Diamond doesn't normally do well on steel, need
to keep it good and cool.? Diamond burns (just expensive coal,
after all) and can also be absorbed by hot steel.
On 07/21/2017 09:29 AM, Mario Mohl
mario.mohl@... [7x12minilathe] wrote:
Do we think these would (reasonably)
drill through HSS ?
Just curious.
--
Jerry Durand, Durand Interstellar, Inc.
tel: +1 408 356-3886
@DurandInterstel
|
??? ??? Yes but note that iron can dissolve carbon. Keep the work
cool/cold with water or oil. What are you doing?? Bill in Boulder
On 7/21/2017 10:29 AM, Mario Mohl
mario.mohl@... [7x12minilathe] wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Do we think these would (reasonably)
drill through HSS ?
Just curious.
|
If the material is not hardened, I would just use a good high-speed steel drill. I would not use any drill from HF since they are suspect. John
On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Mario Mohl mario.mohl@... [7x12minilathe] <7x12minilathe@...> wrote:
?
Do we think these would (reasonably) drill through HSS ?
Just curious.
|
Ordinary high Carbon tool steel is harder than HSS. ?It is, however subject to softening under the heat of removing metal from work in the lathe, ?and even flooded with coolant, will wear dull and need replacement far more often than HSS will. ?HSS will hold its edge even when unlubricated and ?at much higher speeds than will tool steel. ?Diamond tooling will cut other diamonds.
Mert
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Mario Mohl mario.mohl@... [7x12minilathe] <7x12minilathe@...>
To: 7x12minilathe <7x12minilathe@...>
Sent: Fri, Jul 21, 2017 12:29 pm
Subject: [7x12minilathe] diamond bits
Do we think these would (reasonably) drill through HSS ?
Just curious.
|
Do we think these would (reasonably) drill through HSS ?
Just curious.
|
At a used tool place I found a box of old end mills, #7 Brown & Shape
taper (similar to #2 Morse), with no obvious provision for a drawbar or
locking collar.? I was puzzled.? Still am.
Alan
At 11:29 AM 7/21/2017 +0100, you wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
Hi,
The Morse taper is not designed to hold against radial loads - a force
from the side will loosen it.
All the best,
Ian
On 20 Jul 2017, at 16:45, Alan Muller
alan@... [7x12minilathe]
<
7x12minilathe@...> wrote:
?
I've experienced many instances of Morse taper arbors shaking out of
drill press spindles.? It seldom happens with ordinary twist
drills,but it does with wood-drilling spade bits, sanding drums and
wheels, etc.? From my point of view a drill press with provision for
a drawbar would be a more useful tool..? (But, of course, ordinary
drilling arbors are seldom threaded for a drawbar.....)
am
At 04:02 PM 7/19/2017 +0800, you wrote:
?
Sorry the last sentance should read
?"prefer held by a drawbar and not arbor"
Sent from my Samsung device
-------- Original message --------
From: "davebjames
davebjames@...
[7x12minilathe]"
<
7x12minilathe@...>
Date: 19/07/2017 3:56 p.m. (GMT+08:00)
To: 7x12minilathe
<
7x12minilathe@...>
Subject: Re: SV: [7x12minilathe] Taper size
?
Richard,
I started all of this. All I am saying is in my milling machine when I
put in an MT3 arbor with a drill chuck for "DRILLING ONLY" I
use a drawbar because I think it's a good idea.
In a drilling machine the MT arbor is in there so tight as it never gets
removed so it should not fall out.? Whereas in a milling machine I
remove an arbor maybe 3 or 4 times a day and I don't tighten them tightly
(just firmly) to enable easy removal.
For safety reason I think I prefer it held by an arbor.
Dave
Borneo
Sent from my Samsung device
-------- Original message --------
From: "Richard edelec@...
[7x12minilathe]"
<
7x12minilathe@...>
Date: 19/07/2017 3:18 p.m. (GMT+08:00)
To:
7x12minilathe@...
Subject: Re: SV: [7x12minilathe] Taper size
?
Why oh why do people not read and understand what is written before
making comments!
The original post was in response to the statement that a drill chuck
should be held with an arbor in a milling machine when drilling.
I stated that it should not be necessary as the drill chuck should be
held by the taper exactly as it is in a drill press (with knock out
MT).
At no point did I discuss using a drill chuck to hold a milling cutter.
Hands up all the posters who use a drawbar to retain their chuck in their
tail stock.
Richard
On 19/07/2017 01:30,
old_toolmaker@...
[7x12minilathe] wrote:
?
Richard,
A drawbar is definitely needed in a milling machine. Most end mills have
flutes with a right hand helix which exerts force in a downward direction
which can pull the end mill down and out if a collet. I have seen jobs
ruined such as blind pocket work and mill tables scarred up by an end
mill that drifted downward. This happen most often to the inexperienced
and it has also happened to me until I learned the hard way. Always use a
solid end mill holder of the Weldon type having a set screw on the end
mill flat held in by a draw bar. That is what those flats are for besides
preventing rotation of the end mill in the holder. These holders are
available for all standard end mill shank sizes.
Of course there will be instances that prevent one from using these
holders but they are the exception and not the rule.
Dick
|
Hi,
The Morse taper is not designed to hold against radial loads - a force from the side will loosen it.
All the best, Ian
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 20 Jul 2017, at 16:45, Alan Muller alan@... [7x12minilathe] < 7x12minilathe@...> wrote:
?
I've experienced many instances of Morse taper arbors shaking out of
drill press spindles.? It seldom happens with ordinary twist
drills,but it does with wood-drilling spade bits, sanding drums and
wheels, etc.? From my point of view a drill press with provision for
a drawbar would be a more useful tool..? (But, of course, ordinary
drilling arbors are seldom threaded for a drawbar.....)
am
At 04:02 PM 7/19/2017 +0800, you wrote:
?
Sorry the last sentance should read
?"prefer held by a drawbar and not arbor"
Sent from my Samsung device
-------- Original message --------
From: "davebjames davebjames@... [7x12minilathe]"
<7x12minilathe@...>
Date: 19/07/2017 3:56 p.m. (GMT+08:00)
To: 7x12minilathe <7x12minilathe@...>
Subject: Re: SV: [7x12minilathe] Taper size
?
Richard,
I started all of this. All I am saying is in my milling machine when I
put in an MT3 arbor with a drill chuck for "DRILLING ONLY" I
use a drawbar because I think it's a good idea.
In a drilling machine the MT arbor is in there so tight as it never gets
removed so it should not fall out.? Whereas in a milling machine I
remove an arbor maybe 3 or 4 times a day and I don't tighten them tightly
(just firmly) to enable easy removal.
For safety reason I think I prefer it held by an arbor.
Dave
Borneo
Sent from my Samsung device
-------- Original message --------
From: "Richard edelec@... [7x12minilathe]"
<7x12minilathe@...>
Date: 19/07/2017 3:18 p.m. (GMT+08:00)
To: 7x12minilathe@...
Subject: Re: SV: [7x12minilathe] Taper size
?
Why oh why do people not read and understand what is written before
making comments!
The original post was in response to the statement that a drill chuck
should be held with an arbor in a milling machine when drilling.
I stated that it should not be necessary as the drill chuck should be
held by the taper exactly as it is in a drill press (with knock out
MT).
At no point did I discuss using a drill chuck to hold a milling cutter.
Hands up all the posters who use a drawbar to retain their chuck in their
tail stock.
Richard
On 19/07/2017 01:30,
old_toolmaker@...
[7x12minilathe] wrote:
?
Richard,
A drawbar is definitely needed in a milling machine. Most end mills have
flutes with a right hand helix which exerts force in a downward direction
which can pull the end mill down and out if a collet. I have seen jobs
ruined such as blind pocket work and mill tables scarred up by an end
mill that drifted downward. This happen most often to the inexperienced
and it has also happened to me until I learned the hard way. Always use a
solid end mill holder of the Weldon type having a set screw on the end
mill flat held in by a draw bar. That is what those flats are for besides
preventing rotation of the end mill in the holder. These holders are
available for all standard end mill shank sizes.
Of course there will be instances that prevent one from using these
holders but they are the exception and not the rule.
Dick
|
One solution I've tried is to use a bearing, or a live center, to push
against the end of the sanding drum arbor or whatever.? This
complicates the setup a bit but can reliably hold the arbor in the
spindle.
At 10:31 PM 7/20/2017 +0000, you wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
>Sanding drums and wheels etc are side loading and non preferred in a
non drawbar MT.
Yeah, I started avoiding that on my press years ago when I learned that,
but still end up doing it occasionally.
Does anybody think you might be able to mount a couple bearings or wheels
on a bar or piece of wood, then clamp them to the drill press table to
act sort of like a horizontal follower rest against the rear of the
sanding drum,etc.? Seems easy enough, but would that block enough of the
side pressure? I think I asked about it on a bump knurler here, but the
issue of the follower wheels crushing the newly knurled pattern came up.
Seems like if you're only pressing against a sanding drum it wouldn't
matter.
?
|
I've used sanding drums, etc with non-hardened arbors in a drill
press chuck for years with little in the way of exciting
incidents.?
I think one may need to stay within the parameters of the
original question....? Hardened tools, tapered items that should
or should not have some form of retainer while in
use...(deliberately avoided saying drawbar).
Using tools as designed is seldom a path to disaster.....
Warren L
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
>Sanding drums and wheels etc are side loading and non
preferred in a
non drawbar MT.
Yeah, I started avoiding that on my press years ago when I
learned that, but still end up doing it occasionally.
Does anybody think you might be able to mount a couple
bearings or wheels on a bar or piece of wood, then clamp
them to the drill press table to act sort of like a
horizontal follower rest against the rear of the sanding
drum,etc.? Seems easy enough, but would that block enough
of the side pressure? I think I asked about it on a bump
knurler here, but the issue of the follower wheels
crushing the newly knurled pattern came up. Seems like if
you're only pressing against a sanding drum it wouldn't
matter.
?
|
|
This email has been checked for
viruses by AVG antivirus software.
|
|
>Sanding drums and wheels etc are side loading and non preferred in a
non drawbar MT.
Yeah, I started avoiding that on my press years ago when I learned that, but still end up doing it occasionally.
Does anybody think you might be able to mount a couple bearings or wheels on a bar or piece of wood, then clamp them to the drill press table to act sort of like a horizontal follower rest against the rear of the sanding drum,etc.? Seems easy enough, but would that block enough of the side pressure? I think I asked about it on a bump knurler here, but the issue of the follower wheels crushing the newly knurled pattern came up. Seems like if you're only pressing against a sanding drum it wouldn't matter.
?
|
I designed this for my X2 you will need to change for other machines. I thought I would need ball bearings between nut and top hat but not necessary. ATB Richard On 20/07/2017 07:36, Pigi pigi@... [7x12minilathe] wrote:
Hei,
Is it possible to have drawing ?
I will be very interessed !
Thanks in advance
Pigi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
Sanding drums and wheels etc are side loading and non preferred in a
non drawbar MT. Not sure why you should have had a problem with the
spade type bit.
ATB
Richard
On 20/07/2017 16:45, Alan Muller
alan@... [7x12minilathe] wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
???
I've experienced many instances of Morse taper arbors
shaking out of
drill press spindles.??? It seldom happens with ordinary
twist
drills,but it does with wood-drilling spade bits, sanding
drums and
wheels, etc.??? From my point of view a drill press with
provision for
a drawbar would be a more useful tool..??? (But, of course,
ordinary
drilling arbors are seldom threaded for a drawbar.....)
am
At 04:02 PM 7/19/2017 +0800, you wrote:
???
Sorry the last sentance should read
???"prefer held by a drawbar and not arbor"
Sent from my Samsung device
-------- Original message --------
From: "davebjames davebjames@... [7x12minilathe]"
<7x12minilathe@...>
Date: 19/07/2017 3:56 p.m. (GMT+08:00)
To: 7x12minilathe <7x12minilathe@...>
Subject: Re: SV: [7x12minilathe] Taper size
???
Richard,
I started all of this. All I am saying is in my milling
machine when I
put in an MT3 arbor with a drill chuck for "DRILLING ONLY"
I
use a drawbar because I think it's a good idea.
In a drilling machine the MT arbor is in there so tight as
it never gets
removed so it should not fall out.??? Whereas in a milling
machine I
remove an arbor maybe 3 or 4 times a day and I don't
tighten them tightly
(just firmly) to enable easy removal.
For safety reason I think I prefer it held by an arbor.
Dave
Borneo
Sent from my Samsung device
-------- Original message --------
From: "Richard edelec@... [7x12minilathe]"
<7x12minilathe@...>
Date: 19/07/2017 3:18 p.m. (GMT+08:00)
To: 7x12minilathe@...
Subject: Re: SV: [7x12minilathe] Taper size
???
Why oh why do people not read and understand what is
written before
making comments!
The original post was in response to the statement that a
drill chuck
should be held with an arbor in a milling machine when
drilling.
I stated that it should not be necessary as the drill
chuck should be
held by the taper exactly as it is in a drill press (with
knock out
MT).
At no point did I discuss using a drill chuck to hold a
milling cutter.
Hands up all the posters who use a drawbar to retain their
chuck in their
tail stock.
Richard
On 19/07/2017 01:30,
old_toolmaker@...
[7x12minilathe] wrote:
???
Richard,
A drawbar is definitely needed in a milling machine.
Most end mills have
flutes with a right hand helix which exerts force in a
downward direction
which can pull the end mill down and out if a collet. I
have seen jobs
ruined such as blind pocket work and mill tables scarred
up by an end
mill that drifted downward. This happen most often to
the inexperienced
and it has also happened to me until I learned the hard
way. Always use a
solid end mill holder of the Weldon type having a set
screw on the end
mill flat held in by a draw bar. That is what those
flats are for besides
preventing rotation of the end mill in the holder. These
holders are
available for all standard end mill shank sizes.
Of course there will be instances that prevent one from
using these
holders but they are the exception and not the rule.
Dick
|
I've experienced many instances of Morse taper arbors shaking out of
drill press spindles.? It seldom happens with ordinary twist
drills,but it does with wood-drilling spade bits, sanding drums and
wheels, etc.? From my point of view a drill press with provision for
a drawbar would be a more useful tool..? (But, of course, ordinary
drilling arbors are seldom threaded for a drawbar.....)
am
At 04:02 PM 7/19/2017 +0800, you wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
Sorry the last sentance should read
?"prefer held by a drawbar and not arbor"
Sent from my Samsung device
-------- Original message --------
From: "davebjames davebjames@... [7x12minilathe]"
<7x12minilathe@...>
Date: 19/07/2017 3:56 p.m. (GMT+08:00)
To: 7x12minilathe <7x12minilathe@...>
Subject: Re: SV: [7x12minilathe] Taper size
?
Richard,
I started all of this. All I am saying is in my milling machine when I
put in an MT3 arbor with a drill chuck for "DRILLING ONLY" I
use a drawbar because I think it's a good idea.
In a drilling machine the MT arbor is in there so tight as it never gets
removed so it should not fall out.? Whereas in a milling machine I
remove an arbor maybe 3 or 4 times a day and I don't tighten them tightly
(just firmly) to enable easy removal.
For safety reason I think I prefer it held by an arbor.
Dave
Borneo
Sent from my Samsung device
-------- Original message --------
From: "Richard edelec@... [7x12minilathe]"
<7x12minilathe@...>
Date: 19/07/2017 3:18 p.m. (GMT+08:00)
To: 7x12minilathe@...
Subject: Re: SV: [7x12minilathe] Taper size
?
Why oh why do people not read and understand what is written before
making comments!
The original post was in response to the statement that a drill chuck
should be held with an arbor in a milling machine when drilling.
I stated that it should not be necessary as the drill chuck should be
held by the taper exactly as it is in a drill press (with knock out
MT).
At no point did I discuss using a drill chuck to hold a milling cutter.
Hands up all the posters who use a drawbar to retain their chuck in their
tail stock.
Richard
On 19/07/2017 01:30,
old_toolmaker@...
[7x12minilathe] wrote:
?
Richard,
A drawbar is definitely needed in a milling machine. Most end mills have
flutes with a right hand helix which exerts force in a downward direction
which can pull the end mill down and out if a collet. I have seen jobs
ruined such as blind pocket work and mill tables scarred up by an end
mill that drifted downward. This happen most often to the inexperienced
and it has also happened to me until I learned the hard way. Always use a
solid end mill holder of the Weldon type having a set screw on the end
mill flat held in by a draw bar. That is what those flats are for besides
preventing rotation of the end mill in the holder. These holders are
available for all standard end mill shank sizes.
Of course there will be instances that prevent one from using these
holders but they are the exception and not the rule.
Dick
|
I definitely agree with this.? I have an M head Bridgeport mill with
a #2 Morse taper that the previous owner gave up on because a collet was
so thoroughly stuck in the spindle.? I got it out but it was a
project.? A two-angle "R8" type spindle taper is a much
better design.
am
At 09:03 AM 7/19/2017 +0100, you wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
I article <8736fc62-0777-1c69-cbf4-cd21bed4c6a0@...>,
Richard edelec@... [7x12minilathe]
<7x12minilathe@...>
wrote:
> He did not say he was milling, he was drilling hence my query as to
why
> it was thought he needed a draw bar!
Many milling machines and Mill/drills have alternative tapers to the
Morse. The Morse taper is a "holding" taper which is why it
requires
significant force on the end of the drawbar to loosen it.
To get round this issue, alternative tapers were introduced. Mine has
an
R8, which is probably the most common on small mills. The R8 is a
guiding
taper but does not grip with great force, which is one reason a drawbar
is
necessary. To release mine requires only a light tap with a small
soft-faced hammer.
For anyone contemplating buying a mill I would say shun the Morse and
go
for an R8 taper
--
Stuart.
|
I'm fortunate that the Atlas TH42 AKA 10F 10"X24" lathe I found a year or so ago also uses the ?MT3 & MT2 tooling I got for my HF 7X10. I could have used the 5" 4-jaw & 3" 3-jaw. Just needed to make appropriate backplates for them. Decided to wait until my skills improve a bit more. Bought a 6" 4- jaw for it, and a blank backplate for that eventuality.
Bill in OKC?
Sent from my Sprint Phone.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: "em ____ weeds100@... [7x12minilathe]" <7x12minilathe@...> Date: 7/20/17 8:52 AM (GMT-06:00) To: 7x12minilathe@... Subject: Re: SV: [7x12minilathe] Taper size
Adding another data point, I have a Zoerman-Clark small?metal lathe (circa 1940) that has MT0 in both the spindle and tailstock. ?It took a long time to find a new dead center.
I hope to pass this lathe on to a museum or something.
Gene McGough
New Mexico
From: 7x12minilathe@... <7x12minilathe@...> on behalf of Warren LeMay notebook@... [7x12minilathe] <7x12minilathe@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 12:09 PM
?
?
Check for sure on both ends Stuart before you buy things..... the most common config (if the headstock has not been altered) is MT3 on the spindle and MT2 on the tailstock.
MT3-MT2 adapters are around and cheap if you get in a fix.? I have things that use from MT1 through 3, and have a 3-2 and a 2-1 adapter at the ready (I have some older arbors that are MT1).?
Warren L
|
Adding another data point, I have a Zoerman-Clark small?metal lathe (circa 1940) that has MT0 in both the spindle and tailstock. ?It took a long time to find a new dead center.
I hope to pass this lathe on to a museum or something.
Gene McGough
New Mexico
From: 7x12minilathe@... <7x12minilathe@...> on behalf of Warren LeMay notebook@... [7x12minilathe] <7x12minilathe@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 12:09 PM
?
?
Check for sure on both ends Stuart before you buy things..... the most common config (if the headstock has not been altered) is MT3 on the spindle and MT2 on the tailstock.
MT3-MT2 adapters are around and cheap if you get in a fix.? I have things that use from MT1 through 3, and have a 3-2 and a 2-1 adapter at the ready (I have some older arbors that are MT1).?
Warren L
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
|
Me for one. Well, the drawbar is my hand and I use it, where necessary, to ensure the chuck stays steady. Indeed it is recommended when drilling on a woodturning lathe. Don't forget, another reason a drawbar is used on a vertical mill, is that gravity is against you, whereas on the lathe, the chuck won't drop out ! Cheers. ??????? ??Ellis ? ? ?
Hands up all the posters who use a drawbar to retain their chuck in their tail stock.
Richard
|
In article <b159cc36-7ba7-1230-5c2c-1d507fb51cdc@...>, Warren LeMay notebook@... [7x12minilathe] <7x12minilathe@...> wrote: Check for sure on both ends Stuart before you buy things..... the most
common config (if the headstock has not been altered) is MT3 on the
spindle and MT2 on the tailstock. MT3-MT2 adapters are around and cheap if you get in a fix. I have
things that use from MT1 through 3, and have a 3-2 and a 2-1 adapter at
the ready (I have some older arbors that are MT1). Yes. -- Stuart.
|
Hei,
Is it possible to have drawing ?
?
I will be very interessed !
?
?
Thanks in advance
?
Pigi
|
I figured it was a focus thing. In a lathe what mostly goes in the headstock is material not tools. A mill is the opposite. People have done both where it made sense to them or there wasn't a better choice. But the normal way for most folks is the standard way. Amateurs often find ways to do things they don't teach in the classes. I'm taking a class now, but I've been reading about this stuff for 44 years. Working in metals 8 or 9 years longer with only hand tools. My GI Joe had swords, steel-tipped arrows, and other goodies when I was 10. :)
Wish I'd had a lathe then! AND that I'd paid a lot more attention when I finally did get to play with one at 18.
Bill in OKC
Sent from my Sprint Phone.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: "lists Stuartlists@... [7x12minilathe]" <7x12minilathe@...> Date: 7/19/17 4:20 PM (GMT-06:00) To: 7x12minilathe@... Subject: Re: SV: [7x12minilathe] Taper size
In article <831738.72931.bm@...>,
wmrmeyers wmrmeyers@... [7x12minilathe]
<7x12minilathe@...> wrote:
> Is that tailstock or spindle? All the 7x mini-lathes from China thst
> I've seen have an MT2 tailstock and MT3 spindle. About a dozen in total
> so not a comprehensive sample, but I do read a lot. Bill in OKC
Sorry missed off "tailstock"
--
Stuart.
|
John Mattis
Warren LeMay