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Re: Two groups interacting when a subgroup is NOT the answer?

 

Deborah,

So if I understand correctly, a group CANNOT see a subgroup's
archives - or, in fact, any message that the subgroup sends solely to
the subgroup. I've drawn a little schematic (attached) just to make
That's controlled by a Privacy option available in the subgroup Settings:

o Listed in parent group, publicly viewable archives
o Listed in parent group, archives viewable by parent group members
o Listed in parent group, archives viewable by subgroup members only
o Not listed in parent group, archives viewable by subgroup members only

Next question, then: can I take an existing stand-alone group
("bird") and turn it into the subgroup of a new group ("chicken")?
Not by any means that I'm aware of. But you could inquire of [email protected] - Mark may be able to do behind-the-scenes magic to make that happen.

If yes, then the only thing my bird members would have to understand
is that when they want to speak of chickens, they have to send to the
larger chicken group; when they want to talk about eagles or
penguins, they send to the bird group.
Correct, but note that both the email and web address format will change - groups with subgroups, and the subgroups in them, have what's called subdomain addressing style. In that style there is a name that goes with all of the groups, plus a name for the parent group and a name for each subgroup.

So you might have:

chickens @ avian.groups.io (the parent group)
birds @ avian.groups.io (the subgroup)

The chicken group, on the other hand, ALWAYS sends to the chicken
group.
Correct. If they sent a message to the bird group that message would be treated as being sent by a non-member (rejected or moderated).

Bird members, on the other hand, are also members of the parent chicken group, so they can send as members to either bird or chicken.

In fact, they don't even know that the bird group exists, right?
Depends, see the subgroup's Privacy option, above.

However, any chicken members familiar with groups.io will know from the address format that there must be (or have been) at least one subgroup within the avian subdomain of groups.io.

Also, if you allow chicken group members to see the member directory for the chicken group, the bird group members will be among them.

Apologies for the extended animal metaphor. The real purpose of these two groups isn't half as interesting or picturesque.
Mundane is ok.

My PTA group (and its subgroups) are pretty utilitarian, but it has been very handy to have subgroup lists restricted to active volunteers, special projects, PTA board members, teachers, the school administration, and so forth.

Shal
Re: Two groups interacting when a subgroup is NOT the answer?

 

I'm going to have to change the subject line of this thread, clearly! A subgroup IS the answer! Thank you, both Duane and Shal.

So if I understand correctly, a group CANNOT see a subgroup's archives - or, in fact, any message that the subgroup sends solely to the subgroup. I've drawn a little schematic (attached) just to make sure I've gotten it right.

Next question, then: can I take an existing stand-alone group ("bird") and turn it into the subgroup of a new group ("chicken")? If yes, then the only thing my bird members would have to understand is that when they want to speak of chickens, they have to send to the larger chicken group; when they want to talk about eagles or penguins, they send to the bird group. The chicken group, on the other hand, ALWAYS sends to the chicken group. In fact, they don't even know that the bird group exists, right?

Apologies for the extended animal metaphor. The real purpose of these two groups isn't half as interesting or picturesque.
Thanks again. -D
Re: Easy instructions for new mdmbers to create passwords?

 

Shal -
I just transferred a group that contains a lot of older guys. They're at least marginally computer literate, but not real sure of themselves. These are important members because these are the ones with the historical knowledge and the stories to tell, so I don't want to lose them. To that end I've created a detailed step-by-step process to log into the web page and set a new password for the first time. I'll include them following this note. I have one member who's tried to get logged in several times, but he says when he clicks on the link, he always winds up back on the main page (the elephants). He understands the immediacy issue, and responds as soon as he gets the login message. I'm suspecting he's having some kind of delay so that he's not opening the link until after the Cinderella half hour has expired.

Has anyone else run into this? Does anyone have any ideas about this. I thought about taking this to Mark, but I thought I'd air the problem here first to see if anyone had any ideas.

Dano

Below are the instructions he's working from:

1) Go to .

2) Click on the blue ''Log in'' box in the upper right.

3) Enter your email address in the ''Email Address'' box. *** DO NOT enter any password!! ***

4) Click on "Forget your password?" under it.

=[ The next three steps may or may not occur. If they do, just work through them. If they don't, you'll be taken to 5). ]=

4a) This will open a new window titled ''Send Log In Link''.

4b) Enter your email address

4c) Then click ''Email link to log in''.

5) That will give you a message that says ''An email has been sent to you with a link to log into your account.''

6) Close the window and groups.io.

7) Check your email right away. Within about five minutes or so you should get a message titled ''Link to log into Groups.io''. If you don't find it after 10 minutes, check your spam filter.

8) Open the message and click on the link. NOTE: The link is only good for a half hour. If you get the message but it's been too long and the link has expired you can just start again at 1).

9) The link will take you to your subscriptions page at groups.io.

10) On the same page, near the right end of the blue bar is your username or email address. Click on the down triangle following it.

11) This will open up a menu with your email address, the option ''Account'' and the option ''Logout''.

12) Click on ''Account'', and you will be taken to your master Login page. Your email address will show in the ''Email'' box. Below it is a ''Password'' box. Enter a password of your choice. It must be at least six characters long. Try to make a good password, and WRITE IT DOWN or otherwise remember it.

13) Then click on ''Change Password''. You have now set your password, and you should remain logged in for a number of days unless you log out.

14) If you get logged out, you can log in by clicking the ''Log in'' box to the right on the blue bar and putting in your email address and password that you wrote down.
Re: Two groups interacting when a subgroup is NOT the answer?

 

Deborah,

I think under your scenario, chicken would be able to access its
subgroup's (bird's) archives, yes?
No, not if the bird subgroup has its archive access limited to bird members.

I would imagine this need comes up fairly often - how have other
people solved it? It's complicated, because it's an actual discussion
list, not just a notice distribution list, which means the posting
has to work both ways.
Presumably not both ways, that would mean everything posted to bird would be available to chicken.

I've heard of people using an email account to automatically forward messages from one group to another (using a filter in the email). One needs to be careful not to create a loop when doing this.

Shal
Re: Two groups interacting when a subgroup is NOT the answer?

 

Hi Deborah,

We don't want the non-members to have access to the bird group
archives that might discuss those non-chicken birds. But we want to
keep adding the discussions about chickens to the bird group's
archive.
The only way for non-members to (directly) contribute to a group's messages archive is check the "Allow Non Subscribers to Post" box in the group settings. Messages sent to the group's posting address by non-members will automatically be placed in the moderation queue rather than rejected.

A disadvantage is that, as non-members, they don't receive anything back from the group - not even replies to their own posts unless the person replying takes the effort to CC them or to address them rather than the group. So this isn't a particularly convenient way to hold a discussion with those non-members.

A subgroup is out of the question, yes?
Maybe not. As Duane suggested you could have a main group that is open to more people than your restrictive bird group. But even so, the archive of the main group is separate from that of the bird group.

On the other hand, every member of the bird group is per force a member of the main group, so that isn't necessarily a problem. Members of the bird group can hold private conversations in that group, or can converse with everyone in the main group.

I think my options are either:
1) Create a chicken group that can communicate with the bird group.
This would mean both groups would have to be able to send to each
other, so that when bird group posts a thread about chicken feed, for
example, chicken group can receive the thread and reply to it. And
vice versa. The threads would be archived in BOTH groups.
There's no way to make an automatic connection of that sort between groups. Someone posting a message (or replying) who wants it to go to both groups must ensure that both groups are included in the TO or CC (or BCC) fields of the message. That's possible when posting or replying by email, but not when using the groups' web "New Topic" or "Reply" features.

or 2) Create an overarching group - uberbirds, say. Have that group
be able to send and receive mail from/to both bird group and chicken
group.
Same problem. The uber group would have its own archive, separate from the other two groups.

But, as in Duane's case, if the uber group were the main group and the bird and chicken groups subgroups of uber, then members of both the bird and chicken groups would per force be members of the uber group. In this arrangement people can talk privately about chickens, or birds, in their own subgroups, or post to uber to involve everyone.

I looked into hashtags as an alternate solution, but it doesn't
appear to me that an administrator can mute threads for members.
Nope. That's not going to help.

Shal
Re: Two groups interacting when a subgroup is NOT the answer?

 

Duane, thanks for your suggestion. I had considered it, but there's the matter of the bird group's existing archives - eight years of material about swallows and bluejays, etc. We need to keep those archives accessible to bird, but inaccessible to chicken. I think under your scenario, chicken would be able to access its subgroup's (bird's) archives, yes?

Any other thoughts? I would imagine this need comes up fairly often - how have other people solved it? It's complicated, because it's an actual discussion list, not just a notice distribution list, which means the posting has to work both ways.

Thanks again,
Deborah
Re: what's up with this? "left via web," "resumed membership via web"

J_Catlady
 

Duane,

But the "goodbye" email doesn't include (or isn't supposed to include) a "resume membership" link. I tested it last night, and it only includes options to ?either *cancel* the resignation or go to Special Notices. When I tested those (using a test member), no "left via web" and "resumed via web" were logged.

Furthermore, we have now received the member's response to the "sorry to see you go - please let us know why you left, and our condolences if your cat has passed" message: she told us her cat has died. So she thinks she's left the group. However, I checked the membership and she's still there.?

I'm going to report a bug.

J?
Re: Two groups interacting when a subgroup is NOT the answer?

 

Although it may be confusing, you could use a subgroup. The main group would be the less restrictive one (chicken), then the one with limited access (bird) would be the subgroup. You'd need to do it this way because you have to be a member of the main group before joining the subgroup. If you reversed it, the 'chicken' members could see all posts. You could limit who would be able to join the subgroup.

I don't think there's a way to 'link' 2 groups the way you want to.

Duane
Re: what's up with this? "left via web," "resumed membership via web"

 

I haven't tested it, but the only explanation I can think of is:

1. They accidentally left the group while on the site.
2. An email was sent (goodbye?) to let them know and it included the "resume" link.
3. They resumed membership.

I've found a few of these on my groups, but never paid much attention since membership is automatically approved. If this is what happened, I'd hope that the resume link would expire within a 'short' time. Even when they are removed for a spam report, it says "resumed membership via web" when they use the link.

Duane
Two groups interacting when a subgroup is NOT the answer?

 

Hi, folks. I'm new here - thrilled to be using groups.io.
A group I administer needs to be able to discuss one topic with people who are not group members. So - imagine it's a group about birds. It needs to communicate with non-members about chickens (but not finches, turkeys, or sparrows). We don't want the non-members to have access to the bird group archives that might discuss those non-chicken birds. But we want to keep adding the discussions about chickens to the bird group's archive. A subgroup is out of the question, yes?
I think my options are either:
1) Create a chicken group that can communicate with the bird group. This would mean both groups would have to be able to send to each other, so that when bird group posts a thread about chicken feed, for example, chicken group can receive the thread and reply to it. And vice versa. The threads would be archived in BOTH groups.
or
2) Create an overarching group - uberbirds, say. Have that group be able to send and receive mail from/to both bird group and chicken group.

In either case, it's the same problem: can one group receive email from another, without being a subgroup? I looked into hashtags as an alternate solution, but it doesn't appear to me that an administrator can mute threads for members.
I've scoured the archives for THIS group for hints, but I don't see any. Thoughts? Many thanks in advance.
-Deborah
what's up with this? "left via web," "resumed membership via web"

J_Catlady
 

Our group is restricted, meaning that membership requires approval. Sometimes we get someone who shows up in the logs as "was removed after marking a message and spam" and then "rejoined" (after being offered the automatic link to rejoin). However, today we have a member logged as "left via web" and then, immediately afterwards, "resumed membership via web." Nothing about marking a message as spam, nothing about automatic removal. How on earth can this be? If the member left voluntarily, they would have to apply for membership again to get back in. I haven't corresponded yet with the member. I plan to ask them what happened, but I wanted to get some insight into this first. Is it a bug that I should report?

J
Facebook integrations

 

Has anyone else noticed that Facebook?integrations are not working? I know that there is a warning from a while back:

Facebook page integration is not currently working. Facebook disabled the API we were using and we have not had a chance to investigate whether their new API will work for us. Until that time, adding new Facebook integrations has been disabled.

but our integration?is not new and was working fine until March 28th. ?Did something change?

--
-LeeAnne

?Archivist
Re: Like a message - purpose?

 

Ginny,

... can someone help me with what "liking" a message does? Other than
showing when messages are being read on a group's page, is there any
other purpose/use or are there stats somewhere ...
There is a long-standing wish-list item in beta@ referred to as the "notification overhaul". There are a lot of specific ideas wrapped up in that concept, but the gist of it is that there should be a more complete set of notifications that members can choose to receive on web or email or both. And a larger list for moderators/owners as well.

The "like" button is a specific case where notifications would be useful. Some members would like to be notified when someone like's their post. Others might like a notification when someone likes anyone's post.

On the web, the notifications could take the form of a button with a count of new (since last time you looked) notifications. Clicking the button would open up a list of these notifications. That proposed form would be a lot like the Notifications globe that appears in the logo banner on Facebook.

In email the notifications would be simple emails describing what happened and providing a link to it (where appropriate). It would probably make sense to offer choices like immediate notification (per event) versus one message per hour, or per day (i.e. notification digests).

But none of that has been nailed down in any detail. It has been a conversation with a variety of ideas presented in several topics over several months.

Bottom line: I think it would take a notification system of some sort to fulfill the hope that the Like button could become a commonly used alternative to "me too" postings.

Shal
Re: Like a message - purpose?

 

Hi Duane,

Once you like a message the button changes to unlike :-)

I and other mods use like to hopefully encourage members to read a post. ?Members who look up to mods probably have tendency to read the posts they liked.?
--
-LeeAnne

?Archivist
Re: AOL truncates message titles, causing lack of threading

 

On 31 Mar 2017 at 11:03, Shal Farley wrote:

I can't see any justification for shortening it to 35 characters. I'm
surprised that isn't seen by Pegusus' user community as a serious flaw.
Yeah, that would be bad if Pegasus acted like AOL by truncating subjects,
but the subject shortening happens only in the display of subjects in a
folder. The actual Subject line remains intact, and the entire Subject is
used properly when replying or forwarding.

I don't know the actual limit for Pegasus subject handling, but I have a
message in my folder that has 133 characters in the Subject, so the limit is
at least that many.

--
Jim
Poston@...

<< CPE1704TKS 'The only winning move is not to play.'-Joshua >>
Re: Like a message - purpose?

 

Ah, that is a touch of brilliance, thanks for the thought. I'm also glad to know that I'm ?not missing something with it.

Danke vel...
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Re: Editing messages

Brian Vogel
 

It would be possible, but it has been rejected in the past, to handle messages posted via the web interface in the same way that Gmail can handle e-mail sent by its web interface and hold it for a certain number of seconds after the "Send" button is hit so that it could be recalled if considered necessary by its author for whatever reason.

It should, at least in theory, be able to do a comparison to an edited post to determine whether there is "real content" change versus "correcting typo" change to decide whether it needs to go out again to the membership as a whole. ?I would be curious to know if there already exist "fuzzy logic" programs to make just such a determination.

I have also shared Mr. King's feeling that, if a post does not warrant deletion, it should not be subject to editing by moderators. ?Even if information is 100% wrong, incorrect, whatever the response to that should be a message from someone stating so. ?If that someone is the moderator then they can even use the special notice feature if they so wish. ?There are, however, clear philosophical splits along many lines in answering the question, "What is the role of a moderator?" ?To me moderation of a group where all posts are not moderated [which is a different animal] has a couple of really basic functions, but no more:

1. ?Suppressing name-calling, flame wars ?and the like.

2. ?Banning users who insist on continuing to name-call, attack other members (and I do mean attack the member - not ideas. ?It's fine to call an idea expressed by someone as stupid but not OK to call them stupid), instigate flame wars, etc.

Others disagree strongly. ?I also think that public conversations with regard to moderation policy in general - which is most often triggered by specific examples - among the membership should be allowed. ?Castigating the moderators about "done deals" should not. ?Moderation policy should be directly influenced by the expressed wishes of those who are willing to go on the public record. ?"Influenced by" and "accepted wholesale" are not the same thing.

Moderators, except when exercising the duties of the role, are just regular members of a group and nothing more. ?I've seen way too many groups slowly strangled to death because of what I call "martinet style" moderation and the cultivation of fear of the moderators and group owners by design.
Re: Password usage

 

Thanks, Frances. ?I had, in fact, checked the wiki but I found it confusing. ?After your response I logged out then went to the home page to see what it looked like and the wiki made more sense. ?I even had a log-in link sent to me so I would see what it looked like. ?What I was really wondering was whether password creation was part of the joining process (an option offered at some point) or whether the extra step described in the wiki is necessary. ?I'm assuming the extra step is necessary.
Re: Has the GMF Yahoo group Migrated to io?

Judy Houser
 

Hi Shal,

Thank you for the explanation. I haven't use the io group much at all. What's the simplest way to log in to see my io status. I'm currently using my gmail account. Can I go into my preferences and change it to a Yahoo account?

Great! My email account is @, so I don't need to be concerned.

Judy

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:
Judy,

In answer to your Subject: No.

I consider the GMF here on a "sister" group to the one on - both are about best practices for group management, but each focusing on its own platform.

So I've deliberately not transferred any members or messages or other content from the yahoo group to this one.

There may be some content, concerning member management or other topics that are independent of hosting platform, which would ideally be duplicated in both groups for the benefit of both communities. I've not made an effort to curate such content across groups; and I think I'd have to be careful about citing messages so as not to create confusion.

> My real question has to do with the ATT Yahoo email accounts. How can
> I find out if it affects me. I don't know who hosts my Yahoo email
> account.

If the address is @ you're fine (hosted by Yahoo). Likewise @ and @.

If your address is @att or @sbcglobal, or maybe a few others, then you should have been notified if you are affected.

Shal
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