Re: "I think the community needs more explicit direction...."
Good, realistic examples are likely more helpful that explicit?instructions.? Different tactics, strategies and principles are more useful in different?contexts for teams with different skills, experience and levels of sophistication.
On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 11:33 AM J. B. Rainsberger < jbrains762@...> wrote: I would like to amplify Avi's comment below.
I have noticed something when programmers try to practise TDD: they don't seem to learn how to refactor. I don't mean to state this so harshly, but it seems that they struggle a lot more with refactoring than I did when I started. I have this feeling that "we" learned relatively quickly compared to what I see, even comparing myself programming in Java in 1999-2002 to today's programmer also working with Java. And today's Java programmers have better libraries and better tools! They use IDEA and Vavr, but I had Eclipse and plain Java. :)
I'd like to know your impressions. Which kinds of problems do people have when they try to learn how to refactor? When they learn how to guide a design to evolve? Why does it seem like they have more difficulty learning this than "we" had?
I admit that I probably have some strong cognitive distortion. That's why I'm asking this question.
Cheers, -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: :: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Avi Kessner <akessner@...>Date: Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 5:05 AM Subject: Re: [testdrivendevelopment] We are back on the air! To: < [email protected]> Is this the diagram you wanted to share?
I would recommend making a box which is part of the flow rather than some external dotted lines. For example, maybe the box should read, " Apply SOLID principles" as part of the refactoring, and then before the next failing test have something like, "design the contract"
I think the community needs more explicit direction on the design being done in those phases. On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 11:27 AM Roy Osherove < roy@...> wrote: ? Awesome.? I sent a new thread to the group about tdd diagrams.? Was it received?
Maybe.
If you sent it to the Yahoo! group, then no.
Please try again--at least until we figure out the transition. :) I want to see it! -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
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"I think the community needs more explicit direction...."
I would like to amplify Avi's comment below.
I have noticed something when programmers try to practise TDD: they don't seem to learn how to refactor. I don't mean to state this so harshly, but it seems that they struggle a lot more with refactoring than I did when I started. I have this feeling that "we" learned relatively quickly compared to what I see, even comparing myself programming in Java in 1999-2002 to today's programmer also working with Java. And today's Java programmers have better libraries and better tools! They use IDEA and Vavr, but I had Eclipse and plain Java. :)
I'd like to know your impressions. Which kinds of problems do people have when they try to learn how to refactor? When they learn how to guide a design to evolve? Why does it seem like they have more difficulty learning this than "we" had?
I admit that I probably have some strong cognitive distortion. That's why I'm asking this question.
Cheers, -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: :: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Avi Kessner <akessner@...>Date: Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 5:05 AM Subject: Re: [testdrivendevelopment] We are back on the air! To: < [email protected]> Is this the diagram you wanted to share?
I would recommend making a box which is part of the flow rather than some external dotted lines. For example, maybe the box should read, " Apply SOLID principles" as part of the refactoring, and then before the next failing test have something like, "design the contract"
I think the community needs more explicit direction on the design being done in those phases.
On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 11:27 AM Roy Osherove < roy@...> wrote: ? Awesome.? I sent a new thread to the group about tdd diagrams.? Was it received?
Maybe.
If you sent it to the Yahoo! group, then no.
Please try again--at least until we figure out the transition. :) I want to see it! -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
|
Re: We are back on the air!
Is this the diagram you wanted to share?
I would recommend making a box which is part of the flow rather than some external dotted lines. For example, maybe the box should read, " Apply SOLID principles" as part of the refactoring, and then before the next failing test have something like, "design the contract"
I think the community needs more explicit direction on the design being done in those phases.
On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 11:27 AM Roy Osherove < roy@...> wrote: ? Awesome.? I sent a new thread to the group about tdd diagrams.? Was it received?
Maybe.
If you sent it to the Yahoo! group, then no.
Please try again--at least until we figure out the transition. :) I want to see it! -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
|
Re: We are back on the air!
On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 11:27 AM Roy Osherove < roy@...> wrote: ? Awesome.? I sent a new thread to the group about tdd diagrams.? Was it received?
Maybe.
If you sent it to the Yahoo! group, then no.
Please try again--at least until we figure out the transition. :) I want to see it! -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
|
Re: We are back on the air!
I don't see a diagram, just the conversation about the logo. brought to you by the letters A, V, and I
and the number 47
On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 12:27 PM Roy Osherove < roy@...> wrote: Awesome.? I sent a new thread to the group about tdd diagrams.? Was it received? On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 10:30 J. B. Rainsberger < me@...> wrote: Hello, folks! We are back.
Maybe you weren't expecting this email, but here it is. This group is back as a web resource, safe from whatever Yahoo! plans to do with the content. I hope it continues to help you.
I intend to bring some of the conversations happening on social media into this group, in part to make it easier to expand in longer form on the ideas and in part to make them easier for you to follow and participate. You don't need to have been there when the conversation happened. I encourage you to do the same.
I also intend to revive this group as a resource for the confused. If you need help with evolutionary design and/or TDD, then you can trust the answers here more than you can trust the answers "out there". The people here who want to answer you likely have more experience and care more about your success. At least I'd like to attract more of those people here.
So there it is! I apologize for the momentary spike in messages as you adjust your email filters. I have to do the same. Enjoy!
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: We are back on the air!
Awesome.? I sent a new thread to the group about tdd diagrams.? Was it received?
On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 10:30 J. B. Rainsberger < me@...> wrote: Hello, folks! We are back.
Maybe you weren't expecting this email, but here it is. This group is back as a web resource, safe from whatever Yahoo! plans to do with the content. I hope it continues to help you.
I intend to bring some of the conversations happening on social media into this group, in part to make it easier to expand in longer form on the ideas and in part to make them easier for you to follow and participate. You don't need to have been there when the conversation happened. I encourage you to do the same.
I also intend to revive this group as a resource for the confused. If you need help with evolutionary design and/or TDD, then you can trust the answers here more than you can trust the answers "out there". The people here who want to answer you likely have more experience and care more about your success. At least I'd like to attract more of those people here.
So there it is! I apologize for the momentary spike in messages as you adjust your email filters. I have to do the same. Enjoy!
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
|
Hello, folks! We are back.
Maybe you weren't expecting this email, but here it is. This group is back as a web resource, safe from whatever Yahoo! plans to do with the content. I hope it continues to help you.
I intend to bring some of the conversations happening on social media into this group, in part to make it easier to expand in longer form on the ideas and in part to make them easier for you to follow and participate. You don't need to have been there when the conversation happened. I encourage you to do the same.
I also intend to revive this group as a resource for the confused. If you need help with evolutionary design and/or TDD, then you can trust the answers here more than you can trust the answers "out there". The people here who want to answer you likely have more experience and care more about your success. At least I'd like to attract more of those people here.
So there it is! I apologize for the momentary spike in messages as you adjust your email filters. I have to do the same. Enjoy!
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
|
Re: [TDD] An icon for TDD? 200x200 px.
Hi, folks. I decided to use Nat Pryce's diagram as the logo. Feel free to continue to provide suggestions, if you like.
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
Teaching evolutionary design and TDD since 2002
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Re: [TDD] An icon for TDD? 200x200 px.
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Show quoted text
?
There can be only one :-) Red, green, refactor. In the usual loop.?
Cheers? Mark?
?
Hey, folks. I have a cover photo for the new group, but I need an icon that represents TDD. Something square, ideally 200px square.
Any suggestions?
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
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Re: [TDD] An icon for TDD? 200x200 px.
I'd vote for Red, green, refactor! Fantastic! Where are the graphic designers?
--
Edwin G. Castro
?
There can be only one :-) Red, green, refactor. In the usual loop.?
Cheers? Mark?
?
Hey, folks. I have a cover photo for the new group, but I need an icon that represents TDD. Something square, ideally 200px square.
Any suggestions?
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
|
Re: [TDD] An icon for TDD? 200x200 px.
There can be only one :-) Red, green, refactor. In the usual loop.?
Cheers? Mark?
?
Hey, folks. I have a cover photo for the new group, but I need an icon that represents TDD. Something square, ideally 200px square.
Any suggestions?
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
|
An icon for TDD? 200x200 px.
Hey, folks. I have a cover photo for the new group, but I need an icon that represents TDD. Something square, ideally 200px square.
Any suggestions?
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
|
Re: [TDD] Re: Owners/Moderators: Transfering this group to groups.io
Me too ¨C still here ?
From: testdrivendevelopment@... <testdrivendevelopment@...>
Sent: 30 October 2019 19:50
To: testdrivendevelopment@...
Subject: [TDD] Re: Owners/Moderators: Transfering this group to groups.io
I too can hear you... didn't know I was part of this group
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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ANN: This group is moving to groups.io soon
Hi, folks. I bet you didn't even remember that you were a member of this group!
We are transferring this group to . This wil happen in the next 1-2 weeks, so if you start receiving emails from , don't panic.
Groups.io will allow you to continue to participate in these discussions entirely by email, so not much will change except that if you've set up any email filters, you'll need to do a little work to migrate them to . Sorry about that.
I hope that we can revive some discussions here!
I'm happy to pay to transfer this group so that we can rescue the content and perhaps preserve it somehow. (Groups.io has an export facility that I haven't tried yet.) I'll look into that once the excitement of racing against Yahoo!'s deadline has passed.
Incidentally, we've recovered the extremeprogramming group, too, and there have even been some new discussions there. If that interests you, then visit /g/extremeprogramming
Thanks! -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
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Re: [TDD] Owners/Moderators: Transfering this group to groups.io
Hi all,
I'm pretty certain this group was started as a feedback forum for the first TDD book written, I don't actually remember the author tho.
When I look in the group archive on it seems to be Kent Beck.
Maybe Charlie have contact with him still ?
Regards,
//Samuel
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Show quoted text
On 2019-10-30 19:46, Charlie Poole charliepoole@... [testdrivendevelopment] wrote: Hi Joe,
At least one guy is hearing you! I think it's a great idea but I don't know who the owner of this group is.
Charlie
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 11:03 AM 'J. B. Rainsberger' jbrains762@... <mailto:jbrains762@...> [testdrivendevelopment] <testdrivendevelopment@... <mailto:testdrivendevelopment@...>> wrote:
__
Hi, folks. My recent messages are either not being delivered or are
slow to be delivered, so I can't tell whether anyone is hearing me. :)
Please do these two things:
1. Make me an owner of this group.
2. Invite [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> to this group.
These will help us transfer the group to groups.io <>.
Thanks!
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: ::
::
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Re: [TDD] Owners/Moderators: Transfering this group to groups.io
Nothing will go to groups.io until the group has been transfered.
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Re: [TDD] Re: Yahoo Groups Discontinued
?
I¡¯m all for it. Transfer away!
Whoever can see this and has the authority, please invite [email protected] to this group.
Thanks.
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
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Re: [TDD] Owners/Moderators: Transfering this group to groups.io
I just now realized that I should email the owner email address directly, so I've done that.
?
Hi Joe,
At least one guy is hearing you! I think it's a great idea but I don't know who the owner of this group is.
Charlie
?
Hi, folks. My recent messages are either not being delivered or are slow to be delivered, so I can't tell whether anyone is hearing me. :)
Please do these two things:
1. Make me an owner of this group.
These will help us transfer the group to .
Thanks! -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
-- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
|
Re: [TDD] Owners/Moderators: Transfering this group to groups.io
FYI both messages came via Yahoo groups and not
Cheers? Mark?
?
Hi, folks. My recent messages are either not being delivered or are slow to be delivered, so I can't tell whether anyone is hearing me. :)
Please do these two things:
1. Make me an owner of this group.
These will help us transfer the group to .
Thanks! -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: :: ::
|
Re: Owners/Moderators: Transfering this group to groups.io
I too can hear you... didn't know I was part of this group
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J. B. Rainsberger
Mark Levison