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Re: measuring Capacitance or Inductance

 

Just one more graph, as an addition: A 100nF 100V, 1206-size SMD multilayer ceramic cap. Above 20MHz the performance of the 100nF ceramic and the 15?F tantalum are very much the same, while below 20MHz the ceramic one gets progressively bad, while the tantalum one stays pretty good the low end of the frequency range measured.

Ergo: A tantalum electrolytic chip cap is a better, wider bandwidth bypass than a ceramic chip cap. From 20 to 300MHz there is no significant difference between them in bypassing performance, although I would expect the ceramic cap to handle more current over a longer time.


Re: PROCEDURES for MEASURING DM LOSS and CM ATTENUATION of CMCs

 

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 11:05 AM, David Eckhardt wrote:

* I have actually tried one vs. both wires in parallel with the VNA in
measuring CM attenuation.. There is a very minor difference. The largest
practical effect is to reduce resistance (not so much the ¡ÀjX portion). *

* Considering each wire of the bifilar pair contributes equal
inductance by itself, so the total connected in parallel will be half that
of each wire alone. This ignores mutual coupling. A 3 dB difference in
30 dB of total *
* attenuation, to me, is of little concern. The total
inductance of two inductors in parallel can be calculated from L(total) =
[L(1) X L(2)] / [L(1) + L(2)], just like resistors in parallel.*

Second question, what is the procedure for coax chokes? I *think* what I
have seen and understand is that you connect the *braid* only on CH0 and
CH1 (Port 1 and Port 2). This is the path that the CM would take. Is this
correct for coax chokes?


*You are correct. Connect the braid from one end to CH0 and the other end
to CH1. *

I have the NanoVNA and love it. Building and measuring CMCs is my next
adventure. Thanks to you and the group for a wonderful resource.

*Anything to encourage learning the NANOs and building your own
"whatevers". Experience is the best teacher!*

*Dave - W?LEV*
Dave, thank you again for the thoughtful reply.

And, thanks to the group for the additional insight.

Adam - N0KTB


Re: measuring Capacitance or Inductance

 

Dave,

it's a lot of fun to reply to you! You challenge me, and move me to measuring more things! So now I have to dissect your answer;

Never........NEVER.......rely on an electrolytic as a bypass for RF
energy!!!!!!
WHY? I accept such generalized statements only when they are delivered with generally valid fundamentation. The only reason I can see is that the ESR of an electrolytic capacitor is typically higher than that of a ceramic one. Thus, when bypassing is required only over a frequency range where a sufficiently small ceramic capacitor also provides low reactance, the ceramic is fine. But when good bypassing is needed, say, from 30kHz to 300MHz, what value of ceramic capacitor would you use? In such a case an electrolytic capacitor is required. Common wisdom says that it would be wise to parallel it with a small ceramic cap, but if you look at my measurement below, it turns out that an electrolytic alone can be plenty good enough - specially if it's an SMD.

Use series resonance to your advantage.
This is common practice in the microwave range, where the inductance of any part of practical size is too high for effective bypassing without resonance. But it's always narrow banded.

It's a well known fact among (most) design
engineers that tantalum capacitors are not much good above 500 kHz to a
couple of MHz. Most electrolytics are even worse. Go measure them on
your NANOs.
I did. The graphs are below. A plain run-of-the-mill SMD tantalum cap, 15?F, turns out having an impedance below 0.2? from 50kHz to 300MHz. What's bad about that? If indeed engineers know what you say, then they know wrong. They probably never measured it, and only ever believed in hearsay. Or took data measured long ago, on long-obsolete, giant size capacitors, that simply isn't applicable to modern, small size parts. Look at my RXZ curves below for that tantalum SMD cap.

I just grabbed a 1000 ?F / 25 VDC cap from the parts bin and measured it on
a calibrated HP 8753C using the Smith Chart. Even at 1 MHz it measures 78
m¦¸ with a series reactance 78 nH. Sure, the DC portion is fine, but what
is 78 nH at 50 MHz?
78nH suggests that it's a large, long, axial-lead capacitor. Of course you should NOT use that for RF bypassing! I just measured a modern radial-lead 1000?F 25V electrolytic, and got 6.8nH, more than 10 times better than yours! At that level, it's not much worse at 50MHz than any typical leaded ceramic cap. You just can't beat physics, and lead length costs inductance. Only SMDs get much better.

Take a capacitor better suited as a bypass at HF, a 450 pF dip mica.
WHAT?????? HF is 3 to 30MHz. 450pF has a reactance of 118? at 3MHz! Good luck with using that as a bypass!

Same setup at 10 MHz: 0.1 ohms at 462 pF.
That's its resistance, but its reactance at 10MHz is several tens of ohm, and thus it's pretty useless as a bypass. Except in high impedance circuitry.

I think that you need to get the basics straight...

Here are some measurements on candidate bypass capacitors, from 50kHz to 300MHz. First a typical small ceramic 100nF bypass cap, then a typical cheap 47?F 25V aluminium electrolytic, then a tantalum cap of the same rating, and then a 15?F 20V SMD tantalum cap. I kept the same scaling for all four graphs, for easy comparison. Judge yourself what's best, and do away with long-standing, unfounded prejudice!

Of course these graphs only show resistance, reactance, and impedance, not their ability to handle high currents, run in hot environments, and so on. In high power circuits the need to handle high current or heat might dictate the use of a capacitor that doesn't have the lowest impedance.

Very clearly these measurements run straight against the myth that electrolytic capacitors are useless at RF.


Re: Using a nanoVNA to test a transmitter #newbie #general_vna

 

On 2/15/21 6:58 AM, Jim Lux wrote:
On 2/14/21 10:19 PM, David McQuate wrote:
Yes.? 5W is +37 dBm.? This attenuator can handle 5W continuously, and its 41 dB attenuation will reduce the transmitter signal to -4 dBm.? The TinySA max input power is +10 dBm with its internal attenuator set to 0 dB, so you are ok.? Using more attenuation in the TinySA might be prudent. Note the qrpkit attenuator upper frequency limit? is 200 MHz. Its attenuation will probably be reduced at higher frequencies.
Dave

Cierra <dubosec@...> wrote:


they have some other attenuators that might be more suitable (and cheaper) - you might look at the single T attenuator or at the dummy load. (I worry about a switched attenuator - if you accidentally forget to switch it, poof goes your SA)

That dummy load, which has a diode detector, looks interesting. What I would do is take a 50k noninductive resistor in series with the SA input and hook it to the 50 ohm line on the input of the load (making a 1000:1 voltage divider with the input Z of the SA).? That will give you about 60 dB of attenuation, putting your 5W at -23 dBm

And now that I read this.. just get the dummy load. Put your Tiny SA with its whip antenna near the load - it won't have flat frequency response, but you'll see your signal


Re: Using a nanoVNA to test a transmitter #newbie #general_vna

 

On 2/14/21 10:19 PM, David McQuate wrote:
Yes. 5W is +37 dBm. This attenuator can handle 5W continuously, and its 41 dB attenuation will reduce the transmitter signal to -4 dBm. The TinySA max input power is +10 dBm with its internal attenuator set to 0 dB, so you are ok. Using more attenuation in the TinySA might be prudent. Note the qrpkit attenuator upper frequency limit is 200 MHz. Its attenuation will probably be reduced at higher frequencies.
Dave

Cierra <dubosec@...> wrote:


they have some other attenuators that might be more suitable (and cheaper) - you might look at the single T attenuator or at the dummy load. (I worry about a switched attenuator - if you accidentally forget to switch it, poof goes your SA)

That dummy load, which has a diode detector, looks interesting. What I would do is take a 50k noninductive resistor in series with the SA input and hook it to the 50 ohm line on the input of the load (making a 1000:1 voltage divider with the input Z of the SA).? That will give you about 60 dB of attenuation, putting your 5W at -23 dBm


Re: Hardware deficiencies when measuring high impedance with S21

 

This is on H4 not SAA.
There is no such thing as "cloned firmware" so not sure
what you are refering to.

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 07:56, Klaus W?rner <dl5kv@...> wrote:

Hi,
which firmware have you used? I found out that the newest cloned firmwares
for the SAA2 has a worse quality than older. The firmwares until Sept. 2020
are OK. Later versions are not usable. I posted it but no of the developers
are interested in it. Unfortunately only one user has answered.

--
Klaus, DL5KV






Re: Nano VNA slides latest edition via k3eui Barry

 

Hello,

Has your presentation been "YouTubed"?

Thanks, larry


Re: Nano VNA slides latest edition via k3eui Barry

 

Hello,

Has it been "YouTubed"?

Thanks, larry


Re: Hardware deficiencies when measuring high impedance with S21

 

Hello Klaus,
how about the ojisan firmware.
I have added a patch (2.8 inch LCD only) to make a screenshot with a Python program,
see:

73, Rudi DL5FA


Re: NANOVNA-H GONE NUTS

 

You made calibration, and after you measure calibration load on this device and get 50 Om?

Or you measure calibration load on different device?


Re: Hardware deficiencies when measuring high impedance with S21

 

Hi,
which firmware have you used? I found out that the newest cloned firmwares for the SAA2 has a worse quality than older. The firmwares until Sept. 2020 are OK. Later versions are not usable. I posted it but no of the developers are interested in it. Unfortunately only one user has answered.

--
Klaus, DL5KV


Re: NANOVNA-H GONE NUTS

 

load measured 50.1 on my VOM as soon as I say DONE it starts is there a repair facility anywhere? Silly thing, I really liked using it for antenna analysis. sigh..


Re: Using a nanoVNA to test a transmitter #newbie #general_vna

 

Yes. 5W is +37 dBm. This attenuator can handle 5W continuously, and its 41 dB attenuation will reduce the transmitter signal to -4 dBm. The TinySA max input power is +10 dBm with its internal attenuator set to 0 dB, so you are ok. Using more attenuation in the TinySA might be prudent. Note the qrpkit attenuator upper frequency limit is 200 MHz. Its attenuation will probably be reduced at higher frequencies.
Dave

Cierra <dubosec@...> wrote:

So, in theory an attenuator like this connected between a 5W
transmitter and TinySA would work?





Sent with mySecureMail.


Re: Using a nanoVNA to test a transmitter #newbie #general_vna

 

So, in theory an attenuator like this connected between a 5W transmitter and TinySA would work?


Re: NANOVNA-H GONE NUTS

 

Need check calibration kit/RF connectors/cable

If before calibration all look good, i think problem in 50 Om calibration, check it


Re: NANOVNA-H GONE NUTS

 

This is what it does immediately after I save the cal data to 0 slot. Wow


Re: NANOVNA-H GONE NUTS

 

ok it accepted
config and all data cleared... yea So far so good..
73 Paul


Re: NANOVNA-H GONE NUTS

 

HI Roger
got it into terminal mode and ran Clearconfig but its not happy w the "1234" Then what ???


Re: measuring Capacitance or Inductance

 

Drake TR7/TR4310.

73

-Jim
NU0C

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 03:31:07 +0100
"Dragan Milivojevic" <d.milivojevic@...> wrote:

Forgot to ask, what's this legendary piece of equipment,
it has transistors so it can't be that good ?

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 03:27, Jim Shorney <jshorney@...> wrote:


Yeah, I remembered that about the one on the left after I sent the pic.
The one on the right he called a "buzz kill".

73

-Jim
NU0C

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 02:07:44 +0000 (UTC)
"Bob Albert via groups.io" <bob91343@...> wrote:

The left hand one is bypassed with a .01 so that doesn't count. I am
puzzled by the other one; what's it supposed to do?









Re: NANOVNA-H GONE NUTS

 

The file you want is NanoVNA-App.rar. It is a rar archive, which is similar to a ZIP.

73

-Jim
NU0C


On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 16:49:46 -0800
"paul kobetz" <pkobetz@...> wrote:

Roger TU for the reply I wish i understood what you are referring to? I went to the OneofEleven site and it is in GitHub I dont see an executable file which I could run.