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In a message dated 11/26/2001 11:06:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, crma@... writes:
I would argue that all of these including gaming can have value. ?The
value is just not physical.
And, if you've ever watched the kids in the game store, each with the tape measure out, it even IS partly physical -- there is manual dexterity involved as well as hand-eye coordination. Probably those who have it don't appreciate it - but it is something that is great for a 12 yo boy to be developing - especially those who don't yet write comfortably. I'd sure rather have them developing that sense of distance and hand-eye coordination now, then wait until they're behind the wheel of their first car, for example!
Not that, in my mind, this kind of argument is needed to justify playing the games -- just that they are fun and satisfying to the kid is enough for me, really. I mean, isn't a lot of our own lives a search for things to do that satisfy us? Sheesh - why do we feel anxious when our kids FIND such things?
--pam
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In a message dated 11/27/01 9:15:17 AM Mountain Standard Time, PSoroosh@... writes:
. I'd sure rather have them developing that sense of distance and hand-eye coordination now, then wait until they're behind the wheel of their first car, for example!
OH! I've had that thought in my mind a lot lately, now that Kirby is fifteen and talking about driver's ed. ?I have no doubt that he'll be a really good driver, because he's really good at Nintendo games, and he's physically cautious in general. ?
As some of you come across and watch the new Nintendo Game Cube game Monkeyball, watch what fine movement is required to go through those mazes. ?I watched Kirby and Marty play it the first time they picked it up and thought "This will make them better drivers." ?
And before someone snorts and says "That's not real and cars are," I will say that I see them care more about keeping a character on an intricate course than some of the drivers I saw yesterday cared about keeping their car in a lane of traffic!
Sandra
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My oldest (17 tomorrow) has her first behind-the-wheel driving lesson on Thursday morning at 10 am.
I can only WISH she'd been playing Nintendo for years!!!!!
I learned to drive in a simulator -- it was great fun and VERY VERY VERY good. I felt comfortable by the time I was behind the wheel of a real car. I can't believe she's going to get behind the wheel of a car and just DRIIIIIIIIVE!!
Not that I'm nervous --- but AAAAACKKKKKK!!!!!!!
--pam
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but I'm concerned about the creation and manipulation of desire for power.
Maybe it's only an acknowledgement and an exercise in the very REAL desire for power kids have. ?If they can have the feeling of power without needing to bully other humans or steal stereos to get it, I say more power to 'em!!
Sandra
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In a message dated 11/27/01 11:39:46 AM Mountain Standard Time, ecsamhill@... writes:
Does anyone have insight into where satisfaction at a job well done comes from? ?Can it only be destroyed by being a perfectionist, or are there other ways it might be undermined?
That's a topic about the size of the universe, I think.
Different people are more or less affected by others' opinions or expressions. ?Some are SO dependent on others' approval that it's considered detrimental (co-dependency). ?Some care so little about the opinions of others it's considered pathological (sociopath?). ?
Balance.
No sense living your future on an old accomplishment. ?"I was a cheerleader!" shouldn't be depended on to take a woman happily into her 40's.
It seems to me those the happiest with their accomplishments are those who were the most realistic about what they hoped to do, what the risk of failure was, who were doing it selflessly and generously, and who plan to try again to do it better another time anyway. ?Those who would have been happy with failure too seem to have a healthier happiness with success.
Sandra
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In a message dated 11/27/01 1:15:37 PM Mountain Standard Time, Tuck@... writes:
The difference between the big city and the country, I suppose. ?I can't imagine anyone having driving lessons around here (except maybe those teens who are forced to go to driver's ed in school because of insurance rates or others who go to avoid a fine or something). ?Not that driving lessons aren't NEEDED by some around here. ?lol.
It was like that in New Mexico when I was learning. ?Most didn't take driver's ed.
The laws just lately changed. ?There's a three-phase deal up to full license. ?Anyone who doesn't want to take driver's ed has to wait until they're 18 (I think; I could be wrong) to take a test.
There are no more learner's permits except the one you get when you sign up for driver's ed. It requires, in addition to the classes, six hours (I think) with the instructor (which replaces the driving-with-a-test-guy which was part of the old licensing procedure), and fifty logged hours with licensed drivers who sign off, and I think ten of those have to be at night, and FULL hours. ?That's a lot of driving, just to get past the permit stage.
Then they have provisional. ?With a provisional license you can't drive certain hours (midnight to 5:00 a.m.?? something...) and you can only have one person in the car who is not a member of your family. ?The way to get to the next stage is to go a year without any citations. ?So any ticket on a provision license starts that year over again.
Kirby has more and more driving friends. ?They're all really good. ?They critique my driving. ?I let them. ?It's good practice, and it raises my own confidence about their knowledge of the laws and of safety. ?("I didn't see a turn signal," Brett said last week. ?"You can't see it from there," I said. ?I hadn't used one because there was nobody else in sight and I was turning into my neighborhood, and there was no one to whom I needed to communicate that turn, but driver's ed says use it anyway to keep in the habit.)
Sandra
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In a message dated 11/27/2001 11:23:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, SandraDodd@... writes:
Those who would have been happy with failure too seem to have a healthier happiness with success.
So true. How on earth do people get to be okay with failure? I'm not - I know it. I suffered from perfectionism so badly that I really felt it was messing up my life. So I purposely decided to do some things I knew I'd never be really very good at -- I took up an invitation to join a bowling league after discovering I was really terrible at it. And I started trying to be conscious of choosing to just "muddle through" things occasionally.
By the way, it isn't like I'm Martha Stewart ?- I FEEL perfectionistic, but I'm not able to carry it off, by any means. In fact, I screw up pretty badly on many things, but that's because I'm not okay with trying hard and then not being super successful. So my house is a mess because I can't keep it perfect. And so on. I don't have any automatic sense of just doing good enough - I have to make myself be conscious of it.
I can see it in my kids too. I've passed it on. But I don't know how I've done it or how to avoid it.
--pam
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In a message dated 11/27/2001 12:16:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, Tuck@... writes:
The difference between the big city and the country, I suppose. ?I can't imagine anyone having driving lessons around here (except maybe those teens who are forced to go to driver's ed in school because of insurance rates or others who go to avoid a fine or something). ?Not that driving lessons aren't NEEDED by some around here. ?lol.
Its the law. Her permit isn't valid until she has signed up for 6 hours of lessons with a certified (by the dept of motor vehicles) driving instructor. Once she's signed up and had her first lesson, she then can drive with other licensed drivers, to practice. But there is no way for a kid who is under 18 to practice drive (legally) unless they take coursework (driver education) and behind-the-wheel lessons (driver training).
--pam
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?
SandraDodd@... wrote:
?
As some of you come across
and watch the new Nintendo Game Cube game Monkeyball, watch what fine movement
is required to go through those mazes.? I watched Kirby and Marty
play it the first time they picked it up and thought "This will make them
better drivers."
I must be a lot grumpier than you by nature.
When I'm out on the freeway, and people are whizzing by me and cutting
in front of me with tiny margins for error, I'm often heard to mutter "These
people learned to drive playing Nintendo and haven't figured out that this
freeway doesn't HAVE a Restart button."
Betsy
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Sandra wrote : As some of you come across and watch the new Nintendo Game Cube game Monkeyball, watch what fine movement is required to go through
those mazes. I watched Kirby and Marty play it the first time they picked it up and thought "This will make them better drivers." I'll have to look at that one. We have two games for the Game Cube and I'm looking for something my children (6 & 4) could play. We have Jet Race and Luigi's Mansion. (No choice : Nintendo gave the system and the games to my husband since he was part of the team which designed it.) I'm impressed with the system. When I was last working fulltime (7 years ago) a system with those capabilities cost tens of thousands of dollars. Now you can get it for a lot less! -- Cindy Ferguson crma@...
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My
oldest (17 tomorrow) has her first behind-the-wheel driving lesson on Thursday
morning at 10 am.
The difference between the big city and the country, I suppose. ?I can't
imagine anyone having driving lessons around here (except maybe those teens
who are forced to go to driver's ed in school because of insurance rates
or others who go to avoid a fine or something). ?Not that driving lessons
aren't NEEDED by some around here. ?lol.
We all learned to drive out in the country, as did my teenagers. ?When we
moved back to Memphis, I was terrified when Jon at 16 wanted to drive the
5 miles to the grocery store--on very busy city streets. ?But thought nothing
of letting him drive by himself to the little store up the road when he was
14 and still unlicensed. ?(No cops, no traffic, no problem. )
They also became much better drivers when they were finally allowed to drive
alone for a period of time, in all kinds of circumstances. ?I guess my nervousness
at their driving was ooking out all over them. ?;)
Tuck
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Her permit
isn't valid until she has signed up for 6 hours of lessons with a certified
(by the dept of motor vehicles) driving instructor.
Wow, what a racket. ?;)
It amazes me how different things can be from state to state.
Tuck
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On Tuesday, November 27, 2001, at 05:02 PM, PSoroosh@... wrote: In a message dated 11/27/2001 11:23:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Those who would have been happy with failure too seem to have a
healthier happiness with success.
So true. How on earth do people get to be okay with failure? I'm not -
I know it. I suffered from perfectionism so badly that I really felt it
was messing up my life. So I purposely decided to do some things I knew
I'd never be really very good at -- I took up an invitation to join a
bowling league after discovering I was really terrible at it. And I
started trying to be conscious of choosing to just "muddle through"
things occasionally.
By the way, it isn't like I'm Martha Stewart ?- I FEEL perfectionistic,
but I'm not able to carry it off, by any means. In fact, I screw up
pretty badly on many things, but that's because I'm not okay with
trying hard and then not being super successful. So my house is a mess
because I can't keep it perfect. And so on. I don't have any automatic
sense of just doing good enough - I have to make myself be conscious of
it.
I can see it in my kids too. I've passed it on. But I don't know how
I've done it or how to avoid it.
--pam Hi Pam, I know exactly what you're talking about. I have suffered from severe perfectionism ever since I can remember. I've had several failures in my life because of it, including flunking out of 2 colleges, one of which was a very fine Ivy League school. Perfectionism can truly paralyze you. A bad case of perfectionism along with clinical depression and very poor self-esteem can really mess you up. I'm 42 now and I'm much more relaxed. My house is still a total mess, but even that is getting better too. As a child I was constantly hearing critical statements like: "If you can't do it right then don't do it at all." Things like this along with a whole bunch of other issues I'm sure contributed to my problem with perfectionism. With regard to my children, I make sure they understand that mistakes are a part of learning and I never make a big deal about them. I try never to criticize them and accept them just the way they are, no matter what that may be. I guess it's unconditional love and acceptance. I have found a great site called FLYlady.com Make sure you check it out. FLY stands for Finally Loving Yourself. She helps people like us get a handle on the messes in our houses. She sends you a bunch of e-mails every day giving you little assignments so that you can clean up your house and get it under control. I'm taking it very slowly. I'm still a Flybaby, but I see an improvement. Mimi
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?
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message
dated 11/27/01 11:39:46 AM Mountain Standard Time, ecsamhill@...
writes:
?
?
Does
anyone have insight into where satisfaction at a job well done comes from??
Can it only be destroyed by being a perfectionist, or are there other ways
it might be undermined?
That's a topic about the
size of the universe, I think.
Yeah, I think I either need to crack some books on philosophy, or
get a scenic Greek hillside, some togas and grapes and cheese and start
up a nice Socratic dialog.
Betsy
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groundhoggirl wrote:
Hi Pam,
I know exactly what you're talking about. I have suffered from severe perfectionism ever since I can remember. I've had several failures in my life because of it, including flunking out of 2 colleges, one of which was a very fine Ivy League school. Perfectionism can truly paralyze you. A bad case of perfectionism along with clinical depression and very poor self-esteem can really mess you up. I'm 42 now and I'm much more relaxed. My house is still a total mess, but even that is getting better too.
This isn't exactly brave or empowered of me, but I like to blame some of my perfectionism on the school system. There's something about testing, and grades and answers marked wrong in red that contributes to building perfectionism. I especially don't like the idea that you are tested at one point in time, and if you don't know the answer at that moment, then you are wrong forever. That seems to imply that you might as well not bother knowing it later. Because you don't know something yet, you are downgraded in perpetuity. Betsy
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On Tuesday, November 27, 2001, at 08:50 PM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
groundhoggirl wrote:
Hi Pam,
I know exactly what you're talking about. I have suffered from severe
perfectionism ever since I can remember. I've had several failures in
my life because of it, including flunking out of 2 colleges, one of
which was a very fine Ivy League school. Perfectionism can truly
paralyze you. A bad case of perfectionism along with clinical
depression and very poor self-esteem can really mess you up. I'm 42 now
and I'm much more relaxed. My house is still a total mess, but even
that is getting better too.
This isn't exactly brave or empowered of me, but I like to blame some
of my perfectionism on the school system.
There's something about testing, and grades and answers marked wrong in
red that contributes to building perfectionism.? I especially don't
like the idea that you are tested at one point in time, and if you
don't know the answer at that moment, then you are wrong forever.? That
seems to imply that you might as well not bother knowing it later.?
Because you don't know something yet, you are downgraded in perpetuity.
Betsy
Hi Betsy, Yes, I totally agree. All of that can be very damaging to a child. And, depending on the individual, of course, deschooling may take years and some of the damage done is irreparable. But, from personal experience, I believe that what happens, or doesn't happen, between a child and the parent(s) can have a much more severe impact on the psyche of a child. Mimi
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There's something about testing, and grades and answers marked wrong in red that contributes to building perfectionism.
I'm not into assigning worksheets and stuff like that, but I read about someone who marked mistakes on kids' work with a circled LO for learning opportunity. It's a step, anyway. Tia Tia Leschke leschke@... On Vancouver Island ** It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice Levy
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groundhoggirl wrote:
I know exactly what you're talking about. I have suffered from severe perfectionism ever since I can remember. I've had several failures in my life because of it, including flunking out of 2 colleges, one of which was a very fine Ivy League school. Perfectionism can truly paralyze you. A bad case of perfectionism along with clinical depression and very poor self-esteem can really mess you up. I'm 42 now and I'm much more relaxed. My house is still a total mess, but even that is getting better too.
I know that some of my perfectionism stems from my family of origin. I thought that if I did "it" perfectly my parents would love me. My parents actually did me a big favor in one regard. I heard all my life about how smart my dad was because he took physics in high school. I vowed at a young age (8 or so) that I would take physics in high school too and show him how smart I was. I did; I was/am good at that subject. I still got ridiculed by him. But taking the math and other science classes put me on a road to independence and I've only looked back in order to overcome my past. I've had depression to battle too and it can mess you up, I agree! With regard to my children, I make sure they understand that mistakes are a part of learning and I never make a big deal about them. I try never to criticize them and accept them just the way they are, no matter what that may be. I guess it's unconditional love and acceptance.
I am working on that with my children too. My daughter seems to be okay with making mistakes. My son (who is younger) seems to have more difficulty. He went thru a period of time where he wouldn't try to draw anything because she or I could do it better. I would help him when he asked and now he's fine with his drawing. He's 4; she's 6 and I hope they can both escape the perfectionism I've had problems with. -- Cindy Ferguson crma@...
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?
Cindy wrote:
?
I know that some of my perfectionism stems from my family of origin.?
I
thought that if I did "it" perfectly my parents would love me.?
My
parents actually did me a big favor in one regard.? I heard
all my life
about how smart my dad was because he took physics in high school.?
I
vowed at a young age (8 or so) that I would take physics in high
school
too and show him how smart I was.? I did; I was/am good at
that subject.
I still got ridiculed by him.? But taking the math and other
science
classes put me on a road to independence and I've only looked back
in
order to overcome my past.
My husband told me about some fairly interesting Psych research, that's
obliquely related to what you are talking about.
They've done testing using online simulations of gambling (slot machines,
I think), and found that the more variable the results, the more deeply
hooked the player is.? (Measured by how long the test subject will
chose to keep playing for the return offered.)
I can see how this applies to romantic relationships -- it explains
the whole "playing hard to get concept".? (Which I loathe!)?
It can probably be extended to apply to parents a little bit.
I'm struggling with my relationship with my dad right now.
Betsy
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