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The ultimate nanoVNA-H4 case?
Has anyone fond the ultimate H4 container wherein you could store cables and test items? I very much like what I have for my tinySA Ultra but I simply store my H4 in its original box.
I do not have a 3D printer (as of yet). A soft (foam?) interior would be nice. Tanks, larry |
Re: Tank circuits
Hello
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Thank you for these explanations. Would you like to show us oscillograms of the voltage on the drain, typical of a few cases. It takes us away from the NanoVNA subject but it is above all here that I read relevant theoretical remarks. -- Fran?ois F1AMM -----Message d'origine----- |
Re: Tank circuits
Even if transistor internal impedance is only tangentially related to the NanoVNA, I would like to weigh in on this matter. Particularly knowing that there are a lot of hams here.
In a power amplifier, a transistor typically goes through two or three very different conditions, in each RF cycle. Disregarding internal capacitances and inductances, which is a good approximation at relatively low frequencies, they are like this: - While the transistor is not conducting, it has an infinite internal impedance. - While it is saturated, it has a very low internal resistance, roughly like 0.1? for a BLF188. - While it is in active conduction, the gate voltage basically controls the drain current, so its behaviour is close to that of a current source, but not fully. Consequently its internal resistance at this time is pretty high, but not anywhere near infinity, and varies according to the instantaneous gate and drain voltages. If the amplifier circuit has negative feedback implemented by taking a sample of the drain voltage and injecting a proportional current into the gate drive circuit, as is often done, then this tends to make the amplifier control the drain voltage as a linear function of the drive voltage. In this case the internal resistance of the transistor+feedback cell during active conduction is very much lower than in an amplifier free from this kind of feedback. If this feedback is strong enough, it can turn the transistor+feedback combination into a pretty stiff voltage source, that is, give it a very low internal resistance. Another way to implement negative feedback is by inserting a small resistance in the source lead (or emitter, but BJTs are pretty obsolete now...). In fact all practical transistors have some such resistance built in, inevitably. This kind of negative feedback intensifies the current-source behaviour of a transistor, driving its internal resistance up instead of down, from the no-feedback value. Regardless of what kind and amount of negative feedback an amplifier has, the impedance of its transistor during saturation or OFF condition are the same as without any feedback, of course. The feedback can act only while the transistor is operating in its active range. When we make a push-pull amplifier, things get more complex. Because such a push-pull amplifier might have the two drains stiffly coupled together (in opposite phase, of course), by means of a true center-tapped transformer, or a bifiliar feed transformer, or it might have uncoupled drains, typically implemented by using two separate feed chokes, or (often unknowingly) by using a center-tapped transformer that isn't truly working as such. Since the load of a push-pull amplifier connects in a balanced fashion, between the two drains, the internal impedance of this contraption depends very much on drain-to-drain coupling. Let me put this in a little table, even if the format of the table might be messed up depending on what font you are using to see it: Transistor 1 Transistor 2 Z with coupled drains Z with uncoupled drains ============================================================== off off infinite infinite active off feedback-dependent infinite saturated off very low infinite active active feedback-dependent feedback-dependent active saturated very low feedback-dependent saturated saturated forbidden! very low If all this looks too complex, don't worry too much, because anyway we don't need to match the load to the internal resistance of our transistors. In addition to being pointless, it would be impossible! What we need to do is what Fran?ois already wrote: We need to present such a load resistance to our transistors that at the maximum acceptable drain RMS voltage (which depends on supply voltage and the distortion level that we are willing to accept), this load resistance will take the desired power. In the interest of efficiency, we actually want our transistor's internal resistance to be as DIFFERENT as possible from our load resistance! Zero ohm is great, infinite is also great, and that's why class D amplifiers are theoretically 100% efficient: They switch the transistors between saturation and OFF condition. An important point that many amateur power amplifier designers miss, is that we need to care not only about the load impedance at the operating frequency, but also at the harmonics. Since in almost any real RF power amplifier the transistors spend lots of time OFF, and sometimes some time saturated, and also in active mode they are quite nonlinear, there is always a lot of harmonic contents, which we don't want. So, while our matching network must present the proper load resistance to the transistor at the operating frequency, it needs to present either near-infinite or near-zero impedance at harmonic frequencies, if we want an efficient, clean amplifier. But it does matter a lot which option we choose: Very high or very low impedance! Our selection MUST properly match the characteristics of the amplifier configuration! For mainly high internal impedance, current-source configurations we need a matching circuit that shorts out the harmonics, such as a parallel tank or a Pi filter, while for a mostly low-impedance, voltage-sourcing configuration we need an output network that presents high impedances at the harmonics, such as a series tank or a T network. If we choose the wrong type, the efficiency of the amplifier will be much poorer than expected. Everything I wrote until here is valid as long as the frequency is low enough to disregard connection and device capacitances and inductances. Starting roughly in the medium HF range, this is no longer the case, and at UHF it definitely isn't! The principles remain the same, of course, but we need to calculate the load resistance that we will make appear right in the silicon chip of our transistor, taking into account its capacitance, the lead inductances, and all external wiring reactances. This tends to get quite complex. In push-pull amplifiers that operate over a wide bandwidth, such as 1.8-30MHz, an additional difficulty is that the degree of drain-to-drain coupling very often changes dramatically over the frequency range. If the design was made to use coupled drains, almost always the amplifier ends up having coupled drains only on the lower bands, and transiting into the behaviour of an amplifier with uncoupled drains on the higher bands. It might require one type of low pass filters on the low bands and a different type on the high bands, and also different biasing, to get optimal performance on each band. Also any signal runtime between the drains and the filters or matching circuits causes a different phase shift, and thus impedance transformation, on each harmonic. In that case, for example a Pi-type LP filter (low impedance at harmonics) might appear as any crazy reactance, or even infinite impedance, on some harmonics, totally messing up the amplifier. In HF power amplifiers this becomes a really big problem when using transmission line transformers, because these cause a long delay. Many designers end up using diplexer filters, because they find no other way to solve the problem. But diplexer filters increase the complexity and reduce the efficiency. Given the variability of a transistor's internal impedance over the RF cycle, it should be obvious that there is no way to measure it with the NanoVNA (or any VNA) directly. It's better to just calculate the required load impedance, design and build the network, then replace the transistor by a resistor of the calculated value, and measure with the NanoVNA into the 50? output of the network, to confirm that it's working as expected. If the amplifier has to operate above roughly 15MHz, it becomes necessary to use an RLC circuit that emulates not only the desired load resistance, but also the internal L and C of the transistor. And it has to be understood that the resistor is NOT an emulation of the transistor's internal resistance, but stands strictly for the load resistance that we want to apply on the transistor! Manfred |
Re: Why STIMULUS instead of FREQUENCY?
Stimulus is commonly used to describe the signal a network analyzer injects
into a circuit. For example, search for 8753C and the bottom left group of buttons on the front panel is labeled STIMULUS. There are plenty of examples if you search for "network analyzer stimulus". Orin. |
Re: Why STIMULUS instead of FREQUENCY?
STIMULUS is a perfectly valid term of art for a network input.
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Lester B Veenstra K1YCM M?YCM W8YCM 6Y6Y W8YCM/6Y 6Y8LV (Reformed USNSG CTM1) lester@... 452 Stable Ln Keyser WV 26726 USA GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) Telephones: Home: +1-304-289-6057 US cell +1-304-790-9192 Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of DougVL Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 6:59 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [nanovna-users] Why STIMULUS instead of FREQUENCY? I think it is/was because the original software and design were by a Chinese person, and that STIMULUS is the 'direct' or computer translation for the Chinese term for it. Maybe "Excitation" would be another translation of the same Chinese word. If you can find the person using the 'screen name' edy555, you could ask him. (The inventor.) -- Doug, K8RFT |
Re: Why STIMULUS instead of FREQUENCY?
The original design was by a Japanese engineer/ham back in 2016 and he goes by the moniker of edy555.
Hugen (Actually Gen Hu) is the Chinese engineer/ham who made some changes so it could be built inexpensively, figured out how to extend the frequency range using harmonics and commercialized it. Everything is in this forum's Wiki. |
Re: Why STIMULUS instead of FREQUENCY?
I think it is/was because the original software and design were by a Chinese person, and that STIMULUS
is the 'direct' or computer translation for the Chinese term for it. Maybe "Excitation" would be another translation of the same Chinese word. If you can find the person using the 'screen name' edy555, you could ask him. (The inventor.) -- Doug, K8RFT |
Re: Tank circuits
When I worked in semiconductor manufacturing making power devices (MSC, etc.), we often used internal bond wire inductance and single-layer chip capacitors inside the package to transform the sub-¦¸ transistor impedances to 3 to 4 ¦¸ at the leads, where transformers and/or microstrip lines would take over. The first external element was often a metal-cased mica UNELCO cap or a parallel pair, soldered directly from the collector lead to ground.
73, Don N2VGU |
Re: Why STIMULUS instead of FREQUENCY?
On 7/20/23 1:03 AM, Andrea I2UEA wrote:
Hi to everybody.Typically, on a VNA, you'd also set the power levels, in addition to frequency. So Stimulus is a more generalized term. |
Re: Why STIMULUS instead of FREQUENCY?
IDK. It is a bit unusual use of the word, but in English, it makes some sense. Commonly the VNA is hooked up to some passive circuit or device, like and RLC network, transmission line, antenna, or some combination, and the VNA outputs a signal to "drive", "excite", or "stimulate" it and characterize the response. Frequency is just frequency. It doesn't say if it's an output or input or say anything about a purpose of function.
|
Why STIMULUS instead of FREQUENCY?
Hi to everybody.
Just for my curiosity, I'd like to know why the menu command which allows to set the start/stop/center/span frequency is called STIMULUS rather than, more intuitive, FREQUENCY. In fact, the same command is called FREQUENCY in the TinySA and "stimulus" in my language reminds something related to bathroom. ? Just curiosity of course. The most important thing is that NanoVNA is working fine as it does. Great product! ? All the best! |
My NanoVNA H4: Si5351 or MS5351 ?
Hi. How can I know if in my NanoVNA H4 is fitted the Si5351 or MS5351? I'd like to properly set the menu CONFIG - EXPERT SETTINGS - MORE - MODE. I foud it set to Si5351.
Please find the attached picture of the inner PCB. The serial number is H4-23020519. I bought it from Eleshop in the beginning of May. Thank you for your help. |
Re: Tank circuits
See Message #24882 of 9/24/2021 which points out that the rule about directionality of an L-network applies only when both impedances to be matched are real, not complex.
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73 Maynard W6PAP On 7/18/23 11:11, Lester Veenstra via groups.io wrote:
Not sure that the initial tank referred to, although a VNA will measure a stand along tank (L and C in series or parallel across the terminals) just fine. |
Re: Tank circuits
I have used a NanoVNA to measure just about every kind of inductance,
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capacitance, resistance and resonant circuit there is in its frequency range. A tank circuit is just another resonant circuit. Nothing difficult about it. Zack W9SZ On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 8:02?AM Ma?l H?rz <mh-nexus@...> wrote:
To come back to the original question, searching the groups and the web |
Re: Tank circuits
go up in frequency and the single ohms impedance from high power fet is transformed with pcb traces ;-)
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shortwave?? ok there you use wideband transformers vhf uhf?? quarterwave lines are used there ... sometimes also pcb traces (uhf and up) shf and higher?? .. only pcb trace used to transform (finetuned with some small caps) so ... it depends on frequency what is used to transform 2-3 ohms (as example) to 50 ohms sigi dg9bfc Am 18.07.2023 um 21:44 schrieb W0LEV: With today's solid state finals, BJT or FET, there is no "resonant" circuit |
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