And the arrow…
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On 7 Sep 2018, at 7:54, John Johnson wrote:
Nice looking board! I agree with the hole-size concern.
Looks like you have a sliver (see the arrow), so you might want to try using multiple passes and/or going over the board with an Xacto knife.
On 6 Sep 2018, at 13:08, tsames2008 via Groups.Io wrote:
Alright, after almost a month, finally created my first layout using etching, drilling and milling (to cut out the boar).? Now this is my test run to see if everything lines up.? Now that it does, I will increase the depth to fully cut the drill holes out and cut the board out.
?
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Nice looking board! I agree with the hole-size concern.
Looks like you have a sliver (see the arrow), so you might want to try using multiple passes and/or going over the board with an Xacto knife.
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On 6 Sep 2018, at 13:08, tsames2008 via Groups.Io wrote:
Alright, after almost a month, finally created my first layout using etching, drilling and milling (to cut out the boar).? Now this is my test run to see if everything lines up.? Now that it does, I will increase the depth to fully cut the drill holes out and cut the board out.
?
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your drill sizes are too big, do you have a smaller drill ?? those header pads will struggle to hold together and you'll be relying on solder a lot
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Alright, after almost a month, finally created my first layout using etching, drilling and milling (to cut out the boar).? Now this is my test run to see if everything lines up.? Now that it does, I will increase the depth to fully cut the drill holes out and cut the board out.
?
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On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 01:47:56 -0700, you wrote: Made a schematic and then tried the board. Gave autoroute a go and got a reasonable board.
Problem is there are areas I have made errors on both the board and schematic. Trying to undo and go back I nowe have a error stating the changes on either will not update the other. e.g. changes on the schematic will not be shown on the board.
Any ideas how to fix this or do I start from scratch? You must have both the board and schematic open at the same time. Make changes on the schematic, and the board will follow, ditto with adding or deleting parts. However, when you rewire something in the schematic, you will find stubs for former connections. Since you used the autorouter for everything, just ripup all the tracks (default ripup) and try again. If you use a ground pour polygon, delete those polygons first since the autorouter is not happy with existing polygons, it will not route all the wires in that case. Give it a try to see if this is the case for your board. Each time you save the board, you will find that eagle keeps backups in the form of name.b#n and name.s#n. If you have edited the board separately from the schematic, then the dates and times of the existing .brd and .sch file will not match. Go back (.b#1 is the most recent) and rename name.b#1 (for example) name01.brd, do the same with the schematic. Open both, and then run consistency checks. You'll have your work before you made the separate changes. If this doesn't work, then go back and look at name.b#2, .b#3, etc. Harvey
Thanks Vaughn
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Hi, first of all, you have to check if f/b annotation is active or severed (almost sure is severed), to fix that you have to back to schematic or board (this time just open one of two files) (that error was occurred by changing one file without the another one opened, like adding or deleting parts, changing names and so on) once have you thought returned to active state open the other file to make sure they has.
for more information check this links
Best regards
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Made a schematic and then tried the board. Gave autoroute a go and got a reasonable board.
Problem is there are areas I have made errors on both the board and schematic. Trying to undo and go back I nowe have a error stating the changes on either will not update the other. e.g. changes on the schematic will not be shown on the board.
Any ideas how to fix this or do I start from scratch?
Thanks Vaughn
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No problems milling SMD boards so far (picture attached).? Just very tedious to place components by hand and get the right amount of solder.? I use solder past thinned with liquid flux - this is applied using a fine wire pickup loop.? If "vias" are needed I use 1/32" x 1/4" brass rivets, pre - cleaned before inserting in the board.? Solder rivet head side first, then crop to nearly flush and solder this side second.
All tools are zeroed with calibrated touch probe on copper - this is accurate to better than 25 microns (0.001"). Cutting depth fixed at -0.2mm.? Spindle speed set at 18000rpm on 30degree engraving cutter with 0.2mm (.008") wide cutting tip.
Vacuum fixture is milled from hardwood and uses a vane type vacuum pump to pull about - .75bar in normal operation.? More pics attached for interest.
Peter
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Okay, no one actually gave the settings that could have saved me days so I will post what I used to save someone else time and frustration.
while using a .1 mm 30 degree V bit, I used:
Single pass
Isolation Minimum 1.35 mils
(not used) Maximum 6 mils
(not used) Step 1.5 mils
Z Down -4 mils
I used Z Probe for every etching.
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Sorry for the multiple responses.? I appreciate your suggestions and will give your approach a try.
?
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From: Rick Obel
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 11:06 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks
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I do not use smd.?
?
From: Rick Obel
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 11:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks
?
I tried autoleveler and concluded (maybe wrongly) that the PCB board high spots were the result of very minor warpage, not inconsistencies in the materials’
thickness.? As a result, I reasoned, when the autoleveler measures the height, it does so without the benefit of any pressure (mere electrical contact triggers height measurement), but when cutting, a little pressure will force the PCB’s high spots down, with
the result that they are not fully cut in those areas.? To remedy that problem, I bought a thick piece of Plexiglas, a vacuum pump and other materials to make my own vacuum board, but then realized that I could get good results, cutting not more than 0.10
mm in two passes of 0.05mm each, by simply leveling my MDF in advance of a days’ cutting.? (I don’t know if it moisture or thermal expansion/contraction, or otherwise, but I find that more than after a few days, the MDF takes on a warp of up to 0.10mm. )
?
I would be very interested to see others’ vacuum boards.? I saw Peter’s earlier comment about success with his vacuum board (table) and his good results cutting
0.2mm? -- he must have meant 0.20 mm, right?? Because 0.2mm is 4 passes at 0.05, and I typically need only 1 pass, and rarely more than two.? Am I missing something here?? The boards I am cutting are usually 4”x6”, and are much more problematic than 2”x3”.
?
?
?
Assume that you not use SMD on your PCB as etching with 0.9 mm….
Autoleveler is perfect to correct the copper default. I use 2 flutes V type 60° dia 0.127 mm with 0.05 mm depth and it is not necessary to make further pass.
?Mini = 0.0254, Max = 0.762, Step = 0.0508, Feedrate = 400, Turn = 12000 T/mn. I can etch for SSOP.
(The problem remains welding ;-)..)
?
Bernard ?
?
?
My approach is very similar to Sam’s, but three differences that I believe help:
1.??????
Immediately before cutting a PCB, I pre-level my sacrifice board, which is MDF.? I believe that the MDF warps over time, even though I rarely remove
it, or even adjust it.
2.??????
I don’t use angled bits (sorry I don’t know the correct terminology). ?Instead, I find that conventional end mills produce a cleaner, more consistent
cut.? I am still experimenting with diameters, but find 0.6mm breaks easily, while 0.9 is unnecessarily wide.? Lately, I have been using 0.7mm but will focus on 0.8 next.
3.??????
If the incomplete etching (is that the right word?) is localized, I will re-run just those areas at a deeper depth.
Rarely do I need three passes, and a second pass is only required about half the time.
-Rick
?
?
You might try my single pass etch approach, which I now use for all of my boards.? I setup pcb-gcode to do a singe pass etch for all traces and shapes.? After completion, I inspect
the board without removing it from the fixture.? If I see any areas with incomplete etching, I lower my z-axis zero point by 2 mils and re-etch the board with the same gcode file.? I continue with this until I have a nicely etched PCB which usually only takes
about 1 to 3 passes.? This approach also corrects most leveling issues as well.? I try to keep my trace widths over 12 mils because each pass will shrink your trace width by about 1 mill for a 30 degree spade bit.
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From: Rick Obel
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 11:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks
?
I tried autoleveler and concluded (maybe wrongly) that the PCB board high spots were the result of very minor warpage, not inconsistencies in the materials’
thickness.? As a result, I reasoned, when the autoleveler measures the height, it does so without the benefit of any pressure (mere electrical contact triggers height measurement), but when cutting, a little pressure will force the PCB’s high spots down, with
the result that they are not fully cut in those areas.? To remedy that problem, I bought a thick piece of Plexiglas, a vacuum pump and other materials to make my own vacuum board, but then realized that I could get good results, cutting not more than 0.10
mm in two passes of 0.05mm each, by simply leveling my MDF in advance of a days’ cutting.? (I don’t know if it moisture or thermal expansion/contraction, or otherwise, but I find that more than after a few days, the MDF takes on a warp of up to 0.10mm. )
?
I would be very interested to see others’ vacuum boards.? I saw Peter’s earlier comment about success with his vacuum board (table) and his good results cutting
0.2mm? -- he must have meant 0.20 mm, right?? Because 0.2mm is 4 passes at 0.05, and I typically need only 1 pass, and rarely more than two.? Am I missing something here?? The boards I am cutting are usually 4”x6”, and are much more problematic than 2”x3”.
?
?
?
Assume that you not use SMD on your PCB as etching with 0.9 mm….
Autoleveler is perfect to correct the copper default. I use 2 flutes V type 60° dia 0.127 mm with 0.05 mm depth and it is not necessary to make further pass.
?Mini = 0.0254, Max = 0.762, Step = 0.0508, Feedrate = 400, Turn = 12000 T/mn. I can etch for SSOP.
(The problem remains welding ;-)..)
?
Bernard ?
?
?
My approach is very similar to Sam’s, but three differences that I believe help:
1.??????
Immediately before cutting a PCB, I pre-level my sacrifice board, which is MDF.? I believe that the MDF warps over time, even though I rarely remove
it, or even adjust it.
2.??????
I don’t use angled bits (sorry I don’t know the correct terminology). ?Instead, I find that conventional end mills produce a cleaner, more consistent
cut.? I am still experimenting with diameters, but find 0.6mm breaks easily, while 0.9 is unnecessarily wide.? Lately, I have been using 0.7mm but will focus on 0.8 next.
3.??????
If the incomplete etching (is that the right word?) is localized, I will re-run just those areas at a deeper depth.
Rarely do I need three passes, and a second pass is only required about half the time.
-Rick
?
?
You might try my single pass etch approach, which I now use for all of my boards.? I setup pcb-gcode to do a singe pass etch for all traces and shapes.? After completion, I inspect
the board without removing it from the fixture.? If I see any areas with incomplete etching, I lower my z-axis zero point by 2 mils and re-etch the board with the same gcode file.? I continue with this until I have a nicely etched PCB which usually only takes
about 1 to 3 passes.? This approach also corrects most leveling issues as well.? I try to keep my trace widths over 12 mils because each pass will shrink your trace width by about 1 mill for a 30 degree spade bit.
|
I tried autoleveler and concluded (maybe wrongly) that the PCB board high spots were the result of very minor warpage, not inconsistencies in the materials’
thickness.? As a result, I reasoned, when the autoleveler measures the height, it does so without the benefit of any pressure (mere electrical contact triggers height measurement), but when cutting, a little pressure will force the PCB’s high spots down, with
the result that they are not fully cut in those areas.? To remedy that problem, I bought a thick piece of Plexiglas, a vacuum pump and other materials to make my own vacuum board, but then realized that I could get good results, cutting not more than 0.10
mm in two passes of 0.05mm each, by simply leveling my MDF in advance of a days’ cutting.? (I don’t know if it moisture or thermal expansion/contraction, or otherwise, but I find that more than after a few days, the MDF takes on a warp of up to 0.10mm. )
?
I would be very interested to see others’ vacuum boards.? I saw Peter’s earlier comment about success with his vacuum board (table) and his good results cutting
0.2mm? -- he must have meant 0.20 mm, right?? Because 0.2mm is 4 passes at 0.05, and I typically need only 1 pass, and rarely more than two.? Am I missing something here?? The boards I am cutting are usually 4”x6”, and are much more problematic than 2”x3”.
?
?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Bernardc
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks
?
Assume that you not use SMD on your PCB as etching with 0.9 mm….
Autoleveler is perfect to correct the copper default. I use 2 flutes V type 60° dia 0.127 mm with 0.05 mm depth and it is not necessary to make further pass.
?Mini = 0.0254, Max = 0.762, Step = 0.0508, Feedrate = 400, Turn = 12000 T/mn. I can etch for SSOP.
(The problem remains welding ;-)..)
?
Bernard ?
?
?
My approach is very similar to Sam’s, but three differences that I believe help:
1.??????
Immediately before cutting a PCB, I pre-level my sacrifice board, which is MDF.? I believe that the MDF warps over time, even though I rarely remove
it, or even adjust it.
2.??????
I don’t use angled bits (sorry I don’t know the correct terminology). ?Instead, I find that conventional end mills produce a cleaner, more consistent
cut.? I am still experimenting with diameters, but find 0.6mm breaks easily, while 0.9 is unnecessarily wide.? Lately, I have been using 0.7mm but will focus on 0.8 next.
3.??????
If the incomplete etching (is that the right word?) is localized, I will re-run just those areas at a deeper depth.
Rarely do I need three passes, and a second pass is only required about half the time.
-Rick
?
?
You might try my single pass etch approach, which I now use for all of my boards.? I setup pcb-gcode to do a singe pass etch for all traces and shapes.? After completion, I inspect
the board without removing it from the fixture.? If I see any areas with incomplete etching, I lower my z-axis zero point by 2 mils and re-etch the board with the same gcode file.? I continue with this until I have a nicely etched PCB which usually only takes
about 1 to 3 passes.? This approach also corrects most leveling issues as well.? I try to keep my trace widths over 12 mils because each pass will shrink your trace width by about 1 mill for a 30 degree spade bit.
|
Assume that you not use SMD on your PCB as etching with 0.9 mm…. Autoleveler is perfect to correct the copper default. I use 2 flutes V type 60° dia 0.127 mm with 0.05 mm depth and it is not necessary to make further pass. ?Mini = 0.0254, Max = 0.762, Step = 0.0508, Feedrate = 400, Turn = 12000 T/mn. I can etch for SSOP. (The problem remains welding ;-)..) ? Bernard ? ? ? My approach is very similar to Sam’s, but three differences that I believe help: 1.?????? Immediately before cutting a PCB, I pre-level my sacrifice board, which is MDF.? I believe that the MDF warps over time, even though I rarely remove it, or even adjust it. 2.?????? I don’t use angled bits (sorry I don’t know the correct terminology). ?Instead, I find that conventional end mills produce a cleaner, more consistent cut.? I am still experimenting with diameters, but find 0.6mm breaks easily, while 0.9 is unnecessarily wide.? Lately, I have been using 0.7mm but will focus on 0.8 next. 3.?????? If the incomplete etching (is that the right word?) is localized, I will re-run just those areas at a deeper depth. Rarely do I need three passes, and a second pass is only required about half the time. -Rick ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of sdmonaco via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 7:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks? You might try my single pass etch approach, which I now use for all of my boards.? I setup pcb-gcode to do a singe pass etch for all traces and shapes.? After completion, I inspect the board without removing it from the fixture.? If I see any areas with incomplete etching, I lower my z-axis zero point by 2 mils and re-etch the board with the same gcode file.? I continue with this until I have a nicely etched PCB which usually only takes about 1 to 3 passes.? This approach also corrects most leveling issues as well.? I try to keep my trace widths over 12 mils because each pass will shrink your trace width by about 1 mill for a 30 degree spade bit.
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A vacuum table with a leveled top is indeed a good approach. However, that only ensures that the BOTTOM of the board is level. In my experience, not all FR4 is consistent in thickness. Remember that 1oz copper is only 0.0347mm thick. Autolevelling is the only way to track the top surface. If you do this you could use a smaller depth of cut with correspondingly narrower kerf with your V bit.
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can you post image of your vacuo system?
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My approach is to use a small vacuum table with a sacrificial MDF top, leveled in-situ. No need to use an autoleveler - the vacuum ensures the FR4 is absolutely flat and tight to the surface and has no spring whatsoever.
Can consistently mill accurate 0.3mm tracks and isolation if required using a 30degree tool with a 0.2 mm spade tip. Cutting depth is set in pcbgcode to 0.2mm.
Peter
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My approach is very similar to Sam’s, but three differences that I believe help:
1.??????
Immediately before cutting a PCB, I pre-level my sacrifice board, which is MDF.? I believe that the MDF warps over time, even though I rarely remove
it, or even adjust it.
2.??????
I don’t use angled bits (sorry I don’t know the correct terminology). ?Instead, I find that conventional end mills produce a cleaner, more consistent
cut.? I am still experimenting with diameters, but find 0.6mm breaks easily, while 0.9 is unnecessarily wide.? Lately, I have been using 0.7mm but will focus on 0.8 next.
3.??????
If the incomplete etching (is that the right word?) is localized, I will re-run just those areas at a deeper depth.
Rarely do I need three passes, and a second pass is only required about half the time.
-Rick
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of sdmonaco via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 7:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks
?
You might try my single pass etch approach, which I now use for all of my boards.? I setup pcb-gcode to do a singe pass etch for all traces and shapes.? After completion, I inspect
the board without removing it from the fixture.? If I see any areas with incomplete etching, I lower my z-axis zero point by 2 mils and re-etch the board with the same gcode file.? I continue with this until I have a nicely etched PCB which usually only takes
about 1 to 3 passes.? This approach also corrects most leveling issues as well.? I try to keep my trace widths over 12 mils because each pass will shrink your trace width by about 1 mill for a 30 degree spade bit.
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Use "Autoleveller" it will save you a lot of time and give you consistent track thicknesses.
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Hi Albert,
You might try my single pass etch approach, which I now use for all of my boards.? I setup pcb-gcode to do a singe pass etch for all traces and shapes.? After completion, I inspect the board without removing it from the fixture.? If I see any areas with incomplete etching, I lower my z-axis zero point by 2 mils and re-etch the board with the same gcode file.? I continue with this until I have a nicely etched PCB which usually only takes about 1 to 3 passes.? This approach also corrects most leveling issues as well.? I try to keep my trace widths over 12 mils because each pass will shrink your trace width by about 1 mill for a 30 degree spade bit.
Sam
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So I deleted the polygons on both sides and then added them back and connected them to ground again and now I get multiple passes around the tracks.
Aaargh!
I hate software.
But which software do I hate - eagle or pcb-gcode?
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John Johnson
Vaughn
