case citation. A church run afoul of the county ordinance on soliciting donations, by not having the appropriate license. That the soliciting of donations was confined to passing the collection plate during the church service was irrelevant.

jonathon

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