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Hi All,

For those who might find it "interesting" – I noticed the motor of
the HF 8x12-14 was a tad warm and thought a check was in order.

With a motor and ambient temp of 65F the lathe was turned on – no
metal turning. The probe was located on the upper part of the motor
housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

I didn't run the motor unloaded yet.

So the motor runs hot - an auxiliary fan might be in order.

Take care,
DBN

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "druid_noibn" <druid_noibn@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

For those who might find it "interesting" – I noticed the motor of
the HF 8x12-14 was a tad warm and thought a check was in order.

With a motor and ambient temp of 65F the lathe was turned on – no
metal turning. The probe was located on the upper part of the

motor

housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

I didn't run the motor unloaded yet.

So the motor runs hot - an auxiliary fan might be in order.

Take care,
DBN

Interesting find you would think it would be cooler than that can not
have much air opening and also let chips in though. Maybe a small
comp fan and a fine screen to keep material out opie

Hi Chris,

"Interesting" is right. Consider the rig new - there are no chips or other obstructions to airflow. The ambient temp is low and the load was the pulleys, gears and and unloaded lathe chuck - no cutting. The system was checked for binding - none found, all items are running smooth.

That temp rise is significant and suggests a poorly constructed motor or an underpowered unit. As time permits, I'll run a few more diagnostics, e.g., free-running motor.

Take care,
DBN


Chris <house582@...> wrote:
--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "druid_noibn" <druid_noibn@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

For those who might find it "interesting" – I noticed the motor of
the HF 8x12-14 was a tad warm and thought a check was in order.

With a motor and ambient temp of 65F the lathe was turned on – no
metal turning. The probe was located on the upper part of the

motor

housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

I didn't run the motor unloaded yet.

So the motor runs hot - an auxiliary fan might be in order.

Take care,
DBN

Interesting find you would think it would be cooler than that can not
have much air opening and also let chips in though. Maybe a small
comp fan and a fine screen to keep material out opie






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That really doesn't seem all that far out of line, to me. When being run
continously, most motors will be nearly hot to the touch. Generally, if
you can place your hand on them and count to 2, without being burned,
nothing will be hurt in the motor. I guess I should really check some of
my larger ones with an IR temp gun after they have run for a couple
hours, but I'd be surprised if they didn't run at least that warm.

Just looked at the plate on one of my water pump motors. That one is
thermally protected for 40C above ambient.

Ed B
--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "druid_noibn" <druid_noibn@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

For those who might find it "interesting" – I noticed the motor of
the HF 8x12-14 was a tad warm and thought a check was in order.

With a motor and ambient temp of 65F the lathe was turned on – no
metal turning. The probe was located on the upper part of the motor
housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

I didn't run the motor unloaded yet.

So the motor runs hot - an auxiliary fan might be in order.

Take care,
DBN

Hi Ed,

Point well taken.

I routinely use the hand-contact and counting rule and surprisingly it is rather accurate. However, without doubt, the motor is running on the hot side - of course, I am spolied by U.S. built motors, transformers, etc... When I worked for a German-based company some years ago, we replaced transformers and power diodes as often as one replaced fuses. Several reported that the ratings placed on the motors from China are at best suspicious or as some stated, pararphrased, China must have small horses. Nonetheless, if time permits, I'll run an unloaded test this weekend.

Thanks,
DBN

Ed Boysun <boysungran@...> wrote:


That really doesn't seem all that far out of line, to me. When being run
continously, most motors will be nearly hot to the touch. Generally, if
you can place your hand on them and count to 2, without being burned,
nothing will be hurt in the motor. I guess I should really check some of
my larger ones with an IR temp gun after they have run for a couple
hours, but I'd be surprised if they didn't run at least that warm.

Just looked at the plate on one of my water pump motors. That one is
thermally protected for 40C above ambient.

Ed B
--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "druid_noibn" <druid_noibn@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

For those who might find it "interesting" – I noticed the motor of
the HF 8x12-14 was a tad warm and thought a check was in order.

With a motor and ambient temp of 65F the lathe was turned on – no
metal turning. The probe was located on the upper part of the motor
housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

I didn't run the motor unloaded yet.

So the motor runs hot - an auxiliary fan might be in order.

Take care,
DBN

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chinese motors tend to run awfully hot - it's natural for them due to their
constrcution - that goes for both the ac and dc motors (and yes, it seems
chinese ponies are a bit smaller).

Jim RabidWolf
Uncle Rabid ( )
We Repair Electronic Speed Controllers
For Asian Mini Lathes and Mini Mills
"Just Crazy Enough To Get the Job Done"

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Jim RabidWolf" <unclerabid@...>
wrote:

and yes, it seems chinese ponies are a bit smaller.

Jim RabidWolf

Small ponies. Small riders. I have the same issue with Asian origin
tents. If you want a 3-man tent you buy a 4-man. But it's just like an
inch machinist handling metric. Once you know the conversion factors...

John

Hi All,

I thought it might be better to continue the thread - I do not expect much will be said on this item.

I posted the temp rise on the HF 8x12-14 stock lathe motor with pulleys and gears engaged but no cutting. The next step was to see what the unloaded temp rise was. The belts were removed but the stock pulley was left on. The motor had unobstructed airflow and should be considered “new.” The ambient temp was 61.2F (16.2C).

05 min. – 12.1F (6.7C) rise
10 min. – 25.0F (13.9C)
15 min. – 35.6F (19.8C)
20 min. – 42.4F (23.6C)
30 min. – 53.0F (29.4C)
40 min. – 58.9F (32.7C)
50 min. – 62.2F (34.6C)
60 min. – 64.3F (35.7C)

This listing, and the one previously posted, indicate that the motor runs a tad on the hot side although within typical specifications (I don’t have the data sheet on the motor). The tests were run on a continuously running motor which might be a little unusual for most applications.

Again, this is just a little information for those who might wish it.

Take care,
DBN


Druid Noibn <druid_noibn@...> wrote:

Hi Ed,

Point well taken.

I routinely use the hand-contact and counting rule and surprisingly it is rather accurate. However, without doubt, the motor is running on the hot side - of course, I am spolied by U.S. built motors, transformers, etc... When I worked for a German-based company some years ago, we replaced transformers and power diodes as often as one replaced fuses. Several reported that the ratings placed on the motors from China are at best suspicious or as some stated, pararphrased, China must have small horses. Nonetheless, if time permits, I'll run an unloaded test this weekend.

Thanks,
DBN

Ed Boysun <boysungran@...> wrote:

That really doesn't seem all that far out of line, to me. When being run
continously, most motors will be nearly hot to the touch. Generally, if
you can place your hand on them and count to 2, without being burned,
nothing will be hurt in the motor. I guess I should really check some of
my larger ones with an IR temp gun after they have run for a couple
hours, but I'd be surprised if they didn't run at least that warm.

Just looked at the plate on one of my water pump motors. That one is
thermally protected for 40C above ambient.

Ed B
--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "druid_noibn" <druid_noibn@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

For those who might find it "interesting" – I noticed the motor of
the HF 8x12-14 was a tad warm and thought a check was in order.

With a motor and ambient temp of 65F the lathe was turned on – no
metal turning. The probe was located on the upper part of the motor
housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

I didn't run the motor unloaded yet.

So the motor runs hot - an auxiliary fan might be in order.

Take care,
DBN

---------------------------------
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.

---------------------------------
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.

My copy isn't handy so I can't confirm this, but I think there's a
section on electric motors and their acceptable temperature rise in
Machinery's Handbook.

Mike Taglieri miket--nyc@...

Everyone has his reasons.
- Jean Renoir "The Rules of the Game"


On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:22:51 -0800 (PST) Druid Noibn
<druid_noibn@...> writes:

Hi Mike,

I have a handbook and will look at it later.

I would gather it has more to do with the classification of the motor. I've worked on a few motors and drive systems over the last 40 years or so and these run a tad hot. Of course, they "might" be rated as such. Also, as noted, they typically run for short durations.

The data were posted for all to have.

Thanks!

Take care,
DBN

Michael Taglieri <miket--nyc@...> wrote:
My copy isn't handy so I can't confirm this, but I think there's a
section on electric motors and their acceptable temperature rise in
Machinery's Handbook.

Mike Taglieri miket--nyc@...

Everyone has his reasons.
- Jean Renoir "The Rules of the Game"

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:22:51 -0800 (PST) Druid Noibn
<druid_noibn@...> writes:

Hi All,

I thought it might be better to continue the thread - I do not
expect much will be said on this item.

I posted the temp rise on the HF 8x12-14 stock lathe motor with
pulleys and gears engaged but no cutting. The next step was to see
what the unloaded temp rise was. The belts were removed but the
stock pulley was left on. The motor had unobstructed airflow and
should be considered “new.” The ambient temp was 61.2F (16.2C).

05 min. – 12.1F (6.7C) rise
10 min. – 25.0F (13.9C)
15 min. – 35.6F (19.8C)
20 min. – 42.4F (23.6C)
30 min. – 53.0F (29.4C)
40 min. – 58.9F (32.7C)
50 min. – 62.2F (34.6C)
60 min. – 64.3F (35.7C)

This listing, and the one previously posted, indicate that the
motor runs a tad on the hot side although within typical
specifications (I don’t have the data sheet on the motor). The
tests were run on a continuously running motor which might be a
little unusual for most applications.

Again, this is just a little information for those who might wish
it.

Take care,
DBN


Druid Noibn <druid_noibn@...> wrote:

Hi Ed,

Point well taken.

I routinely use the hand-contact and counting rule and surprisingly
it is rather accurate. However, without doubt, the motor is running
on the hot side - of course, I am spolied by U.S. built motors,
transformers, etc... When I worked for a German-based company some
years ago, we replaced transformers and power diodes as often as one
replaced fuses. Several reported that the ratings placed on the
motors from China are at best suspicious or as some stated,
pararphrased, China must have small horses. Nonetheless, if time
permits, I'll run an unloaded test this weekend.

Thanks,
DBN

Ed Boysun <boysungran@...> wrote:

That really doesn't seem all that far out of line, to me. When being
run
continously, most motors will be nearly hot to the touch. Generally,
if
you can place your hand on them and count to 2, without being
burned,
nothing will be hurt in the motor. I guess I should really check
some of
my larger ones with an IR temp gun after they have run for a couple
hours, but I'd be surprised if they didn't run at least that warm.

Just looked at the plate on one of my water pump motors. That one
is
thermally protected for 40C above ambient.

Ed B
--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "druid_noibn"
<druid_noibn@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

For those who might find it "interesting" – I noticed the motor

of

the HF 8x12-14 was a tad warm and thought a check was in order.

With a motor and ambient temp of 65F the lathe was turned on – no
metal turning. The probe was located on the upper part of the

motor

housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

I didn't run the motor unloaded yet.

So the motor runs hot - an auxiliary fan might be in order.

Take care,
DBN

---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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G'day DBN & Mike.
The temperatures you have recorded do not seem unduely high. You need
to remember that the insulation is most likely rated for 90 degC.
(161 degF) temperture rise, this is typical of modern electrical
materials.
First question. Does the motor pass the smell test? There may be a
sweet oily solvent smell, thats normal, but an acidic or acrid smell
indicates trouble.
Question 2: Do the terminals get hotter than the rating of the
connecting cable insulation? The connecting cables with PVC
insulation generally have a temperature rating of at least 75 deg.C.
After extended running and with the motor disconnected at the wall
outlet, measure the terminal temperature (you can get temperature
marker crayons but a finger will do). Note, higher temperature rated
cables are often used for machinery wiring, often rated to 110 deg.C;
this grade of wire is used in fluorescent luminaires.

The only reliable winding temperature measurement is to measure the
winding resistances when cold and hot and compute the temperature
difference. Handbook type advice would generally assume this means of
measurement.

I would suggest that if the motor does not smell bad, the terminal
temperature is less then the connecting cables insulation temperature
limits and the surface temperature of the motor case does not create
a fire hazard then all is well.

Always keep flammable materials, dusts and fluff away from the motor
and ensure the air flow is unrestricted. Then if the motor does give
up you only have to replace the motor not your house. This is good
advice for any electrical equipment!!

One good turn deserves another
Regards,
Ian


--- In 7x12minilathe@..., Druid Noibn <druid_noibn@...>
wrote:

Hi Mike,

I have a handbook and will look at it later.

I would gather it has more to do with the classification of the

motor. I've worked on a few motors and drive systems over the last
40 years or so and these run a tad hot. Of course, they "might" be
rated as such. Also, as noted, they typically run for short
durations.

The data were posted for all to have.

Thanks!

Take care,
DBN

Michael Taglieri <miket--nyc@...> wrote:
My copy isn't handy so I can't confirm this, but I think

there's a

section on electric motors and their acceptable temperature rise in
Machinery's Handbook.

Mike Taglieri miket--nyc@...

The belts were removed but the

stock pulley was left on. The motor had unobstructed airflow and
should be considered "new." The ambient temp was 61.2F (16.2C).

05 min. – 12.1F (6.7C) rise
10 min. – 25.0F (13.9C)
15 min. – 35.6F (19.8C)
20 min. – 42.4F (23.6C)
30 min. – 53.0F (29.4C)
40 min. – 58.9F (32.7C)
50 min. – 62.2F (34.6C)
60 min. – 64.3F (35.7C)

The probe was located on the upper part of the

motor

housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

Hi Ian,

The motor runs fine, just a bit hot which appears "normal" for this motor. All the connections are fine.

When I worked in a Standards Lab we would do these measures, but I'll leave that for a future project (not really...<smile>).

Thanks,
DBN

steam4ian <fosterscons@...> wrote:
G'day DBN & Mike.
The temperatures you have recorded do not seem unduely high. You need
to remember that the insulation is most likely rated for 90 degC.
(161 degF) temperture rise, this is typical of modern electrical
materials.
First question. Does the motor pass the smell test? There may be a
sweet oily solvent smell, thats normal, but an acidic or acrid smell
indicates trouble.
Question 2: Do the terminals get hotter than the rating of the
connecting cable insulation? The connecting cables with PVC
insulation generally have a temperature rating of at least 75 deg.C.
After extended running and with the motor disconnected at the wall
outlet, measure the terminal temperature (you can get temperature
marker crayons but a finger will do). Note, higher temperature rated
cables are often used for machinery wiring, often rated to 110 deg.C;
this grade of wire is used in fluorescent luminaires.

The only reliable winding temperature measurement is to measure the
winding resistances when cold and hot and compute the temperature
difference. Handbook type advice would generally assume this means of
measurement.

I would suggest that if the motor does not smell bad, the terminal
temperature is less then the connecting cables insulation temperature
limits and the surface temperature of the motor case does not create
a fire hazard then all is well.

Always keep flammable materials, dusts and fluff away from the motor
and ensure the air flow is unrestricted. Then if the motor does give
up you only have to replace the motor not your house. This is good
advice for any electrical equipment!!

One good turn deserves another
Regards,
Ian

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., Druid Noibn <druid_noibn@...>
wrote:

Hi Mike,

I have a handbook and will look at it later.

I would gather it has more to do with the classification of the

motor. I've worked on a few motors and drive systems over the last
40 years or so and these run a tad hot. Of course, they "might" be
rated as such. Also, as noted, they typically run for short
durations.

The data were posted for all to have.

Thanks!

Take care,
DBN

Michael Taglieri <miket--nyc@...> wrote:
My copy isn't handy so I can't confirm this, but I think

there's a

section on electric motors and their acceptable temperature rise in
Machinery's Handbook.

Mike Taglieri miket--nyc@...

The belts were removed but the

stock pulley was left on. The motor had unobstructed airflow and
should be considered "new." The ambient temp was 61.2F (16.2C).

05 min. – 12.1F (6.7C) rise
10 min. – 25.0F (13.9C)
15 min. – 35.6F (19.8C)
20 min. – 42.4F (23.6C)
30 min. – 53.0F (29.4C)
40 min. – 58.9F (32.7C)
50 min. – 62.2F (34.6C)
60 min. – 64.3F (35.7C)

The probe was located on the upper part of the

motor

housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

---------------------------------
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As others have pointed out this really doesn't seem out of the norm.
Remember what might seem hot to us is just getting warmed up for
electronics. Hot water at about 130F can burn skin yet most
electronics are capable of running just fine up to 185F or higher. I
had a motor once that was thermally kicking off to save itself and
that thing was HOT!

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "druid_noibn" <druid_noibn@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

For those who might find it "interesting" – I noticed the motor of
the HF 8x12-14 was a tad warm and thought a check was in order.

With a motor and ambient temp of 65F the lathe was turned on – no
metal turning. The probe was located on the upper part of the motor
housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

I didn't run the motor unloaded yet.

So the motor runs hot - an auxiliary fan might be in order.

Take care,
DBN

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:25:41 -0000 "houe2005" <houe2005@...>
writes:

Remember what might seem hot to us is just getting warmed up for

electronics.

People make the same mistake with oil temperatures. I have a Norton
motorcycle whose dry-sump engine holds the engine oil in a separate tank.
Fellow owners on Internet groups are always fitting oil coolers on these
bikes because they feel the oil tank and "it feels so hot." But it's not
hot by engine standards -- 200??? or so is normal operating temperature for
oil a warmed-up engine.

Mike Taglieri miket--nyc@...

Everyone has his reasons.
- Jean Renoir "The Rules of the Game"

Hi,

What might be missed is that the motor is running unloaded. While it is not at all unusual to run the motor for minutes at a time, the temp rise for an unloaded motor running continuously for 1 hour is interesting.

Best regards,
DBN


houe2005 <houe2005@...> wrote:
As others have pointed out this really doesn't seem out of the norm.
Remember what might seem hot to us is just getting warmed up for
electronics. Hot water at about 130F can burn skin yet most
electronics are capable of running just fine up to 185F or higher. I
had a motor once that was thermally kicking off to save itself and
that thing was HOT!

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "druid_noibn" <druid_noibn@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

For those who might find it "interesting" – I noticed the motor of
the HF 8x12-14 was a tad warm and thought a check was in order.

With a motor and ambient temp of 65F the lathe was turned on – no
metal turning. The probe was located on the upper part of the motor
housing, between the motor body and the junction box.

Without noting all of the readings, in the course of:
13 minutes – temp rise 39.3F;
30 minutes – 49.7F;
46 minutes – 58.1F;
63 minutes – 63F – shut-down motor
66 minutes – 65.7F

I didn't run the motor unloaded yet.

So the motor runs hot - an auxiliary fan might be in order.

Take care,
DBN

---------------------------------
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A lot of people building their own computer do much the same and think
they need better CPU cooling if the CPU temp gets up to 120F.

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., Michael Taglieri
<miket--nyc@...> wrote:

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:25:41 -0000 "houe2005" <houe2005@...>
writes:

Remember what might seem hot to us is just getting warmed up for

electronics.

People make the same mistake with oil temperatures. I have a Norton
motorcycle whose dry-sump engine holds the engine oil in a separate

tank.

Fellow owners on Internet groups are always fitting oil coolers on

these

bikes because they feel the oil tank and "it feels so hot." But

it's not

hot by engine standards -- 200? or so is normal operating

temperature for

oil a warmed-up engine.

Mike Taglieri miket--nyc@...

Everyone has his reasons.
- Jean Renoir "The Rules of the Game"