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Question sent for me to post anonymously:
___________________
I feel like I've come so far in my progress towards fully unschooling, but in the end, I always bump up against the fact that it feels irresponsible to me.? I'm talking about the bare minimum of helping them learn the very basics:? this is how you write (forming letters, I mean; not sentences); or knowing their basic math facts and the concepts of arithmetic:? I feel *irresponsible* not doing some things in a more "school-y" fashion.? I would love some help in how to look at this differently....so far the responses I've gotten have been along the lines of "you need to deschool some more," and I'm going *yes!* I know!? But how do I get around this wall, specifically?? What would help me let go of this last little bit of academics?? How do I let go (or maybe come to accept?) this feeling of irresponsibility?
______________________
Let's help think of how to clear this hurdle, but also, while we're at it...
What are some other things people have "bumped up against" and had a hard time getting around, over, or through?
?
Thanks!
?
Sandra
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On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 02:24 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
I feel like I've come so far in my progress towards fully unschooling, but in the end, I always bump up against the fact that it feels irresponsible to me.?
As usual, I'm going to examine the terminology used. :-)? Sometimes people are defensive about that, so I hope the anonymous mom can endure that. :-)
"but in the end..."
Why is that "the end"???
Perhaps there is a faulty map in play.? Maybe the mom is thinking there is a course of deschooling that results in the completion of deschooling, but that in her case, she's not getting to that finish line, because "in the end..."
Deschooling isn't "one and done" (once and d..? donce?? dunce?) .??
It has levels, or layers.? Enough deschooling for starting won't be enough deschooling to continue.? Enough deschooling to continue won't be enough deschooling when that child (or one of those children) reaches a new level or layer of his own growth and learning!? ?
Parents are often surprised that their own peaceful parenting practices that are working GREAT can hit a bump.? Often it's when the child comes to an age or stage at which the parent had problems, or fears, or some trauma (minor or major).? Then the parental emotions are stirred up and deschooling seems (for a little bit) not to have "completely worked," but it's not that.? It's that a 30 year old mom with a 5 year old child isn't in the same place (from any measurement) as the same mom at 35 with a ten year old, or 45 and 15.??
You've already looked at the deschooling links, probably.? Try these:
Sometimes what seems like the most direct route doesn't provide the time, and breadth and width of ideas and information as the slower, meandering scenic route.? ?A 3-D model can provide more than a line drawing, very often.
Sandra
?
?
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On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 02:24 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
I'm talking about the bare minimum of helping them learn the very basics:? this is how you write (forming letters, I mean; not sentences) "
"This is how you write..."
Wait.? I'm not forming letters.? I'm touching a keyboard on a laptop computer.? There are other ways to get these words into these messages, but nobody is "forming letters."?
?
-=-or knowing their basic math facts-=-
WOOP!? WOOP!!? The alarm goes off.
"Their"—that one Individual child's, or those two or three children's (I don't know this mom's details, so picture your own)—"facts"?
Facts just are. I don't have my own basic math facts.? There ARE mathematical realities.? Some I understand well, and some less clearly, and yet I grew up and reproduced.? :-)
To the original questioner:? Please read back through the question. It's well written grammatically and the punctuation and spelling are good, and so I don't feel bad about suggesting going to the next level:? phrases, terminology, word choice.
Others might want to read that as an exercise in seeing how word choices revel clues to thoughts and beliefs.??
None of this should stress or hurt anybody.? It's just words and ideas.??
You're all probably sitting in a comfortable and familiar place, safe.? Don't be afraid.
?
Sandra
and the concepts of arithmetic:-=-
And if that child is not yet writing, the for the mom to think to address the child as "you" and say "this is how you write" is a clue to the mom's blockage, maybe.? She thinks there is a way that THAT child must/should/will or should be / will be "forming letters."? In order to write.
?
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I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 21, 2023, at 5:00 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
?On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 02:24 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
I'm talking about the bare minimum of helping them learn the very basics:? this is how you write (forming letters, I mean; not sentences) "
"This is how you write..."
Wait.? I'm not forming letters.? I'm touching a keyboard on a laptop computer.? There are other ways to get these words into these messages, but nobody is "forming letters."?
?
-=-or knowing their basic math facts-=-
WOOP!? WOOP!!? The alarm goes off.
"Their"—that one Individual child's, or those two or three children's (I don't know this mom's details, so picture your own)—"facts"?
Facts just are. I don't have my own basic math facts.? There ARE mathematical realities.? Some I understand well, and some less clearly, and yet I grew up and reproduced.? :-)
To the original questioner:? Please read back through the question. It's well written grammatically and the punctuation and spelling are good, and so I don't feel bad about suggesting going to the next level:? phrases, terminology, word choice.
Others might want to read that as an exercise in seeing how word choices revel clues to thoughts and beliefs.??
None of this should stress or hurt anybody.? It's just words and ideas.??
You're all probably sitting in a comfortable and familiar place, safe.? Don't be afraid.
?
Sandra
and the concepts of arithmetic:-=-
And if that child is not yet writing, the for the mom to think to address the child as "you" and say "this is how you write" is a clue to the mom's blockage, maybe.? She thinks there is a way that THAT child must/should/will or should be / will be "forming letters."? In order to write.
?
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I would say two or three of the hurdles we have felt severely “bumped up against” personally (husband and I) would be screens/media (like not filtering so heavily what they can see) but majorly strong language and “junk food” as we were both homeschooled and grew up in very religious families where it was so not okay (to show a lot of anger let alone ever curse/use strong language) or do it in a joking manner. We also grew up with a lot of shame and control around food in general but specifically sweets/junk food/etc and a lot of shaming if we ever got sick/had cavities/got hyper/etc “shouldn’t have eaten so much sugar”.?
I think perhaps I personally also have the specific thing of “my kids spending their money on treats” (even though we try to provide an abundance of it as well as lots of healthy options) because I was shamed for that as a kid, when I had pocket money.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 21, 2023, at 6:02 PM, Miji Kent <mijeezie@...> wrote:
? I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.? On Aug 21, 2023, at 5:00 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
?On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 02:24 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
I'm talking about the bare minimum of helping them learn the very basics:? this is how you write (forming letters, I mean; not sentences) "
"This is how you write..."
Wait.? I'm not forming letters.? I'm touching a keyboard on a laptop computer.? There are other ways to get these words into these messages, but nobody is "forming letters."?
?
-=-or knowing their basic math facts-=-
WOOP!? WOOP!!? The alarm goes off.
"Their"—that one Individual child's, or those two or three children's (I don't know this mom's details, so picture your own)—"facts"?
Facts just are. I don't have my own basic math facts.? There ARE mathematical realities.? Some I understand well, and some less clearly, and yet I grew up and reproduced.? :-)
To the original questioner:? Please read back through the question. It's well written grammatically and the punctuation and spelling are good, and so I don't feel bad about suggesting going to the next level:? phrases, terminology, word choice.
Others might want to read that as an exercise in seeing how word choices revel clues to thoughts and beliefs.??
None of this should stress or hurt anybody.? It's just words and ideas.??
You're all probably sitting in a comfortable and familiar place, safe.? Don't be afraid.
?
Sandra
and the concepts of arithmetic:-=-
And if that child is not yet writing, the for the mom to think to address the child as "you" and say "this is how you write" is a clue to the mom's blockage, maybe.? She thinks there is a way that THAT child must/should/will or should be / will be "forming letters."? In order to write.
?
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I didn’t see your responses at first Sandra (beyond the email asking for thoughts that might help/stories of our own hurdles we bumped against) but I just read them and found them to be very true in my own experience and a helpful reminder. Thank you. Your writing has changed my life over the last few years!?
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Show quoted text
On Aug 21, 2023, at 6:06 PM, Miji Kent <mijeezie@...> wrote:
? I would say two or three of the hurdles we have felt severely “bumped up against” personally (husband and I) would be screens/media (like not filtering so heavily what they can see) but majorly strong language and “junk food” as we were both homeschooled and grew up in very religious families where it was so not okay (to show a lot of anger let alone ever curse/use strong language) or do it in a joking manner. We also grew up with a lot of shame and control around food in general but specifically sweets/junk food/etc and a lot of shaming if we ever got sick/had cavities/got hyper/etc “shouldn’t have eaten so much sugar”.?
I think perhaps I personally also have the specific thing of “my kids spending their money on treats” (even though we try to provide an abundance of it as well as lots of healthy options) because I was shamed for that as a kid, when I had pocket money.? On Aug 21, 2023, at 6:02 PM, Miji Kent <mijeezie@...> wrote:
? I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.? On Aug 21, 2023, at 5:00 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
?On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 02:24 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
I'm talking about the bare minimum of helping them learn the very basics:? this is how you write (forming letters, I mean; not sentences) "
"This is how you write..."
Wait.? I'm not forming letters.? I'm touching a keyboard on a laptop computer.? There are other ways to get these words into these messages, but nobody is "forming letters."?
?
-=-or knowing their basic math facts-=-
WOOP!? WOOP!!? The alarm goes off.
"Their"—that one Individual child's, or those two or three children's (I don't know this mom's details, so picture your own)—"facts"?
Facts just are. I don't have my own basic math facts.? There ARE mathematical realities.? Some I understand well, and some less clearly, and yet I grew up and reproduced.? :-)
To the original questioner:? Please read back through the question. It's well written grammatically and the punctuation and spelling are good, and so I don't feel bad about suggesting going to the next level:? phrases, terminology, word choice.
Others might want to read that as an exercise in seeing how word choices revel clues to thoughts and beliefs.??
None of this should stress or hurt anybody.? It's just words and ideas.??
You're all probably sitting in a comfortable and familiar place, safe.? Don't be afraid.
?
Sandra
and the concepts of arithmetic:-=-
And if that child is not yet writing, the for the mom to think to address the child as "you" and say "this is how you write" is a clue to the mom's blockage, maybe.? She thinks there is a way that THAT child must/should/will or should be / will be "forming letters."? In order to write.
?
|
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 04:02 PM, Marijah wrote:
I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.?
So...?
That's a bad example, someone who held on to math and regretted it.
It's like saying "If you follow this fork in the path, you'll come to brambles and a cliff."? So the better advice is NOT to hold on to math, or to some of the basics.
But how?? That's the question.? :-)? Knowing that some regret it can be helpful.? To anyone who benefits from stories of what people regret, here's a collection:
?
Sandra
?
?
--
(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
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On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 04:06 PM, Marijah wrote:
We also grew up with a lot of shame and control
A big part of deschooling, and a big benefit of unschooling is the healing of childhood memories and effects that the parents can experience.? If parents want to hang on to their childhoods and work from there, it will be a bit like ghostly children trying to unschooling living children.? Parents need to find ways to be whole and present, aware and really WITH their children. ? -- (If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
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Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but I was saying that what Sue Elvia wrote in her book I found helpful - I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it themselves. I wasn’t intending for my summary to be helpful in and of itself - but sharing ?that I found her writing with the detailed working out of her process around it to be helpful. I apologize if I did not make it clear. And yes, I agree that the “better way” is to not hold onto maths at all. Reading other peoples processes and regrets and working out of hurdles has been helpful for me, atleast.?
And as far as the personal hurdles we have “bumped up against” that I gave as examples (per your request that people share just that) - i agree that parents need to do the work to be whole and present in order to have the best outcome for themselves and their kids. I was writing with the assumption that that was a “given”. Awareness is the first step from my experience and healing is definitely our goal, journey, and process. So being aware of our own hurdles and why has been monumental in starting to unravel the tangle of our unique responses and then rewind it all up neatly in a better way.?
I feel pretty taken aback by your responses and I’m wondering if I just completely misinterpreted your original email.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 21, 2023, at 7:46 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
? [Edited Message Follows]
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 04:02 PM, Marijah wrote:
I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.?
So...?
That's a bad example, someone who held on to math and regretted it.
It's like saying "If you follow this fork in the path, you'll come to brambles and a cliff."? So the better advice is NOT to hold on to math, or to some of the basics.
But how?? That's the question.? :-)? Knowing that some regret it can be helpful.? To anyone who benefits from stories of what people regret, here's a collection:
?
Sandra
?
?
--
(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
|
Marija, I really enjoyed your post. Especially your self examination about the correctness if kids spending pocket money on food treats.
Miji. Might have to add Sue Elvis book to my toppling over "to be read" pile. I appreciate the recommendation. I had two children,not seven, but they were nearly 5 years apart ad the first taught me a lot that allowed the second to have different experiences!
The rest is mainly addressed to the original poster.
I wish anonymous had provided a little more context. Such as age of child and how long they went to school. Including "school at home".?
Age not because I believe there is a standard of what a human should know at a particular age but to be able to offer appropriate reassurance.? ?School history because I believe in most cases that preteen schooling is damaging (including damaging learning abilities). Deschooling is needed to undo damage to the child and to deprogram parental attitudes.
Regardless the answers to those questions I would suggest to anonymous that the child may well "know" a lot more than parent realizes. Not to encourage testing or verbal interrogations but instead to watch what child does when "playing" or interacting?with others. Or how they express themselves if watching a movie or sporting event. There can be lots of basic math in sports!
I can't remember the book I read decades ago or author (probably Kozol or Herndon) but a teacher was shocked to finally understand that these early teens labeled as backward or deficient or "non-readers" could and did read magazines or underground newspapers.? Some even had their own enterprises where they calculated percentages with ease. It is true that population couldn't identify which side of Mississippi they lived or who wrote Scarlet Letter but they were never exposed to much besides remedial reading and mind numbing basic math because anything else would be "beyond their abilities". I think the observations in the book are still relevant even if we acknowledge that reading ? printed books is a minority endeavor. Watch your child playing video games or researching YouTube to learn whatever. Ask them to teach you about their interests (and pay attention!) instead of you deciding what and how and when they need to learn.
Vicki
I would say two or three of the hurdles we have felt severely “bumped up against” personally (husband and I) would be screens/media (like not filtering so heavily what they can see) but majorly strong language and “junk food” as we were both homeschooled and grew up in very religious families where it was so not okay (to show a lot of anger let alone ever curse/use strong language) or do it in a joking manner. We also grew up with a lot of shame and control around food in general but specifically sweets/junk food/etc and a lot of shaming if we ever got sick/had cavities/got hyper/etc “shouldn’t have eaten so much sugar”.?
I think perhaps I personally also have the specific thing of “my kids spending their money on treats” (even though we try to provide an abundance of it as well as lots of healthy options) because I was shamed for that as a kid, when I had pocket money.? On Aug 21, 2023, at 6:02 PM, Miji Kent <mijeezie@...> wrote:
?I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.? On Aug 21, 2023, at 5:00 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
?On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 02:24 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
I'm talking about the bare minimum of helping them learn the very basics:? this is how you write (forming letters, I mean; not sentences) "
"This is how you write..."
Wait.? I'm not forming letters.? I'm touching a keyboard on a laptop computer.? There are other ways to get these words into these messages, but nobody is "forming letters."?
?
-=-or knowing their basic math facts-=-
WOOP!? WOOP!!? The alarm goes off.
"Their"—that one Individual child's, or those two or three children's (I don't know this mom's details, so picture your own)—"facts"?
Facts just are. I don't have my own basic math facts.? There ARE mathematical realities.? Some I understand well, and some less clearly, and yet I grew up and reproduced.? :-)
To the original questioner:? Please read back through the question. It's well written grammatically and the punctuation and spelling are good, and so I don't feel bad about suggesting going to the next level:? phrases, terminology, word choice.
Others might want to read that as an exercise in seeing how word choices revel clues to thoughts and beliefs.??
None of this should stress or hurt anybody.? It's just words and ideas.??
You're all probably sitting in a comfortable and familiar place, safe.? Don't be afraid.
?
Sandra
and the concepts of arithmetic:-=-
And if that child is not yet writing, the for the mom to think to address the child as "you" and say "this is how you write" is a clue to the mom's blockage, maybe.? She thinks there is a way that THAT child must/should/will or should be / will be "forming letters."? In order to write.
?
|
-=-- I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it themselves.-=- I would rather people NOT go and read a book that you had to read to decide NOT to do math with kids. The starting place, here, should be the intention to be a radical unschooler, not the vague plan to muddle around in that direction for a while. Sandra On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 7:46?PM Marijah via groups.io <Mijeezie@...> wrote:
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but I was saying that what Sue Elvia wrote in her book I found helpful - I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it themselves. I wasn’t intending for my summary to be helpful in and of itself - but sharing that I found her writing with the detailed working out of her process around it to be helpful. I apologize if I did not make it clear. And yes, I agree that the “better way” is to not hold onto maths at all. Reading other peoples processes and regrets and working out of hurdles has been helpful for me, atleast.
And as far as the personal hurdles we have “bumped up against” that I gave as examples (per your request that people share just that) - i agree that parents need to do the work to be whole and present in order to have the best outcome for themselves and their kids. I was writing with the assumption that that was a “given”. Awareness is the first step from my experience and healing is definitely our goal, journey, and process. So being aware of our own hurdles and why has been monumental in starting to unravel the tangle of our unique responses and then rewind it all up neatly in a better way.
I feel pretty taken aback by your responses and I’m wondering if I just completely misinterpreted your original email.
On Aug 21, 2023, at 7:46 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
?
[Edited Message Follows]
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 04:02 PM, Marijah wrote:
I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.
So...
That's a bad example, someone who held on to math and regretted it.
It's like saying "If you follow this fork in the path, you'll come to brambles and a cliff." So the better advice is NOT to hold on to math, or to some of the basics.
But how? That's the question. :-) Knowing that some regret it can be helpful. To anyone who benefits from stories of what people regret, here's a collection:
Sandra
--
(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one. "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
|
I did not read that book in order to decide NOT to do math with my kids. I read that book - along with your book, almost the entirety of your website and Joyce’s and countless others, and many unschooling podcasts - as part of my journey on deciding to DO IT as well as the why and how of that. I just particularly remembered Sue’s bit on the Maths topic and I felt it could be helpful to this particular original poster. Have you read Sue’s book?
You asked for things that could be helpful or were helpful and I tried to offer just that.
I won’t engage anymore with you in this email thread or possibly at all in the future as I feel very confused and that your further responses don’t seem to be trying to clarify or respond to me at all. Perhaps you only wanted your own blog posts quoted as resources that could be helpful? Or perhaps you only wanted definitive, “one and done” decisiveness communicated even though you clearly reiterate countless times on your website to “read a little, try a little, wait.”
People have processes. Deciding to unschool and carrying it out is a continual process. You allude to a process of your own around unschooling chores in your book - something you had not originally done - yet seem to scold any hinting at a process for people instead of “just deciding to do it.”
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 21, 2023, at 9:34 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
?-=-- I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get
the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it
themselves.-=-
I would rather people NOT go and read a book that you had to read to
decide NOT to do math with kids.
The starting place, here, should be the intention to be a radical
unschooler, not the vague plan to muddle around in that direction for
a while.
Sandra
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 7:46?PM Marijah via groups.io
<Mijeezie@...> wrote:
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but I was saying that what Sue Elvia wrote in her book I found helpful - I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it themselves. I wasn’t intending for my summary to be helpful in and of itself - but sharing that I found her writing with the detailed working out of her process around it to be helpful. I apologize if I did not make it clear. And yes, I agree that the “better way” is to not hold onto maths at all. Reading other peoples processes and regrets and working out of hurdles has been helpful for me, atleast.
And as far as the personal hurdles we have “bumped up against” that I gave as examples (per your request that people share just that) - i agree that parents need to do the work to be whole and present in order to have the best outcome for themselves and their kids. I was writing with the assumption that that was a “given”. Awareness is the first step from my experience and healing is definitely our goal, journey, and process. So being aware of our own hurdles and why has been monumental in starting to unravel the tangle of our unique responses and then rewind it all up neatly in a better way.
I feel pretty taken aback by your responses and I’m wondering if I just completely misinterpreted your original email.
On Aug 21, 2023, at 7:46 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
?
[Edited Message Follows]
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 04:02 PM, Marijah wrote:
I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.
So...
That's a bad example, someone who held on to math and regretted it.
It's like saying "If you follow this fork in the path, you'll come to brambles and a cliff." So the better advice is NOT to hold on to math, or to some of the basics.
But how? That's the question. :-) Knowing that some regret it can be helpful. To anyone who benefits from stories of what people regret, here's a collection:
Sandra
--
(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one. "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
|
Sandra, I am a tad confused too. In many areas of my life I find it helpful to read others' experiences and how they changed their own views. Even if it is another case of ",you have to kiss a lot of toads to find a prince" . I am your proverbial "book worshipper" but I also like (and learned much) from the La Leche League model of mothers talking to each other.? A big attraction of your book Moving the Puddle was anecdotes that occasionally gave me AHA! clarity.
Perhaps I am missing what it is you are objecting to?
Vicki
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023, 9:34 PM Sandra Dodd < Sandra@...> wrote: -=-- I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get
the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it
themselves.-=-
I would rather people NOT go and read a book that you had to read to
decide NOT to do math with kids.
The starting place, here, should be the intention to be a radical
unschooler, not the vague plan to muddle around in that direction for
a while.
Sandra
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 7:46?PM Marijah via
<Mijeezie=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but I was saying that what Sue Elvia wrote in her book I found helpful - I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it themselves. I wasn’t intending for my summary to be helpful in and of itself - but sharing? that I found her writing with the detailed working out of her process around it to be helpful. I apologize if I did not make it clear. And yes, I agree that the “better way” is to not hold onto maths at all. Reading other peoples processes and regrets and working out of hurdles has been helpful for me, atleast.
>
> And as far as the personal hurdles we have “bumped up against” that I gave as examples (per your request that people share just that) - i agree that parents need to do the work to be whole and present in order to have the best outcome for themselves and their kids. I was writing with the assumption that that was a “given”. Awareness is the first step from my experience and healing is definitely our goal, journey, and process. So being aware of our own hurdles and why has been monumental in starting to unravel the tangle of our unique responses and then rewind it all up neatly in a better way.
>
> I feel pretty taken aback by your responses and I’m wondering if I just completely misinterpreted your original email.
>
>
> On Aug 21, 2023, at 7:46 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> [Edited Message Follows]
>
> On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 04:02 PM, Marijah wrote:
>
> I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.
>
> So...
>
> That's a bad example, someone who held on to math and regretted it.
>
> It's like saying "If you follow this fork in the path, you'll come to brambles and a cliff."? So the better advice is NOT to hold on to math, or to some of the basics.
>
> But how?? That's the question.? :-)? Knowing that some regret it can be helpful.? To anyone who benefits from stories of what people regret, here's a collection:
>
>
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> --
> (If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
>
>
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Don't take things personally. It's about the ideas, not about the people.
-=-I won’t engage anymore with you in this email thread or possibly at
all in the future as I feel very confused and that your further
responses don’t seem to be trying to clarify or respond to me at
all.-=-
I was NOT trying to clarify or respond to individuals.
Here's why, from an intro page to this group:
Always Learning is not a social network but a list to discuss what
helps and hinders unschooling. The list exists to deepen understanding
of natural learning.
____________
Joyce Fetteroll, one of the moderators, described it this way:
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
Joyce
___________________
Offer what worked for you and why you think it worked, addressed to
the group, not to an individual. If you see things in a comment that
will lead away from the principles of radical unschooling, point that
out if you can.
That's how it works.
I wish the group was still fast-paced and busy. We had months with
over 1000 posts (a bit TOO busy). Lately, some posts have none.
Still, it can stay true to its purpose.
Sandra
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I realized I did want to clarify one last bit - I didn’t recommend anything from your extensive website only because I assumed the original poster would have already read everything pertaining to that topic contained within your website and be asking for additional help/outside resources to overcome their hurdle.
Hence why I thought my memory of Sue’s book could be a helpful piece for them.
Maybe they just need to read your site.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 21, 2023, at 9:45 PM, Marijah via groups.io <Mijeezie@...> wrote:
?I did not read that book in order to decide NOT to do math with my kids. I read that book - along with your book, almost the entirety of your website and Joyce’s and countless others, and many unschooling podcasts - as part of my journey on deciding to DO IT as well as the why and how of that. I just particularly remembered Sue’s bit on the Maths topic and I felt it could be helpful to this particular original poster. Have you read Sue’s book?
You asked for things that could be helpful or were helpful and I tried to offer just that.
I won’t engage anymore with you in this email thread or possibly at all in the future as I feel very confused and that your further responses don’t seem to be trying to clarify or respond to me at all. Perhaps you only wanted your own blog posts quoted as resources that could be helpful? Or perhaps you only wanted definitive, “one and done” decisiveness communicated even though you clearly reiterate countless times on your website to “read a little, try a little, wait.”
People have processes. Deciding to unschool and carrying it out is a continual process. You allude to a process of your own around unschooling chores in your book - something you had not originally done - yet seem to scold any hinting at a process for people instead of “just deciding to do it.”
On Aug 21, 2023, at 9:34 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
?-=-- I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get
the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it
themselves.-=-
I would rather people NOT go and read a book that you had to read to
decide NOT to do math with kids.
The starting place, here, should be the intention to be a radical
unschooler, not the vague plan to muddle around in that direction for
a while.
Sandra
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 7:46?PM Marijah via groups.io
<Mijeezie@...> wrote:
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but I was saying that what Sue Elvia wrote in her book I found helpful - I was just trying to summarize it in a way so people could get the gist, but definitely intended for them to go and read it themselves. I wasn’t intending for my summary to be helpful in and of itself - but sharing that I found her writing with the detailed working out of her process around it to be helpful. I apologize if I did not make it clear. And yes, I agree that the “better way” is to not hold onto maths at all. Reading other peoples processes and regrets and working out of hurdles has been helpful for me, atleast.
And as far as the personal hurdles we have “bumped up against” that I gave as examples (per your request that people share just that) - i agree that parents need to do the work to be whole and present in order to have the best outcome for themselves and their kids. I was writing with the assumption that that was a “given”. Awareness is the first step from my experience and healing is definitely our goal, journey, and process. So being aware of our own hurdles and why has been monumental in starting to unravel the tangle of our unique responses and then rewind it all up neatly in a better way.
I feel pretty taken aback by your responses and I’m wondering if I just completely misinterpreted your original email.
On Aug 21, 2023, at 7:46 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote: ?
[Edited Message Follows]
On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 04:02 PM, Marijah wrote: I feel like what Sue Elvis shared in her books (she has two but I think it was “curious unschoolers” - the other is “radical unschool love”) helped me some around this area. She “held on” to “some of the basics” for a while and then later shifted (she had 7 children I believe? So shifted as they grew) and reevaluated her choices/regretted “holding on” to the “maths”.
So...
That's a bad example, someone who held on to math and regretted it.
It's like saying "If you follow this fork in the path, you'll come to brambles and a cliff." So the better advice is NOT to hold on to math, or to some of the basics.
But how? That's the question. :-) Knowing that some regret it can be helpful. To anyone who benefits from stories of what people regret, here's a collection:
Sandra
--
(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one. "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
|
-=-Perhaps I am missing what it is you are objecting to?-=-
I thought a recommendation to read a book by someone who didn't start
off solidly with unschooling was a side path.
It's true I haven't read that book, but I don't think others should
need to read it, either, to get information that's freely available in
the archives here and at my site.
Just today I got this by e-mail:
"Thank you SO, so much for keeping your site and all your knowledge
FREE to anyone who seeks and asks. I'm inundated with people offering
advice if I just want to pay their monthly fee. (It's very tiring.)
I'm really grateful for you and your amazing, lovely rabbit-warren of
a website. :) "
________
Perhaps because this was fresh in mind that I didn't think a book by
someone who's never been in this group should be anyone's first go-to,
or primary recommendation.
Sandra
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On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 07:57 PM, Marijah wrote:
Maybe they just need to read your site
Maybe, but mostly I was hoping the question could be discussed here as a philosophical question, in ways that could help the mom see past that blind spot or blockage she's having.
Explaining how your own thinking changed because of what you read would be better than recommending a particular book.
?
When I add a link, I'm assuming that even if the original poster has read it, there will be others who have not.? I aim my responses to people I can't see, who will never post, and to those who might not even have kids yet but will be searching someday and come across this discussion. That's why I want them to be about the topics and about unschooling and not about individuals,.??
?
Thanks!
?
Sandra
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I see and I know you have stated before that you do not mean to make things personal but rather about the principles or ideas. I am trying to keep that in mind. Your site is almost always my first go to and recommendation for people wanting to learn more about unschooling - unless they are looking for an audio/podcast.?
It seems you were upset that I was recommending an outsider source that’s “never been in this group” and the book would need to be purchased (or obtained from a library) versus your widely available site. I can understand that, however as I stated, I was under the assumption that OP would have already read your site exhaustively before writing in for additional help and that’s why I mentioned an outside source. I didn’t think recommending from your site would be helpful as I assumed they had already read it and weren’t connecting the dots properly. I too am extremely grateful for your website and that it is free and vast and a true treasure trove. It’s been more helpful to me than any other resource, hands down. I wasn’t trying to downplay it or put something else “above it” in recommendations.?
It does seem as though you are judging Sue’s process - from “partial unschooler” to “radical unschooler”, which as I stated, does seem hypocritical or atleast contradictory in light of the “read a little, try a little, wait” mantra. And also the whole discussion around how we move towards peace, step by step and choice by choice at a time, making continually better choices (hopefully) as we go.?
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This is about ANY hurdles, and about things seeming obvious.?
It's about why people are defensive, partly, too.
I have lifted it from a facebook discussion (Radical Unschooling Info) and it's 11 years old, but still good and true.? I only lifted the first few—there are others there, at the link below.
?
The first part was cut off a bit in the format, but the question was this:
?
This is no slight to anyone: but how is it , when you, or others on the Yahoo groups, for example, answer/help with a "dilemma" and the answer is so sensical and obvious, how is it that we didn't see it to begin with?
?
?
?
This is no slight to anyone: but how is it , when you, or others on the Yahoo groups, for example, answer/help with a "dilemna" and the answer is so sensical and obvious, how is it that we didn't see it to begin with?
Comments
-
Fear and emotion on the part of the mom asking; years of experience on the part of some of those asking; clever thought or similarity-to-personal example for some. Years of experience in an environment of continuous examination of what helps and what hinders unschooling builds up to knowledge that doesn't transfer.
?
There are people parroting what they've read or heard, but when they're asked a question or shown a situation, they don't know what to say next. Some of them are charging money for others to read or hear what they're repeating from others. There's value in being around people who really have worked long years to understand, and who have been helping people every day for free.
Sometimes the answers don't work for the original poster, but it's rare (if ever) that they don't help someone who was reading without commenting.
-
I think, sometimes when a person is "stuck", they can't see out of their stuck-ness. So, when someone says something that makes sense, it feels like "oh yeah, why didn't I think of that?" The only answer is that they were stuck and now they aren't!
-
My experience has been that when I have not seen how to move forward it's because I was thinking from the traditional paradigm without realizing it. When someone offered an idea from a radical unschooling perspective, everything shifted into place - into the RU paradigm - and I'd think "duh, of course!" But I think in general, radical unschooling approaches are not "obvious" until you mentally shift paradigms.
-
I think emotions block logical thinking, too, and that very often someone is "feeling" so much that they can't "think" clearly. The online experience is naturally more of a "thinking" experience (the act of trying to be articulate) and engaging in it can sort of jumpstart people's thinking ability. Some people get mad, they didn't expect that someone was going to try to jumpstart their engine and it freaks them out.
_________________________________ end of the quotes___________
?
Those and the rest of it:??? ?(if you're on facebook you'll be able to see it, I think)
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On Mon, Aug 21, 2023 at 02:24 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
I would love some help in how to look at this differently.
Look for mathematics without numbers.
Look for writing without pen and paper.
Whatever looks schoolish to you (whether you're thinking it's right, or wrong that doesn't matter) turn away from it for a while, until you get past the roadblock.
?
While you're at it, maybe look at art without painting. :-)? ? Art that's not taught in school, maybe.? Art that's around your house.
Music without notation, without formal instruments.??
History without dates and names.??
This has some ideas.? If you're using a phone, turn it sideways, maybe, when you get there:
?
Sandra
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Marijah
Vicki Dennis
Sandra Dodd