On 01/16/2024 3:46 PM EST chrisser via groups.io <chris.kucia@...> wrote:

?

?

"I remember one of the principals I worked for saying “those who can do, and those who can’t take shop.” He also sent his lots of his personal items down to us for repairs."

?

I can't help but laugh.? When I went to college, during orientation while parents were still around, the dean gave a little presentation.??

?

During part of it, he said "Those who can do, do.? Those who can't do, teach.? Those who can't teach become administrators".? My Dad thought that was hilarious (I was the first in my family to go to college)

?

In retrospect, I'm thinking the Dean had more wisdom than the Principal.

?

?

Another education story I have involves my Mom.? She insisted I take typing as she was a receptionist/typist and was sure it would make me more proficient in college typing papers.

Few years after I graduated, she ended up being on school admin staff and they were cancelling the typing classes.? The head science teacher said that typing didn't make sense to learn, as we'd be talking to computers soon enough that typing will be obsolete.? Mom disagreed, but had no power to do anything about it.??

?

This was in the late 80s.? I graduated from college in 1990 and went right into IT.? Ironically, I never had to write a paper in college, but I can sure out-type most of my IT colleagues, both in speed and accuracy, which has been immeasurably useful and continues to be.

I feel sorry for the kids educated in the years since who never learned to type because some high school science teacher couldn't predict the future very well.

?

?

?

?

?

?

On Tuesday, January 16th, 2024 at 3:33 PM, Thomas Key <takey89@...> wrote:

I was a HS shop teacher from 1971-2008, in drafting, woodworking, plastics technology and a little metals. At my last school we taught plastics, wood, graphics, drafting, electronics, metals, aeronautics and auto. Our department had 12 full time teachers and all our classes (72 classes each day) were filled.

?

In the late 80’s early 90’s we got a new superintendent who decided every student needed a college education, which meant voc ed needed to go. At the same time teacher training programs for industrial studies were closed which excelled the demise of shop classes.

?

I have a good friend, much younger than me, who is very involved in AI and contends it will eliminate a HUGE number of computer science jobs. However, those with “hands on” skills will be in high demand.

?

Hopefully school districts will be willing to rebuild their vocational skills programs and be able to find qualified instructors teach them.

?

Side note…one of my sons who lived for metal shop in HS went to Cal Poly SLO and earned a degree in international business. He hated working in an office so found a job building metal plating labs, then moved on to construction. Almost ten years later he decided to go back to school and earned a BS and MS in mechanical engineering. After graduation he once again ended up in a cubical crunching numbers on designs for space stuff. Once again it was not his cup of tea. But all has turned out well and he now has a job that he describes as “HS metal shop on steroids”. He designs and fabricates specializes instruments for companies like Lawrence Livermore Labs. He uses lathes, mills, grinders, welders, etc and is in 7th heaven.

?

I remember one of the principals I worked for saying “those who can do, and those who can’t take shop.” He also sent his lots of his personal items down to us for repairs.

?

Thanks for reading.

?

Tom

On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 11:48 AM Ralph Lehotsky <ralphlehotsky@...> wrote:

I think it would be good for the high school systems to reinstate a modern version of "metal shop" and "wood Shop" back into their curriculums. There are very few trade schools left in the country, so college dropouts have nothing to fall back on, and if they are lucky enough to find a job, they have to trained there. All kids cannot be employed in computer science, and there is a definite need for skilled operators in todays manufacturing world.

Just my humble opinion,
ralphie

?

?

I was a HS shop teacher from 1971-2008, in drafting, woodworking, plastics technology and a little metals. At my last school we taught plastics, wood, graphics, drafting, electronics, metals, aeronautics and auto. Our department had 12 full time teachers and all our classes (72 classes each day) were filled.

In the late 80’s early 90’s we got a new superintendent who decided every student needed a college education, which meant voc ed needed to go. At the same time teacher training programs for industrial studies were closed which excelled the demise of shop classes.

I have a good friend, much younger than me, who is very involved in AI and contends it will eliminate a HUGE number of computer science jobs. However, those with “hands on” skills will be in high demand.

Hopefully school districts will be willing to rebuild their vocational skills programs and be able to find qualified instructors teach them.

Side note…one of my sons who lived for metal shop in HS went to Cal Poly SLO and earned a degree in international business. He hated working in an office so found a job building metal plating labs, then moved on to construction. Almost ten years later he decided to go back to school and earned a BS and MS in mechanical engineering. After graduation he once again ended up in a cubical crunching numbers on designs for space stuff. Once again it was not his cup of tea. But all has turned out well and he now has a job that he describes as “HS metal shop on steroids”. He designs and fabricates specializes instruments for companies like Lawrence Livermore Labs. He uses lathes, mills, grinders, welders, etc and is in 7th heaven.

I remember one of the principals I worked for saying “those who can do, and those who can’t take shop.” He also sent his lots of his personal items down to us for repairs.

Thanks for reading.

Tom

On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 11:48 AM Ralph Lehotsky <ralphlehotsky@...> wrote:

I think it would be good for the high school systems to reinstate a modern version of "metal shop" and "wood Shop" back into their curriculums. There are very few trade schools left in the country, so college dropouts have nothing to fall back on, and if they are lucky enough to find a job, they have to trained there. All kids cannot be employed in computer science, and there is a definite need for skilled operators in todays manufacturing world.

Just my humble opinion,
ralphie

A question arises "How precise do wooden threads need to be?" These are wooden Jogenson clamps? Bill

On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 12:17?PM mike allen <animal@...> wrote:

Depending on the length of the thread & diameter of the piece ya may be needin to use a Follower rest in the setup .

good luck , & remember pictures or it didn't happen

animal

On 1/16/24 8:36 AM, Bruce J wrote:

On Jan 16, 2024, at 12:39 AM, DAVID WILLIAMS via <d.i.williams@...> wrote:

Dear All,

I realise this is both part Mini lathe and part wood lathe. But to me the metal lathe part is more important. Hence my question to you all.

I have a couple of these old wooden clamps - probably antique. They are just like the metalwork ones we use, but much much larger. One has a severely damaged (external) threads.

I would like to try(?) and cut the replacement long wooden thread on my 7 x 12. So, I bought a second hand thread chaser on eBay. It’s 6 TPI and according to the chart on the Little Machine Shop site - the gear set up is no problem on my imperial lathe.
[JFI it’s Real Bull model purchased from Chester Machines (in the UK) some 20+ years ago. If that’s at all relevant?]

You can chuck an appropriate dowel and single thread it to start, but make sure what thread it is it might be some form similar to an acme thread. You may well have to grind your own threading tool.

You can use a chaser tool, (they used to be used for cutting threads in metal, too) but be prepared to practice. In metal they were also often used freehand ;ike on a wood lathe.

With the coarse thread, you may well be better off with a hand crank on the lathe, too.

The thread chaser cuts multiple threads at the same time and the tool (normally hand held I understand) needs to be held at ~ 90 degrees to the thread, unlike the usual angle for cutting one side of a metal thread. OR, if you are doing it by hand, do you angle the thread chaser so it cuts a series of slightly deeper threads. Thus the tool needs to be held in the tool post at a similar angle?

I’ll have to dig out my wood lathe books, but this article on chasing threads pn a wood lathe indicates not.

Assuming I can sharpen it correctly and clamp it to the tool post, can anyone offer any suggestions or guidance? Do you cut it in multiple passes, in a similar way to a metal thread?
I assume I’m going to have to make and use some sort of a travelling steady. My idea is to clamp it in the chuck and use a small freely rotating chuck at the tailstock end.

I believe I can get a much better quality and accurate thread using the gears than trying to use it hand held - on a very long tool holder, the same as the ones on a wood lathe. I have to check but I think the wood for the screws is normally Beech, if that’s relevant?

You want very hard wood Beech is one, or lignum vitae etc. the article above lists some suitable species.

Thank you in anticipation.

David of Abingdon(UK)

--

Bruce Johnson

"Wherever you go, there you are." B. Banzai, PhD

On Jan 16, 2024, at 12:39 AM, DAVID WILLIAMS via <d.i.williams@...> wrote:

Dear All,

I realise this is both part Mini lathe and part wood lathe. But to me the metal lathe part is more important. Hence my question to you all.

I have a couple of these old wooden clamps - probably antique. They are just like the metalwork ones we use, but much much larger. One has a severely damaged (external) threads.

I would like to try(?) and cut the replacement long wooden thread on my 7 x 12. So, I bought a second hand thread chaser on eBay. It’s 6 TPI and according to the chart on the Little Machine Shop site - the gear set up is no problem on my imperial lathe.
[JFI it’s Real Bull model purchased from Chester Machines (in the UK) some 20+ years ago. If that’s at all relevant?]

You can chuck an appropriate dowel and single thread it to start, but make sure what thread it is it might be some form similar to an acme thread. You may well have to grind your own threading tool.

You can use a chaser tool, (they used to be used for cutting threads in metal, too) but be prepared to practice. In metal they were also often used freehand ;ike on a wood lathe.?

With the coarse thread, you may well be better off with a hand crank on the lathe, too.

The thread chaser cuts multiple threads at the same time and the tool (normally hand held I understand) needs to be held at ~ 90 degrees to the thread, unlike the usual angle for cutting one side of a metal thread. OR, if you are doing it by hand, do you angle the thread chaser so it cuts a series of slightly deeper threads. Thus the tool needs to be held in the tool post at a similar angle?

I’ll have to dig out my wood lathe books, but this article on chasing threads pn a wood lathe indicates not.

Assuming I can sharpen it correctly and clamp it to the tool post, can anyone offer any suggestions or guidance? Do you cut it in multiple passes, in a similar way to a metal thread?
I assume I’m going to have to make and use some sort of a travelling steady. My idea is to clamp it in the chuck and use a small freely rotating chuck at the tailstock end.

I believe I can get a much better quality and accurate thread using the gears than trying to use it hand held - on a very long tool holder, the same as the ones on a wood lathe. I have to check but I think the wood for the screws is normally Beech, if that’s relevant?

You want very hard wood Beech is one, or lignum vitae etc. the article above lists some suitable species.

Thank you in anticipation.

David of Abingdon(UK)

--?

Bruce Johnson

"Wherever you go, there you are." B. Banzai, PhD

Rhetorical question (don’t answer)… What decade was it when you were 9? ? I bet it was back in the days when manual lathes with hand wheels were still used in manufacturing.

I am subscribed to another forum that deals with vacuum tube electronics and we sometimes see posts about how to get kids interested in vacuum tubes. ? ?The answer is “You can’t”. OK, there are some exceptions but mostly you can’t. ? ?The reason the old guys are on that forum is that this was the electronic technology of their youth, Some of them never got around to understanding transistors or digital stuff or computers.

I hate to say it but many people who are using manual machine tools are like the vacuum tube guys, this was the technology when they were young.

Kids don’t have this background, they don’t remember a time when vacuum tubes and gears and electric motors were called “high tech”. ? ?To them the way you make a widget is you design it on a computer screen and then send the design files off to some automation. ?It makes the part and FedEx drops it off at the house.

Nothing is wromng with being a fan of mid-20th-century technology. ?I’m subscribed to forums on machine tools and vacuum tubes and I’ve owned sailboats. ?A couple of people I know even own horses.?

With the vacuum tubes, the way to interest a 15-year-old is with guitar amplifiers. ?That is something they can relate to. ?In other words, the tubes are a means to something else, not an end in itself. ? ? With machine tools, the way to go is to get them into making mechanical stuff and a lathe is just one of the tools they will need. ? So, how would you get a kid interested in hammers? ?You don’t, you introduce him to carpentry.

Robots and other things that move are interesting to some kids. ?It is easy to find kids who a fanatically interested in robots and other kinds of robot-like machines.?

I used to teach at a high school (as a second career after retiring from engineering) so I have some background with kids. ?Most are into other things but a few were pretty darn serious about robot competitions and building and designing these machines and because of this they were motivated to learn the tools. ?Tools were the basic shop tools from the 1950’s like a drill press, metal brake, mill,… ?and so on. ?But also modern tools like 3D CAD, 3D printing, and CNC. ? Get a smart kid motivated to a goal and he or she will learn the tools. ?Yes “she”, ?many more girls then you’d think were there. ?In fact they tend to be the smart ones who can use computers and do math. ? High school is an interesting age span. ? They start with just basic elementary school skills and some of them by the time they are seniors have completed physics and calculus classes and have some elementary computer programming skills. ?

So in short, ypu have to find a way to connect the mid 20th century tools with the interst of earth 21st century kids. ? It can be done. ? But if they don’t see the connection, it will not work.

On Jan 15, 2024, at 11:20?AM, davesmith1800 <davesmith1@...> wrote:

I was 9 running a lathe.?
Great fun making a canon too.

Dave?

On 16 Jan 2024, at 01:25, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:

?

??? ?? I grew up in the US , I'm 67 now & I can remember going to friends houses & going through the garage & seeing small Craftsman , South Bend & Logan lathes on their dads bench .Some of them may have had a Burke,? Atlas? or a Duro horizontal lathe to go with the lathe maybe a drill press & almost always a bench grinder? . Often enough there would be a copy of Popular Mechanics , Mechanix Illistrated & such mag open to a page with the project they were trying to build? with their coveted machines . As most kids started growing up there seemed to be many other things to grab their interest then dad's old crap & when pop died that stuff usually ended up in the dump unfortunately . Now this is just my thinking , but to me it seems like you folks over in England kept this hobby going in your land while it all but disappeared? over here in the US . From what I have read & can see there has always been a large amount of home engineers in England making these beautiful steam engines there are pictures of all over the net ( thank you for that )? I'm not sure what caused it to start gaining ground again over in the US , but it probably had something to do with the internet . When I was a kid I knew that someday I would own one of these machines & it happened @ 20 years back a uncle gave me his early 1900's Seneca FALLS STAR lathe . yea it was rode hard & put up very dry it was still MY lathe . Fortunately for home engineers in the US there are a ton of PL's available today . PL= personal lathe . Another plus for the hobby youtube , & Maker Spaces are popping up all over the place . A guy/gal can join a Maker Space for @ 30-50 bucks a month & see if this hobby is for them , they can get some hands on training / advise & then they can decide " yea I'm gonna go buy that PL " . Some folks have had their lathe for years & have used it a lot but haven't made anything like a special project , but they have spent countless hours making parts to make their lathe better? . Arguing about what is & isn't a mini lathe is alot like pissing up a rope , what does it get you ?

David , your pop's lathe looks like it's a Myford clone ? I see a lot? of those Myford's in the English magazine I subscribe to , seems folks love them .

end of rant?

animal

On 1/15/24 12:36 PM, DAVID WILLIAMS via groups.io wrote:

Dear All,

Just For Information…

Things were different in the late 1950’s. My father taught myself and my older brother to use his lathe about the same age(9). I was so small, I had to stand on a stool to work the controls. Dad was always very close by in his shed (shop as you call it) - Watching me.

I remember getting very frustrated by the very small bore through the headstock. Probably about 6mm (1/4”) possibly even smaller.

Some reminisces …

For those in the UK who are old enough to remember, I believe it was probably(?) a Gamages lathe. Dad had to gear the acme thread lead screw, as it was right handed. He also made a new cross slide (all angles all filed by hand) as the original was a little rough. The lathe is still with my older brother. No markings on the hand wheels etc. Originally driven by a treadle. I remember him converting it in the 1950’s to an electric motor. WOW.?

I’m sure many of you have very similar and more(?) interesting experiences.

I’ve stood over my 8/9 year old grandson, as he machined a piece of plastic at a slow speed. [Delrin(?) or similar.] He was amazed. Yes, he was wearing safety goggles etc. I’m sure many have done similar things.?

Gentlemen, interesting comments on the words ‘Mini Lathe’ and what it can refer to. We never stop learning. Thank you?

David, of Abingdon, UK.

On 15 Jan 2024, at 19:20, davesmith1800 <davesmith1@...> wrote:

?I was 9 running a lathe.?
Great fun making a canon too.

Dave?