Re: Traces refresh rate slows down with fw 1.0.69
#nanovna-h4
Why
It is very simple. It often happens that the update of an on -board ? software goes wrong and that we can no longer go back. It is traumatic.
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Re: nanovna-saver/displayed charts/S11 R/¦Ø & X/¦Ø (?? / Hz)
Does this help?
Victor Hello Nothing is simple for me. In addition, with age (73), I still understand so quickly but you just have to explain myself longer :). I have to use translate.google.com to write you and chrome to read you. In the message there are writing conventions that I do not understand. In addition we have special character encoding problems We use ¦Ø for the pulsation and ¦Ø = 2.¦Ð.f ¦¸ for ohms When it happens at home, I read Now Z = C* ¦¸* ( mu'+j*mu") I understand Z = C¦Ø (mu'+jmu") You said The C is depending on the physical layout of the toroid (and constant for that toroid). Ok but what is m ? why 'm' is not in C as Z = K¦Ø (u'+ju") ?? You have write : Z is measured by the nanoVNA. By dividing the Z by , you get a value that is:
Z' (=Z/ ¦¸ ) = C* ( mu'+j*mu") I supose Z' = Z/ ¦Ø = C ( mu'+jmu") Z is calculated by the nanoVNA thrue S11 i suppose What do you do with Z' Do you plot Z' as a function of ¦Ø ? I put some files in a zipfile that you can download here. Could, concretely, set up what material it is Good night. Hear it is 20 o'clock -- Fran?ois -----Message d'origine----- De la part de Victor Reijs Envoy¨¦ : mardi 5 juillet 2022 13:04
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Re: Traces refresh rate slows down with fw 1.0.69
#nanovna-h4
I'm in the 'upgrade 1st' column. You are probably going to want to learn the upgrade procedure anyway and that's not tied to operating proficiency. In addition to bug fixes, newer FW will better track written documentation like menu trees.
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Re: Traces refresh rate slows down with fw 1.0.69
#nanovna-h4
A lot of folks, myself included, like to keep firmware current, as there are many improvements and bug fixes in the new releases. There is little that is more frustrating than trying to learn a new instrument while also dealing with bugs.
The first thing I do when I get a commercial instrument into the lab is to check that the firmware is up to date, or make it so.
When you call for tech support, the first question is usually, "what firmware revision are you running?"
73, Don N2VGU
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Re: nanovna-saver/displayed charts/S11 R/¦Ø & X/¦Ø (?? / Hz)
Hello Francois,
The complex permeability of a toroid is mu=mu'+j*mu"
mu' is the real permeability (will determine the reactance of a coil) and
mu" is the imaginary permeability (will determine the resistance of the
coil).
Now Z = C* ¦¸* ( mu'+j*mu")
The C is depending on the physical layout of the toroid (and constant for
that toroid).
¦¸ is your 2*pi*f
Z is measured by the nanoVNA. By dividing the Z by , you get a value that
is:
Z' (=Z/ ¦¸ ) = C* ( mu'+j*mu")
And thus you can measure with the NanoVNA something close to the complex
permeability of a toroid.
Does this help?
All the best,
Victor
Op ma 4 jul. 2022 om 20:47 schreef F1AMM <18471@...>:
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Thank you Dave - W?lev
Everything you explain, I understood and I even established all the
equations that pere down to find from S22 each value displayed in the data
of the markers.
What I don't understand is the graph that is identified by
S11 R/¦¸ & X/¦¸
The image of the graph is on
--
Fran?ois
-----Message d'origine-----
De : [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] De la part de W0LEV
Envoy¨¦ : lundi 4 juillet 2022 19:17
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Re: Traces refresh rate slows down with fw 1.0.69
#nanovna-h4
Gerd and others,
Use the nano with the firmware that comes with it. It does most of the things a ham needs out of the box. THEN when you are very familiar with it you can update the firmware. Why is everyone so willing to mess the the basics before learning how to use a new instrument? Not the best use of a new piece of test gear, at least in my opinion.
Dave K8WPE
David J. Wilcox¡¯s iPad
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On Jul 4, 2022, at 2:33 PM, Gooser5000 <g.soffner@...> wrote:
?Hi there,
I'm new to NanoVNA and I hope, I do not ask stupid questions, please excuse me, if this is the case.
I got my NanoVNA H4 last week and played around with it since that time. Today I performed a firmware update using DisLord's version 1.0.69. Everything seemed to work after the update but I noticed very quickly, that after some time (5-10 min) all four traces start freezing or at least the refresh rate drops down to nearly 1 refresh per 1.5 minute.
In that situation, when I switch to the Bandwith menu and go for 333 Hz, the blue line on the top of the screen moves extremely slow from the left to the right. One cycle is approx. the above mentioned 1.5 minutes.
The issue is only with the trace refresh rate, navigating through the menus is smooth and responsive.
The only way to get the NanoVNA back to work, is to perform a "clear config / reset" from the config menu. But in that case, I loose all my calibration and config data.
I didn't see this behaviour with the original fw and my thoughts were, that something could be wrong with the 1.0.69 version. I downgraded to the previous Dislord's fw 1.0.64 but also with that version I experience the same issue.
The occurrence of the issue is random. Sometimes it occurs immediately after I switch the device on and sometimes it happens after 10 minutes of work with it. One time, I also faced the issue during a calibration session. It occurred in that moment, the device was capturing the "Thru" (Ch1 - Ch2) data. On the top of the calibration screen, you could see that the blue line moved extremely slow.
I already searched the Wiki and some older threads for some advices but I couldn't find something adequate.
Is there anyone, who experienced the same issue? Because I coulnd't find something in all the threads around that firmware, I have the feeling, that the issue is up to my device :-(.
I am grateful for any help and tips.
Thanks a lot,
Gerd
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Re: nanovna-saver/displayed charts/S11 R/¦Ø & X/¦Ø (?? / Hz)
Question 1 ---------- How it works is that it gives two curves that are in units of resistance/Hz. and
reactance/Hz. The shape of these curves and the frequency they cross over can be
compared with the published complex permeability (u' and u'') curves supplies by ferrite
manufacturers. When you get something similar you know the ferrite mix (75, 43, 31 etc) of
the unknown ferrite core. Thank you for your patience. It is now much clearer. Can you tell me the diagram of the device to implement to make this measurement that interests me. Question 2 ---------- Ok. I didn't think there could be such parasitic phenomena. I redid the measurements with only a capacitor (without a series resistor). Below is the comparison between mica insulated capacitor and tubular ceramic capacitor. it's reassuring about the nanaoVNA Topic closed - thank you 73 -- F1AMM Fran?ois -----Message d'origine-----
De : [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] De la part de Roger Need via
Envoy¨¦ : lundi 4 juillet 2022 23:04
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Re: nanovna-saver/displayed charts/S11 R/¦Ø & X/¦Ø (?? / Hz)
On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 09:38 PM, F1AMM wrote:
My question of F4HTQ having remained unanswered, I appeal to you again.
Question 1
----------
I do not understand one of the graphs of Nanovna-Saver: S11 R/¦Ø & X/¦Ø
I don't understand what it wants to represent, nor the units. In addition
there are two curves. It does not seem to me that the values ??are
returned to the data of the markers. Basically I don't understand anything.
I thought I answered your question in my earlier post. The author added that graph to NanoVNA Saver at the specific request of a user F4HTQ. It is ONLY useful if you are trying to determine the properties of an unknown ferrite core and if you are not doing that you can just ignore it. It is explained in this post... /g/nanovna-users/message/6996How it works is that it gives two curves that are in units of resistance/Hz. and reactance/Hz. The shape of these curves and the frequency they cross over can be compared with the published complex permeability (u' and u'') curves supplies by ferrite manufacturers. When you get something similar you know the ferrite mix (75, 43, 31 etc) of the unknown ferrite core. Question 2
----------
I had the bad idea to check the overall operation by putting under test,
between 1 MHz and 10 MHz, a simplistic circuit made up of a 720 PF capacitor
with a resistance of 51 ¦¸.
If the value of the series resistance is almost constant, this is not the case
with the value of the series capacitor. I changed the type of capacitor (mica
/ ceramic) I get exactly the same values. I even observe a resonance at 20.7
MHz, frequency where the serial impedance is worth 50.2+J1.74.
Why does the bridge produce this aberrant result.
The VNA is reporting the complex impedance (R+/-jX) at the measurement terminals (called "reference plane" ) . Your 51 ohm resistor will have some inductance due to the leads and the resistance will increase with frequency. The degree of change will be determined by the several factors like lead length/diameter and the size and type of resistor Any real world capacitor will consist of resistance, inductance and capacitance. The resistance, due to ESR and the leads, will vary with frequency. The leads will become more resistive with frequency due to the skin effect. The ESR will depend on the frequency and the dielectric. The reactance X due to capacitance will get smaller with frequency and the inductive reactance due to capacitor geometry and lead length will increase with frequency. When the two cancel out you will have a resonant condition. When the NanoVNA calculates capacitance or inductance it is really making simplified calculations. L= X/(2*pi*Freq) and C=1/(2*pi*X*Freq). . These do not take into account that the reactance measured is due to inductance and capacitance associated with the real world component. The measured values expressed by these simple calculations are sometimes referred to as "apparent capacitance" or inductance as oposed to the underlying "actual" inductance or capacitance. . I have attached some annotated plots that show the effects. One is a 10 pF capacitor that was measured with long leads and then the leads shortened and measured again. The second is a 47 pF showing the self resonant frequency. The third is an inductor marked as 330 uH but this value is what was specified at a low frequency. Roger
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Amidon buys many of their ferrite offerings from Fair-Rite.
Dave - W?LEV
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On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 6:34 PM <tomas.geci@...> wrote: Dear Dave,
many thanks for perfect explanation ?now it makes perfect sense for me,
you explained it very well.
I will watch videos you have included. I was more oriented to Amidon
materials but FairRite looks more informative and up-to-date, fortunately
principles are common.
VY 73
Tomas, OM5AST
-- *Dave - W?LEV* *Just Let Darwin Work*
--
Dave - W?LEV
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Re: Traces refresh rate slows down with fw 1.0.69
#nanovna-h4
|
Re: nanovna-saver/displayed charts/S11 R/¦Ø & X/¦Ø (?? / Hz)
"What I don't understand is the graph that is identified by
S11 R/¦¸ & X/¦¸"
This is a plot of the pure resistance and the reactance, both expressed in
Ohms. Of course, pure resistance is expressed in pure Ohms. But, so is
the reactance expressed in Ohms. That is the reactance, in Ohms, of the
inductive or capacitive portion of the total impedance. I gave you the
formulae to calculate each at a given frequency. That is what the X/¦¸ is
all about. The "¦¸" symbol is the standard Greek letters used to abbreviate
Ohms.
Dave - W?LEV
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On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 6:47 PM F1AMM <18471@...> wrote: Thank you Dave - W?lev
Everything you explain, I understood and I even established all the
equations that pere down to find from S22 each value displayed in the data
of the markers.
What I don't understand is the graph that is identified by
S11 R/¦¸ & X/¦¸
The image of the graph is on
--
Fran?ois
-----Message d'origine-----
De : [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] De la part de W0LEV
Envoy¨¦ : lundi 4 juillet 2022 19:17
-- *Dave - W?LEV* *Just Let Darwin Work*
--
Dave - W?LEV
|
Re: Traces refresh rate slows down with fw 1.0.69
#nanovna-h4
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On July 4, 2022 2:42:49 PM CDT, Gooser5000 <g.soffner@...> wrote: Hi TIm,
thank's a lot for your response. No, I didn't try the 1.2.00 build. The 1.0.69 was the most recent firmware, I found in the files section of this group. Could you please provide a link, where I can find the 1.2.00?
Thank you very much for your help!
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
|
Re: Traces refresh rate slows down with fw 1.0.69
#nanovna-h4
Hi TIm,
thank's a lot for your response. No, I didn't try the 1.2.00 build. The 1.0.69 was the most recent firmware, I found in the files section of this group. Could you please provide a link, where I can find the 1.2.00?
Thank you very much for your help!
|
Re: Traces refresh rate slows down with fw 1.0.69
#nanovna-h4
I have to wonder why you have loaded such an old version . . . 1.2.00 is the current build. Have you tried that yet?
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On July 4, 2022 1:32:54 PM CDT, Gooser5000 <g.soffner@...> wrote: Hi there,
I'm new to NanoVNA and I hope, I do not ask stupid questions, please excuse me, if this is the case.
I got my NanoVNA H4 last week and played around with it since that time. Today I performed a firmware update using DisLord's version 1.0.69. Everything seemed to work after the update but I noticed very quickly, that after some time (5-10 min) all four traces start freezing or at least the refresh rate drops down to nearly 1 refresh per 1.5 minute.
In that situation, when I switch to the Bandwith menu and go for 333 Hz, the blue line on the top of the screen moves extremely slow from the left to the right. One cycle is approx. the above mentioned 1.5 minutes.
The issue is only with the trace refresh rate, navigating through the menus is smooth and responsive.
The only way to get the NanoVNA back to work, is to perform a "clear config / reset" from the config menu. But in that case, I loose all my calibration and config data.
I didn't see this behaviour with the original fw and my thoughts were, that something could be wrong with the 1.0.69 version. I downgraded to the previous Dislord's fw 1.0.64 but also with that version I experience the same issue.
The occurrence of the issue is random. Sometimes it occurs immediately after I switch the device on and sometimes it happens after 10 minutes of work with it. One time, I also faced the issue during a calibration session. It occurred in that moment, the device was capturing the "Thru" (Ch1 - Ch2) data. On the top of the calibration screen, you could see that the blue line moved extremely slow.
I already searched the Wiki and some older threads for some advices but I couldn't find something adequate.
Is there anyone, who experienced the same issue? Because I coulnd't find something in all the threads around that firmware, I have the feeling, that the issue is up to my device :-(.
I am grateful for any help and tips.
Thanks a lot,
Gerd
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
|
Re: nanovna-saver/displayed charts/S11 R/¦Ø & X/¦Ø (?? / Hz)
Thank you Dave - W?lev
Everything you explain, I understood and I even established all the equations that pere down to find from S22 each value displayed in the data of the markers.
What I don't understand is the graph that is identified by
S11 R/¦¸ & X/¦¸
The image of the graph is on
--
Fran?ois
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
|
Dear Dave,
many thanks for perfect explanation ?now it makes perfect sense for me, you explained it very well.
I will watch videos you have included. I was more oriented to Amidon materials but FairRite looks more informative and up-to-date, fortunately principles are common.
VY 73
Tomas, OM5AST
|
Traces refresh rate slows down with fw 1.0.69
#nanovna-h4
Hi there,
I'm new to NanoVNA and I hope, I do not ask stupid questions, please excuse me, if this is the case.
I got my NanoVNA H4 last week and played around with it since that time. Today I performed a firmware update using DisLord's version 1.0.69. Everything seemed to work after the update but I noticed very quickly, that after some time (5-10 min) all four traces start freezing or at least the refresh rate drops down to nearly 1 refresh per 1.5 minute.
In that situation, when I switch to the Bandwith menu and go for 333 Hz, the blue line on the top of the screen moves extremely slow from the left to the right. One cycle is approx. the above mentioned 1.5 minutes.
The issue is only with the trace refresh rate, navigating through the menus is smooth and responsive.
The only way to get the NanoVNA back to work, is to perform a "clear config / reset" from the config menu. But in that case, I loose all my calibration and config data.
I didn't see this behaviour with the original fw and my thoughts were, that something could be wrong with the 1.0.69 version. I downgraded to the previous Dislord's fw 1.0.64 but also with that version I experience the same issue.
The occurrence of the issue is random. Sometimes it occurs immediately after I switch the device on and sometimes it happens after 10 minutes of work with it. One time, I also faced the issue during a calibration session. It occurred in that moment, the device was capturing the "Thru" (Ch1 - Ch2) data. On the top of the calibration screen, you could see that the blue line moved extremely slow.
I already searched the Wiki and some older threads for some advices but I couldn't find something adequate.
Is there anyone, who experienced the same issue? Because I coulnd't find something in all the threads around that firmware, I have the feeling, that the issue is up to my device :-(.
I am grateful for any help and tips.
Thanks a lot,
Gerd
|
Dear OM, I'm interested about various measurements with NanoVNA but now
I'm fighting with some fundamental questions not related only to nano VNA.
but still unable to find answers, even after reading a lot of articles (for
example k9yc, palomar engineers, and not only...)
In determining the material characteristics of a toroidal core, usually a
very low frequency is used. Yes, the initial ? is frequency dependent, but
determination of that is by convention made at a low frequency, usually
between 10 kHz and 100 kHz.
- when I will try to determine ferrite core material by inductance and AL
value, how can I be sure about right frequency for inductance? inductance
could vary with frequency (various permeability) and then my AL value
calculation could be wrong.
I've used the routine outlined in one of the video presentations on the
Fair-Rite site (the first addresses the NANOVNA specifically)
:
- I read somewhere that chokes need higher AL value then transformers. Why
chokes requires higher AL value and transformers lower? It is because in
chokes big AL value means high inductance with small amount of winding and
wire and then high impedance for common mode currents with good efficiency?
Chokes as applied to decoupling common mode (CM) currents present on
transmission lines:
The purpose of the choke is:
1) To present a high-impedance to CM currents
2) To pass differential mode (DM) currents with minimal loss
As such, the choke forms a reflective filter due to the larger inductance.
This require a toroid material with large AL value or high initial ?r.
However, using this type of material for transformers, the AL becomes too
large for a very few windings. Therefore a lower AL and ?r is required for
low-loss transformers.
Many thanks for answers, hope I will find an answer even when it is not
simple topic ?
Poke around on the video tutorials on the Fair-Rite site. There is a lot
of good information there. It's all under "Technical Resources" toward the
bottom of that folder.
sources which I used:
Dave - W?LEV
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Show quoted text
On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:56 PM <tomas.geci@...> wrote: Dear OM, I'm interested about various measurements with NanoVNA but now
I'm fighting with some fundamental questions not related only to nano VNA.
but still unable to find answers, even after reading a lot of articles (for
example k9yc, palomar engineers, and not only...)
- when I will try to determine ferrite core material by inductance and AL
value, how can I be sure about right frequency for inductance? inductance
could vary with frequency (various permeability) and then my AL value
calculation could be wrong.
- I read somewhere that chokes need higher AL value then transformers.
Why chokes requires higher AL value and transformers lower? It is because
in chokes big AL value means high inductance with small amount of winding
and wire and then high impedance for common mode currents with good
efficiency?
Many thanks for answers, hope I will find an answer even when it is not
simple topic ?
sources which I used:
-- *Dave - W?LEV* *Just Let Darwin Work*
--
Dave - W?LEV
|
Re: nanovna-saver/displayed charts/S11 R/¦Ø & X/¦Ø (?? / Hz)
To understand what the plots represent, you must understand what the
representation of impedance implies. The variables involved are:
1) Pure Resistance represented by "R"
2) Reactance represented by ¡ÀjX where X is the value of the reactance
3) The combination represented (usually) by Zo
Hopefully we are familiar with pure resistance and Ohm's Law. Resistance
is:
1) Frequency INdependent
2) Can and does dissipate power
3) Can NOT influence the phase of a network
Generally, the amateur is less familiar with reactance/. Reactance is:
1) Frequency DEpendent
2) Does NOT dissipate power
3) Does influence the phase of a network
Further for reactance:
1) Capacitive reactance is represented by -jX
2) Inductive reactance is represented by +jX
The values of "X", being frequency DEpendent can be caluclated from:
1) Capacitive reactance: X = 1 / [2 x pi x F x C]
2) Inductive reactance: X = [2 x pi x F x L]
where:
pi = 3.14159625...
F = Frequency in Hertz (Hz) (MHz = 1E6 Hz)
C = Capacitance in Farads (F) (?F = 1E-6F.......PicoF =
1E-12F)
L = Inductance in Henries (H) (?H = 1E-6H)
Finally, the typical expression for the COMPLEX IMPEDANCE:
Zo = R ¡ÀjX
This is what is represented in the readout of impedance of S11 and what the
Smith Chart can be all about.
Just in case the email scrambles the formatting, I'll also attach this
write-up in MS Word format.
Dave - W?LEV
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Show quoted text
On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:39 AM F1AMM <18471@...> wrote: My question of F4HTQ having remained unanswered, I appeal to you again.
Question 1
----------
I do not understand one of the graphs of Nanovna-Saver: S11 R/¦Ø & X/¦Ø
I don't understand what it wants to represent, nor the units. In addition
there are two curves. It does not seem to me that the values ??are returned
to the data of the markers. Basically I don't understand anything.
Question 2
----------
I had the bad idea to check the overall operation by putting under test,
between 1 MHz and 10 MHz, a simplistic circuit made up of a 720 PF
capacitor with a resistance of 51 ¦¸.
If the value of the series resistance is almost constant, this is not the
case with the value of the series capacitor. I changed the type of
capacitor (mica / ceramic) I get exactly the same values. I even observe a
resonance at 20.7 MHz, frequency where the serial impedance is worth
50.2+J1.74.
Why does the bridge produce this aberrant result.
73 And thank you for your help
--
F1AMM (Fran?ois)
-- *Dave - W?LEV* *Just Let Darwin Work*
--
Dave - W?LEV
|
Dear OM, I'm interested about various measurements with NanoVNA but now I'm fighting with some fundamental questions not related only to nano VNA. but still unable to find answers, even after reading a lot of articles (for example k9yc, palomar engineers, and not only...)
- when I will try to determine ferrite core material by inductance and AL value, how can I be sure about right frequency for inductance? inductance could vary with frequency (various permeability) and then my AL value calculation could be wrong.
- I read somewhere that chokes need higher AL value then transformers. Why chokes requires higher AL value and transformers lower? It is because in chokes big AL value means high inductance with small amount of winding and wire and then high impedance for common mode currents with good efficiency?
Many thanks for answers, hope I will find an answer even when it is not simple topic ?
sources which I used:
|
Donald S Brant Jr
David Wilcox K8WPE
Roger Need
Gooser5000