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FIXTURE for XMSN MEASUREMENTS


 

On Tue, May 20, 2025 at 07:58 AM, W0LEV wrote:


the BNC connectors are part of the fixture and I can not eliminate
them.

Dave, the connector is part of the fixture, but since its impedance is 50 ohms, its capacitance does not contribute to the stray fixture capacitance. If you measure an uninstalled connector, you can subtract the capacitance reading from what you measure for the fixture, which includes connector capacitance.

I'm glad you posted about your new fixture. I think I've been overly concerned about shunt capacitance at HF. I see lots of evidence of it in the .s2p files the commercial L and C manufacturers provide, but that's in the GHz range where tiny strays do matter.

Brian


 

Broam, the BNC connectors are part of the fixture and I can not eliminate
them. Yesterday, I even questioned my own measurement of 2.7 pF. I need
to revisit that today as it was a hurried measurement. I will get back
with you after I'm satisfied I made a rigorous measurement.

Dave - W?LEV

On Tue, May 20, 2025 at 12:30?AM Brian Beezley via groups.io <k6sti=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave, out of curiosity I created a circuit model for a common-mode choke.
It has an inductance, capacitance, and resistance in parallel. I chose the
values to mimic attenuation results for a common-mode choke someone sent me
a couple years ago. It's shown below. The choke was measured with a DG8SAQ
VNA with all four S-parameters. The software that accompanies the VNA can
implement what they call scripts. He ran the Y21 script and sent the
results. One of the neat features of the Y21 method is that it can
calculate the shunt capacitance at each port as well as the DUT response
with the capacitance nulled mathematically. Calculated shunt C was 2.8 to
7.3 pF depending on port and frequency. (I don't know why it varies with
frequency.) I used his choke to create my choke model. When I added a shunt
2.7 pF to each side of the choke in the model, I saw no difference in choke
attenuation to 30 MHz. I thought at least it would be noticeable, but the
curves overlap. I tried 27 pF to make sure the model was working, and I
could then see a small difference. 2.7 pF is about 2k ohms at 30 MHz. This
is comparable to the usual several-k ohm CMC impedance so I expected some
effect. You can notice the Y21/S21 difference below for a shunt capacitance
roughly double what you measured. The effect isn't great and is of no
consequence for choke attenuation, but it would be measurable.

One thing I often forget is that measured capacitance for a test fixture
like yours includes the connector capacitance. It is not stray capacitance.
It matches the connector inductance to form a 50 ohm impedance. You should
subtract the capacitance of a bare connector from the 2.7 pF you measured
to get the stray fixture capacitance. There is also capacitive coupling
between the choke and the VNA enclosure if it is nearby. That will
contribute to shunt capacitance.

Based on my circuit model. I think the capacitance of your fixture should
have a negligible effect at HF. It would be a good idea to verify that
expectation by measurement.

Brian





--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV


 

Dave, out of curiosity I created a circuit model for a common-mode choke. It has an inductance, capacitance, and resistance in parallel. I chose the values to mimic attenuation results for a common-mode choke someone sent me a couple years ago. It's shown below. The choke was measured with a DG8SAQ VNA with all four S-parameters. The software that accompanies the VNA can implement what they call scripts. He ran the Y21 script and sent the results. One of the neat features of the Y21 method is that it can calculate the shunt capacitance at each port as well as the DUT response with the capacitance nulled mathematically. Calculated shunt C was 2.8 to 7.3 pF depending on port and frequency. (I don't know why it varies with frequency.) I used his choke to create my choke model. When I added a shunt 2.7 pF to each side of the choke in the model, I saw no difference in choke attenuation to 30 MHz. I thought at least it would be noticeable, but the curves overlap. I tried 27 pF to make sure the model was working, and I could then see a small difference. 2.7 pF is about 2k ohms at 30 MHz. This is comparable to the usual several-k ohm CMC impedance so I expected some effect. You can notice the Y21/S21 difference below for a shunt capacitance roughly double what you measured. The effect isn't great and is of no consequence for choke attenuation, but it would be measurable.

One thing I often forget is that measured capacitance for a test fixture like yours includes the connector capacitance. It is not stray capacitance. It matches the connector inductance to form a 50 ohm impedance. You should subtract the capacitance of a bare connector from the 2.7 pF you measured to get the stray fixture capacitance. There is also capacitive coupling between the choke and the VNA enclosure if it is nearby. That will contribute to shunt capacitance.

Based on my circuit model. I think the capacitance of your fixture should have a negligible effect at HF. It would be a good idea to verify that expectation by measurement.

Brian


 

On Mon, May 19, 2025 at 03:28 PM, W0LEV wrote:


That certainly is quite low especially for
HF frequencies.

Thanks for the info, Dave. Please measure a common-mode choke using the fixture with your HP VNA with S11, S21, S12, and S22 and post the .s2p. I'll see how the Y21 method compares with the usual S21 method. Any difference will be due to the shunt fixture capacitance.

Brian


 

1) My take on dynamic range is the ratio between the fixture with nothing
between the two ports to a fat and short as possible conductor between the
ports. With the recent images and using the HP8753C, that measured 80 dB
over the HF frequency range.

2) The capacitance at each port is 2.7 pF measured directly at each BNC
connector. I just measured it. That certainly is quite low especially for
HF frequencies.

Dave - W?LEV

On Mon, May 19, 2025 at 5:04?PM Brian Beezley via groups.io <k6sti=
[email protected]> wrote:

OK, after looking more carefully at the photos, I think you're referring
to the ratio of the desired signal through the device under test to the
residual feedthrough with the device absent. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Did you consider the effect of the increased capacitance to ground at each
port? It looks like it may be substantial. Easy to measure.

Brian





--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV


 

OK, after looking more carefully at the photos, I think you're referring to the ratio of the desired signal through the device under test to the residual feedthrough with the device absent. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Did you consider the effect of the increased capacitance to ground at each port? It looks like it may be substantial. Easy to measure.

Brian


 

On Mon, May 19, 2025 at 09:40 AM, W0LEV wrote:


that old fixture was limited to about 35 dB of dynamic range

Dave, what do you mean by dynamic range in this context?

Brian


 

You've all seen my fixture I use for evaluating transmission measurements
on various items, especially common mode chokes, filters, and other
circuits.

Well, that old fixture was limited to about 35 dB of dynamic range over the
HF frequencies, nominally 1 through 30 MHz. One day I went to work using
various methods to up that dynamic range. I ended up with easily 75 dB of
range after about 2-hours of work on the older fixture using the HP3585
spectrum analyzer with its tracking generator. Yesterday, I verified that
75 dB of dynamic range using the HP8753C. With that instrument the fixture
measured closer to 80 dB of range over 1 to 30 MHz. Have a look at the
attached images for the physical construction. YMMV.

Dave - W?LEV


--
Dave - W?LEV