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On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 11:58 AM, alan victor wrote:

Your density is finer than it needs to be. Which is ok. However, might
consider the
one standard that is: 0 , 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, and infinity...

I appreciate the advice, Alan. Usually I only program features that I would use myself. I don't anticipate using the Smith chart and I have no experience with them so it's hard to know what detail is reasonable. I'll post a message when the program is available.

Thanks also to Dean for your input.

Brian

Your density is finer than it needs to be. Which is ok. However, might consider the
one standard that is: 0 , 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, and infinity...

Same on both reactive contours.

Hi Brian,
As an RF engineer, I depend on Smith charts for the intuitive understanding they enable. It is easy to look at at an impedance and instantly understand what would best match an impedance. It's easy to visualize what effects rotation through a transmission line would have, and pretty much how complicated a matching network will be, before ever designing it. It's invaluable, in my opinion. Just my 2 cents worth. Glad you found it easy to implement.

73,
Dean W8ZF

The marker will go to the nearest scan point. You have your H4 set for 101pts, you can set it to 401 for much finer resolution.

Question, why when I set a center frequency of 910.525 MHz on my Nano VNA-H4 (as I did here within this image) then I set a marker for 910.525MHz, they are offset from each other?

Well, it was easier to implement than I thought. And a lot more fun! I need to fine-tune the circles and then think about some sort of frequency annotation or readout.

Brian

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 06:28 AM, Maynard Wright, P. E., W6PAP wrote:

I don't known whether or not I would have seen that solution without resort to
the visual presentation of a Smith chart.

Very interesting, Maynard. I had pretty much decided to skip implementing a Smith chart until I read your response. I'm all for facilitating insight.

I never worked in RF professionally. The Smith chart is foreign to me. Perhaps many NanoVNAs users favor it because it is familiar from their professional work. Offering something familiar may be another good reason to implement it.

Incidentally, I wrote my program mainly to plot all four s-parameters, provide reference impedance renormalization to allow measurement and optimization of filters without building a matching network, and to implement the Y21 series-through method that cancels stray reactance. I want to avoid unnecessary embellishments, but it sounds like a Smith chart might be useful.

Brian

Bob,

I have gone through that some time ago.
It is quite useful, though not exhaustive.

73
Jon, VU2JO

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 7:12?PM Bob Ecclestone VK2ZRE via groups.io
<becclest@...> wrote:

Jon,
Log into the groups.io nanovna group and go to the Files section.
Look for the "Absolute Beginners Guide". I think V6.20 is the last update.
It does not cover all the bells and whistles of the latest firmware, but
it is a good basic intro to the NanoVNA and VNAs in general.
By the time you work through that, you will be well on your way.
There is also a reasonably up to date version of the Menu Tree document
in there too somewhere. It explains in detail what the various Menu
Items do.
Enjoy your fantastic new piece of test equipment.
HTH. Cheers...Bob VK2ZRE


On 27/04/2025 4:26 pm, Jon via groups.io wrote:

Thank you Dave.

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 5:07?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

No, it does not. However, there are several publications out that

instruct

one on using the NANOVNAs. Once you learn the basics, that should map

over

to any VNA, professional or NANO.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:06?PM Jon via groups.io <vu2jo0=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 3:45?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

Yes, if your SAVER is miles outside of your intended cal range, you

need

to

do a cal on the native device first. I've never had that problem, so

I

wouldn't know. I've used professional VNAs for decades on the job

(I'm

now

retired) and own an HP 8753C, so I really didn't have to even open the
instruction book. Please forgive me.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:17?PM Stan Dye via groups.io <standye=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state

From the nanovna-saver github readme (
):
Quote:
Calibration

Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is

in

a

reasonable calibration state.

A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved

to

save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely

uncalibrated,

its

readings may be outside the range accepted by the application.

-------------
And from the code itself, the following code fragment shows that
nanovna-saver uses the "scan" command, rather than the "scanraw"

command,

to get its data from nanovna. The "scan" command returns S11/S12

data

with nanovna internal calibration (if any) applied.

def setSweep(self, start, stop):
self.start = start
self.stop = stop
list(self.exec_command(f"scan {start} {stop}

{self.datapoints}"))

-------------

So nanovna-saver indeed does depend on the calibration state of the
nanovna; they are not independent.
Q.E.D.

If you want independent calibration, use nanovna-app instead. It is

a

quite different application with its own learning curve, but it has
specific settings to use the nanovna internal or nanovna-app

calibration.

I use both apps, they both have excellent features.

Stan KC7XE

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

Jon,
Log into the groups.io nanovna group and go to the Files section.
Look for the "Absolute Beginners Guide". I think V6.20 is the last update.
It does not cover all the bells and whistles of the latest firmware, but it is a good basic intro to the NanoVNA and VNAs in general.
By the time you work through that, you will be well on your way.
There is also a reasonably up to date version of the Menu Tree document in there too somewhere. It explains in detail what the various Menu Items do.
Enjoy your fantastic new piece of test equipment.
HTH. Cheers...Bob VK2ZRE

Jim,

You are exactly right about the graphical design of a matching network. Some years ago I worked up a network which involved solving a quadratic equation, easily done. So I had an analytic solution for that network.

I wanted a similar, but not identical network that also involved a quadratic. Well, sort of: the equation for that network involved a multiplicative term that made its solution difficult to visualize, at least for me.

But in plotting what I wanted each network to do on a Smith chart, I could see a reverse symmetry between the networks. Modifying the first solution using that information yielded an exact analytic solution for the second network.

I don't known whether or not I would have seen that solution without resort to the visual presentation of a Smith chart.

73,

Maynard
W6PAP

Thank you Don

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 5:11?AM Don Thomas via groups.io <satranger1=
[email protected]> wrote:

Jon,Look in the group files section. Lots of user information there.

Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:37 PM, W0LEV via groups.io<davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote: No, it does not. However, there are
several publications out that instruct
one on using the NANOVNAs. Once you learn the basics, that should map over
to any VNA, professional or NANO.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:06?PM Jon via groups.io <vu2jo0=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

--
Don K5ZRQ

Thank you Dave.

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 5:07?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

No, it does not. However, there are several publications out that instruct
one on using the NANOVNAs. Once you learn the basics, that should map over
to any VNA, professional or NANO.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:06?PM Jon via groups.io <vu2jo0=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 3:45?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

Yes, if your SAVER is miles outside of your intended cal range, you

need

to

do a cal on the native device first. I've never had that problem, so I
wouldn't know. I've used professional VNAs for decades on the job (I'm

now

retired) and own an HP 8753C, so I really didn't have to even open the
instruction book. Please forgive me.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:17?PM Stan Dye via groups.io <standye=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state

From the nanovna-saver github readme (
):
Quote:
Calibration

Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is

in

a

reasonable calibration state.

A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved

to

save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely

uncalibrated,

its

readings may be outside the range accepted by the application.

-------------
And from the code itself, the following code fragment shows that
nanovna-saver uses the "scan" command, rather than the "scanraw"

command,

to get its data from nanovna. The "scan" command returns S11/S12

data

with nanovna internal calibration (if any) applied.

def setSweep(self, start, stop):
self.start = start
self.stop = stop
list(self.exec_command(f"scan {start} {stop}

{self.datapoints}"))

-------------

So nanovna-saver indeed does depend on the calibration state of the
nanovna; they are not independent.
Q.E.D.

If you want independent calibration, use nanovna-app instead. It is

a

quite different application with its own learning curve, but it has
specific settings to use the nanovna internal or nanovna-app

calibration.

I use both apps, they both have excellent features.

Stan KC7XE

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

Convenience for graphical design of a matching network. There’s also sort of a qualitative thing that you recognize particular “shapes” on the chart as having particular significance.

And, if you’re tuning a filter by turning a screw, sometimes seeing the Smith chart in real time is more “intuitive” in some sense. I tune filters looking at magnitude S11 and S22 and S21. For a three section filter, you can see the three resonances, and looking from one end or the other tends to emphasize the section closest to the port you’re looking at.

These days, with computers, seeing the Smith chart isn’t as useful.
I use plots of magnitude and phase for design. And I work with a lot of more than one port systems, for which the Smith chart is less useful. For instance, if you’re looking at the coupling among antennas in a phased array.

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 04:32 PM, W0LEV wrote:

The VECTOR reflection coefficient gives you far
more information than just frequency response!!

If you can plot the real and imaginary parts of an S-parameter as well as magnitude, phase, and SWR, what additional information does a Smith chart provide? Is the advantage that you get SWR and impedance in one curve as Stan suggests?

Brian

Jon,Look in the group files section. Lots of user information there.?

Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:37 PM, W0LEV via groups.io<davearea51a@...> wrote: No, it does not.? However, there are several publications out that instruct
one on using the NANOVNAs.? Once you learn the basics, that should map over
to any VNA, professional or NANO.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:06?PM Jon via groups.io <vu2jo0=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

--
Don ? K5ZRQ

No, it does not. However, there are several publications out that instruct
one on using the NANOVNAs. Once you learn the basics, that should map over
to any VNA, professional or NANO.

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:06?PM Jon via groups.io <vu2jo0=
[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 3:45?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

Yes, if your SAVER is miles outside of your intended cal range, you need

to

do a cal on the native device first. I've never had that problem, so I
wouldn't know. I've used professional VNAs for decades on the job (I'm

now

retired) and own an HP 8753C, so I really didn't have to even open the
instruction book. Please forgive me.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:17?PM Stan Dye via groups.io <standye=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state

From the nanovna-saver github readme (
):
Quote:
Calibration

Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is in

a

reasonable calibration state.

A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved to
save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely uncalibrated,

its

readings may be outside the range accepted by the application.

-------------
And from the code itself, the following code fragment shows that
nanovna-saver uses the "scan" command, rather than the "scanraw"

command,

to get its data from nanovna. The "scan" command returns S11/S12 data
with nanovna internal calibration (if any) applied.

def setSweep(self, start, stop):
self.start = start
self.stop = stop
list(self.exec_command(f"scan {start} {stop}

{self.datapoints}"))

-------------

So nanovna-saver indeed does depend on the calibration state of the
nanovna; they are not independent.
Q.E.D.

If you want independent calibration, use nanovna-app instead. It is a
quite different application with its own learning curve, but it has
specific settings to use the nanovna internal or nanovna-app

calibration.

I use both apps, they both have excellent features.

Stan KC7XE

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

After working with Smith charts for awhile, and understanding them - they provide in one 'glance' a visualization of the complex impedance across frequency, at the same time as a visualization of the SWR across frequency. And at the same time, for a length of transmission line, you can see the wavelengths/half-wavelengths directly. I don't know of another single plot that can do that (I guess you can overlay multiple traces on the same XY plot to acheive it, but it is IMO not as convenient).
Stan KC7XE

Yes, and if you let the PC do all the optimization work, what have you
learned? Not much other than how to use the PC for the applications.
Rectangular plots vs. frequency, Bode plots, give you absolutely no
information of the complex portions of impedances. Yea, poles and zeros.
They're like an SWR meter. The VECTOR reflection coefficient gives you far
more information than just frequency response!! Bode plots address
frequency response, and, yes, some additional information. But they are
certainly not as powerful as the Smith Charts when it comes to dealing with
complex sources and loads. By complex, I mean the reactive components of a
circuit, not a "complex" circuit.

Sorry, I live on the Smith Chart and have no intention of letting the PC do
all the work. What have I missed? Everything.....

EXAMPLE: The EE students at CSU up in Fort Collins, Colorado, "learn"
electronics sitting in front of PCs doing simulations. I've worked with a
few of them before retiring. They are useless in both designing and
troubleshooting. If it were up to me, they would not have been hired!
They can't even put Ohm's Law on the white board, let alone use it!!!!
Sure, they learn how to use the modeling applications. But those change.
After a decade or so, they're useless at even running the newer
applications. Then they need to find a new career.

I'll stick with my Smith Charts, thank you.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 11:18?PM Brian Beezley via groups.io <k6sti=
[email protected]> wrote:

I never intended to add a Smith chart to my S-parameter plotter. I can
appreciate how useful they must have been before computers, but I don't see
their value today. A computer program, especially one with automatic
optimization, can make quick work of a complex matching problem. However,
since I see references to Smith charts here all the time, before I dismiss
them I thought I should ask why people use them. What do they offer that
rectangular plots versus frequency don't?



Brian

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV

I never intended to add a Smith chart to my S-parameter plotter. I can appreciate how useful they must have been before computers, but I don't see their value today. A computer program, especially one with automatic optimization, can make quick work of a complex matching problem. However, since I see references to Smith charts here all the time, before I dismiss them I thought I should ask why people use them. What do they offer that rectangular plots versus frequency don't?



Brian

Dave,

Does the NanoVNA come with an instruction manual?

I received only a menu chart, and no other booklet.

73

Jon, VU2JO

On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 3:45?AM W0LEV via groups.io <davearea51a=
[email protected]> wrote:

Yes, if your SAVER is miles outside of your intended cal range, you need to
do a cal on the native device first. I've never had that problem, so I
wouldn't know. I've used professional VNAs for decades on the job (I'm now
retired) and own an HP 8753C, so I really didn't have to even open the
instruction book. Please forgive me.......

Dave - W?LEV

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:17?PM Stan Dye via groups.io <standye=
[email protected]> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Dean W8ZF wrote:

because MAYBE it depends on the H4's cal state

From the nanovna-saver github readme (
):
Quote:
Calibration

Before using NanoVNA-Saver, please ensure that the device itself is in a
reasonable calibration state.

A calibration of both ports across the entire frequency span, saved to
save slot 0, is sufficient. If the NanoVNA is completely uncalibrated,

its

readings may be outside the range accepted by the application.

-------------
And from the code itself, the following code fragment shows that
nanovna-saver uses the "scan" command, rather than the "scanraw" command,
to get its data from nanovna. The "scan" command returns S11/S12 data
with nanovna internal calibration (if any) applied.

def setSweep(self, start, stop):
self.start = start
self.stop = stop
list(self.exec_command(f"scan {start} {stop} {self.datapoints}"))
-------------

So nanovna-saver indeed does depend on the calibration state of the
nanovna; they are not independent.
Q.E.D.

If you want independent calibration, use nanovna-app instead. It is a
quite different application with its own learning curve, but it has
specific settings to use the nanovna internal or nanovna-app calibration.
I use both apps, they both have excellent features.

Stan KC7XE

--

*Dave - W?LEV*


--
Dave - W?LEV