nanovna-users@groups.io

Re: NanoVNA App - Installation and Use #applications

GMRS_two_way_radio

Damn it, I was afraid you were going to say that. I don't like the other software :( 

How can I tell if I have the newer hardware? And if I do, what happens when I load your firmware into it? Will the display just not work but the software will???

Thanks

Re: NanoVNA App - Installation and Use #applications

#29416

V2Plus4 on original fw not supported by NanoVNA-App (as i remember, Owo not want fix several things in firmware for support)
Need fix several problems in exchange protocol on V2Plus4 side (or fix NanoVNA-App)

My fw for V2Plus4 allow work vs NanoVNA-App, but not support last V2Plus4 hardware (different LCD module).

I suggest use NanoVNA-QT, this software created for V2Plus4, and support by designer.

Re: NanoVNA App - Installation and Use #applications

GMRS_two_way_radio

#29415

Hi

I tried to post a topic on the problem i am having but it hasnt been approved yet :( 

I am having problems (i can't calibrate) with OneOfEleven NanoVNA-App, I am using the nanoVNA V2 plus4 model maybe its not compatible with that model. here is what i have done so far:

re-installed USB driver
I tried 2 other computers, same problem ( Windows 8.1 and Windows 10)
I tried another USB cable

here are two videos so show what is going on:

part 1 video:

part 2 video:

any help would be great!  thanks

problems with OneOfEleven NanoVNA-App

GMRS_two_way_radio

#29414

Hi

I am having problems (i can't calibrate) with OneOfEleven NanoVNA-App, I am using the nanoVNA V2 plus4 model maybe its not compatible with that model. here is what i have done so far:

re-installed USB driver
I tried 2 other computers, same problem ( Windows 8.1 and Windows 10)
I tried another USB cable

here are two videos so show what is going on:

part 1 video:

part 2 video:

any help would be great!  thanks

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

Michael Black

#29413

Are you measuring at the antenna?
You can't measure SWR accurately at the rig unless your antenna is zero reactance at 50Ohms.
Mike W9MDB

Show quoted text

On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 01:01:10 PM CDT, W0LEV <davearea51a@...> wrote:  
 
 A dipole, by definition, is resonant:? +jX = -jX = 0.

A doublet is a dipole, but not resonant where you require.

My 450-foot doublet exhibits its first 1/2-wavelength resonance at roughly
950 kHz, but does not show resonance in any of the HF ham bands.

Yes, measurements need to be made to reduce / minimize unwanted
reflections.? That's the devil in the details.

Dave - W?LEV

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 5:54 PM Roger Need via groups.io <sailtamarack=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 10:13 AM, W0LEV wrote:

A dipole works fine for the reference antenna.? Nominally 2.2_ dB gainover
isotropic.
That is the gain of a dipole antenna in free space at resonance.? Over
ground the gain is higher.? How much higher depends on height and ground
characteristics.

Roger

-- 
*Dave - W?LEV*
*Just Let Darwin Work*

-- 
Dave - W?LEV

DiSlord v1.2.0 instability even though MS5351 clock-generator is selected (MS-3.6 HW version)

#29412

Hi guys.

My original NanoVNA-H genuine (sourced from Eleshop in EU) has been working flawlessly with delivered 1.1.01 synchronised DiSlord firmware. After upgrading to DiSlord version 1.2.0 and selecting Ms5351 clock generator in options give severe signal error in around 420M-440Mhz and 600M something. Even reverting to Si5351 setting and back again as well as resetting all settings and creating completely new calibrations does not solve it. Only remedy is to revert back to 1.1.01 DiSlord synchronised version but then I miss all the new trace formats and especially the ability to flip screen.

Anyone know if there will be a DiSlord synchronised 1.2.0 version with MS or SI selectable initial clock generator setting?

Thanks

C

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

#29411

On 8/24/22 1:46 AM, F1AMM wrote:
M1 = Gunk * Gref1
M2 = Gref1 * Gref2
M3 = Gunk * Gref2
This assumes that Gunk Gref1 and Gref2 are constant during the three measurements. I do not see at all how one can fulfill this condition already because of the directionality of the antennas.
Or do you suppose that it is, for example, 3 yaggi that we reorient in the axis of each measure?

Yes, the antennas are mounted in the same positions, relative to each other, for all measurements.  The reference antennas can be dipoles. There's no need for all 3 antennas to have the same (approximate) gain.

This was for a "nose to nose" gain measurement.

If you need to do a radiation pattern, it gets trickier. Essentially you calibrate the "probe" antenna with a duplicate at known range.

if you want to measure radiation patterns, then reflections and such becomes a bigger issue.

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

#29410

On 8/24/22 1:36 AM, F1AMM wrote:
So Gunk = sqrt (Gunk^2)So Gunk = M1 * M3 / M2
No, Gunk = sqrt(M1*M3/M2)

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

F1AMM

#29409

M1 = Gunk * Gref1
M2 = Gref1 * Gref2
M3 = Gunk * Gref2

This assumes that Gunk Gref1 and Gref2 are constant during the three measurements. I do not see at all how one can fulfill this condition already because of the directionality of the antennas.

Or do you suppose that it is, for example, 3 yaggi that we reorient in the axis of each measure?

-- 
F1AMM (Fran?ois)

Show quoted text

-----Message d'origine-----De la part de Jim Lux
24 ao?t 2022 03:24

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

F1AMM

#29408

So Gunk = sqrt (Gunk^2) So Gunk = M1 * M3 / M2

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

#29407

On 8/23/22 1:59 PM, Donald S Brant Jr wrote:
NBS (now NIST) published the dimensions of a reference dipole for such uses: 2 1λ dipoles above a 1.6λ x 2λ ground plane.  Built properly it should have gain accurate to a few tenths dB or less at the design frequency.
The EIA published a similar standard gain antenna, shown in 5.2.5 of this document:    The paper also has good information on antenna gain testing.
73, Don N2VGU
It's also in the ARRL Antenna book.

But in reality, you can build two identical reference dipoles in almost any configuration (they don't even have to be resonant or matched to 50 0 ohms) and do a three cornered hat to remove the common term.

Let Gunk  be the gain of the unknown.
Let Gref1 and Gref2 be the gain of the reference antenna

Make three measurements at the same distance, with each possible pair.

M1 = Gunk * Gref1
M2 = Gref1 * Gref2
M3 = Gunk * Gref2	

M1*M3/M2 = (Gunk^2 * Gref1 * Gref2)/(Gref1 * Gref2) = Gunk^2

So Gunk = sqrt (Gunk^2)


Doing it in dB is easier, of course.


This doesn't account for ground bounce, reflections, etc. - That's another technique.

Re: Bug or fubar'd upgrade? #firmware

Cliff

#29406

Cool! Seems to work fine here on MacOS.

73,
Cliff, AE5ZA

Show quoted text

On Aug 23, 2022, at 19:15, Tim Dawson <tadawson@...> wrote:

FYI, the python based tool at  appears to pull perfect binary images out of the NanoVNA .dfu files found on Huygen's site (checksums the same as his .bin files).

The best news is that it is tiny, and being Python based, should work on any platform - Mac, Win, *nix - and allows the use of the ST Micro recommended Cube programmer tool

FWIW . . .

 - Tim

On 08/23/2022 02:37 AM, Ho-Ro wrote:
On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 08:58 AM, Ho-Ro wrote:

To build the FW ... just type "make" and "make flash",
Default is -H, for -H4 the command is

TARGET=F303 make && make flash

-- 
Tim Dawson

972-567-9360

Re: Bug or fubar'd upgrade? #firmware

#29405

FYI, the python based tool at  appears to pull perfect binary images out of the NanoVNA .dfu files found on Huygen's site (checksums the same as his .bin files).

The best news is that it is tiny, and being Python based, should work on any platform - Mac, Win, *nix - and allows the use of the ST Micro recommended Cube programmer tool

FWIW . . .

?- Tim

Show quoted text

On 08/23/2022 02:37 AM, Ho-Ro wrote:
On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 08:58 AM, Ho-Ro wrote:

To build the FW ... just type "make" and "make flash",
Default is -H, for -H4 the command is

TARGET=F303 make && make flash

-- 
Tim Dawson

972-567-9360

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

#29404

Using the substitution method in measuring emissions from equipment for
regulatory purposes, a dipole and a signal generator is used.  There many
reference dipoles out there to be had on the used market.  I have several.
They are also easy to make, but be sure to decouple the feedline with a
number of ferrites of appropriate mix.

Page 25 of the First Edition of J. D. Krauss *ANTENNAS* may also be
useful.  While it won't get you the closest 0.1 dB, it offers a simple
method without using a reference antenna.

[image: image.png]

I'll also attach the page in case this group does not support in-text
images.

Dave - W ?LEV




On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 8:59 PM Donald S Brant Jr <dsbrantjr@...>
wrote:

NBS (now NIST) published the dimensions of a reference dipole for such
uses: 2 1λ dipoles above a 1.6λ x 2λ ground plane.  Built properly it
should have gain accurate to a few tenths dB or less at the design
frequency.
The EIA published a similar standard gain antenna, shown in 5.2.5 of this
document:    The paper also
has good information on antenna gain testing.
73, Don N2VGU





-- 
*Dave - W?LEV*
*Just Let Darwin Work*


-- 
Dave - W?LEV

image.png

image20220823_21193184.jpg

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

#29403

NBS (now NIST) published the dimensions of a reference dipole for such uses: 2 1λ dipoles above a 1.6λ x 2λ ground plane.  Built properly it should have gain accurate to a few tenths dB or less at the design frequency.
The EIA published a similar standard gain antenna, shown in 5.2.5 of this document:    The paper also has good information on antenna gain testing.
73, Don N2VGU

Re: Bug or fubar'd upgrade? #firmware

Cliff

#29402

Roger,

Worked great. Now I have to figure out the extra menus, but that's to be expected. Thanks so much for the file. Maybe it could be uploaded to the file section of the group for others to use if they wish?

73,
Cliff, AE5ZA

Show quoted text

On Aug 23, 2022, at 13:26, Roger Need via groups.io <sailtamarack@...> wrote:

On Mon, Aug 22, 2022 at 03:04 PM, Cliff wrote:

Thank you for your suggestion Roger, but I don't think you understand what I
am looking for. I'm looking for the .bin version of the firmware 1.2 update
file. I'm on Mac and use the STM Cube Programmer to update my NanoVNA H4. The
NanoVNA-App appears to be a Windows program.
Cliff,

You can covert a dfu file to bin using the DFU File Manager that comes with DfuSe demo but unfortunately that only installs on Windows.  I did the conversion for you of DiSlords version 1.2 dfu file that I found at the link below.

I hope the attached bin file works for you.  Please post after you have tried it.  

Roger

<NanoVNA.H4.v1.2.00.bin>

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

#29401

Thank you for your reply.  Very interesting.

Fred - N4CLA

Show quoted text

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 3:23 PM W0LEV <davearea51a@...> wrote:

QUOTE:  " Just out of curiosity, why would you want a 450 ft doublet
resonant at 950 kHz?"

Just to install as much wire in the air as is reasonable.  I could string
well over a couple thousand feet, but .......  We live on 40-acres in
Northern Colorado in the foothills of the Rockies.  So, why not?  It is fed
with parallel conductor XMSN line, a robust (home brew and meticulously
characterized) common mode choke (actually several, depending on frequency)
and an over designed (again, pretty robust) L-Network matching network
(a.k.a., "antenna tuner").

An antenna or set of wires doesn't have to be resonant where one desires to
be a good radiator/receiver of RF energy.  I use these wires from
630-Meters (with additional inductance) through 6-Meters.  I also have an
NVIS 40-meter dipole and a 6-Meter inverted Vee on the hillside, but seldom
used.  Most of the antennas are for radio astronomy and/or ionospheric
profiling (mainly E-Layer).

Dave - W?LEV

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 6:15 PM Fred Moore <n40cla@...> wrote:

Good afternoon Dave.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want a 450 ft doublet resonant at950
kHz?

Fred - N4CLA

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 2:01 PM W0LEV <davearea51a@...> wrote:

A dipole, by definition, is resonant:  +jX = -jX = 0.

A doublet is a dipole, but not resonant where you require.

My 450-foot doublet exhibits its first 1/2-wavelength resonance atroughly
950 kHz, but does not show resonance in any of the HF ham bands.

Yes, measurements need to be made to reduce / minimize unwanted
reflections.  That's the devil in the details.

Dave - W?LEV

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 5:54 PM Roger Need via groups.io<sailtamarack=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 10:13 AM, W0LEV wrote:

A dipole works fine for the reference antenna.  Nominally 2.2_ dBgain
over
isotropic.
That is the gain of a dipole antenna in free space at resonance.Over
ground the gain is higher.  How much higher depends on height andground
characteristics.

Roger

--
*Dave - W?LEV*
*Just Let Darwin Work*

--
Dave - W?LEV

--
*Dave - W?LEV*
*Just Let Darwin Work*

--
Dave - W?LEV

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

#29400

No, Jim, absolutely no attempt to ever consider measuring the "gain" of my
450-foot doublet!!!  At best, I model it using 4NEC2 and even that with a
large crystal of salt.

Measuring the gain (directivity?) of an antenna applies to VHF and above!
HF?  Do the modeling.   But, then, the NEC code does a miserable job of
handling "ground" (earth).

Dave - W?LEV

Show quoted text

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 7:08 PM Jim Lux <jimlux@...> wrote:

On 8/23/22 11:00 AM, W0LEV wrote:
A dipole, by definition, is resonant:  +jX = -jX = 0.

A doublet is a dipole, but not resonant where you require.

My 450-foot doublet exhibits its first 1/2-wavelength resonance atroughly
950 kHz, but does not show resonance in any of the HF ham bands.

Yes, measurements need to be made to reduce / minimize unwanted
reflections.  That's the devil in the details.
You're not going to be measuring the gain of a 450 foot antenna with a
NanoVNA.

The OP was for a printed circuit antenna, presumably well above 100 MHz.

The fundamental problem will be the free space loss.  Let's assume
isotropes for the moment. Let's further assume that the probe/reference
antenna is 5 wavelengths away.

At 300 MHz, that's 5 meters.

Loss = 32 + 20*log10(0.005)  + 20 *log10(300) = 32-46+50 dB = 36 dB loss.

So that's plausibly ok - your S21 readings will still be big enough that
the uncertainty due to SNR won't be too bad.

And you can measure that in a backyard range.  You need to move the
probe up and down so that you can quantify the "ground bounce"
contribution.

By the way, the usual guideline for antenna test distance of
2*D^2/lambda isn't really valid for low gain antennas. But if you take D
as 1/2lambda, you wind up with 2*0.5^2 * lambda^2/lambda which is 1.4
lambda.

-- 
*Dave - W?LEV*
*Just Let Darwin Work*

-- 
Dave - W?LEV

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

#29399

QUOTE:  " Just out of curiosity, why would you want a 450 ft doublet
resonant at 950 kHz?"

Just to install as much wire in the air as is reasonable.  I could string
well over a couple thousand feet, but .......  We live on 40-acres in
Northern Colorado in the foothills of the Rockies.  So, why not?  It is fed
with parallel conductor XMSN line, a robust (home brew and meticulously
characterized) common mode choke (actually several, depending on frequency)
and an over designed (again, pretty robust) L-Network matching network
(a.k.a., "antenna tuner").

An antenna or set of wires doesn't have to be resonant where one desires to
be a good radiator/receiver of RF energy.  I use these wires from
630-Meters (with additional inductance) through 6-Meters.  I also have an
NVIS 40-meter dipole and a 6-Meter inverted Vee on the hillside, but seldom
used.  Most of the antennas are for radio astronomy and/or ionospheric
profiling (mainly E-Layer).

Dave - W?LEV

Show quoted text

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 6:15 PM Fred Moore <n40cla@...> wrote:

Good afternoon Dave.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want a 450 ft doublet resonant at 950
kHz?

Fred - N4CLA

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 2:01 PM W0LEV <davearea51a@...> wrote:

A dipole, by definition, is resonant:  +jX = -jX = 0.

A doublet is a dipole, but not resonant where you require.

My 450-foot doublet exhibits its first 1/2-wavelength resonance atroughly
950 kHz, but does not show resonance in any of the HF ham bands.

Yes, measurements need to be made to reduce / minimize unwanted
reflections.  That's the devil in the details.

Dave - W?LEV

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 5:54 PM Roger Need via groups.io <sailtamarack=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 10:13 AM, W0LEV wrote:

A dipole works fine for the reference antenna.  Nominally 2.2_ dBgain
over
isotropic.
That is the gain of a dipole antenna in free space at resonance.  Over
ground the gain is higher.  How much higher depends on height andground
characteristics.

Roger

--
*Dave - W?LEV*
*Just Let Darwin Work*

--
Dave - W?LEV

-- 
*Dave - W?LEV*
*Just Let Darwin Work*

-- 
Dave - W?LEV

Re: Antenna Gain measurement with NanoVNA

#29398

On 8/23/22 11:00 AM, W0LEV wrote:
A dipole, by definition, is resonant:  +jX = -jX = 0.
A doublet is a dipole, but not resonant where you require.
My 450-foot doublet exhibits its first 1/2-wavelength resonance at roughly
950 kHz, but does not show resonance in any of the HF ham bands.
Yes, measurements need to be made to reduce / minimize unwanted
reflections.  That's the devil in the details.
You're not going to be measuring the gain of a 450 foot antenna with a NanoVNA.


The OP was for a printed circuit antenna, presumably well above 100 MHz.


The fundamental problem will be the free space loss.  Let's assume isotropes for the moment. Let's further assume that the probe/reference antenna is 5 wavelengths away.

At 300 MHz, that's 5 meters.

Loss = 32 + 20*log10(0.005)  + 20 *log10(300) = 32-46+50 dB = 36 dB loss.

So that's plausibly ok - your S21 readings will still be big enough that the uncertainty due to SNR won't be too bad.

And you can measure that in a backyard range.  You need to move the probe up and down so that you can quantify the "ground bounce" contribution.

By the way, the usual guideline for antenna test distance of 2*D^2/lambda isn't really valid for low gain antennas. But if you take D as 1/2lambda, you wind up with 2*0.5^2 * lambda^2/lambda which is 1.4 lambda.

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