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Reading research, asking questions

 

Hello everyone,
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I have written a short page with a very very very brief introduction to research on esotericism, especially anthroposophy. I have combined this with an invitation to ask questions.
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In this introduction you will find many links to research literature. However, the list is not written in stone and is super far from complete.
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My main aim is to encourage people to read, ask questions and add input.
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The site is in German. Digital translation is difficult. If anyone would like to add a translation, I would be happy.
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Greetings
Finn


Re: New paper by Martin Rawson

 

Thank you Eeva!


Re: New paper by Martin Rawson

 

Finn wrote:
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Thank you Kokanje!
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Honestly, I'm more interested in what anthroposophy is for you rather than ChatGPT. I think it's fair if people who have no reverence for anthroposophy, don't believe in it, aren't convinced by it or are even hurt by it, speak out about it. I think that what these people say about anthroposophy cannot be ignored if you ask, like Rawson, Held or like I do, what it is.
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Greetings?
Finn
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If you ask me, I answer:?
Based on theosophical movement with Steiner's modifications of it. World-view which is based on claims that are not possible to get via our "normal" senses. Fixed world-view, if understood as the fundamental claims of Steiner, and thus is religious. Some of its practical applications are interesting, as they seem have some practical value (if used right).
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E?


Re: New paper by Martin Rawson

 

Thank you Kokanje!
?
Honestly, I'm more interested in what anthroposophy is for you rather than ChatGPT. I think it's fair if people who have no reverence for anthroposophy, don't believe in it, aren't convinced by it or are even hurt by it, speak out about it. I think that what these people say about anthroposophy cannot be ignored if you ask, like Rawson, Held or like I do, what it is.
?
Greetings?
Finn


Re: New paper by Martin Rawson

 

Just after I pushed the send button, I saw this example of an oxymoron:
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¡®cruel kindness¡¯

That could also be a definition of anthroposophy for me.
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greetings,
?
Kokanje


Re: New paper by Martin Rawson

 

Finn,
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I know your question is sincere and hopefully someone can ever give you a definitive answer that is not debatable (although I doubt it).
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I would say: anthroposophy is what you get when you base your worldview on the oxymoron that is called ¡®spiritual science¡¯: a kind of schizophrenia.
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I asked ChatGPT (there I go again :-) to summarize it¡¯s response to your question until it counted 2 words: ¡®spiritual science¡¯. Then I asked it to summarize it in 1 word. The answer was ¡®spirituality¡¯. When forced to choose the ¡®science¡¯ part is left out. That says it al for me¡­
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greetings,
?
Kokanje


Re: New paper by Martin Rawson

 

Hello all,
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The question "what is anthroposophy?" as Rawson discusses it in his text has been on my mind for a while. On the one hand, there are Waldorf anthroposophists who are sure that anthroposophy is something that is certainly not taught in Waldorf schools. On the other hand, there is Wolfgang Held, for example, in this video lecture, in which he says to his anthroposophical listeners: Let's get used to people who are not in anthroposophy telling us what anthroposophy is (Gew?hnen wir uns daran, dass diejenigen, die nicht in der Anthroposophie stehen, uns sagen, was sie ist).
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? ? ? So:
? ? ? ? ?What is anthroposophy?
?


Re: New paper by Martin Rawson

 

Hi Eeva,

Thank you for sharing this. I already passed it on.
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I was triggered by the first part on how to correctly study and interpret Steiner¡¯s words and works.
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So I put the passage in ChatGPT and asked how AI could solve the problems mentioned. It gave an interesting answer and mentioned techniques I hadn¡¯t heard of before. So I¡¯d like to share it here. It seems researchers have a new tool to dissect Steiner¡¯s works.
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Here¡¯s the part by ChatGPT:
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The passage highlights several core challenges in studying Rudolf Steiner¡¯s works:

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1. Volume and Range: Steiner¡¯s works span around 400 volumes, covering a vast array of topics. This sheer volume makes it difficult to form a cohesive, reliable understanding across all his ideas.

2. Inconsistencies: Steiner¡¯s ideas may not always be consistent, as he didn¡¯t have time to edit or revisit his thoughts, and his interpretations may have been affected by those who compiled and published his work, particularly Marie Steiner.

3. Complexity of Digital Search: Even with digital tools, it¡¯s hard to thoroughly analyze his works in a way that reveals a balanced view or deeper patterns.

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Given these issues, AI could be an invaluable tool for enhancing Steiner research and tackling these challenges in the following ways:

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1. Advanced Text Analysis and Summarization

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? Automated Summarization: AI can condense volumes into cohesive summaries, helping scholars get an overview of Steiner¡¯s key themes and ideas without reading every line.

? Topic Modeling and Clustering: By using topic modeling, AI could group Steiner¡¯s writings into thematic clusters, making it easier to identify trends, connections, and inconsistencies in his ideas.

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2. Detecting Patterns and Consistencies

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? Consistency Analysis: AI could analyze Steiner¡¯s writing for recurring concepts or changes over time. By comparing themes or phrases across his works, researchers could better understand how his ideas evolved and pinpoint areas where inconsistencies arise.

? Cross-referencing: AI can build links between Steiner¡¯s various writings, showing where and how certain ideas appear, reappear, or shift in emphasis across his works.

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3. Contextual Analysis of Influences and Interpretations

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? Influence Detection: By comparing Steiner¡¯s writings with those of his contemporaries, AI could identify external influences or unique patterns that make his contributions distinctive.

? Differentiating Voices: Since Marie Steiner and other interpreters influenced his published work, AI can help distinguish Steiner¡¯s own voice from editorial interventions, using authorial voice analysis. This would allow for a clearer view of his authentic ideas versus those shaped by others.

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4. Enhanced Search Capabilities

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? Semantic Search: Beyond keyword searches, AI-powered semantic search could allow researchers to search by ideas and concepts, which would be especially useful for Steiner¡¯s often abstract or complex terms. This could surface related passages across the 400 volumes without requiring exact matches.

? Visualizing Connections: AI could create visual maps linking related ideas across Steiner¡¯s works, making it easier to explore his ideas interactively.

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5. Creating a Dynamic Knowledge Graph

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? Mapping Ideas: A knowledge graph could connect Steiner¡¯s concepts, terms, and references to historical events or scientific knowledge, creating an interactive map of his intellectual landscape. This graph could highlight connections across his teachings in different fields, aiding scholars in understanding his interdisciplinary reach.

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6. Automated Critique and Argument Analysis

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? Argument Mapping: AI could identify and chart the flow of arguments within and across Steiner¡¯s works, flagging areas where his logic might seem contradictory or weak. This could give scholars an objective foundation to assess his philosophical rigor.

? Comparative Analysis with Critics: AI could also compare Steiner¡¯s writings to critiques like Zander¡¯s, helping scholars understand both supportive and critical perspectives in context.

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With these AI tools, scholars could gain more clarity on Steiner¡¯s complex legacy, recognizing both his contributions and limitations, and fostering a more nuanced understanding of his work.

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And here is me again:

I would love to read the results of such studies one day.


greetings,

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Kokanje


Re: New paper by Martin Rawson

 

Spoiler (how Rawson's Text ends):
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"The delineation presented here, if taken up, would prevent no individual from deepening their
understanding of Anthroposophy to whatever level they are capable of. My central point is to
establish that scholars and students of Waldorf education take a scientific/academic approach to
Steiner and Anthroposophy and thereby to counter the accusations that the theory underpinning
Waldorf education is not scientific. The approach I have presented here would mean that there would
be no difference between a scholar referencing Steiner and one referencing Goethe, Dilthey, Marx,
Freud or Weber as theorists in their fields, as I have done in this article. My hope is that other
authors more capable than me, try as I did (Rawson, 2021), or as Bo Dahlin did (2017), to create a
new discourse for Waldorf education, that doesn¡¯t need to bracket anything out, or claim the validity
of the whole of Anthroposophy."


Re: New paper by Martin Rawson

 

Hello Eeva,
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Thanks for the hint to the paper by Rawson. I have another link.
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- Finn
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Re: New paper by Martin Rawson

 

On Mon, Nov 4, 2024 at 10:08 PM, Eeva wrote:
(PDF) Waldorf Working Papers No. 8.2. Available from: [accessed Nov 04 2024].
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Definitely worth of read! Many very good critical comments! I had difficulties to copy parts of the best parts of this text, so I suggest you create account to Researchgate and read it there.
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Theaparts of text in the beginning and end are from the Rawson's paper. The reference here in hte start. Sorry for confusions with copying text

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?


New paper by Martin Rawson

 

The habit of using the collected works as an encyclopedia, or as a source of suitable quotations toembellish ¡®sermons¡¯, without contextualizing the words chosen, is not a serious way of working. In400 volumes it is possible to find all kinds of details that don¡¯t necessarily fit into a coherent andreliable bigger picture. Scholars such as Zander can do the same thing to denounce Steiner- it worksboth ways. It is very hard for anyone to thoroughly study Steiner¡¯s complete works, even today withthe possibilities of using digital search engines. This is one of the reasons that there are few, if anyreally definitive studies of Steiner¡¯s unbelievable range of work. If we assume that Steiner was amulti-talented polymath, he was nevertheless unlikely to have been entirely consistent, given that herarely had time to go back over and correct texts that were published, often relying on others, notablyhis second wife Marie Steiner, whose own interpretations and priorities no doubt played a role. AsJohannes Kiersch (2010) has noted, there were often no words in the German language for theexperiences he had and he made use of a wide range of sources for his terminology, includinginventing words, which the German language facilitates. David Wood (2013) cites Steiner as sayingthat he borrowed the method of modifying the ¡®¡¯letter in order to promote the spirit¡¯ from Fichte,¡°For Steiner, all his terms are interrelated and chosen with care, and one must not dogmaticallyremain at the single word. Instead, the students has to actively bring all the meanings of the differentterms together in order to form a more comprehensive concept¡± (Wood, 2013, p.183). Mostly Steinerused existing terminology, though giving the words new meanings.Students writing Master or PhD theses on Waldorf education and who wish to reference Steiner haveto be critical about how they cite his texts. This means contextualizing the passages they cite,showing how this is interpreted within the current Waldorf discourse and how it relates to currentpractice. For example, instead of simply stating Steiner¡¯s claim that reading children¡¯s temperamentsis important pedagogically, either Steiner¡¯s account needs to be discussed in detail, showing exactlywhat he meant, how this perspective is supposed to be used, how this relates to other theories oftemperaments, or indeed to other theories about interpreting children¡¯s behaviour, or referenceshould be given to competent literature that does this. Then the writer needs to show how the ¡®theory¡¯of temperaments is applied and what evidence there is, if any, about the usefulness of this approach.This is the same as would be done with any other theory of child development. If the student isworking in other languages than German, they have to compare available translations
(PDF) Waldorf Working Papers No. 8.2. Available from: [accessed Nov 04 2024].
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Definitely worth of read! Many very good critical comments! I had difficulties to copy parts of the best parts of this text, so I suggest you create account to Researchgate and read it there.
?
A second example was the statement of someone in a senior role in a teacher education institutionwho told me that what Steiner said about races may be inappropriate but was basically true. When Ichallenged this person, I was told, Steiner was a high initiate and therefore could not be wrong.Though perhaps not quite as crass, we find taken-for-granted assumptions about Steiner¡¯s ideas inWaldorf literature. Frank Linde, for example, eloquently presents the classical anthroposophicalattitude in Waldorf education,Without Anthroposophy, Waldorf education would not exist. Its foundation...derives from twosources: on the one hand from Steiner's perception and life experiences and on the other fromthe intuitions of the spiritual world, which he held as an answer to the educational challengesof life. Both sources were united in his person, but in terms of the intuitional content of thelaws of the essence of the human being and his development, they go beyond the individualcase and the temporality of the moment. This answers the question of the contemporaryrelevance of anthroposophical education (Linde, 2021, p.22 MR trans.).


Lea's new column

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Another incisive column by Lea in today's taz:

Gesunde Kinder nicht nach Stiko-Empfehlung zu impfen, ist medizinische Vernachl?ssigung. Und an Waldorfsch¨¹lern leider eine weit verbreitete Praxis.
taz.de

This one is about anthroposophical skepticism toward vaccination.


Peter S.




Re: Anthroposophy and the history of Fascism

 

Hello, hello,
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I found and ordered a copy of Scaligeros Urachhaus-book "Die Logik als Widersacher des Menschen". I'm particularly curious on what I'll read in the introduction Michael Kirn wrote for this book.
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Greetings?
Finn


Re: Steiner and the current political right

 

Hi Walden,
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about the ¡®f¡¯: I realized recently, but the conversation with StAIner (a new name for him?) dates from before.
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I¡¯m sure I could make AI Steiner even more realistic, (syntaxis could be based on his lectures, with the caveat that they are not his exact words), but it would take some effort. In Belgium there¡¯s this Phd researcher in Creative Artificial Intelligence who¡¯s really good. He recreated the then dean of his own university as a twitterbot a few years ago, and a lot of people couldn¡¯t tell the difference. He has a page in English:
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It¡¯s incredible and a bit scary at the same time. Everything is programmable, even humor. I chatted with one of Winter¡¯s GPT bots recently and I had quite some laughs. But his prompt for this bot was a piece of art.

The advantage with Steiner is that there¡¯s so much textual material to play with. Definitely doable, I¡¯d say.
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greetings,
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Kokanje
?
?


Re: Steiner and the current political right

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi Kokanje,

?

I enjoy witnessing your curiosity in action. This is a fascinating example. Btw, ?I doubt AI Steiner really minds, but it¡¯s Rudolf with an F. In any case, your curiosity begs even more: Although I realize these would be translations from German, I wonder if its syntax is similar to that of real Steiner . . . .?

?

Thanks,

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-Walden

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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Kokanje
Sent: October 30, 2024 1:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [waldorf-critics] Steiner and the current political right

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Hi Geoffrey,

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no article, but I asked ChatGPT, roleplaying as Steiner a while back.

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I had to nudge him a bit, but in the end he endorsed Harris.

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Here¡¯s the conversation (for what it¡¯s worth). I¡¯m also interested in what people would make of it, so looking forward to any articles on this.

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Me:

Hey Rudolph, if you were eligible to vote, would you vote for Trump or Harris in the next US presidential elections. Whose position would reflect your ideas the most?

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ChatGPT:

Ah, a most delicate question! If I were to consider such matters through the lens of anthroposophy, I would not focus so much on the individual candidates¡ªbe it Trump, Harris, or any other¡ªbut rather on the underlying spiritual and social impulses they represent. My perspective, as you know, is shaped by the idea of social threefolding, a vision where cultural life, political life, and economic life should each have their own independent development according to their intrinsic needs. In this light, I would seek to discern how each candidate¡¯s platform addresses these spheres.

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Now, neither Trump nor Harris, from what I can perceive of their political orientations, seem to fully embody the principles of social threefolding or the spiritual renewal that I advocated for. Both are very much embedded in a political system that merges economic and state powers too closely, often leaving cultural and spiritual life neglected or manipulated by materialistic forces. This is a challenge not just in the United States, but globally.

?

However, let us consider the qualities at hand. I would look at:

? Cultural freedom: Does the candidate foster education, arts, and spirituality in a way that encourages human development?

? Political equality: Are they genuinely interested in the rights and dignity of individuals?

? Economic fraternity: Do they support policies that encourage cooperation and ethical business practices rather than purely self-serving economic interests?

?

In truth, my position would be one of caution and critical observation, for neither candidate reflects the deeper spiritual, social, and economic renewal that I believe is necessary. Rather than endorsing a particular individual, I would encourage voters to look beyond partisanship and ask: which path will best serve the human soul¡¯s evolution toward freedom, moral responsibility, and cooperation?

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But alas, the political world as it exists is far from the ideal I envisioned, and such decisions must be made with discernment, always keeping in mind the greater spiritual good.

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Me:

I respect you nuanced position. But let¡¯s say your options are limited to voting for one of these 2 candidates. Which one would you pick? Only the name please.

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ChatGPT:

Given such a limitation, I would choose Harris.

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Me:

And what made you choose her? What tipped the balance?

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ChatGPT:

The balance tips in favor of Harris due to her generally greater alignment with values of inclusivity, social justice, and concern for the broader community. While neither candidate fully embodies the deeper spiritual and social ideals I envision, her positions suggest a more collaborative approach to governance and an emphasis on equality, which resonates more with the principles of political equality and?social cooperation that I advocate in anthroposophy.

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Harris seems to reflect a more open and integrative impulse, whereas Trump¡¯s rhetoric and policies often emphasize division and material power, which runs counter to the spiritual and social renewal I have in mind. The impulse to foster human development and societal cohesion is what ultimately tipped the balance.

?

greetings,

?

Kokanje


Re: Steiner and the current political right

 

Hi Geoffrey,
?
no article, but I asked ChatGPT, roleplaying as Steiner a while back.
?
I had to nudge him a bit, but in the end he endorsed Harris.
?
Here¡¯s the conversation (for what it¡¯s worth). I¡¯m also interested in what people would make of it, so looking forward to any articles on this.

?

Me:

Hey Rudolph, if you were eligible to vote, would you vote for Trump or Harris in the next US presidential elections. Whose position would reflect your ideas the most?

?

ChatGPT:

Ah, a most delicate question! If I were to consider such matters through the lens of anthroposophy, I would not focus so much on the individual candidates¡ªbe it Trump, Harris, or any other¡ªbut rather on the underlying spiritual and social impulses they represent. My perspective, as you know, is shaped by the idea of social threefolding, a vision where cultural life, political life, and economic life should each have their own independent development according to their intrinsic needs. In this light, I would seek to discern how each candidate¡¯s platform addresses these spheres.

?

Now, neither Trump nor Harris, from what I can perceive of their political orientations, seem to fully embody the principles of social threefolding or the spiritual renewal that I advocated for. Both are very much embedded in a political system that merges economic and state powers too closely, often leaving cultural and spiritual life neglected or manipulated by materialistic forces. This is a challenge not just in the United States, but globally.

?

However, let us consider the qualities at hand. I would look at:

? Cultural freedom: Does the candidate foster education, arts, and spirituality in a way that encourages human development?

? Political equality: Are they genuinely interested in the rights and dignity of individuals?

? Economic fraternity: Do they support policies that encourage cooperation and ethical business practices rather than purely self-serving economic interests?

?

In truth, my position would be one of caution and critical observation, for neither candidate reflects the deeper spiritual, social, and economic renewal that I believe is necessary. Rather than endorsing a particular individual, I would encourage voters to look beyond partisanship and ask: which path will best serve the human soul¡¯s evolution toward freedom, moral responsibility, and cooperation?

?

But alas, the political world as it exists is far from the ideal I envisioned, and such decisions must be made with discernment, always keeping in mind the greater spiritual good.

?

Me:

I respect you nuanced position. But let¡¯s say your options are limited to voting for one of these 2 candidates. Which one would you pick? Only the name please.

?

ChatGPT:

Given such a limitation, I would choose Harris.

?

Me:

And what made you choose her? What tipped the balance?

?

ChatGPT:

The balance tips in favor of Harris due to her generally greater alignment with values of inclusivity, social justice, and concern for the broader community. While neither candidate fully embodies the deeper spiritual and social ideals I envision, her positions suggest a more collaborative approach to governance and an emphasis on equality, which resonates more with the principles of political equality and?social cooperation that I advocate in anthroposophy.

?

Harris seems to reflect a more open and integrative impulse, whereas Trump¡¯s rhetoric and policies often emphasize division and material power, which runs counter to the spiritual and social renewal I have in mind. The impulse to foster human development and societal cohesion is what ultimately tipped the balance.

?

greetings,

?

Kokanje


Re: Steiner and the current political right

 

Hello,? Has anyone seen or written an article on how RS would vote in the US Presidential election??
Are there justifications for supporting Trump??

On Sat, Oct 26, 2024 at 11:42?AM Peter Staudenmaier via <pstaud=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Finn,

the earlier version of the journal, the one edited by Stein, published from 1936 to 1939. The current version chose the title deliberately as a sort of successor to Stein's journal, though the current one is really just the English-language spinoff of Der Europ?er. You can find the website of The Present Age?here:

A monthly international magazine for the advancement of Spiritual Science Symptomatic Essentials in politics, culture and economy Understanding of the world as it actually is, ability to bring spir¡­

Recent issues include the usual fare on Covid, Putin, Jews, and so forth. If you go back a few years (it has been publishing since 2015), it's a goldmine: regular articles by Martin Barkhoff, interviews with?Daniele Ganser, lots of Corona conspiracies, 5G conspiracies, the Grail, Ahriman, Ahasver, "The 9/11 Truth Movement"; anti-immigrant resentments dressed up in esoteric garb; climate denial; there¡¯s even some Anastasia stuff.

The October 2020 issue of The Present Age, for example, is full of Corona conspiracies, celebrations of the Querdenker protests, dire warnings about "health dictatorship" and the evils of vaccination and the "plandemic" and so forth, plus the horrors of mass migration and atheism, and Waldorf teacher Nicholas Dodwell declaring "The Corona pandemic is a lie."

The Present Age?August 2020 has lots more on "The Corona Plandemic" and vaccines, 5G, NATO, the Templars, the Mark of the Beast, the EU, the machinations of Ahriman ¨C and that's just the opening article. Then the terrible truth about Bill Gates, the Covid crisis as a step toward global dictatorship, the WHO, Carroll Quigley, and so on. The June 2020 issue promotes Davis Icke.

More recently the journal has celebrated Karl Heise, of all people; see Gaston Pfister, "Karl Heise, Okkultes Logentum: Thoughts on a New Edition" The Present Age?January 2022, 68-70, praising Heise's newly re-published conspiracist classic from 1921. Himmler was a fan of the book. Heise, an anthroposophist from 1916 onward, was one of the chief purveyors of antisemitic conspiracy myths about World War I, with direct support from Steiner himself. That legacy lives on proudly among Steiner's followers today.


Peter S.





From:?[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Finnef <vollnormaleforschung@...>
Sent:?Saturday, October 26, 2024 2:58 AM
To:?[email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject:?Re: [waldorf-critics] Steiner and the current political right
?
Hello Peter,
?
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 01:23 PM, Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
Those interested can take a look at the journal The Present Age: A monthly international magazine for the advancement of Spiritual Science, the sister publication to the Swiss journal Der Europ?er, a major platform for the hard right wing of contemporary anthroposophy.
I'm surprised that ¡°The Present Age¡± magazine still exists. As far as I know, it's very old. I know it because I read Thomas Tautz's biography of Walter Johannes Stein a few years ago. As far as I remember, W. J. Stein wrote for ¡°The Present Age¡± in England after he suddenly moved there in 1933.
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Now I wonder how far-right anthroposophy is in England. Are there any studies on this?
?
Greetings
Finn



--
Geoffrey L Gogan, Architect Planner AIA
C 973-896-8334? Fax 973-828-0354

?


Re: Anthroposophy and the history of Fascism

 

Finn,?
?
It must be a mistake or an oversight ;-)
?
Greetings,
?
Kokanje


Re: Anthroposophy and the history of Fascism

 

These sentences have been omitted from the AnthroWiki:
- "During the period of , he wrote and writings."
- "In 1941/42, he frequently wrote for the fascist newspaper ."
- "According to his own statements, he tried to fight racism in those years and give it an ¡°ethical and symbolic content¡±."