Keyboard Shortcuts
Likes
- Waldorf-Critics
- Messages
Search
Re: RFK and Ecofascism
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý
Hi all,
sorry I haven't had a?chance to participate much lately. Adam asked a very good question (nice to hear from you again, Adam), and Kokanje is absolutely right to relate it to?the Lebensreform or 'life reform' movement of the early twentieth century. That movement
went well beyond "Germany in the 1930s," as Victor mistakenly imagined; for one thing, it began long before the 1930s, and it was particularly pronounced in Switzerland, among other places. Life reform had important influences in the United States, early predecessors
of the current "Make America Healthy Again" revival. Steiner and his followers were very much part of the life reform milieu.?
As Kokanje notes, the other significant point of reference is conspirituality, the convergence of alternative spirituality and conspiracy thinking, an increasingly powerful social phenomenon these days. Anthroposophy has been at the center of scholarly attention
to conspirituality for years; we have discussed that topic on this list in some detail in the past. RFK Jr. and his supporters are in many ways perfect examples of both of these trends, the life reform tendency and the conspirituality tendency, in their twenty-first
century North American forms. The anti-vaccination stance alone provides considerable common ground with a wide spectrum of contemporary anthroposophy.
It makes sense to view those trends as part of a combination of alternative health lifestyles and broader environmental concerns with far right politics, as Adam suggested; that is what much of my historical work centers on. But we could also see them as instances
of left-right crossover, or simple political confusion, certainly not the first example of this kind. Either way, the critical perspectives on anthroposophy that many listmates have developed here over the years are very relevant to trying to make sense of
current dynamics like MAHA.
Peter S.
|
Re: RFK and Ecofascism
Hi Victor,
No need for that (yet). ?
Populism isn¡¯t fascism. But it doesn¡¯t mean we can¡¯t point out some parallels.
?
On the other hand, this forum is called Waldorf Critics and now we¡¯re talking about something that is larger than the anthroposophical community. Some call it conspirituality: the combination of the belief in spiritual theories and practices, and the belief that the world is controlled by dark forces. Anthroposophy sure resonates with this, as we saw during the pandemic. (I probably don¡¯t have to explain this to you).
?
I¡¯m interested to find out if anthroposophy also plays a role here, but to be honest, there¡¯s little or no evidence. Here¡¯s an article about some people behind MAHA:
?
In the article one of them says: ¡°The MAHA movement is part of a ¡°spiritual awakening¡± in the U.S. that is key to helping people achieve the American dream.¡±
But I realize that¡¯s just one voice in this eclectic bunch.
I¡¯m also interested in anthroposophists reactions to the future policies of RFK, if he gets appointed. Will they protest against them or welcome them? ?
Always nice to hear your opinion.
greetings,? ?
Kokanje |
Re: RFK and Ecofascism
victor Dijk
I can't wait to see how people on this forum will bring up Germany in the 1930s again. Op do 6 feb 2025 om 07:43 schreef Kokanje via <landvankokanje=[email protected]>:
|
Re: RFK and Ecofascism
Hi Adam and all,
?
I¡¯ve been reading a bit about the background of MAHA (make America Healthy again), just news articles.
?
Sure sounds a lot like German Lebensreform from back in the day with its emphasis on bodily purity and rejection of industrialization¡¯s negative effects.
?
Greetings,
?
Kokanje |
Re: RFK and Ecofascism
Hi Adam, ? I¡¯m a relatively new member, from Europe. Anthroposophical background through work experiences and sent my kids to Waldorf School (pulled them all out several years ago). ? We briefly discussed RFK in this topic in november of last year: ? /g/waldorf-critics/topic/in_the_shadow_of_robert_f/109631806 ? His former running mate, Nicole Shanahan, draws some inspiration from anthroposophy, but I doubt RFK does. He¡¯s popular in some conservative anthroposophical scenes in Europe. ? I think it¡¯s fair to say he used people¡¯s fears during COVID and the aftermath to gain popularity. Hence the popularity among anthroposophists. ? Personally I understood his bid for the presidency much better after reading Peter Turchin¡¯s book ¡°End Times¡±. In this framework he can be considered part of a surplus elite, who¡¯s looked for a path to power by using anti-elite vocabulary (Big Pharma, etc¡). Populism basically, but aimed at a specific group: people who¡¯re into alternative health theories. ? Just some ideas. ? greetings, ? Kokanje |
RFK and Ecofascism
Hi folks,
?
New post from old time member, Adam Jacobs. Took Waldorf Training courses, critic of racism and anthroposophy, public school teacher in Vermont now! :)
?
This is a question for Peter Staudenmaier, or anyone really, when I started to read more and more about RFK my jaw dropped to the ground. This felt like the greatest example of eco-fascism in our country: the synthetic combination of alternative health lifestyle with far right politics.
?
Peter, do you agree? Do you have anything to add?
Forgive me if you all spoke about this already--just ignore it then! ?
Thanks,
Adam |
Re: A peculiar alchemy: Theosophy and the Study of Religion
Hi G ER,
?
there must be something in the air ;-)
?
It¡¯s a good thing that qualified people are starting to look at what¡¯s beneath the surface. Ideologies are always complex. This ¡°technofascism¡± (as mentioned in the Guardian article) is coming from somewhere.
I don¡¯t want to demonize these people, but since they have power, it¡¯s interesting to know what goes on in their heads. In the end they¡¯re people like you and me, susceptible to all kinds of ideas. But with the exception is that what they think is converted in some way into policies. These effect a large number of people all over the world.
?
Thanks for sharing the article!
?
Kokanje
?
? |
Re: A peculiar alchemy: Theosophy and the Study of Religion
Hi all,
?
Not only Harvard, with it¡¯s Centre for the Study of World Religions (CSWR) but also Silicon Valley were supposedly influenced by Theosophy.
Apparently Malcolm Harris talks about it in his book ¡®Palo Alto¡¯ ?
I haven¡¯t read the book (yet), but this is what ChatGPT has to say about it:
?
Yes, Malcolm Harris does touch on the influence of New Age spirituality and its precursor, Theosophy, as part of his broader examination of the cultural and intellectual movements that shaped Palo Alto and its surrounding regions. He explores how these esoteric and spiritualist movements influenced the development of California¡¯s countercultural and later tech-centered ideologies. ? Specifically, he discusses how Theosophy ¡±a mystical philosophy blending Eastern and Western spiritual ideas¡± gained traction in California during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. This movement laid the groundwork for New Age philosophies that later became prominent in the mid-20th century. Palo Alto¡¯s proximity to places like San Francisco and Big Sur, hubs for experimental spirituality, helped foster a blending of technological optimism with New Age ideas about personal growth, transcendence, and interconnectedness. ? Harris ties these movements to Silicon Valley¡¯s ethos, where many early tech pioneers embraced a mix of libertarianism, systems theory, and countercultural spirituality. He critiques how these ideas were appropriated into the capitalist framework, turning philosophies of self-actualization into tools for corporate innovation and labor exploitation. ? If this angle interests you, it¡¯s definitely worth diving into Palo Alto. Harris weaves these cultural movements into his broader critique of the region¡¯s history in fascinating ways. I never realized this influence up till now.
If I¡¯m to believe ChatGPT, Harris also talks about Waldorf Schools: ?
Yes, Malcolm Harris does mention Waldorf schools in Palo Alto, though not extensively. He discusses them in the broader context of alternative education movements that emerged in California, particularly in relation to Silicon Valley¡¯s elite and their approach to schooling. Waldorf education, rooted in the anthroposophical philosophy of Rudolf Steiner (which has connections to Theosophy), has long been popular among tech workers and entrepreneurs who are skeptical of mainstream public education. ? Harris critiques how these alternative education models ¡°often embraced by Silicon Valley elites¡± can reinforce social hierarchies rather than challenge them. For example, Waldorf schools emphasize creativity, holistic development, and minimal screen time, yet many of the same tech industry leaders who send their children to these schools profit from selling screens and digital tools to the masses. This contradiction fits into Harris¡¯s broader critique of the region¡¯s hypocrisy: while the tech elite often promote ¡°disruptive¡± technologies for others, they choose more traditional or even anti-technological educational methods for their own children. ? If you¡¯re particularly interested in Waldorf schools and their ideological roots, Harris doesn¡¯t go very deep, but his work does provide useful context for understanding their role within Silicon Valley¡¯s culture. ?
greetings,
?
Kokanje
?
? |
A peculiar alchemy: Theosophy and the Study of Religion
Hi all,
?
inspired by Finn¡¯s and my own questions, I kept roaming the internet and encountered a very interesting podcast ¡®The secret history of Western esotericism¡¯.
?
Unfortunately there is no episode on Steiner (yet), but there is an episode on the impact of Theosophy on Western culture and more specifically the study of religious studies.
?
It is very strange and specific, but I do recommend it.
?
Check out the episode here:
And the book, for those who want to read about it.
?
It¡¯s amazing how the influence of Theosophy got ¡®forgotten¡¯ in the later half of the 20th century.
Greetings, Kokanje |
Re: ¡°Reversal into the opposite¡± described by Sylvia Sasse
Don¡¯t worry about it, Finn.
?
¡¯Good¡¯ is an excellent autocorrection for ¡®God¡¯, except when you¡¯re a Sethian Gnostic. Then, ¡®bad¡¯ would be more appropriate ;-)
P.S.: I heard the joke before. It paints a good picture of Steiner. ?
Did you ever hear that Hilma af Klint, didn¡¯t paint for several years after her work was critisized by Steiner? He was such a terrible figure :-(
?
greetings,
?
Kokanje
? |
Re: racism and discrimination
Hi everyone!
?
I would like to emphasize this old topic. Important basics about racism and anthroposophy were clarified here more than a decade ago. Nevertheless, anthroposophists still act today as if criticizing them is an injustice.
?
?
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 07:35 PM, Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
A way of thinking about race that links biological features to non-biological features, sorts human groups into racial categories, accords essential meaning to these categories, delineates specific differences between them, associates these differences with significant cultural, spiritual, or intellectual traits, and ranks the resulting constellation of categories in some hierarchical order of higher and lower. ?
?
-----------
I'm thinking a lot about forgetting at the moment. I have been critically engaged with anthroposophy since 2017. However, the intense disputes with the anthroposophical community have a history that is now longer than 3 decades. I find new things at both ends of this history. At the front is what is constantly new, at the back is what becomes forgotten. Even in my own short history since 2017, I contantly forget.
?
?
Greetings
Finn |
Re: ¡°Reversal into the opposite¡± described by Sylvia Sasse
Thanks Kokanje!
?
And please excuse my many typing-mistakes in my Last message. I write a lot of my Messages during Breaks at Work or when I'm on the bus on may way to work. I have New Hardware but I have No clue how I can disable autocorrectur. |
Listening enquiry
Hi all,
?
In France there¡¯s a new case of sexual abuse by a famous cleric, Abb¨¦ Pierre.
?
I¡¯m not interested in the case as such (though I feel bad for all the victims), but in the methodology of the investgators. They do a sort of ¡®listening enquiry¡¯ whereby the victims can tell their story in all serenity.
?
And so I started thinking: could this be a way to document all kinds of abuse (emotional, physical, secual,¡) in Waldorf Schools??
When caried out nation wide (or even worldwide), it could make clear the systemic nature of such abuse. Now it¡¯s all spread out on the internet on private sites, blogs, forums, social networks¡
?
I¡¯m not thinking about the funding for such a project at this point. It will cost heaps of time and thus money.
?
Peter, Dan,¡ have you ever encountered such initiatives?
greetings, Kokanje
? |
Re: ¡°Reversal into the opposite¡± described by Sylvia Sasse
Finn, This might interest you: What is Christian mysticism? What is Gnosticism? From Filip Holm¡¯s podcast: Let¡¯s talk religion. Also available on youtube.? There will be similarities and differences with anthroposophy. Steiner was a typical syncretic figure in history and not the only one. Now and then you get these figures who are good in bringing abstract ideas together, even if they contradict each other. But it¡¯s also interesting to see how little we know (I¡¯ll speak for myself) about the history of Christianity. Greetings, Kokanje Op wo 15 jan 2025 om 06:48 schreef Finnef via <vollnormaleforschung=[email protected]>
|
Re: ¡°Reversal into the opposite¡± described by Sylvia Sasse
Good morning Kokanje,
?
Happy to read your reply. I'm also not a scientist, so I live a life with ringing bells.
?
1. bell:
Your description of Christian mysticism reminds me of some people describe gnosticism. I'm Not an expert of History of christianity, mysticism und gnosticism. When it comes to this I Always think about how famous comic-writer Alan Moore described a difference between Gnosis and faith or believe in a britisch magazin for gnosticism - he Said Something like: 'gnosis means to know, believe ist for "cissies"'. A note of this ist in this article:
?
2. bell:
There ist a Joke about Steiner and Religion in Helmut Zanders Steiner-biography. IT goes Like this: several known holy man meet good at the end of their life, when they come Back from good they understood that they thought in mistakes about god. But then there is Steiner. After He met god at the end of His life, it's god god who understand his mistakes.
?
3. bell:
I assume Zander's Joke ist about Something that is known to me as "negative theology", something I don't fully understand. But it's some kind of religious scepticism about the own believes. A concept that seems unknown to anthroposophists, because they have a promise of answering every Last question, If you do "spiritual science" right. (Anthroposphy means to know, If you will, believe ist for everyone else.)
?
Greetings!
Finn? |
Re: ¡°Reversal into the opposite¡± described by Sylvia Sasse
Hi Finn, and all,
?
I¡¯ve been thinking about this. The equation between spirituality/religion (based on subjective observation) and science (based on objective observation) is indeed typical for anthroposophy, hence the oxymoron ¡®spiritual science¡¯, what anthroposophy is all about.
?
Could this be a result of the influence of christian mysticism on anthroposophy? This strand of Christianity - which goes way back to the earliest days of Christianity and has a long history in the catholic and othodox churches - empasizes the direct experience of god/thruth. True knowledge is acquired through worship, love, meditation, litteral not-thinking in this view. Steiner tried to give these experiences an aura of science, making a bridge between two opposites. This could have been an honest attempt, or a way to make him seem ¡®professoral¡¯.
So, anthroposophy is christian mysticism re-invented for the modern age? Made up by a guy who was accidentaly born in the Austro-Hungarian empire, a melting pot of religions. (The article you shared from the German antifa site on the situation in Hungary, shows that this melting pot is still producing/recycling some of these ideas.)
I¡¯m probably cutting corners again. So, Peter, if you read this and feel the need to correct me, please do! Unlike Steiner, I don¡¯t claim to be a scientist ;-) ?
greetings, Kokanje
?
? |
Re: Westside Waldorf School
Hi Tom,
?
The fires are also constantly in the news over here. It¡¯s?really terrible and I wouldn¡¯t wish this upon my worst enemy.?
?
It goes to show that every nation and every class can be hit by the effects of climate change by now. In Europe we had a massive flooding in Spain, recently, with more than 200 deaths and costs running into billions.
?
Local goverments are usually blamed afterwards, but this is a global problem and deserves attention at this level. Unfortunately conspiracy theories running rampant during and after such events are also a recurring effect, which doesn¡¯t help.
I hope things get better over there soon. ?
greetings, Kokanje |
Re: ¡°Reversal into the opposite¡± described by Sylvia Sasse
I have the idea that it might be helpful to investigate the failing of movie twists, there are plenty of them if you believe the internet.
-
-
-
-
-
?
But (movie-)twists are of course not everything. Sylvia Sasse describes the phenomenon in another way: An equation of the opposite. Her best-known example of this is a quote from George Orwell's novel ¡°1984¡±. In the novel, the totalitarian regime claims ¡°War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength¡±. Sylvia Sasse draws attention to the fact that in the first two pairs the exact opposite becomes the same, while ignorance and strength remarkebly are not the exact opposite, but this is almost overlooked after the first two pairs.
?
We are also familiar with the disappearance of opposites from anthroposophy, for example the difference between religion and science.
?
- Finn
|