I found a way to accomplish it that wasn't too bad. On each page of users, I right clicked on any in the NC state and opened their account info up in new tabs. ?Then I went through each of those and sent the confirmation email again and closed their tab. That let me keep my place in the list and know what I had and hand't handled. Not stellar, but it worked. Only time will tell if any of those people actually confirm and participate or not. --jeffp
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We have started an attempt at this and it is public: /g/LWIdeas/wiki Phil Johnson 2370
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Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam
Sharon, But there were never subscribers unsubscribed on Yahoo. My Yahoo list
was almost 3000 subscribers too. As I've said, this "FBL" protocol invented by the email services is relatively new - much newer than the "Neo" redesign of Yahoo Groups. So my guess is that there's no one left at Yahoo to implement their side of it. The "one-click" proposal, if and when adopted, is unlikely to be implemented at Y!Groups either - unless Y!Groups undergoes a revival. Meanwhile the penalty for not participating in the FBL protocol appears to be that group messages get delayed or rejected ("bounced") with higher probability than they would if the email list is a "good citizen" (in the eyes of the email service). Now that is one place where the size of the service (not necessarily the individual group) might make a difference. AOL and other email services might carve out policy exceptions for Google Groups, Y!Groups, and other well-known services. On the other hand, reports of delays or missing messages seem to be endemic to Y!Groups. It could be that Y!Groups are in fact suffering from the email services' "penalty" for sending spam. But as I think about it hasn¡¯t happened since shortly after I
transferred the list. The situation may have improved. Or the members may have learned "don't do that" or may have switched email services. But I¡¯m thinking of transferring other lists on which this would be a
problem. More important that people not miss messages. In that case Groups.io is doing the right thing by attempting to maintain a good reputation in the eyes of the email services. Or put the other way: better that the members learn "don't do that", or choose a better email service, than have everyone suffer from sporadic message delay and loss. Shal
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Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam
On Jan 26, 2017, at 11:46 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 08:31 am, Shal Farley wrote:
I've no reason to believe that AOL does not treat other email list services similarly. But there were never subscribers unsubscribed on Yahoo. My Yahoo list was almost 3000 subscribers too. But as I think about it hasn¡¯t happened since shortly after I transferred the list. But I¡¯m thinking of transferring other lists on which this would be a problem. More important that people not miss messages. I think there were some reports several months ago about it doing that to other services - making users explicitly log on to retrieve messages (rather than actually sending them), etc. This is what AOL used to do. They refused to deliver messages one large list for mystery readers. AOL readers had to use a link to read them somewhere on the AOL site. (There was no other website.) Sharon
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Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 08:31 am, Shal Farley wrote: I've no reason to believe that AOL does not treat other email list services similarly. I think there were some reports several months ago about it doing that to other services - making users explicitly log on to retrieve messages (rather than actually sending them), etc. J?
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Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam
J, Our group "officially" tells members not to use an aol address for
Groups.io. Most of the aol members have created gmail accounts by
this point, but a couple of them continue to use aol. They're missing
messages (as can be seen from their email delivery logs) but they
don't seem to care. According to what Mark said (much earlier), he suspects that refusing delivery of messages from a mailing list is AOL's way of "punishing" email list services that don't act upon FBL reports. That's why he resumed unsubscribing members in response to those reports. The problem is that the AOLs refusal to deliver does not seem to be tied to a specific member or a specific group, but appears to arbitrarily affect all messages from Groups.io. It is as if the probability that a message will be refused is in some sense proportional to the "spammy-ness" reputation of the list service overall. I don't know if the situation has improved, but Mark complained at the time that he was unable to get any guidance from AOL as to how they expect him to interpret and respond to the FBL reports, and what the consequences are if he does or doesn't. Shal
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Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam
Sharon, The only solution was for her to get an gmail email account. But we
have at least 7 other members with AOL email addresses so it must
have been some setting on her account. I think part of the confusion may be that just having an AOL address doesn't tell us which user interface the person is using. For example, I'm using a gmail address here, but I'm not using Gmail's web interface. So a difference in behavior may be tied in part to a difference in how the person is accessing their email. She said she had not marked any message spam and didn¡¯t have a
program that automatically moved messages to a spam folder. She may not have had "a program" to do that, but email services will automatically place incoming messages into the Spam folder if their software determines that the message is likely to be spam. So the question isn't really about whether she marked anything, but whether any group messages had been placed (by whatever means) into her spam folder. If so, they need to be explicitly marked by her as "not spam" in order to avoid the FBL (feedback loop) system, which leads to their unsubscription. By the way, I'm not saying that this is how things should work, I'm saying that this is my understanding from what I've read. I don't use AOL so I don't have any first-hand experience with their user interfaces. If I had things my way only a user's explicit action to unsubscribe would cause an unsubscription. I think this is a major negative for Groups.io. I think it is a major negative for AOL, and any other email service that uses such a mechanism based on automatic spam detection. If this is not done with Yahoo or Google, does it relate to size of
the service? Like how many members do we have to have before it stops. I've no reason to believe that AOL does not treat other email list services similarly. The question is whether the list service is cooperating with AOL (and other email services) in this matter. My guess is "no" for Yahoo Groups simply because they had stopped all development for Yahoo Groups before the feedback loop mechanism was created. I don't know what the situation is with Google groups or other list services. It also gives me the creeps that a service is monitoring which
messages I mark as spam. Groups.io (or other list services) don't and can't do that on their own. Groups.io is responding to FBL messages from AOL (and other email services) which say, in effect, "this person marked a message from you as spam - take care of it". I haven't read anything about it lately, but I still have hope that the "one-click" proposal will be adopted (by both email services and list services), replacing the FBL mechanism. Of course I'm hoping that email services like AOL implement one-click in such a way that its function is obvious to the user and requires an explicit action - avoiding the unintentional unsubscription problem introduced by the FBL mechanism. Shal
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Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam
Our group "officially" tells members not to use an aol address for Groups.io. Most of the aol members have created gmail accounts by this point, but a couple of them continue to use aol. They're missing messages (as can be seen from their email delivery logs) but they don't seem to care.?
J
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 7:56 AM, Sharon Villines <sharon@...> wrote: I had a member that was constantly getting unsubscribed by AOL. She would constantly resubscribe. One day I received 12 automatic emails from her account.
The only solution was for her to get an gmail email account. But we have at least 7 other members with AOL email addresses so it must have been some setting on her account. She said she had not marked any message spam and didn¡¯t have a program that automatically moved messages to a spam folder.
I think this is a major negative for Groups.io. If this is not done with Yahoo or Google, does it relate to size of the service? Like how many members do we have to have before it stops.
It also gives me the creeps that a service is monitoring which messages I mark as spam.
Sharon.
> On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Xaun Loc < xaunloc@...> wrote:
>
> I understand what you are saying, and almost understand Jeff, but...? if a group member marks ONE message as spam, then perhaps education is worth an attempt -- if it happens again the only response needs to be banning the member from that group, AND ALL OTHER GROUPS, with no third chances - this has to be a Two-Strikes-You're-Out
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Shal Farley
> Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 19:09 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [GMF] Are other groups seeing lots of possibly spammy registration attempts? #membership
>
> Xaun, Lena,
>
>> Absolutely ban them!
>
> I understand your point, but Jeff's purpose seems to be quite the
> opposite: to help those people remain members.
>
>> Group members need to understand that they must NEVER mark a group
>> message as spam, even if it is spam. If a group owner
>> can't/won't/doesn't control spam, then leave the group, but don't
>> destroy a group.
>
> In its way, it is worse than destroying the group.
>
> With many email services one user marking messages as spam can adversely
> affect the reputation of the list service as well. And that makes it
> more likely that members of other groups using that service will find
> their group messages in the spam folder, or not delivered at all.
>
> Some of the email services understand this problem, and are trying to
> push forward a protocol feature ("one-click") and corresponding User
> Interface changes intended to help users make the right choice
> (unsubscribe, not spam) but I don't know if the members Jeff's talking
> about use one of those email services, nor if the changes would help
> those members.
>
> Shal
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam
I had a member that was constantly getting unsubscribed by AOL. She would constantly resubscribe. One day I received 12 automatic emails from her account.
The only solution was for her to get an gmail email account. But we have at least 7 other members with AOL email addresses so it must have been some setting on her account. She said she had not marked any message spam and didn¡¯t have a program that automatically moved messages to a spam folder.
I think this is a major negative for Groups.io. If this is not done with Yahoo or Google, does it relate to size of the service? Like how many members do we have to have before it stops.
It also gives me the creeps that a service is monitoring which messages I mark as spam.
Sharon.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 26, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Xaun Loc <xaunloc@...> wrote:
I understand what you are saying, and almost understand Jeff, but... if a group member marks ONE message as spam, then perhaps education is worth an attempt -- if it happens again the only response needs to be banning the member from that group, AND ALL OTHER GROUPS, with no third chances - this has to be a Two-Strikes-You're-Out
-----Original Message----- From: Shal Farley
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 19:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Are other groups seeing lots of possibly spammy registration attempts? #membership
Xaun, Lena,
Absolutely ban them! I understand your point, but Jeff's purpose seems to be quite the
opposite: to help those people remain members.
Group members need to understand that they must NEVER mark a group
message as spam, even if it is spam. If a group owner
can't/won't/doesn't control spam, then leave the group, but don't
destroy a group. In its way, it is worse than destroying the group.
With many email services one user marking messages as spam can adversely
affect the reputation of the list service as well. And that makes it
more likely that members of other groups using that service will find
their group messages in the spam folder, or not delivered at all.
Some of the email services understand this problem, and are trying to
push forward a protocol feature ("one-click") and corresponding User
Interface changes intended to help users make the right choice
(unsubscribe, not spam) but I don't know if the members Jeff's talking
about use one of those email services, nor if the changes would help
those members.
Shal
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Taffman, I'm thinking of writing a Wiki page that introduced the new
functionality our users will experience that they didn't have in Yahoo.
Before I reinvent the wheel, has anyone done this or any kind of user
guide that I can plagiarise? That's one intent I have with GMF's Wiki - but haven't gotten around to writing too much. You're free to plagiarize / adapt what you find there. As a GMF member you are even more welcome to add to it or improve it! If you write some introductory information for your groups please consider contributing a copy here. Note: GMF's wiki is public, so: a) Be careful what you put there (e.g. no email addresses or other personal information). b) You may freely give out links to those pages: anyone can read them without being a GMF member. Shal
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?I have just migrated our Yahoo Group to Groups.io and I must say it was a quick and painless migration, so quodos to the transfer team! I'm thinking of writing a Wiki page that introduced the new functionality our users will experience that they didn't have in Yahoo. Before I reinvent the wheel, has anyone done this or any kind of user guide that I can plagiarise?
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Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam
I understand what you are saying, and almost understand Jeff, but... if a group member marks ONE message as spam, then perhaps education is worth an attempt -- if it happens again the only response needs to be banning the member from that group, AND ALL OTHER GROUPS, with no third chances - this has to be a Two-Strikes-You're-Out
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: Shal Farley Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 19:09 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [GMF] Are other groups seeing lots of possibly spammy registration attempts? #membership Xaun, Lena, Absolutely ban them! I understand your point, but Jeff's purpose seems to be quite the opposite: to help those people remain members. Group members need to understand that they must NEVER mark a group
message as spam, even if it is spam. If a group owner
can't/won't/doesn't control spam, then leave the group, but don't
destroy a group. In its way, it is worse than destroying the group. With many email services one user marking messages as spam can adversely affect the reputation of the list service as well. And that makes it more likely that members of other groups using that service will find their group messages in the spam folder, or not delivered at all. Some of the email services understand this problem, and are trying to push forward a protocol feature ("one-click") and corresponding User Interface changes intended to help users make the right choice (unsubscribe, not spam) but I don't know if the members Jeff's talking about use one of those email services, nor if the changes would help those members. Shal
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Jeff, I was wrong. I tried to subsequently correct that. You can't use the checkbox. As Duane (or Shal? someone) said, you have to open each member's page and scroll to the bottom. J
Sent from my iPhone
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Show quoted text
On Jan 25, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Jeff Powell < jrpstonecarver@...> wrote: J Catlady said: You can use the checkboxes and just do one action ("resend confirmation email") for all of them (it still requires scrolling through). That is what confused me. I'll go look at each one individually now, though that is HORRIBLY slow given we have well over 2000 members to scroll through. Thankfully most of the NC members are in the last 6 months or so, and the bulk of the membership came over with the transfer here.
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J Catlady said: You can use the checkboxes and just do one action ("resend confirmation email") for all of them (it still requires scrolling through). That is what confused me. I'll go look at each one individually now, though that is HORRIBLY slow given we have well over 2000 members to scroll through. Thankfully most of the NC members are in the last 6 months or so, and the bulk of the membership came over with the transfer here.
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Group storage in subgroups
Do the subgroups storage count as storage for the main group, or is it
the same storage all mixed together?
Donald
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Re: Are other groups seeing lots of possibly spammy registration attempts?
#membership
Xaun, Lena, Absolutely ban them! I understand your point, but Jeff's purpose seems to be quite the opposite: to help those people remain members. Group members need to understand that they must NEVER mark a group
message as spam, even if it is spam. If a group owner
can't/won't/doesn't control spam, then leave the group, but don't
destroy a group. In its way, it is worse than destroying the group. With many email services one user marking messages as spam can adversely affect the reputation of the list service as well. And that makes it more likely that members of other groups using that service will find their group messages in the spam folder, or not delivered at all. Some of the email services understand this problem, and are trying to push forward a protocol feature ("one-click") and corresponding User Interface changes intended to help users make the right choice (unsubscribe, not spam) but I don't know if the members Jeff's talking about use one of those email services, nor if the changes would help those members. Shal
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Re: Are other groups seeing lots of possibly spammy registration attempts?
#membership
in our group we have a couple of people who regularly mark
group messages as spam Ban them, please.
Absolutely ban them! Not only ban then, but share their information with other group owners. Group members need to understand that they must NEVER mark a group message as spam, even if it is spam. If a group owner can't/won't/doesn't control spam, then leave the group, but don't destroy a group.
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At the bottom of an NC member's page you'll see
"Approve Pending Sub, Reject Pending Sub, Save, Send Message, Ban, Send Confirmation Email, Cancel"
J
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote: On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 10:04 am, Jeff Powell wrote:
>
> cannot see what you're referring to.
>
You have to click on the person that is NC.? On the screen that opens, it will have the button at the bottom.? Unfortunately, you have to do one at a time.
Duane
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On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 10:04 am, Jeff Powell wrote:
cannot see what you're referring to.
You have to click on the person that is NC. On the screen that opens, it will have the button at the bottom. Unfortunately, you have to do one at a time. Duane
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Shal Farley
Frances
Taffman
Duane