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NanoVNA vs. NanaVNA-Saver #calibration

 

Hello all together,
I'm slightly confused how calibration parameters are used when running NanoVNA as stand-alone device or when connecting to Saver SW.

As stand alone I calibrate NanoVNA as described, save that as C0...C4 and device is working fine.
Now, when connecting to PC/Saver-SW it says "calibration active: Source: Device calibration". That is clear so far and I assume it is using that calibration set which is shown on the device (C0...C4)
(I guess I do not need to recalibrate the NanoVNA-device in this situation running under VNA_Saver ?)

What happens when I run the VNA-Saver calibration process on PC? (These new parameters can also be saved on disk, and be recalled later.)
Are these new paramters be downloaded to the device and premanentely replace any Cal data there ?
Or will they be downloaded to the device and just be used temporarily there?
Or are these Cal sets ignored by the device and only be used by VNASaver ?

If not used by the device, there are two different calibration sets then. One used by the device (e.g. C3), but VNA-Saver on PC is running on a different set of parameters?
That would lead to different data results between NanoVNA-LCD and Saver-PC data ?

I just want to be clear how that is handled between the device and Saver-SW, I'm not calling for any new feature :-)
 

Hello Ulrich,
the NanoVNA-Saver application calibration is in addition to a calibration
done on the device. You should always use the *same* calibration on the
NanoVNA itself when using NanoVNA-Saver's application calibration.

The advantage is in being able to use more data points than the 101 that
the NanoVNA is limited to - by increasing the number of "segments" - and by
using NanoVNA-Saver's averaging function, to avoid spurious spikes or
"noise" affecting the calibration result. (I put "noise" in quotes because
I always get scolded for using the term in places where it doesn't fit. I
think it's right here though ;-)

If you want to use the application calibration, set up the parameters you
want first - 10 segments for 1010 points, and 5x averaging, span from 50
kHz to 1500 MHz to give an example - and then start the "calibration
assistant". This will prompt you to connect the appropriate calibration
standards, and perform the sweeping for you. The read data for the
calibration will still be displayed in the main application while this is
going on.

The 5 manual calibration buttons are used to set the calibration data to
the data that's currently being displayed in the application. This way, a
set of calibration sweeps can be loaded from files, for example, or the
data can be manually inspected for suitability before applying it. Really,
I think the main use is when I do development work on the calibration
functions, and don't want to run through a complete calibration to test. ;-)

I hope this helps,
--
Rune / 5Q5R

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 09:08, UlrichKraft <kraftulrich1@...> wrote:

Hello all together,
I'm slightly confused how calibration parameters are used when running
NanoVNA as stand-alone device or when connecting to Saver SW.

As stand alone I calibrate NanoVNA as described, save that as C0...C4 and
device is working fine.
Now, when connecting to PC/Saver-SW it says "calibration active: Source:
Device calibration". That is clear so far and I assume it is using that
calibration set which is shown on the device (C0...C4)
(I guess I do not need to recalibrate the NanoVNA-device in this
situation running under VNA_Saver ?)

What happens when I run the VNA-Saver calibration process on PC? (These
new parameters can also be saved on disk, and be recalled later.)
Are these new paramters be downloaded to the device and premanentely
replace any Cal data there ?
Or will they be downloaded to the device and just be used temporarily
there?
Or are these Cal sets ignored by the device and only be used by VNASaver ?

If not used by the device, there are two different calibration sets then.
One used by the device (e.g. C3), but VNA-Saver on PC is running on a
different set of parameters?
That would lead to different data results between NanoVNA-LCD and Saver-PC
data ?

I just want to be clear how that is handled between the device and
Saver-SW, I'm not calling for any new feature :-)
 

hello, when I connect the nanoVNA to nanoVNA Saver the letter "Cx" (Calibration number) becomes lowercase. This tells me that nanoVNA is calibrated but on another frequency range. Yet the on frequency has not changed on the device and not in nanoVNA Saver. Is it all normal?
thanks
Lucio, I0LYL
 

I see the same thing, and it has not caused me any problems.

--
Rune / 5Q5R

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 10:23, Lucio I?LYL <lucio.i0lyl@...> wrote:

hello, when I connect the nanoVNA to nanoVNA Saver the letter "Cx"
(Calibration number) becomes lowercase. This tells me that nanoVNA is
calibrated but on another frequency range. Yet the on frequency has not
changed on the device and not in nanoVNA Saver. Is it all normal?
thanks
Lucio, I0LYL
 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 08:26 AM, Rune Broberg wrote:

You should always use the *same* calibration on the
NanoVNA itself when using NanoVNA-Saver's application calibration.
Hi Rune

Your github page says

"Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is in a reasonable calibration state. A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved to save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely uncalibrated, its readings may be outside the range accepted by the application."

I have experienced corrupted calibration data on the device which results in big numbers that cannot be read by nvna-s which then disconnects, so I understand the need to ensure some kind of device calibration before using nvna-s.

I understand that nvna-s can use the device calibration, or use one of its own calibration data sets which are independent of those stored on the device in C0 through C4.

But I must admit that I am unclear as to what is meant by "reasonable" and the "same" calibration.

Do you mean the same calibration kit, the same calibration regime i.e. SOL or SOILT, the same frequency span, the same reference plane etc?

Please could you elaborate.

73
Nick
G3VNC
 

Hi Nick,
by same I mean the *same*. The NanoVNA-Saver calibration is *not*
independent of the device calibration - on the contrary, it is in fact
dependent on that calibration staying the same.

The values returned by the NanoVNA to NanoVNA-Saver are the adjusted values
from the device calibration. NanoVNA-Saver further offers a calibration
based on these values - but it does not know the original raw values from
the device. I guess that could be implemented, but it is not currently. So
for application calibration to work, you must use the same calibration on
the NanoVNA when you take your measurements as you did when you calibrated
NanoVNA-Saver.

In general, while it's useful to save the calibration if you are using a
fixed installation with the same cables etc., calibrations are by their
nature very dependant on the connectors, cables etc. used, and any changes
of these necessitate a new calibration if you want accurate results.

--
Rune / 5Q5R

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 12:34, Nick <g3vnc@...> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 08:26 AM, Rune Broberg wrote:

You should always use the *same* calibration on the
NanoVNA itself when using NanoVNA-Saver's application calibration.
Hi Rune

Your github page says

"Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is in a
reasonable calibration state. A calibration of both ports across the entire
frequency span, saved to save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is
completely uncalibrated, its readings may be outside the range accepted by
the application."

I have experienced corrupted calibration data on the device which results
in big numbers that cannot be read by nvna-s which then disconnects, so I
understand the need to ensure some kind of device calibration before using
nvna-s.

I understand that nvna-s can use the device calibration, or use one of its
own calibration data sets which are independent of those stored on the
device in C0 through C4.

But I must admit that I am unclear as to what is meant by "reasonable" and
the "same" calibration.

Do you mean the same calibration kit, the same calibration regime i.e. SOL
or SOILT, the same frequency span, the same reference plane etc?

Please could you elaborate.

73
Nick
G3VNC
 

Thanks Rune. I did not understand the relationship between device cals and nvna-s cals.

Please allow me to check my understanding.

Let's say I want to measure a ferrite choke from 1 to 50MHz. I set up the cables and do a device cal over that frequency range using an appropriate cal kit. I save that cal to say C0.

With C0 selected on the device, I repeat the cal on nvna-s using the same frequency range, same cables, same cal kit and save it to cal_0.cal.

I can then measure my choke over the same frequency range using nvna-s with as many data points as I like using multiple segments.

Let's say I then want to measure a UHF filter over the range 100MHz to 900MHz. Obviously I cannot use C0 and cal_0.cal. So I set up with different cables and a different cal kit. I do a device cal over that frequency range and save it to C1.

With C1 selected on the device, I repeat the cal on nvna-s using the same frequency range, same cables, same cal kit and save it to cal_1.cal..

I can then measure my filter over the same frequency range using nvna-s with as many data points as I like using multiple segments and save the results to s*p files.

What if I then want to measure the filter over a restricted frequency range, say 400 to 500MHz?

Or a VHF filter with the same the cables and connectors from 100MHz to 200MHz?

Do I need a new pair of cals in either of these cases? (I would say not.)

Is it possible for nvna-s to detect what cal the device is set to i.e. C0 through C4, tell the user and set the correct scan range?

If nvna-s could read raw data from an uncalibrated nvna would that mean that all cals for fixed bench work could be performed by, and saved in, nvna-s if the user so wished?

Obviously for portable use the device cals are the only ones available.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 11:46 AM, Rune Broberg wrote:

by same I mean the *same*. The NanoVNA-Saver calibration is *not*
independent of the device calibration - on the contrary, it is in fact
dependent on that calibration staying the same.

The values returned by the NanoVNA to NanoVNA-Saver are the adjusted values
from the device calibration. NanoVNA-Saver further offers a calibration
based on these values - but it does not know the original raw values from
the device. I guess that could be implemented, but it is not currently.
 

You're right as far as I can tell - when you want to read data within the
previously calibrated span, you don't need to calibrate again, as long as
your setup is otherwise the same. For that very reason, I usually keep a
50kHz - 1500MHz calibration in C0 on my device.

Having the calibration purely within NanoVNA-Saver is certainly doable, and
something I could implement in the future, with the right support from the
firmware developers of course. :-)

But like others have mentioned: There is a difference between trying to get
the NanoVNA to the level of a high-level VNA, or trying to make it easier
to use for the use cases where the performance is already adequate. For
now, I'm working on some features for the latter, most notably mouse-based
zoom on the charts and logarithmic Y-axis scaling - but also some of the
former, like dialling in port extension in picoseconds within the software.

--
Rune / 5Q5R

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 16:18, Nick <g3vnc@...> wrote:

Thanks Rune. I did not understand the relationship between device cals
and nvna-s cals.

Please allow me to check my understanding.

Let's say I want to measure a ferrite choke from 1 to 50MHz. I set up the
cables and do a device cal over that frequency range using an appropriate
cal kit. I save that cal to say C0.

With C0 selected on the device, I repeat the cal on nvna-s using the same
frequency range, same cables, same cal kit and save it to cal_0.cal.

I can then measure my choke over the same frequency range using nvna-s
with as many data points as I like using multiple segments.

Let's say I then want to measure a UHF filter over the range 100MHz to
900MHz. Obviously I cannot use C0 and cal_0.cal. So I set up with
different cables and a different cal kit. I do a device cal over that
frequency range and save it to C1.

With C1 selected on the device, I repeat the cal on nvna-s using the same
frequency range, same cables, same cal kit and save it to cal_1.cal..

I can then measure my filter over the same frequency range using nvna-s
with as many data points as I like using multiple segments and save the
results to s*p files.

What if I then want to measure the filter over a restricted frequency
range, say 400 to 500MHz?

Or a VHF filter with the same the cables and connectors from 100MHz to
200MHz?

Do I need a new pair of cals in either of these cases? (I would say not.)

Is it possible for nvna-s to detect what cal the device is set to i.e. C0
through C4, tell the user and set the correct scan range?

If nvna-s could read raw data from an uncalibrated nvna would that mean
that all cals for fixed bench work could be performed by, and saved in,
nvna-s if the user so wished?

Obviously for portable use the device cals are the only ones available.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 11:46 AM, Rune Broberg wrote:

by same I mean the *same*. The NanoVNA-Saver calibration is *not*
independent of the device calibration - on the contrary, it is in fact
dependent on that calibration staying the same.

The values returned by the NanoVNA to NanoVNA-Saver are the adjusted
values
from the device calibration. NanoVNA-Saver further offers a calibration
based on these values - but it does not know the original raw values from
the device. I guess that could be implemented, but it is not currently.
 

Rune,

If I calibrate via NanoVNA-Saver can I save it to the NanoVNA so that I can use the NanoVNA as a standalone device?

Mike N2MS

On November 8, 2019 at 3:25 AM Rune Broberg <mihtjel@...> wrote:


Hello Ulrich,
the NanoVNA-Saver application calibration is in addition to a calibration
done on the device. You should always use the *same* calibration on the
NanoVNA itself when using NanoVNA-Saver's application calibration.
 

Hi, RUne,

I think that the full calibration of the device from Your software would be very useful for people (like me) that are using the nanoVna at 99% from the PC. If possible, please, add this feature ! - thanks in advance ! - Andrea IW2FDH
 

On 08/11/2019 15:18, Nick wrote:
Thanks Rune. I did not understand the relationship between device
cals and nvna-s cals.

Please allow me to check my understanding.

Let's say I want to measure a ferrite choke from 1 to 50MHz. I set
up the cables and do a device cal over that frequency range using an appropriate cal kit. I save that cal to say C0.

With C0 selected on the device, I repeat the cal on nvna-s using the
same frequency range, same cables, same cal kit and save it to cal_0.cal.

I can then measure my choke over the same frequency range using
nvna-s with as many data points as I like using multiple segments.
Yes

Let's say I then want to measure a UHF filter over the range 100MHz
to 900MHz. Obviously I cannot use C0 and cal_0.cal. So I set up with different cables and a different cal kit. I do a device cal over that frequency range and save it to C1.
No. According to my understanding from Rune. On connection nvna-s reads cal data from Memory 0 only, so unless your calibration originally covered the whole of the frequency range and was saved to C0 then as far as I understand that would not work.

With C1 selected on the device, I repeat the cal on nvna-s using the
same frequency range, same cables, same cal kit and save it to cal_1.cal..

I can then measure my filter over the same frequency range using
nvna-s with as many data points as I like using multiple segments and save the results to s*p files.

What if I then want to measure the filter over a restricted frequency
range, say 400 to 500MHz?

Or a VHF filter with the same the cables and connectors from 100MHz
to 200MHz?

Do I need a new pair of cals in either of these cases? (I would say
not.)

I would say that unless you make a full span course cal and use that from C0 then you would need to save manual cals for the other ranges and store them in C1..C3 and copy them to C0 before disconnecting from the nvna and reconnecting to pick up each new cal from C0.

Maybe Rune can clarify whether or not I have misunderstood his comments in


Barry
G4MKT
 

Hi Barry,
I don't know that you would need to do the whole copy around thing. I
haven't tried it, but I think it would work fine selecting a calibration
slot, slot 1 for example, and then using NanoVNA-Saver with the device with
that calibration active in the calibrated range.

*However*: My personal preference is to have Cal 0 be full span, and then
making a calibration within NanoVNA-Saver, using the calibration assistant,
with the "Segments" count set to perhaps 10 or even 20 - which gives you
1010 or 2020 data points for the calibration. This calibration can be full
span, or for the range you are interested in. You can then save this, or
any other calibration you make, as files which you can name more
intuitively than "cal 0", "cal 1" etc. ;-)

It's worth noting, that any calibration in NanoVNA-Saver is in reference to
the particular calibration done on the NanoVNA: So if you re-calibrate your
NanoVNA, your NanoVNA-Saver calibration ceases to be valid, and may give
incorrect readings.

--
Rune / 5Q5R

On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 at 01:26, Barry Jackson via Groups.Io <G4MKT=
[email protected]> wrote:

On 08/11/2019 15:18, Nick wrote:
> Thanks Rune. I did not understand the relationship between device
cals and nvna-s cals.
>
> Please allow me to check my understanding.
>
> Let's say I want to measure a ferrite choke from 1 to 50MHz. I set
up the cables and do a device cal over that frequency range using an
appropriate cal kit. I save that cal to say C0.
>
> With C0 selected on the device, I repeat the cal on nvna-s using the
same frequency range, same cables, same cal kit and save it to cal_0.cal.
>
> I can then measure my choke over the same frequency range using
nvna-s with as many data points as I like using multiple segments.
>

Yes

> Let's say I then want to measure a UHF filter over the range 100MHz
to 900MHz. Obviously I cannot use C0 and cal_0.cal. So I set up with
different cables and a different cal kit. I do a device cal over that
frequency range and save it to C1.
>

No. According to my understanding from Rune. On connection nvna-s reads
cal data from Memory 0 only, so unless your calibration originally
covered the whole of the frequency range and was saved to C0 then as far
as I understand that would not work.

> With C1 selected on the device, I repeat the cal on nvna-s using the
same frequency range, same cables, same cal kit and save it to cal_1.cal..
>
> I can then measure my filter over the same frequency range using
nvna-s with as many data points as I like using multiple segments and
save the results to s*p files.
>
> What if I then want to measure the filter over a restricted frequency
range, say 400 to 500MHz?
>
> Or a VHF filter with the same the cables and connectors from 100MHz
to 200MHz?
>
> Do I need a new pair of cals in either of these cases? (I would say
not.)

I would say that unless you make a full span course cal and use that
from C0 then you would need to save manual cals for the other ranges and
store them in C1..C3 and copy them to C0 before disconnecting from the
nvna and reconnecting to pick up each new cal from C0.

Maybe Rune can clarify whether or not I have misunderstood his comments
in



Barry
G4MKT
 

Rune,

Let me see if I understand this.

If I calibrate my NanaVNA full span and save it to Cal 0 can I calibrate via NanoVNA Saver the same full span using 10 "Segments"?


For HF work can I If I calibrate my NanaVNA 1-30Mnz and save it to Cal 1 and then I calibrate via NanoVNA Saver the same 1-30Mhz span using 10 "Segments"?

Mike N2MS

On November 13, 2019 at 2:12 AM Rune Broberg <mihtjel@...> wrote:


Hi Barry,
I don't know that you would need to do the whole copy around thing. I
haven't tried it, but I think it would work fine selecting a calibration
slot, slot 1 for example, and then using NanoVNA-Saver with the device with
that calibration active in the calibrated range.

*However*: My personal preference is to have Cal 0 be full span, and then
making a calibration within NanoVNA-Saver, using the calibration assistant,
with the "Segments" count set to perhaps 10 or even 20 - which gives you
1010 or 2020 data points for the calibration. This calibration can be full
span, or for the range you are interested in. You can then save this, or
any other calibration you make, as files which you can name more
intuitively than "cal 0", "cal 1" etc. ;-)
 

Rune,

I forgot some information about the NanoVNA Saver Cal:

If I calibrate my NanaVNA full span and save it to Cal 0 can I calibrate via NanoVNA Saver the same full span using 10 "Segments" to Cal 0?

For HF work - Can I calibrate my NanaVNA 1-30Mnz and save it to Cal 1 and then I calibrate via NanoVNA Saver the same 1-30Mhz span using 10 "Segments" to Cal 1?


Mike N2MS

On November 13, 2019 at 10:39 AM n2msqrp <msangelo@...> wrote:


Rune,

Let me see if I understand this.

If I calibrate my NanaVNA full span and save it to Cal 0 can I calibrate via NanoVNA Saver the same full span using 10 "Segments"?


For HF work can I If I calibrate my NanaVNA 1-30Mnz and save it to Cal 1 and then I calibrate via NanoVNA Saver the same 1-30Mhz span using 10 "Segments"?

Mike N2MS

On November 13, 2019 at 2:12 AM Rune Broberg <mihtjel@...> wrote:


Hi Barry,
I don't know that you would need to do the whole copy around thing. I
haven't tried it, but I think it would work fine selecting a calibration
slot, slot 1 for example, and then using NanoVNA-Saver with the device with
that calibration active in the calibrated range.

*However*: My personal preference is to have Cal 0 be full span, and then
making a calibration within NanoVNA-Saver, using the calibration assistant,
with the "Segments" count set to perhaps 10 or even 20 - which gives you
1010 or 2020 data points for the calibration. This calibration can be full
span, or for the range you are interested in. You can then save this, or
any other calibration you make, as files which you can name more
intuitively than "cal 0", "cal 1" etc. ;-)
 

Hi Mike,
you can - but the NanoVNA-Saver calibrations are not saved on the device,
but as files on your computer.

So I think you understand it right? :-)
--
Rune / 5Q5R

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 19:31, MICHAEL ST ANGELO <mstangelo@...>
wrote:

Rune,

I forgot some information about the NanoVNA Saver Cal:

If I calibrate my NanaVNA full span and save it to Cal 0 can I calibrate
via NanoVNA Saver the same full span using 10 "Segments" to Cal 0?

For HF work - Can I calibrate my NanaVNA 1-30Mnz and save it to Cal 1 and
then I calibrate via NanoVNA Saver the same 1-30Mhz span using 10
"Segments" to Cal 1?


Mike N2MS


On November 13, 2019 at 10:39 AM n2msqrp <msangelo@...> wrote:


Rune,

Let me see if I understand this.

If I calibrate my NanaVNA full span and save it to Cal 0 can I calibrate
via NanoVNA Saver the same full span using 10 "Segments"?


For HF work can I If I calibrate my NanaVNA 1-30Mnz and save it to Cal 1
and then I calibrate via NanoVNA Saver the same 1-30Mhz span using 10
"Segments"?

Mike N2MS

On November 13, 2019 at 2:12 AM Rune Broberg <mihtjel@...>
wrote:


Hi Barry,
I don't know that you would need to do the whole copy around thing. I
haven't tried it, but I think it would work fine selecting a
calibration
slot, slot 1 for example, and then using NanoVNA-Saver with the device
with
that calibration active in the calibrated range.

*However*: My personal preference is to have Cal 0 be full span, and
then
making a calibration within NanoVNA-Saver, using the calibration
assistant,
with the "Segments" count set to perhaps 10 or even 20 - which gives
you
1010 or 2020 data points for the calibration. This calibration can be
full
span, or for the range you are interested in. You can then save this,
or
any other calibration you make, as files which you can name more
intuitively than "cal 0", "cal 1" etc. ;-)
 

Rune,

I understand that NanoVNA-Saver calibrations aer saved to my computer.

Thanks,

Mike N2MS

On November 13, 2019 at 2:06 PM Rune Broberg <mihtjel@...> wrote:


Hi Mike,
you can - but the NanoVNA-Saver calibrations are not saved on the device,
but as files on your computer.

So I think you understand it right? :-)
--
Rune / 5Q5R

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 19:31, MICHAEL ST ANGELO <mstangelo@...>
wrote:

Rune,

I forgot some information about the NanoVNA Saver Cal:

If I calibrate my NanaVNA full span and save it to Cal 0 can I calibrate
via NanoVNA Saver the same full span using 10 "Segments" to Cal 0?

For HF work - Can I calibrate my NanaVNA 1-30Mnz and save it to Cal 1 and
then I calibrate via NanoVNA Saver the same 1-30Mhz span using 10
"Segments" to Cal 1?


Mike N2MS


On November 13, 2019 at 10:39 AM n2msqrp <msangelo@...> wrote:


Rune,

Let me see if I understand this.

If I calibrate my NanaVNA full span and save it to Cal 0 can I calibrate
via NanoVNA Saver the same full span using 10 "Segments"?


For HF work can I If I calibrate my NanaVNA 1-30Mnz and save it to Cal 1
and then I calibrate via NanoVNA Saver the same 1-30Mhz span using 10
"Segments"?

Mike N2MS

On November 13, 2019 at 2:12 AM Rune Broberg <mihtjel@...>
wrote:


Hi Barry,
I don't know that you would need to do the whole copy around thing. I
haven't tried it, but I think it would work fine selecting a
calibration
slot, slot 1 for example, and then using NanoVNA-Saver with the device
with
that calibration active in the calibrated range.

*However*: My personal preference is to have Cal 0 be full span, and
then
making a calibration within NanoVNA-Saver, using the calibration
assistant,
with the "Segments" count set to perhaps 10 or even 20 - which gives
you
1010 or 2020 data points for the calibration. This calibration can be
full
span, or for the range you are interested in. You can then save this,
or
any other calibration you make, as files which you can name more
intuitively than "cal 0", "cal 1" etc. ;-)

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