Re: Replacement blade guide bearings
Hi Terry
I presume from the header you need new guide bearings.
All Taiwanese and Chinese manufactured saws have metric bearing sizes even if they have UNC threads on their (metric headed) bolts. Some early American made saws had special bearings with a flange on the outer race instead of a rear guide-roller and some had cam-follower bearings, these may have been inch sizes.
The following metric size deep groove ball bearings have been used:
|
Inside Diameter
(mm)
|
Outside
Diameter
(mm)
|
Width
(mm)
|
?±õ²Ô³Ù¡¯±ô.
Bearing code
|
Preferred
Radial Internal Clearance grade
|
Comment
|
|
5
|
16
|
5
|
625
|
MC3
|
as rear guide-roller
|
|
8
|
22
|
7
|
608
|
MC3
|
as rear guide-roller
|
|
9
|
26
|
8
|
629
|
MC3
|
as rear & side guide-rollers
|
|
10
|
26
|
8
|
6000
|
CM or Normal
|
as side guides on later saws
|
|
10
|
30
|
9
|
6200
|
CM or Normal
|
most popular, esp up to y2000 from Taiwan
|
|
12
|
32
|
10
|
6201
|
CM or Normal
|
only some older saws
|
?These bearings are used at v.low speed and low load, so the ABEC rating is not applicable, however the Radial Internal Clearance grading should be considered.
Just measure the bearings ID, OD and Width and pick out the ones you need - jv
|
Re: Replacement blade guide bearings
I just got a bandsaw at a tool sale Model HBS-348, Serial #000756, MFG Date 1983, but no brand identification I can see. The Instruction Manual came with it, but that document has no mention of any company name or address. it's written in rather broken English. This seems to be a fairly early model of what Carey Culpepper wrote about.
Regards,
Terry Lund
|
Re: My mods - blade brush wheel / blade brushes / pulley brushes / chip pan
Good pictures, thanks!
Ralph
[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: removed duplicate pictures, not sure what happened]
I just wanted to share the mods I did for my 4x6.?
The blade brush wheel is made with a 1-1/4" wire brush wheel with 1/4" ID bore, 1/4" mini pillow block bearing, 1/4" x 1" long shoulder bolt, and a plastic spacer I turned on my mini lathe. The mounting bracket is made from a piece of sheet aluminum I had laying around. I painted? it black after it was completed. When I was testing it out, I mounted the pillow block to the bracket with sheet metal screws which were later replaced by #10 machine screws, washers, lock washers and nuts. I cut aluminum a lot and It works very well at removing chips that get stuck in blade.
The other blade brushes keep most of the chips from getting on the guide bearings and pulley. They are made from plastic wire brushes, mounted with metal strips and held by rare earth magnets. The pulley brushes are made from small brass wire brushes mounted to some 90¡ã brackets that I bent open to about 150¡ã and are also held by rare earth magnets. Using magnets allows me to flip the brushes around easily as they wear. All of these brushes might seem overkill, but the brushes that wipe the sides of the blade don't do well at removing chips from the teeth, hence the brush wheel. I can say the inside of the saw is staying about 90% cleaner than it was without them.
The chip pan is a plastic mud pan from Home Depot. It had two black metal strips in it that are for scraping the mud from your mud knife. I cut these and used them for mounting the pan. It's mounted using screws already on the saw for the lock pin and power cord brackets on the inside. I used the slot in the chip pan to hold a piece of aluminum sheet to cover the area leading to underneath the saw, which allow the chips to fall through into the pan.
I will add all of these pics to a folder in photos section, under Rob M.
|
My mods - blade brush wheel / blade brushes / pulley brushes / chip pan
I just wanted to share the mods I did for my 4x6.?
The blade brush wheel is made with a 1-1/4" wire brush wheel with 1/4" ID bore, 1/4" mini pillow block bearing, 1/4" x 1" long shoulder bolt, and a plastic spacer I turned on my mini lathe. The mounting bracket is made from a piece of sheet aluminum I had laying around. I painted? it black after it was completed. When I was testing it out, I mounted the pillow block to the bracket with sheet metal screws which were later replaced by #10 machine screws, washers, lock washers and nuts. I cut aluminum a lot and It works very well at removing chips that get stuck in blade.
The other blade brushes keep most of the chips from getting on the guide bearings and pulley. They are made from plastic wire brushes, mounted with metal strips and held by rare earth magnets. The pulley brushes are made from small brass wire brushes mounted to some 90¡ã brackets that I bent open to about 150¡ã and are also held by rare earth magnets. Using magnets allows me to flip the brushes around easily as they wear. All of these brushes might seem overkill, but the brushes that wipe the sides of the blade don't do well at removing chips from the teeth, hence the brush wheel. I can say the inside of the saw is staying about 90% cleaner than it was without them.
The chip pan is a plastic mud pan from Home Depot. It had two black metal strips in it that are for scraping the mud from your mud knife. I cut these and used them for mounting the pan. It's mounted using screws already on the saw for the lock pin and power cord brackets on the inside. I used the slot in the chip pan to hold a piece of aluminum sheet to cover the area leading to underneath the saw, which allow the chips to fall through into the pan.
I will add all of these pics to a folder in photos section, under Rob M.
|
Re: lubrication of worm gear box
I've been using Super Lube iso 460 synthetic gear oil. It's safe for yellow metals, and is nearly half the price:
|
lubrication of worm gear box
Recently this topic came back up.?? It was
discussed extensively a couple of years ago and based on that, I ordered
a quart of? "Mobile SHC 634 ISO VG460."? This is an
expensive synthetic gear lube claiming to offer "superb wear
protection for bearings and gears."? It's AGMA 7/7S.? I
don't remember where I got it, but Amazon has it for about $37/qt.?
I'm nothing approaching a lubrication engineer.? This just
seemed to come out on top of the discussion, which included some people
seeming to know what they were talking about.? When I cleaned out
the gearbox there was none of the crud some report finding.? It was
clean.
Just posting this now as a found the container.
am
|
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|
Exact post flagged a Spam in another group.?
Gary
On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 11:28:01 AM EDT, Dave via groups.io <abners96@...> wrote:
Hi, where can I get a direction video/manual of the software?
Thanks!
|
??? ??? I think the rule of thumb should be that weather ya buy
yer saw new or used to open it up & check the fluid , check
for fluid , & check the oil seals , mine was bone dry &
had 3 oil seals on one side & none were correctly installed
??? ??? animal
On 8/23/2020 4:17 PM, Robert Downs via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
SAE 85W90.? The
real problem with the later saws made in China instead of
Taiwan is that there is a fair probability that the gearbox
will contain swarf (metal shavings).? So I would just play
it safe, lay the saw over at an angle (so that half of the
oil doesn¡¯t run out on the floor as soon as you break the
seal on the cover) and clean out the gear box.? The newer
the saw is, the more likely that is what you will find.
?
?
?
What do you suggest? Hypoid? 50ish et?
On Aug 22, 2020, at 10:32 AM, Anthony Nagy <ajxnagy@...>
wrote:
Check the gear box for the condition of
the lubricant. Most new machines have very poor quality
lubricant (may look good to the eye but may not have
proper antiwear additives) that may also be contaminated.
I suggest changing it out for a quality lubricant.
|
SAE 85W90.? The real problem with the later saws made in China instead of Taiwan is that there is a fair probability that the gearbox will contain swarf (metal shavings).? So I would just play it safe, lay the saw over at an angle (so that half of the oil doesn¡¯t run out on the floor as soon as you break the seal on the cover) and clean out the gear box.? The newer the saw is, the more likely that is what you will find. ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chuck Peterson
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2020 11:52
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Drive belt tension? What do you suggest? Hypoid? 50ish et?
On Aug 22, 2020, at 10:32 AM, Anthony Nagy <ajxnagy@...> wrote:
Check the gear box for the condition of the lubricant. Most new machines have very poor quality lubricant (may look good to the eye but may not have proper antiwear additives) that may also be contaminated. I suggest changing it out for a quality lubricant.
|
Interesting, I got my Buffalo saw in about 1981 and it has seen a lot of use since. The gear set in my saw came packed with grease. It has been changed multiple times as seems to like White Lithium Grease. Saw recently cut 400 pieces of 2" 1144 StressProof for an order of rotary selector cams. Using a Bi-Metal blade the cuts ran about 1-1/2 to 2 minutes.
gary
On Sunday, August 23, 2020, 01:03:53 PM CDT, Alan Muller <alan@...> wrote:
Good point.? Worm gears are high friction devices and
need proper lubrication.
At 09:32 AM 8/22/2020 -0700, you wrote:
Check the gear box for the
condition of the lubricant. Most new machines have very poor quality
lubricant (may look good to the eye but may not have proper antiwear
additives) that may also be contaminated. I suggest changing it out for a
quality lubricant.
|
Congratulations to John Vreede for another insightful post that keeps us focused on the practical issues, like the fact that our HF 4 X 6 saws never need the power transmission capacity of any of the belts
we are discussing, regardless of the belt type or pulley geometry. His earlier post was also valuable because it pointed out that a lot of the belt associated vibration problems with the HF band saw are related to the flimsy construction of the HF motor mount
and sheet metal stand. If I think of the relative structural integrity of my Burke #4 mill or Atlas 10¡± lathe, where the spindles run in Timken roller bearings mounted in iron castings, it¡¯s pretty obvious why we have vibration issues with the HF band saw.
?
Congratulations to Robert Downs, too, for not
commenting on link-belts versus V-belts and risking reopening that long-running and inherently inconclusive thread. BUT¡ I use link belts on the Burke and the Atlas because, in both cases, the original belts broke when I was in the
middle of a job and I didn¡¯t want to tear down a perfectly good spindle assembly to replace the standard V belts. I don¡¯t use link belts on any of my power tools that permit access to the belts without tearing down the spindle. In one recent case, I had a
V belt fail on a jointer in the middle of a late Saturday night rush to finish a Christmas present. After a few minutes of despair, I realized I could remove one of the link belts from the lathe or mill and adjust its length to fit the jointer. Once the job
was done and my V belt store was open, I put the proper V belt back on the jointer. Since then I keep a length of link belt in the shop, just in case. I don¡¯t have an opinion about whether the link or traditional V belt is better. It doesn¡¯t really matter
in a non-production hobby shop.
?
Sorry for risking reopening that horrible thread, Robert.
|
I use an NLGI 2 extreme pressure (EP) molybdenum containing grease. This is likely overkill for the home shop service but it works well for anti-wear and is compounded for anti-rust and oxidation resistance too. Plus I already had some on the shelf in the garage.?
I made a transparent cover for the gearbox out of 1/4 inch Plexiglas to view the system. The grease film adheres well to the gears mating surfaces which is what is needed for lubrication. There is minimal temperature increase with run time meaning a low friction system.
The drive belt is a link belt - it feels tight to finger pressure but can be deflected by perhaps 1/2 inch. I don't worry too much about this as the belt doesn't slip, doesn't vibrate and the pulleys are in alignment.?
|
What do you suggest? Hypoid? 50ish et?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 22, 2020, at 10:32 AM, Anthony Nagy < ajxnagy@...> wrote: Check the gear box for the condition of the lubricant. Most new machines have very poor quality lubricant (may look good to the eye but may not have proper antiwear additives) that may also be contaminated. I suggest changing it out for a quality lubricant.
|
Good point.? Worm gears are high friction devices and
need proper lubrication.
At 09:32 AM 8/22/2020 -0700, you wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Check the gear box for the
condition of the lubricant. Most new machines have very poor quality
lubricant (may look good to the eye but may not have proper antiwear
additives) that may also be contaminated. I suggest changing it out for a
quality lubricant.
|
Check the gear box for the condition of the lubricant. Most new machines have very poor quality lubricant (may look good to the eye but may not have proper antiwear additives) that may also be contaminated. I suggest changing it out for a quality lubricant.
|
I went to get an AX belt (cog looking one) for my bandsaw at our
local SAECOWilson (Bearings, transmission parts place in New
Zealand) the guys advised me to just get the standard A section
belt. They said for the additional price I wouldn't see any
difference on the 4x6bandsaw, he did explain why and was happy to
sell me whatever I wanted. I don't remember what the reasoning
was. I do enjoy going there as the guys are always very helpful,
open with their advice and normally save me a bunch of $ by coming
away with what I actually need rather than what I thought I
wanted.
I wanted the AX belt as I assumed it would be better on the
smaller diameter pulleys. Unfortunately it was over 8 months ago I
got the replacement belt and I don't remember the discussion,
other than I would have happily paid the extra for the AX belt if
I hadn't been convinced. The new standard belt I got was a lot
more flexible than the old stiff cracked belt I replaced.
I've also improved the rigidity of the motor plate and tension
adjustment, not as well as John Vreede has, however it is a big
improved over the original system.
I'm happy with the standard belt.
Thanks.
Steve
On 23/08/20 10:18 am, Alan Muller
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Interesting discussion.? My suggestion would be to
use
a raw edge "cog" type belt.? "AX" section in
most listings.? These transmit more power for several reasons,
one
being that the lower part of the belt doesn't bulge out as much
when
wrapped to a small radius.
The original point of the "L" belts (light duty) was to work
better on small pulleys than the A belts of the day.? Today, for
most purposes, AX belts are a better solution.? (Perhaps an
exception is when the belt is used as a clutch).
Opinions seem to vary widely on link belts.? I would only use
them
where changing a conventional belt is a big hassle.? Of for
temporary emergency use.
My own experience is that Taiwanese machines from the 80s came
with
crappy belts, and often with pulleys not running true.? Nowadays
most belts seem to be made in Asia.? Many belts sold as
"A" seem to actually be 13 mm and raid high in
grooves.
JMHOa.
At 04:42 PM 8/22/2020 -0500, you wrote:
If you have access
to the actual
original factory drawings of the 2, 3 or 4 step V-pulleys
typically used
on machine tools, you may find that the V-angle is smaller on
the
smallest diameter step than it is on the largest.?? And that
in the
case of 3 or 4-step ones, the angle(s) on the in-between steps
are in
between.?? This is to compensate for the ID being wider when
the
belt is bent around a smaller diameter.?? Whether this is true
of
the Taiwan and/or Chinese made pulleys on the 4x6 band saws, I
don?€?t
know.?? I?€?ve never looked at any of them that closely.??
They
should be but may or may not be.?? I?€?ll skip commenting on
link-belts versus V-belts.
?
Robert Downs
?
From: [email protected]
[
mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John
Vreede
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 15:34
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Drive belt tension
?
It occurred to me why the differences in belt performance are
not that
noticeable.
The 4x6's pulleys are not made to standard so the belt wont be
able to
transmit as much power as its capable of, but a 4x6 is not
using much
power anyway.
When the belt bends around the small 48mm pulley it will
fatten up on the
inside of the bend since the belt cords are all on the
outside.? It
won't fit in the bottom of the 36deg vee (where it would have
if the vee
was only 31deg) so the belt will just ride a little higher up
the
vee? than it should, and the speed increase you should get,
won't be
as great.? The saw won't run quite as fast. but you wont even
notice.??
Gary's post shows the range of machinery where A-section belts
are used,
the Tormach is rated at 1.5HP and jointers, table saws etc can
be 3HP,
where a 4x6 is only 1/2HP at best.? HF and others claim 1HP
motors
(High-school physics says Volts times Amps = Watts and there
are 746W in
a Horsepower, so if the motor draws 6.8A @ 110V = 748W - Hey
that's
1HP!), but that is INPUT power not output, so at 30-40%
efficiency the
HF's motor is only a bit over 1/3HP at best.
NEMA and IEC rate induction motors as 'HP output at a
given rpm',
i.e 1/2HP @ 1425rpm.? When you load them up so the revs drop
below
1425, they give correspondingly higher HP, so a 1/2HP motor
might be
giving more than 1HP just before it stalls. 4x6's are rarely
loaded up so
much, you have to be running 12lb bow weight on high speed to
stall at
the end of a cut? And then its only transmitting ~1HP, when
1/2" A-section belts can transmit 5HP.?
When running near the limit of the belt's power transmission
capacity,
then Gates and Dayco belts win out over cheap OEM belts every
time.
Fennerflex belts are unparalleled if you have to dismantle the
whole
machine just to replace the belt (as I would have had to do
recently on a
friend wood lathe - Fennerflex saved the day),? or have lots
of
machines all running A-section belts, then you willingly pay
the extra
cost - jv??
|
Interesting discussion.? My suggestion would be to use
a raw edge "cog" type belt.? "AX" section in
most listings.? These transmit more power for several reasons, one
being that the lower part of the belt doesn't bulge out as much when
wrapped to a small radius.
The original point of the "L" belts (light duty) was to work
better on small pulleys than the A belts of the day.? Today, for
most purposes, AX belts are a better solution.? (Perhaps an
exception is when the belt is used as a clutch).
Opinions seem to vary widely on link belts.? I would only use them
where changing a conventional belt is a big hassle.? Of for
temporary emergency use.
My own experience is that Taiwanese machines from the 80s came with
crappy belts, and often with pulleys not running true.? Nowadays
most belts seem to be made in Asia.? Many belts sold as
"A" seem to actually be 13 mm and raid high in
grooves.
JMHOa.
At 04:42 PM 8/22/2020 -0500, you wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
If you have access to the actual
original factory drawings of the 2, 3 or 4 step V-pulleys typically used
on machine tools, you may find that the V-angle is smaller on the
smallest diameter step than it is on the largest.?? And that in the
case of 3 or 4-step ones, the angle(s) on the in-between steps are in
between.?? This is to compensate for the ID being wider when the
belt is bent around a smaller diameter.?? Whether this is true of
the Taiwan and/or Chinese made pulleys on the 4x6 band saws, I don?€?t
know.?? I?€?ve never looked at any of them that closely.?? They
should be but may or may not be.?? I?€?ll skip commenting on
link-belts versus V-belts.
?
Robert Downs
?
From: [email protected]
[
mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Vreede
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 15:34
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Drive belt tension
?
It occurred to me why the differences in belt performance are not that
noticeable.
The 4x6's pulleys are not made to standard so the belt wont be able to
transmit as much power as its capable of, but a 4x6 is not using much
power anyway.
When the belt bends around the small 48mm pulley it will fatten up on the
inside of the bend since the belt cords are all on the outside.? It
won't fit in the bottom of the 36deg vee (where it would have if the vee
was only 31deg) so the belt will just ride a little higher up the
vee? than it should, and the speed increase you should get, won't be
as great.? The saw won't run quite as fast. but you wont even
notice.??
Gary's post shows the range of machinery where A-section belts are used,
the Tormach is rated at 1.5HP and jointers, table saws etc can be 3HP,
where a 4x6 is only 1/2HP at best.? HF and others claim 1HP motors
(High-school physics says Volts times Amps = Watts and there are 746W in
a Horsepower, so if the motor draws 6.8A @ 110V = 748W - Hey that's
1HP!), but that is INPUT power not output, so at 30-40% efficiency the
HF's motor is only a bit over 1/3HP at best.
NEMA and IEC rate induction motors as 'HP output at a given rpm',
i.e 1/2HP @ 1425rpm.? When you load them up so the revs drop below
1425, they give correspondingly higher HP, so a 1/2HP motor might be
giving more than 1HP just before it stalls. 4x6's are rarely loaded up so
much, you have to be running 12lb bow weight on high speed to stall at
the end of a cut? And then its only transmitting ~1HP, when
1/2" A-section belts can transmit 5HP.?
When running near the limit of the belt's power transmission capacity,
then Gates and Dayco belts win out over cheap OEM belts every time.
Fennerflex belts are unparalleled if you have to dismantle the whole
machine just to replace the belt (as I would have had to do recently on a
friend wood lathe - Fennerflex saved the day),? or have lots of
machines all running A-section belts, then you willingly pay the extra
cost - jv??
|
If you have access to the actual original factory drawings of the 2, 3 or 4 step V-pulleys typically used on machine tools, you may find that the V-angle is smaller on the smallest diameter step than it is on the largest.? And that in the case of 3 or 4-step ones, the angle(s) on the in-between steps are in between.? This is to compensate for the ID being wider when the belt is bent around a smaller diameter.? Whether this is true of the Taiwan and/or Chinese made pulleys on the 4x6 band saws, I don¡¯t know.? I¡¯ve never looked at any of them that closely.? They should be but may or may not be.? I¡¯ll skip commenting on link-belts versus V-belts. ? Robert Downs ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Vreede
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 15:34
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Drive belt tension? It occurred to me why the differences in belt performance are not that noticeable.
The 4x6's pulleys are not made to standard so the belt wont be able to transmit as much power as its capable of, but a 4x6 is not using much power anyway.
When the belt bends around the small 48mm pulley it will fatten up on the inside of the bend since the belt cords are all on the outside.? It won't fit in the bottom of the 36deg vee (where it would have if the vee was only 31deg) so the belt will just ride a little higher up the vee? than it should, and the speed increase you should get, won't be as great.? The saw won't run quite as fast. but you wont even notice.? ?
Gary's post shows the range of machinery where A-section belts are used, the Tormach is rated at 1.5HP and jointers, table saws etc can be 3HP, where a 4x6 is only 1/2HP at best.? HF and others claim 1HP motors (High-school physics says Volts times Amps = Watts and there are 746W in a Horsepower, so if the motor draws 6.8A @ 110V = 748W - Hey that's 1HP!), but that is INPUT power not output, so at 30-40% efficiency the HF's motor is only a bit over 1/3HP at best.?
NEMA and IEC rate induction motors as 'HP output at a given rpm', i.e 1/2HP @ 1425rpm.? When you load them up so the revs drop below 1425, they give correspondingly higher HP, so a 1/2HP motor might be giving more than 1HP just before it stalls. 4x6's are rarely loaded up so much, you have to be running 12lb bow weight on high speed to stall at the end of a cut? And then its only transmitting ~1HP, when 1/2" A-section belts can transmit 5HP.??
When running near the limit of the belt's power transmission capacity, then Gates and Dayco belts win out over cheap OEM belts every time. Fennerflex belts are unparalleled if you have to dismantle the whole machine just to replace the belt (as I would have had to do recently on a friend wood lathe - Fennerflex saved the day),? or have lots of machines all running A-section belts, then you willingly pay the extra cost - jv??
|
It occurred to me why the differences in belt performance are not that noticeable.
The 4x6's pulleys are not made to standard so the belt wont be able to transmit as much power as its capable of, but a 4x6 is not using much power anyway.
When the belt bends around the small 48mm pulley it will fatten up on the inside of the bend since the belt cords are all on the outside.? It won't fit in the bottom of the 36deg vee (where it would have if the vee was only 31deg) so the belt will just ride a little higher up the vee? than it should, and the speed increase you should get, won't be as great.? The saw won't run quite as fast. but you wont even notice.? ?
Gary's post shows the range of machinery where A-section belts are used, the Tormach is rated at 1.5HP and jointers, table saws etc can be 3HP, where a 4x6 is only 1/2HP at best.? HF and others claim 1HP motors (High-school physics says Volts times Amps = Watts and there are 746W in a Horsepower, so if the motor draws 6.8A @ 110V = 748W - Hey that's 1HP!), but that is INPUT power not output, so at 30-40% efficiency the HF's motor is only a bit over 1/3HP at best.?
NEMA and IEC rate induction motors as 'HP output at a given rpm', i.e. 1/2HP @ 1425rpm.? When you load them up so the revs drop below 1425, they give correspondingly higher HP, so a 1/2HP motor might be giving more than 1HP just before it stalls. 4x6's are rarely loaded up so much, you have to be running 12lb bow weight on high speed to stall at the end of a cut.? And then its only transmitting ~1HP, when 1/2" A-section belts can transmit 5HP.??
When running near the limit of the belt's power transmission capacity, then Gates and Dayco belts win out over cheap OEM belts every time. Fennerflex belts are unparalleled if you have to dismantle the whole machine just to replace the belt (as I would have had to do recently on a friend wood lathe - Fennerflex saved the day),? or have lots of machines all running A-section belts, then you willingly pay the extra cost - jv??
|
John Vreede
Terry Lund
Chuck Peterson