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Hello all, I’d like to start a new topic. It is quite broad and I don’t know what to expect. Maybe I’ll have to narrow it down later on. We’ll see. I’m wondering what the relationship is between the political right / extreme right / alt-right and Rudolph Steiner’s ideas. Are people at the right of the political spectrum aware of these ideas, do they like them, do they matter, do they have any influence,…? Or is it the opposite. Recently there was a Dutch newspaper (De Volkskrant; yes in Holland you can stil use ‘Volk’, now more than ;-) that published an article titled “De vrije school is zeer in trek bij witte ouders, én bij extreemrechts. Wat betekent dat?” (Translation: “Waldorf Schools are very popular with white parents and the extreme right. What does that mean?”) I always had the idea that (a part of) the political left was fond of Steiner. So what’s going on? All input is welcome, Greetings, Kokanje

Hello there, I took a look at the foreword to Miriam Gebhardt's Steiner biography (Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt, 2011) and got stuck on the words “Star Trek”on page 15. Reference is made here to a footnote (No. 3) which says on page 350: “USS Horatio”, an anthroposophical role-playing game based on the TV series ‘Star Trek’. (Translated with DeepL.) I have not found anything else about this on the internet. It's not important either. But Jeez! Maybe someone here knows something. Greetings Finn

Hi All, Once upon a time Dan asked if I would help moderate this group for a while. I am not currently admin and don’t know if Dan is away but I do know the rules well enough to remind us all: All posts must be about Waldorf education or its foundation, Anthroposophy. Do not post non-Waldorf jokes, heart-rending appeals about the Taliban, etc. Thanks, -Walden From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of victor Dijk Sent: October 25, 2024 12:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [waldorf-critics] Steiner and the current political right Finn, The high energy prices have certainly affected the purchasing power of many people in the country. These people now feel sacrificed on the altar of environmental panic. They actually buy considerably less bread. Op vr 25 okt 2024 om 18:05 schreef Finnef via groups.io <vollnormaleforschung@...>: Hello everyone, Apart from the fact that there are many well-known right-wing anthroposophists in Germany, there are voices in the anthroposophical press that speak out against anti-fascist strivings of the civil society. If we look at large demonstrations for democracy last winter, the so-called liberal anthroposophists Jens Heisterkamp and Wolfgang Held are among them. While anthroposophists are very persistent behind homeopathy, antivax or criticism of transhumanism, anthroposophical anti-fascism is as quiet as a mouse. @victor: "People would rather eat bad bread than no bread." This is sadly true for people who have no other option. But for whom is this a real danger? In the political elections of wealthy countries, nobody is affected by this, especially people who can afford Waldorf schools. “No bread” is an untrue story used to scare people - a particularly unattractive story indeed. The truth is, we share our bread with right-wingers every day because they are tolerated by too many, even though they do nothing but protect the unfair allocation of privileges. It's very normal to be emotional about this, because it's awful and worth caring about this injustice. Why is it so important to you to vilify left-wing politics when we're discussing how right-wing anthroposophy and Waldorf schools are? - Finn

Steiner contrasted his own approach to racial evolution with the standard models of his day, both Lamarckian and Darwinian. He was explicit in rejecting those models, because they were not compatible with the cosmic vision he propounded, based on esoteric premises. Lamarck and Darwin received similar treatment in this regard, sometimes in the very same context. While Lamarck made pioneering achievements, according to Steiner, he remained within the natural world and did not reach the spiritual realm. One of the more thorough examples of this comes from 1912 in Steiner, Menschengeschichte im Lichte der Geistesforschung, 256-60. The full text in German is available here: https://archive.org/details/rudolf-steiner-ga-061/page/n257/mode/2up I found a poor English translation that more or less gets the gist of Steiner's discussion of Darwin and Lamarck: https://wn.rudolfsteinerelib.org/GA/GA0061/19120118p01.html I recommend this discussion to anybody interested in these topics. There is simply no sense pretending this is an endorsement of Lamarck, any more than an endorsement of Darwin. None of this is surprising, since Steiner's version of racial evolution was radically different from naturalist models. According to Steiner, human beings did not take on fully physical form until the Lemurian era. During the Polarian and Hyperborean eras, humans were spiritual beings who had yet to move down to the physical plane and become organisms (in Steiner's words, "human beings first descended into physical bodies during Lemurian time"). In the Lemurian era humans divided into two sexes and reproduction and heredity began, taking more elaborate form in the Atlantean and Aryan races. Humans did not evolve from apes, but the other way around; apes devolved from humans. Apes are "degenerate descendants of the Atlanteans." "They are descended from us, not we from them." All of this, the whole process unfolding over eons, is overseen by spiritual entities and forces. As Finn aptly put it: "Steiner placed his esoteric cosmology, in which angels and other spiritual beings guide things, above worldly explanations and declared it to be the cause of everything." Steiner's teachings about racial evolution are a perfect illustration of that principle. Peter S.

Hi all, I’m back with a serieus question this time. It’s a bit niche, but maybe someone can help me out. The context is France, and more specifically agriculture. Since 2003, there exist an organization called ‘Terre de Liens’. In short it is an ngo that buys land and farms, so they can be cultivated organically indefinitely, because the farmers don’t have to worry about expensive and unpredictable access to land. The money comes from ordinary citizens. I found an small article by George Perra, French critic of anthroposophy that there is a connection between this organization and anthroposophy. The link is (besides biodynamic farmers among others, being beneficiaries of this organization) that the organization itself is a way of implementing Steiner’s Social Threefolding theory. It goed without saying that this is not made clear by the organization. Here’s Perra’s very short piece on it: https://veritesteiner.wordpress.com/2020/12/12/document-quand-la-societe-anthroposophique-en-france-revelait-en-interne-que-terre-de-liens-sert-le-projet-politique-anthroposophique-de-triarticulation-sociale/ Now for my questions: is this really so? Is Terre de Liens a wolf in sheep’s clothing? Does anyone have connections in France? Do similar organizations exist elsewhere? How to test Perra’s hypothesis? Greetings, Kokanje (in the role of Hercule Poirot, the famous Belgian detective ;-)

Hi All! I'm new here. I spent 14 years at a Waldorf School in the Northeast of the United States, with my family gradually getting more and more enmeshed in the community during my time as a student (My mother started volunteering and working part-time when I was in Kindergarten, then eventually got her Waldorf Teaching certificate and was a class teacher for some time; my father was offered a facilities position when I was about 12 and we moved much closer to the school at this point, becoming much more involved and integrated into the community and remaining that way until after my graduation from high school. My parents are still members of the community, though not nearly as enmeshed as when my brother and I were in school). For years I've described the education and upbringing as "whacky" and "culty," but I'm just recently coming around to the idea that this all may have been more damaging and problematic than I had previously allowed myself to believe. Until recently I have still bought into the idea that some element of who I was as an individual and my identity was formed by my schooling, and that there was perhaps something positive there. This is, in my opinion, an example of the lasting internalized superiority that is all too common at Waldorf schools (a "non-aggressive Us vs Them mentality as Chloe Weise put it her excellent interview on the A Little Bit Culty podcast). I'm realizing now that this internalized sense of being "special" or superior is the primary thing that may cloud many adults' ability to come to terms with the problematic nature of their schooling. Even at this point I have many fond memories of certain activities or classes that I think were quite FUN but were not advancing any actual educational goals from my adult perspective. It's tough to reconcile that fact I think. My best friends in the world are mostly all still people who went through this experience with me (we pretty much all have a critical take of some sort). I think we all took a similar view post HS that we had a weird and whacky education but all "turned out alright," and even to some extent were lucky to have escaped the horrors of Public School. I'm now seeing some incredibly smart people I went to high school (these are not the close freeness mentioned in the prior sentence, just acquaintances at this point) with gravitate back to the community, whether as parents or faculty members, some of them people I never would've expected to return. It's honestly heartbreaking to see for me. Anyways! Before I continue to ramble: I'm looking for reading/watching/listening recommendations from you all that you think would be helpful in continuing to process and think through some of this stuff! I'm open to reading stuff by Steiner & Steiner acolytes, as well as critical takes of various sorts. With the caveat that, the little bit of Steiner I HAVE read (mostly when I was in high school and my mom was completing her teacher training) I found to be insufferable and inscrutable. I'm open to reading Steiner to the extent that I can push back against many of the primary talking points Anthroposophists use in defending him, I'm in no way looking to become some sort of expert on Anthroposophy, since I find it to be pretty incoherent and silly. I would like to develop arguments that are difficult for true believers to refute, though I of course understand that some people are so far down the path that nothing you say will ever convince them or even be treated as a valid critique worthy of contestation. I'm principally interested in strengthening my ability to argue with people who still either consider themselves "anthroposophists" or, (like my mother), say that they are not "anthroposophists" but find many redeeming qualities in the educational system, and seem to think the bad things about it are "in the past." I see little to no redeeming qualities to it myself, though I certainly understand why concepts like free-play, lack of screens, and the general pitch that is given to outsiders is quite compelling to many in our increasingly atomi

--- Roger Rawlings <downfromfog@...> wrote: Thanks so much for this, Roger. There's a lot of food for thought here. Among other things, it made me think about how utterly cruel it is to prepare children for life in a crackpot's fantasy world of gnomes and demons and pseudo science when they then have to live in the real world that they have been taught to fear and/or despise. Best, Margaret ____________________________________________________________________________________ Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/

Ton, I've come to understand that you prefer to mostly avoid direct questions, yet I wish to better understand the inner stance from which you speak. Specifically with regard to the words and phrases: "stereotyped" and "ugly racial stereotypes" and "eurocentrism", which I'll highlight below (in boldface): In our conversations, you gave numerous examples of what you called "stereotypes" or "stereotyped", such as: >>Native Americans are stereotyped (bony system) as close to Africans in GA 100, 101 and 105. >>Europeans are also stereotyped with: strong ego-feeling (GA 107), external, brooder (GA 349) >>Race is a social construct, the number of races is arbitrary, the bounderies are not distinct, the characteristics are stereotyped >>In Steiner's stereotyped account, Jupiter men (GA 13 and 121) were atavistic, retarded, cheese-white (GA 349) and slumbering (GA 13) Caucasians. >>The last two 'race forms' (Semites, Chinese) are stereotyped as: lukewarm, lignified, hardened, overripe, stationary. And then I acknowledged: >>I appreciate that you, at last, admit that RS "frequently used ugly racial stereotypes." But upon reflection, I am sensing that you perhaps use the term "stereotype" with an unconventional connotation, which is quite different than how modern American English uses the term. In present-day English, the word "stereotype" (like the word "prejudice") has an inherently negative connotation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be using the word "stereotype" in the sense of "a generalized but correct characterization." Because Rudolf Steiner's percepts are correct. Is that fair to say? So then when I go back and re-consider what you said: >>Though he frequently used ugly racial stereotypes (e.g. about epigenetically conceived "grey" mulattoes; and "brewed" yellow, brown or white organs), he was not a racial polygenist." I wonder if you mean: "Though Rudolf Steiner frequently voiced generalized but correct characterizations of actually ugly Exousiaic-Racial archetypes and ugly Exousiaic-Racial processes (e.g. about the ugly topic of truly epigenetically conceiving gray mulattos by Caucasian women reading books written by representatives of the Black Race; and correct percepts on the ugly topics of brewed yellow, brown, or white organs, which were actually brewed just as Rudolf Steiner said), he was not a racial polygenist." Is that essentially what you mean? So then I also consider what you voiced here: >>Steiner's eurocentrism was described in GA 13: "Through being turned in a one-sided way towards the physical, those faculties of man whose instrument is in the brain could be so far enhanced as to make possible the science and technical civilization of today. And it was among the European peoples alone that this material civilization could originate" And then: >>As to Steiner's racial stereotyping and eurocentrism, I don't see a possibility for rewriting or reframing. I wonder then if you mean: "As to Steiner's true percept and voicing of generalized but correct characterizations of ugly Exousiaic-Racial archetypes, and as to Steiner's true percept and voicing that the European peoples possess inherently enhanced brain organs, and thus their (our) technological advances were biologically determined, I don't see a possibility for me to support or participate in any re-writing or re-framing...because I view them to be true." I'm not trying to put words into your mouth...I'm attempting to re-state what you shared, so that I'm sure that I understand. I'm trying to truly understand your individual perspective. I wonder if you would be willing to re-state this in a way that even more transparently expresses your individuated viewpoint and volition in this regard. Thank you, --Sionainn

Ton, you say: >>Steiner seems to have been the first esotericist to add planetary names to evolutionary periods (Old Saturn, Old Sun, Saturn men etc.), so there has to be a planetary scheme underlying the Atlantean epochs (e.g. Mercury, Jupiter, Venus etc.). [boldface added] "There has to be"...but there isn't. This is the third time you've asserted that RS equated the Seven Sub-Races of the Atlantean Age to specific seven planets, but all of your GA references on this topic turn out to be false leads. I think if one is going to punctuate their assertions with ("please see such-and-such reference"), the evidence had better actually be there, within that reference. Otherwise, one is wasting the other's time, or semi-consciously misdirecting the other, by punctuating something with an air of authority (hoping that the reader doesn't take the trouble of stopping and going to look at the reference). We can do better than Jack and Rexella Van Impe, the televangelists who would constantly toss off Bible verse numbers in-between whatever assertions they were making. To recap some post-Steinerian gnoses on this topic: Alan Whitehead, an Australian Waldorf homeschool publisher, came up with this gnosis, but didn't assign a planet to the Toltecs or Original Semites. Sun and Moon would be the two "leftovers." When I questioned Alan about these ommissions a few years ago, he didn't respond. Rmoahal = Mercury [Presumably, like Leadbeater, Whitehead associated the Rmoahals with Black people -- Steiner's Ethiopian/Mercury Main Race.] Tlavatli = Saturn [Whitehead likely combined the American Indian associations of "Tlavatli" with Steiner's American Indian/Saturn Main Race.] Toltec? [Whitehead didn't assign any planet.] Turanian = Jupiter [Whitehead characterized these as the original Caucasians. Possibly an original gnosis by Whitehead.] Semite? [Whitehead didn't assign any planet.] Akkadian = Venus [Whitehead possibly vaguely made an association between Ishtar (Venus) of the Akkardian and Steiner's Malay/Venus Main Race. Given the two distinct geographies, this is an unusual connection.] Mongolian = Mars [Whitehead clearly equated Steiner's Mongolian/Mars Main Race with the identically named Scott-Elliot Sub-Race.] Bernard Lievegoed, with whom I'm pretty sure you're well aware, came up with a related gnosis, though focused on the seven Lemurian landmasses which preceded the 7 Atlantean Sub-Races. Which I found in an unpublished manuscript in the ASA national archives: 1st Lemurian Epoch = Saturn/North America 2nd Lemurian Epoch = Jupiter/Europe 3rd Lemurian Epoch = Mars/Siberia 4th Lemurian Epoch = Sun/Inner Asia (Gobi) 5th Lemurian Epoch = Venus/Malaya 6th Lemurian Epoch = Mercury/Africa 7th Lemurian Epoch = Moon/Arabia+Palestine Like I said, I believe Lievegoed may have gotten this scheme from von Gleich. In the same unpublished document, Lievegoed did go on to briefly characterized the Seven Epochs (Sub-Races) of Atlantis, but he did not assign them a planet. IIRC, earlier Wachsmuth and, more recently, Andreas Delor, may have also offered their own individuated gnoses on this topic. Especially noteworthy: Wachsmuth pinpointed the formation of the Five Main Races to the time of the Third Atlantean Epoch (Toltec Epoch). But nevertheless, I still suggest you are repeatedly mistaken in your assertion that Steiner offered a planetary scheme for the 7 Atlantean Sub-Races. And that you may be unadmittedly intentionally or unintentionally offering up your own Majoorosophy. --Sionainn On Wednesday, October 2nd, 2024 at 5:04 AM, ton majoor <tonmajoor@...> wrote: Hello Sionainn, In general, you tend to underestimate Steiner's natural science background. Steiner's monogenism pretended to be a scientific, evolutionary monogenism, not a biblical monogenism (see wiki). On the first pages in Lecture 7 of the Folk Souls, he discussed two migrations. The second migration (nowadays: genetic haplogroup R1b, wiki) refers to the Indo-European post-glacial migration, also described in Lecture 4. The non-European peoples gradually changed (GA 54 and 121, Lecture 7) in a epigenetic Lamarckian fashion (GA 11 and 121) until their violent colonizations (GA 192). Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-glacial_rebound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-modern_human_migration On the relative backwardness of Europeans, Asians and Africans, see Universe, Earth and Man, Lecture IX (1908). Steiner's Eurocentrism, European-technological-Supremacism and stereotyping of 'race-forms' is evident (see Occult Science). Note that Steiner reversed the Theosophical designations of the Post-Atlantean epochs Chaldean and Iranian in the geographically more logical Persian and Chaldean epochs. Steiner seems to have been the first esotericist to add planetary names to evolutionary periods (Old Saturn, Old Sun, Saturn men etc.), so there has to be a planetary scheme underlying the Atlantean epochs (e.g. Mercury, Jupiter, Venus etc.). On some language families, see Fundamentals of Theosophy, The Human Races (1905). Saturnal ossifying would be a Lamarckian adaptation to the changed environment in North-America in Steiner's view. Cobb in his speech spoke of 'bones of our fathers', too. Anthroposophically, Saturn refers to memory, white brain matter, pineal gland and brain sand. Life ages child and teen in the Folk Souls (1910) may point to the greater genetic variability of these race-forms (modifications, phenotypes). The juvenilization by the second migration (Solar race-form, Peach Blosso, Spring) is also discussed there, in Lecture 4. The Pacific route to America is mentioned in GA 192. The Beringia route is implied by the Turanians (GA 123) and Siberia (GA 103).

Ton, you say: >> Steiner was an evolutionary monogenist like Haeckel. [Not a biblical monogenist nor biblical polygenist.] For a "non-biblical" evolutionary monogenist, Steiner's legendarium includes some unusual features: Adam in the Polarian Age. (Adam Kadmon) A second Adam in the Lemurian Age. Noah at the end of Atlantean Age (the nebular flood). A second Noah at the end of the Second Post-Atlantean Age (the soporific flood). A German poet as the reincarnation of Adam. On Wednesday, October 2nd, 2024 at 3:09 PM, ton majoor <tonmajoor@...> wrote: Hello Peter, You're right, no claim, Kant was a racial monogenist, like Blumenbach, not a biblical polygenist like Voltaire. Steiner was an evolutionary monogenist like Haeckel. The Folk Souls has one passage on inheritance in lecture 4; Manu's selected Sun men were Steiner's exception.

Hi Ton, correct me if I'm wrong, yet the "environmental influences" you speak of are "magical environments". For example, we are speaking of magical beams from the Planet Saturn, which were conjured by the Archangelic/Exousiaic ceremonial rites of the Saturnian Mystery Centers which existed in the ethereal cloud-based Atlantean civilization which floated above the thinned ethereal waters of what is now the fallen Atlantic Ocean, and which were then transferred to certain now-invisible places within the continents of North and South America. By which the still magically plastic geology and rock strata of the American continents became suffused with certain environmental emanations which affected the bone structure and glandular structure of the various waves of humanity who migrated to, or physically descended and manifested within, the American landmass. A wondrous story. I would have no problem with the gist of it, as fictive-imaginal storytelling framework...except that it is closely intertwined with a denigratory story about racial determination. Here's a question for you: to your knowledge, has any geologist or biologist ever detected or measured any specific ossifying effect, or bone-expansive effect, or cerebral white-matter-formative effect present within the minerology, or endemic animals, or past or present human populace of the American continents? It may be noted that while there are some tall peoples in the Americas (Selk'nam Patagonians in South America, and Osage, Cheyenne, and Crow peoples in North America), the Dinka and Tutsi peoples of Northeast Africa may have the statistically tallest/longest bones. Would this be an indication of an invisible Saturn Mystery Center implanted in Northeast Africa as well? It seems were are speaking of "(magical) environmental influences" which go well beyond Lamarckism proper. -Sionainn On Friday, October 4th, 2024 at 4:57 PM, ton majoor <tonmajoor@...> wrote: Steiner's early twentieth century context was, besides a Theosophical one, also a Lamarckian and Darwinian context. In Occult Science (1910), Steiner wrote about the inheritance of "Menschen-Rassen-Formen" (human racial forms, instead of: human race-types), but not in the Darwinian language of variation and selection. Instead Lamarck: perfection, plasticity, needs, environmental influence and inheritance of acquired characteristics. Thus the passage in the Folk Souls is about the beginning of heredity as such, but in a Lamarckian fashion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

I am glad to see Travis has joined the conversation, and I'm sorry I haven't participated more; I am traveling for research and haven't had a lot of time to check email. I especially appreciated Travis's emphasis on the theosophical background to Steiner's racial teachings. As Travis has pointed out, many of Ton's claims are at odds with Steiner's texts. I think Travis is right to focus on the line from The Mission of the Folk Souls about indigenous peoples "dying out." Ton relies on an earlier English translation of the sentence: "The American Indians did not die out because it pleased the Europeans that they should do so, but because they had to acquire those forces which led them to die out." In the current and standard English translation, the passage reads as follows: "The forces which determine man's racial character follow this cosmic pattern. The American Indians died out, not because of European persecutions, but because they were destined to succumb to those forces which hastened their extinction." In the German original: "Diesen Gang nehmen die Kr?fte, die auf den Menschen rassebestimmend wirken. Nicht etwa deshalb, weil es den Europ?ern gefallen hat, ist die indianische Bev?lkerung ausgestorben, sondern weil die indianische Bev?lkerung die Kr?fte erwerben mu?te, die sie zum Aussterben führten." The full lecture can be found here: https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA121/English/RSP1970/19100610p02.html 4. The Evolution of Races and Civilization - Vol. 121. The Mission of the Individual Folk Souls (1970) - Rudolf Steiner Archive Rudolf Steiner Archive: An electronic Library and Archive site for the over 6000 collected works of the Austrian philosopher and founder of Anthroposophy, Rudolf Steiner rsarchive.org Steiner's discussion of the "dying out" of American Indians has nothing to do with Lamarckian models of evolution. Lamarck's theory of acquired characteristics centered on the use or disuse of physical traits in individual organisms. Steiner's theory of racial evolution, in contrast, is structured around a narrative of geographically distributed spiritual forces overseen by the Spirits of Form; it centers on racial groups rather than individual organisms and on collective spiritual forces rather than individual physical traits. Steiner explains this framework at length in The Mission of the Folk Souls. This is entirely clear even in Ton's preferred translation: "Finally, what we may describe as the abnormal Spirits of Form who have their centre in Saturn, act upon the glandular system, but in a roundabout way through all the other systems. Therefore in all that we must describe as the Saturn-race, in everything to which we must attribute the Saturn-character, we must look for something which draws together and embraces that which leads again to the evening twilight of humanity, whose development brings humanity in a certain way to a real conclusion, to a dying away. The expression of this action on the glandular system is seen in the American Indian race. From that action comes its mortality, its disappearance. The Saturn influence acts through all the other systems finally upon the glandular system. It separates out the hardest parts of man, and we may therefore say that this dying-out consists in a sort of ossification, and this may also clearly be seen in the outer form. If you look at the pictures of the old American Indians, the process above described is palpable in the decline of this race. In a race such as this, everything which existed in the Saturn-evolution is now present in them, and that in a special manner; it has withdrawn into itself and left man alone with his hard bone system, and brought him into decline. One feels something of this truly occult activity, if one observes how, even in the nineteenth century, a representative of these old Indians speaks of how in him there dwells what formerly was great and mighty for man, but which could not possibly go along with further evolution." The notion that indigenous peoples were destined for extinction was widely held among European thinkers at t

Ton you suggested this personal gnosis: >>Life ages child and teen in the Folk Souls (1910) may point to the greater genetic variability of these race-forms (modifications, phenotypes). Which is more likely?: Europe, Siberia, and northern North America were heavily glaciated during all recent glacial periods. Human beings cannot dwell on glaciers. Therefore, the northern halves of those continents were only repopulated following the thawing of the last continental glaciers. Thus, their linguistic and genetic diversity can only go back to that time. Whereas the sub-tropical and tropical regions remained inhabited throughout deeper timescales. Therefore, there are deeper clades of genetic, phenotypal, and linguistic "substance" in the unglaciated Tropical African, Austronesian, Caucacus, Indigenous Californian, Mesoamerican, and South American areas. However, arid areas in southerly areas (e.g. the Iranian Plateau, Sahara Desert) may not support as much human life, and thus less diversity. Therefore, due to these factors, there are more variety of "family-level" and "phylum-level" linguistic/genetic clades in the lush tropical regions. Objectively, each of these clades has the time depth and genetic/phenotypal and linguistic diversity of, say the Celtic Family of Languages or the Indo-European Phylum of Languages. If one were to create a fictive-imaginal framework which encompassed humanity in a dignified way, each of these entities would be perceived to its own Familial Archangel or Phylic Archai. And any "phenotypal/genetic/biological/physiological" aspect had better be left out the Imaginal Storytelling, unless it is couched really, really light-footed and kindly...because obviously, we are stuck with whatever phenotype we are born with...unless we are going to alter our skin and have cosmetic surgery like Michael Jackson. So if you're going to have "Exousiaic" phenotype storytelling, it had better be real deft, kind, humanistic, and lightly treaded. RS is a Storyteller who substantially failed in this regard, due to the warped influences and mindsets of his time and place. OR A German schoolteacher read a book about human races by the early German scientist Blumenbach, where he groups humanity into a nicely abstract Five Races based on superficial features. This German got a job with the Theosophical Society to pay his bills, with free rent. His job for ten years was to come up with Theosophical lectures on a daily basis, to keep the bills paid. In a series of discourses, he took Blumenbach's five races (which German-educated middle-class readers were familiar with at the time), and assigned them each a magical planet, and also other "magical handles" (favorite gland, favorite color, favorite organ system, favorite place in the human life cycle, favorite grain, favorite Archangel, favorite Exousia, etc.). Then he spun further stories, doubly fortifying the "reality" of these Five Races with a parallel reality where there is an actual Spirit of the Archetypal Black Man, a Spirit of the Archetypal White Man, and so forth. Not surprisingly, the White Man (of his paying audience) was assigned nearly all of the favorable qualities (and even his supposed shortcomings didn't sound that bad: instinctive intelligence, freedom, individuation). And the other four Archetypal Men were obliquely juxtaposed with cruel adjectives. And this German Theosophist told his followers that he was never wrong, and never made a mistake. Ever since, his followers take it upon themselves to defend (or evade) each dot and iota of this German racial gnosis, as if it were the ineffable word of Christ Jesus. For example, here's one "extended gnosis" from the present moment: "The Child Race (Blacks) and Teen Race (Malayans) may point to genetic variability of these Race-Forms/Race-Phenotypes. Maybe RS's intuitive clairvoyance could see this. The Black African Child Race and the Malayan Teen Race may contain more linguistic variability due to those sheathes being magically-hormonally pervaded with juvenile formative forces for 20,000 years. But there's

Ton, you wrote: >>Note that Steiner reversed the Theosophical designations of the Post-Atlantean epochs Chaldean and Iranian in the geographically more logical Persian and Chaldean epochs. I feel this is pretty indicative. Anthroposophists claim (or act as-if) RS's gnosis is infallible, or essentially infallible for all practical purposes. And that any similarities with the Besantian/Leadbeaterian Neo-Theosophical Legendarium are due to a coincidental, temporary clothing of his independent super-sensible experiences with Theosophical terminology. And, in my 20 years of experience among Anthroposophists, even the earliest utterances are held to be essentially as much of an infallible utterance as the last discourses he gave before death. So let's look at Scott-Elliot's (read: C.W. Leadbeater's) post-Atlantean sub-races: 1st Aryan sub-race: Indian-Egyptian 2nd Aryan sub-race: Chaldean, Babylonian, and Assyrian 3rd Aryan sub-race: Iranian 4th Aryan sub-race: Keltic, Greek, and Roman 5th Aryan sub-race: Teutonic "Of the 1st sub-race of our Aryan Race who inhabited India and colonial Egypt in prehistoric times we know practically nothing, and the same may be said of the Chaldean, Babylonian, and Assyrian nations who composed the 2nd sub-race—for the fragments of knowledge obtained from the recently deciphered hieroglyphs or cuneiform inscriptions on Egyptian tombs or Babylonian tablets can scarcely be said to constitute history. The Persians who belonged to the 3rd or Iranian sub-race have it is true, left a few more traces, but of the earlier civilizations of the Keltic or 4th sub-race we have no records at all. It is only with the rise of the last family shoots of this Keltic stock, viz., the Greek and Roman peoples, that we come upon historic times. [...] Our own Teutonic or 5th sub-race has already developed many nations, but has not yet run its course" *** ...And then compare them to RS's earliest "wholly original, independent clairvoyant perception" of post-Atlantean sub-races, from 1904: https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/MigRac_index.html I'll bold-face facets which especially line up: Steiner's "The First Subrace of the Aryan Root Race" [=Leadbeater's Indian-Egyptian]: "Two vistas lay before the Manu of the Fifth Root Race: the civilization that proceeded from the Lemurians and was still present in Southern Asia, and the remains of Atlantean civilization in Africa. Thither he sent out his colonies, accompanied by Priest-Initiates: one to India, the other to Africa. [...] In Egypt, these colonists came into contact with the descendants of the Atlanteans [..] In this first exodus, therefore, we have two branches: The Indo-Aryans and the Hamites (in Africa)." [...] "Let us recapitulate: The original impulses from the Fifth Subrace of the Atlanteans—the Primal Semites—given to the First Subrace of the Aryan Root Race." [...] "the task of the first having been to create religious culture" Steiner's Second Subrace of the Aryan Root Race [=Leadbeater's Chaldean, Babylonian, and Assyrian]: "The dispatch of a new branch constituted the second migration. We can follow this when, to begin with, we look toward the East and study the Medes and Persians, and then the racial stock which made its way through Chaldea and into history in the journeyings of Abraham. On the other side, the racial stock that went Westward also came into contact with the remains of Atlantean civilization—actually the fourth subrace, the Turanian population—which had engaged in agriculture. A strange mixture was the result. By dint of vigorous effort, this racial stock was grafted upon the former Turanian people who in earlier times had practiced magic. From here came the teachings of the Medes and Bactrians." [...] "Another branch of colonists went to the West and came upon the remains of the Atlantean Primal Semites—those who had been chosen out in the first place—and these form what is known as the ancient Semitic stock: Chaldeans, Babylonians, Phoenicians, and Arabians. They constitute a Neo-Semitic civilization." [...] "We now come to the region where the

Ton, you said: >>In general, you tend to underestimate Steiner's natural science background I estimate Steiner's natural scientific background in a similar way that I estimate the natural science background. Mary Baker Eddy's natural science background, founder of Christian Science; and Alfred Geiger Moses's natural science background, founder of Jewish Science; and Daniel David Palmer's natural science background, founder of Chiropractic Science; and Andrew Taylor Still's Osteopathic Science, and L. Ron Hubbard's natural scientific background, founder of Scientology. For a time, it was popular for New Religious Movements to toss in the word "Science" into their title. Yes, RS did have a post-graduate degree. That is something. Though I'm not in a position to judge whether his schooling was really the rigorous or prestigious equivalent of "Austrian MIT" as latter-day promoters claim. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't. Yes, he was more educated than Besant and Leadbeater. Yes, he chafed under Besantian capriciousness. Yes, he was right when he exclaimed in frustration that Besant had an "unscientific mind"...to put it generously. Yes, he intentionally gave Anthroposophy the synonym "Spiritual Science" as a way of distancing his lifework from the utterly dumb capriciousness of Leadbeater's and Besant's Neo-Theosophy. So yes, Anthroposophy was smarter, more subtle, and more clearly thought through than Neo-Theosophy... ...which, unfortunately, is not saying a lot! Actually, I do feel there are some beautiful facets in the Anthroposophical Legendarium and way of life. But also many dumb falsehoods (material falsehoods and esoteric falsehoods). And sick dynamics. I'm reminded of how one Anthropsophical follower blithely exclaimed at how RS must have been a masterful mathematician for calculating the double cupola architecture...when, in truth, actually RS hired an architect to calculate it. (IIRC, I believe it was a Waldorf Watch member who straightened out that story.) I also have an anecdote from personal experience. Back when I believed in, and practiced, Anthroposophy, I wanted to make a book which helped people picture what a Threefold Republic could actually look like. And, as a visual aid, I researched the history and symbology of literally all of the civic nations on earth. And then applied various artistic transformations to each of those 194 flags, so that instead of everything being packed into the nation-state box, there were three sovereign flags for each society on earth: an economic flag, a rights flag, and a cultural flag (194 x 3 = 582 flag designs...a significant investment of labor). And in my work I prefaced the disclaimer that this was only a toolkit to help spur the imagination and volition of viewers. But I experienced multiple times, approximately the following reaction from Anthroposophists, when looking at my design work: ?Anthroposophists: ***Yawn?***: "That's nothing. Rudolf Steiner could just design threefold flags at the drop of a hat. Without even having to do any research into existing flags." Me: "You mean, he could come up with a specific, nationally relevant Threefold flags out of thin air? How so?" Anthroposophists: "Well, for example: he could just tell things by the sound of the nation's name." Me: "So you're saying that, even if RS had never seen the flag of say, Ecuador, he could design an appropriate Threefold Ecuador flag series out of thin air?" Anthroposophists: "Yes, he could draw subtle facts and artistic elements out of the sound of the word 'Ecuador'. And then, in his daily meditation, he could leave his body and discover whatever designs were necessary, by an intuitive meeting with the Archangel of Ecuador. He didn't have to do research into material books. He just used books to help clothe his original super-sensible experiences in language and terminology that human beings could understand." ?***Yawn**** Me: (...) It may be noted that Rudolf and Marie Steiner's personal library contained two Christian Science texts (pub. 1898, 1900) by M.B. Eddy. And John Paull from the Universit

Ton (btw, sorry if I misgendered you as Sir or Madam -- I'm not familiar with Dutch names) Though I am not an enrolled member of any Indian Nation, I have Powhatan ancestry (by oral tradition) and Cherokee ancestry (by genealogy). I have undertaken masters work in Native American Studies at Montana State University. And I was the primary contributor of Traditional Territories maps for the U.S. Indian Nations at the Native Land google map, which has gone viral; and which serve as one of the main sources of Land Acknowledgement in North America. You and Steiner say: "The American Indians did not die out because it pleased the Europeans that they should do so, but because [in a biological Lamarckian sense] they had to acquire those forces which lead them to die out."(GA 121, 4th Lecture). This a horrific and "stupent" statement. American Indian Humanity has not, and will not "die out." Steiner is presenting a false binary which stuns the faculty of reasoning. There are certainly other options than: American Indians died from small pox because "it pleased the Europeans that they should do so." American Indians "had to acquire those forces which lead them to die out." #B fits very well with the Swiss Anthro mindset of "it's all your own fault." "Your family was horrifically slain or scarred by small pox? It's all your own fault. Your physiological sheath was inherently defective, since it wasn't Peach Blossom White. Obviously, as an individual entelechy, you were an Evil Spirit in your previous life, and so you were drawn to enter the Red Man's biologically inferior sheath. Oops! Better luck net time...hopefully you'll be born White next time!" #B's insinuative reference to "those forces" presumably means "Saturn forces." A "death force" which Rudolf Steiner invented! What the heck does that have to do with Lamarck or real biological science? I see here also the Anthro trope of "relaying a bit of shocking sang-froid, just to show the balanced import of the Wise Initiate." Like: "It was Cosmic Wisdom that each American Indian died of smallpox. It is a tragic fact which must be relayed by the one who can see the threads of destiny." (Judith von Halle learned this kind of "shocking sang-froid" when she relayed how Jesus slit and bled out the lamb for the feast.) Anthroposophy-as-it-exists, is a senile, superficial, and horrific religion. *** Look, Steiner was, in some sense of the word, a small person, who chafed under his authoritarian (possibly alcoholic) father, who then experienced desperate poverty as a petty school teacher in Berlin. He then became a Besantian Neo-Theosophist in order to pay the bills, serving in that capacity for 10 years (IIRC). After writing a fawning foreword to a book praising Besant as the reincarnated Giordano Bruno (an assertion she herself cultivated beforehand), Rudolf Steiner eventually came to chafe under the capricious spiritual abuse of Besant. Besant's jingoist speeches of British patriotism during the Great War was another chafe. Then his girlfriend asked him to make a Euro-Christian-flavored version of Theosophy, and the rest in history. His clairvoyant "equation" of Saturn with the American Indian phenotype is trashy pulp fiction. He just had ta keep coming up with quick content to please his paying audience (German countesses and counts, and upper middle-class Besantian Theosophists) Like: "So, I have a lecture tomorrow, I better come up with some good stuff. Let's see...I'll give a convoluted lecture about Blumenbach's five races, and line them up with the planets...to give it a Theosophical twist. That'lll tickle their toes. Let's see...okay, Zeus looks real nice in the Greek sculptures, and Greece is the cultural origin of Europe, so I'll give Jupiter to the Caucasians. Let's see...Attila the Hun wielded the Sword of Mars, and there was Genghis Khan and all that...so I'll make the Mongolians / East Asians as the Mars Race. Okay, for Africa...Thoth, the founder of Egyptian culture, was interpreted by the ancients to be equivalent of Hermes/Mercury...so Ethiopians / Black Race as the Me

"Is Rudolf Steiner a Racist?" (v.15, 2019/2023) I know there's a lot going on in recent threads, so no one ought to feel obligated to read through, but here is a link to my research on the Caucasianism which is baked into Anthroposophic thought. Background: In 2019, I was one of multiple persons asked by a member of the Social Sciences Section to respond to a yes or no question: "Is Rudolf Steiner a racist?" That led me to research the question thoroughly. I gathered 28 negative/ugly statements, and also 28 positive statements. And I also participated in a confidential (locally-based) research group about that topic. Then, I submitted my research results to the newsletter, which was published as an appendix to the Winter / February 2019 newsletter for the Social Sciences Section in North America. In the years following, as the research was shared in other contexts, among other Anthroposophists, I gathered all the different responses which I heard. I became a kind of "collector" and "connoisseur" of justifications, reactions, rationalizations, and excuses for racist content in Anthroposophy. Several of the justifications I heard multiple times, from different people. But any time I heard a new justification, it was like discovering a new species! That's why I say that Ton's recent "Neanderthal" tactic was a new find. Thank you sir! --Sionainn

With regard to Akkadians, you say: >>The semitic-speaking peoples are called "Akkadians" in GA 11: "The Akkadians were therefore an enterprising people with an inclination to colonization. It was commerce, especially, which nourished the waxing faculty of thought and judgment." Scott-Elliot: "A great trading, sea-going and colonizing people..". No, even within the context of the Theosophical-Anthroposophical Legendarium, you are confusing the imaginal Akkadian Subrace (the 6th Subrace of Atlantis) with the actual Semitic Akkadians of known history. In Theosophical tradition, the term "Accadian/Akkadian" (in an Atlantean context) refers actually to the antediluvian ancestors of the Sumerians, who are not Semites, but who speak a language isolate. This confusion goes back to Helena Blavatsky, who got the Akkadians and Sumerians confused, and this was carried over into Scott-Elliot's work. HPB actually tried to defend or explain her mix-up in a later magazine article. Then later Theosophists and Anthroposophists (such as Leadbeater, Koenig, and Gamsakhurdia) tried to fill out the (incongruously named) "Akkadian" (=Sumerian) Subrace by assigning it various pre-Indo-European, non-Semitic Mediterranean descendant cultures: Basques, Iberians, Iberian Picts, Paleo-Sardinians, Etruscans, Pelasgians (including Pre-Greek "Arcadians"), Minoans, Paleo-Trojans, Hattians, Urartians, Kartvelians (Georgians) and all the Caucasus peoples, Kushites, and even further afield: Ainu and Athabaskans! If you wanted to rationalize and smooth things out, just say that the historical Akkadians were a Semitic tribe who adopted the Sumerian ("esoteric Accadian") culture. I think (IIRC) that was the tact that HPB used. --Sionainn On Sunday, September 29th, 2024 at 9:53 AM, ton majoor <tonmajoor@...> wrote: Hello Sionainn, - "... the British Islands for example, now being part of a huge island which also embraces the Scandinavian peninsula, the north of France, and all the intervening and some of the surrounding seas" (Scott-Elliot) sounds like Doggerland. - Scott-Elliot (1896) wrote that the Atlantean "Tlavatli" (indeed, Cro Magnons) spread northwards towards Greenland. In a weekly planetary scheme that would be the modification of Jupiter. - The semitic-speaking peoples are called "Akkadians" in GA 11: "The Akkadians were therefore an enterprising people with an inclination to colonization. It was commerce, especially, which nourished the waxing faculty of thought and judgment." Scott-Elliot: "A great trading, sea-going and colonizing people..". "The first three sub-races recapitulate, briefly, the stages of Eagle, Lion, and Bull." (GA 90a and 95). Lievegoed used another apocalyptic order (GA 101 and 104a). Atlantean Europeans slumbered (GA 13), Post-Atlantean Indo-Europeans ripened only after their admixture with the "Manuvians". The Europeans had an "advantage" over the other, "gradually developing", non-European peoples (GA 121). Europeans are also stereotyped with: strong ego-feeling (GA 107), external, brooder (GA 349) ...