David,

They do say you learn something new every day, so you have. :-)
...
Remember this is an announcement group, as that may make a difference.

Indeed. I didn't catch that.

I haven't worked with announcement groups (or at least not recently enough to remember) in either Y!Groups or Groups.io, and didn't anticipate that it would make a difference. But given your more detailed description, it apparently does.

Have you actually looked at the headers of the messages sent through
groups.io or Yahoo?

Yes, extensively. But apparently not from announcement groups.

Then at some stage, they changed the From: address to be some
convoluted version of the group e-mail address:

Yes, that's a DMARC-related change:


You may notice that Groups.io also changes From addresses, but only for certain sending domains (AOL, and Yahoo Mail among them, but not Gmail).
/static/help#dmarc

If there was a Reply-To: header in the message received by Groups,
that header was used instead of the above default one in the message
sent out to group members.

Interesting. I'll have to try that it my test groups (Yahoo and Groups.io). I initially thought you meant that you were using some setting within the group to apply these custom Reply-To fields. This may be the something new I learn.

I suspect this is actually a bug, and that probably the reason the
Reply-To: is being added because it is supposed to contain the address
from the incoming message's Reply-To:.

Sounds plausible.

I had thought the logic in Groups.io was to always insert a Reply-To matching the group's Reply To setting. But if that's not the case in announcement groups, and in particular if it is conditioned on the presence of an inbound Reply-To field then it seems reasonable that it should copy the field content.

I think reporting it to [email protected] would be the way to go with that.

So does that explain it enough for you? :-)

Yes, thank you!

Enough for me to want to go try it out in my test groups. Alas the work week is beginning, so I'm not sure when I'll get around to that. If you report it Mark may have it fixed before the weekend rolls around. ;-)

Shal


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My personal email domain is being hosted by Zoho.com.? I set up the DKIM records as they show.? For over a year it has been working just fine.? Around the end of May all emails from groups.io started bouncing.? I can send to my groups, but I do not get the message in my inbox.? All message from any group and from anyone bounce now.

I checked the DKIM records, and they are OK.? It appears to only be messages from groups.io.? I am getting email from everyone else OK.

Where can I look to try and figure out why?? I don't see anything helpful in the logs.? This is the only message I see and it is on every message.? "554 5.2.3 MailPolicy violation Error delivering to mailboxes".

I talked to Zoho, and they recommended setting my DKIM to "quarantine" instead of "temporary reject".? I just did that.? I also white listed groups.io.? I sent a test message and it didn't bounce this time.

I am not a fan of white listing!? Any suggestions or help on where to look wold be appreciated.

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 12:17 am, Heijo Alting wrote:

I know, I clicked on it, but it's still empty.

If it's empty, then you either have no transfers pending, or you are logged in under a different email address than you used when you tried this the last time. Is that a possibility?

Bruce?
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I don't think "the Yahoo behavior" exists as you've described it. Maybe if you can give some details that will help me understand what you did and what effect it had.

They do say you learn something new every day, so you have. :-) I have been using this for years in Yahoo, and it is extremely useful for saving the admin from having to forward lots of replies to someone else.

Remember this is an announcement group, as that may make a difference.

I send messages to the group address with my e-mail program. If I put a Reply-To: header in those messages, for Yahoo the message goes out to the group members with that Reply-To: header in it. For groups.io, it does not. But read on....

> In Groups.io, the Reply-To: seems to be stripped out of the message

members get.

Quite the contrary. Groups.io (and Y!Groups) inserts a Reply-To field in the header of every outbound message. The content of that field is determined by the "Reply To" selection you make in the Message Policies section of your group's Settings page.

Have you actually looked at the headers of the messages sent through groups.io or Yahoo? Note that this is as received by a group member, not what Yahoo or groups.io web interface shows.

Let me explain what is happening, starting with Yahoo. Again, remember that this is an announcement group, and that discussion groups may be different.

In the original Yahoo Groups, the sender's e-mail address was in the From: header and there was no Reply-To: header. If you replied to a message, it went to the From: address.

Then at some stage, they changed the From: address to be some convoluted version of the group e-mail address:

From: "Newcastle Club NewcastleClub989@... [Newcastle_Club_Members]" <Newcastle_Club_Members-noreply@...>

At the same time, they added a Reply-To: header for the actual sender's address (or the group address if it had been set up that way):

Reply-To: NewcastleClub989@...

If there was a Reply-To: header in the message received by Groups, that header was used instead of the above default one in the message sent out to group members.


From my investigation of groups.io messages, I think there is normally just the sender's address in the From: header and no Reply-To: header. Again, an announcement group!

However, if there was a Reply-To: header in the message as received by the group, a Reply-To: header is inserted with the sender's address, the same as the From: address. (The group is set up as reply to sender.) The actual address in the incoming message's Reply-To: is lost.

Adding a Reply-To: in this case seems to be unnecessary, since it is just duplicating the From: address.

I suspect this is actually a bug, and that probably the reason the Reply-To: is being added because it is supposed to contain the address from the incoming message's Reply-To:.

If the group is a discussion group, this may all be different, although it does not seem unreasonable in that case too for a Reply-To: header on an incoming message to be included in messages sent to group members.

So does that explain it enough for you? :-)

Cheers

David

David,

I have a couple of announcement groups where I send out messages from
other organisations.

I belatedly realized there's another interpretation of "where I send out". Do /you/ send these messages to the group's posting address from your email address (or on the web using your Yahoo Account to sign in to the group's pages?

Or do the other organizations send these messages to your group's posting address from their own email addresses, and/or using their own Yahoo Groups sign-in?

In the latter case the setting you're looking for is the one I named: chose "Sender" as your selection in the Reply To option in the Message Policies section of your group's Settings page.

Shal


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David,

In Yahoo Groups, I could put a Reply-To: header in the message I sent,
and when people replied, it would go to that address.

I thought I knew Y!Groups inside and out, but this is a new one on me. Unless you mean you were able to put that header field in the body of a message and have it work. Which would still surprise me.

In Groups.io, the Reply-To: seems to be stripped out of the message
members get.

Quite the contrary. Groups.io (and Y!Groups) inserts a Reply-To field in the header of every outbound message. The content of that field is determined by the "Reply To" selection you make in the Message Policies section of your group's Settings page.

Is there any way to get the Yahoo behaviour?

I don't think "the Yahoo behavior" exists as you've described it. Maybe if you can give some details that will help me understand what you did and what effect it had.

Shal


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I know, I clicked on it, but it's still empty.

Heijo

I have a couple of announcement groups where I send out messages from other organisations. I want replies to go directly to the other organisation, not to me as the sender. I do not want to have to forward dozens of messages that could have gone directly to them.

In Yahoo Groups, I could put a Reply-To: header in the message I sent, and when people replied, it would go to that address.

In Groups.io, the Reply-To: seems to be stripped out of the message members get.

Is there any way to get the Yahoo behaviour?

Jim,

Yes, I can just grab the files and beg forgiveness afterword but I was
trying to get permission before hand. That is the purpose of this
exercise.

Then strictly-speaking it isn't the owner's permission you need, it is that of the individual who uploaded each desired file. Which of course in some (many?, most?, all?) cases may be the same person as the owner.

And that of course is assuming that the person who uploaded the file holds the right to post its content. Which may not be the case for things like manuals and other literature about the subject product.

Though I do understand that gaining the Y!group owner's cooperation, or stepping into the role of moderator, would be a leg up on contacting the content owners.

I just found it very strange that there was no way to find out for
sure who the owners and moderators are (especially if the group was
orphaned years ago).

That's pretty much by design - and probably in keeping with the wishes of most group owners. Who wants random malcontents being able to find out how to contact you directly, especially for some group you stopped caring about years ago? Hence the -owner email address is the only official means of contact.

Notably that's true in Groups.io as well.

Shal


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Bob,

Just ran a count and there are over 10000 since early 2000s and it
seems that every one has their email address in plain sight at the end
where it says "posted by" followed by the email address.

Yahoo didn't start that until mid 2014, but it is a fair point - I forgot about that. Still, it doesn't help Jim P. unless he was keeping an email collection of message posts, which for some reason I felt he hadn't.

Also it looks as if anyone who joined with a non Yahoo email address
has their email address in plain view in the members' list that is
grabbed by the Chrome App.

Another good point.

Not just anyone with a non-Yahoo email address in a Y!group, I think that's a side-effect of the relatively new "I'd rather use my own email address" feature of the Yahoo account sign-up process.

I think that ends up having their email address as their Yahoo ID (aka Yahoo Profile) which is exposed in the members' version of the Members list. Users of that feature who did not want their email address exposed were advised to create an Alias ID for their account. Until Yahoo withdrew the Alias feature. Now I just advise Yahoo Groups users to avoid that sign-up method - it is too new relative to the last developer support for Yahoo Groups code, and full of pitfalls like that.

And again, because it is new, not likely much aid in collecting the membership of an older, inactive, group.

But it seems a restricted group's members may not be available except
to moderator/owner

I don't think either of the above are related to whether the group membership is restricted (requires approval).

Shal


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On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 02:03 pm, Ellen wrote:

Do the members WANT to be moved? Sounds like it’s a “dead” group?

A little more research about this Group might have proven useful had it been conducted earlier. Looking at what can be seen of it on Yahoo the traffic level dropped off markedly by about 2015, with there only being 3 messages in 2017.

However, a quick search here on Groups.io found this: /g/kenwood-r5000 which was founded in September 2017, but with only 19 topics listed and its last listed post being June 18th it does look as though it is rather quiet.The Message History rather confirms this. It has 99 members which is a lot fewer than those recorded for the Yahoo Group.?

Yes,? that is the group I created since I could not even post to the yahoo group and could not get moderator or owner's attention.

Now it may be that the Group.io group and the Yahoo one are totally unrelated, although the dates rather suggest otherwise.\

They are related but only because I thought I had to create the groups.io group.? The yahoo group is on auto join so no approval is needed but no new user can post to the yahoo group because the owner/moderator is mia and has been for years now as evidenced by the fact that I have been a member for over 2 years and still can't get a message to be approved so it posts.? I have tried once per 2 months and the message always dies after 14 days with no moderator or owner approval.

That is the reason for the question and exercise.? If a group is abandoned I felt there should be a way to resurrect it,? Yes the list is low volume now but with 2600 yahoo members still there I felt the list had a purpose and could obviously not continue on Yahoo as no one that buys the piece of equipment and wishes to join the group to get or share info can do that at all.

Thank you.

Jim

I suggest that anyone wanting to find this group looks a bit closer to "home"!

Chris.

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Jim Pruitt,

? I agree that this group is "orphaned".? If there is limited content I suggest you
consider creating a groups.io group - with a similar name - and then try ... thru
other means than thru the yahoo group ... to get people to know that the
groups.io group exists and that you have started it in order to "get things
moving in a positive direction".??
? If you know even one person who is on the yahoo group and is able to
post - talk that person into posting the existence of the new group to
the old one.

As I have already said,? I have done that.? I have a new group with similar name on groups.io.? I had one member post to the yahoo group asking for users still interested to join the new group.? I got about 25 people to join (out of the 2600 member list).

It would be nice to have the message archives but it is and was the files I was after.? The list has about 6000 messages in the 16 years but only a handful per year for the last several.? Yes,? I can just grab the files and beg forgiveness afterword but I was trying to get permission before hand.? That is the purpose of this exercise.

I just found it very strange that there was no way to find out for sure who the owners and moderators are (especially if the group was orphaned years ago).? The group is set up to allow auto join without approval but first message moderate hence being a member but unable to post...for over 2 years now.? Yes,? Yahoo has been zero help.? I even posted this very same question to their moderator's forum and got no real answers other than "sorry charlie" so I guess the files will stay with yahoo.

Thank you for the help.

Jim

? Yes, the approach above "abandons" the content of the old group.
I propose that its time to do that.? Or to copy, by hand, the key items
of content (files and photos only) ... and one by one ... over to the
new group.? Painful but at least possible ...

? A bit of background - back before the last change in ownership of
yahoo groups (corporate ownership) it was possible to get someone
assigned as the owner of an orphaned yahoo group.? I doubt that you
will have any luck at that now - simply because you probably won't
be able to get the attention of anyone at yahoo groups.? Especially
if they get wind of the fact that the reason why you want to become
the new owner is to transfer it to groups.io.? *G*
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim B.

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Shal, to
Interesting, I belong to a support group for UK members.? We once had a mutual agreement but apparently
the owners took BREXIT worldwide and put me on moderated for a year because I told them,like Chicken Little,
the (yahoo) sky was falling and they should move to groups.io.

There aren't many emails per day so? for years I've just let the accumulate in Outlook. Just ran a count and?
there are over 10000 since early 2000s and it seems that every one has their email address in plain sight at the end where it says
"posted by" followed by the email address.

Also it looks as if anyone who joined with a non Yahoo email address has their email address in plain view in the members' list that is grabbed by the Chrome App.
It may be a lucky stroke that happened because the vast majority of the group post via email but it would be fairly? simple to scrape email addresses from both the chrome app file and saved emails.
I just never bothered because I didn't have a need for the info.

But it seems a restricted group's members may not be available except to moderator/owner
--

Bob Bellizzi

Founder, Fuchs Friends??
Founder & Executive Director,?

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 02:03 pm, Ellen wrote:

Do the members WANT to be moved? Sounds like it’s a “dead” group?

A little more research about this Group might have proven useful had it been conducted earlier. Looking at what can be seen of it on Yahoo the traffic level dropped off markedly by about 2015, with there only being 3 messages in 2017.

However, a quick search here on Groups.io found this: /g/kenwood-r5000 which was founded in September 2017, but with only 19 topics listed and its last listed post being June 18th it does look as though it is rather quiet.The Message History rather confirms this. It has 99 members which is a lot fewer than those recorded for the Yahoo Group.?

Now it may be that the Group.io group and the Yahoo one are totally unrelated, although the dates rather suggest otherwise.

I suggest that anyone wanting to find this group looks a bit closer to "home"!

Chris.

Jim Pruitt,

? I agree that this group is "orphaned".? If there is limited content I suggest you
consider creating a groups.io group - with a similar name - and then try ... thru
other means than thru the yahoo group ... to get people to know that the
groups.io group exists and that you have started it in order to "get things
moving in a positive direction".??
? If you know even one person who is on the yahoo group and is able to
post - talk that person into posting the existence of the new group to
the old one.

? Yes, the approach above "abandons" the content of the old group.
I propose that its time to do that.? Or to copy, by hand, the key items
of content (files and photos only) ... and one by one ... over to the
new group.? Painful but at least possible ...

? A bit of background - back before the last change in ownership of
yahoo groups (corporate ownership) it was possible to get someone
assigned as the owner of an orphaned yahoo group.? I doubt that you
will have any luck at that now - simply because you probably won't
be able to get the attention of anyone at yahoo groups.? Especially
if they get wind of the fact that the reason why you want to become
the new owner is to transfer it to groups.io.? *G*
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim B.

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