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--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Robert B. Bonner"
<rbonner@...> wrote:

Jim,

I know several years ago a friend sent me some copies of the posts

on AMPS

when I wasn't a member. There were comments rather heated

regarding POWER

SERVICES and AC wiring to amps.

### yes.. that was cheap entertainment... happens every 4 yrs
on 'AMPS'.

I will end that quickly here as I won't tolerate incorrect info to

pass me

by. You are a smart guy, very knowledgeable and have some good

experiences

but let's define power services / wiring correctly to avoid any

errors.

You and I are saying the same things but differently. Separated

by a common

language.

### agreed.

I worked three years as an electrician... Knew my business.

### I'm not.. but gotta work with em, and power engineers once
in a while... sometimes major projects.

Standard 220V residential circuits are two wire, the third wire is

a GROUND

(Green) not a neutral.

### partially agreed . In Canada... ALL 220 v appliances EXCEPT
a hot water tank, are 4 wire.

Most dryers are 2 wires plus ground here.

### Our dryers are all 4 wire. The motor is always 120 v..
separately internally fused from one of the hot legs. Dunno why..
seems silly a 220 v motor isn't used.



You wire your Ameritron its two

wires plus a ground.

### agreed... ditto with RL drake amps. No neutral needed. They
do it that way for one reason.... to sell em in EU/VK/ZL, etc...
where all they have is 220 V, 2 x hots + grnd. NO neutral in
the normal sense. In the UK... one side of the 220 V IS
grnded.... so look at that as one hot 220 v leg.. and one grnded
neutral leg.

If you have a 4 wire 220 circuit including Power Cord and a 4

conductor

plug... Two blacks a white and a green. You have 220 plus

neutral. This

will give you 220V via two 120 circuits and a ground. This is a

direct

extension of your panel service.

## agreed.

Most residential 220V items don't use 4 wire.

## see above.

Not to be confused with 3 Phase which is all different colors /

uses.

### agreed. With 3 phase.. u gotta worry about cw or ccw
rotation as well.... esp with interfacing with gen sets. 208 V
is popular... simply cuz any phase to neutral is 120 v. We also
use 480 V 3 phase... but NO neutral.

In residential services in the states we tie the NEUTRALS and the

GROUND

Buss together in the main panels, however that NEVER by definition

makes

them "the same thing". Neutral is Neutral and Ground is always

Ground.

### agreed.... but only main panels.... not sub panels. [strap
removed between gnd and neutral buss on all sub panels.]

Try switching them in a ground fault circuit and the breaker will

blow.

The green wire should NEVER conduct current. SO if you are

utilizing a 120

volt transformer somewhere in your homebrew for a control circuit

or

filament you should also be utilizing either a 220-120V step down
transformer in your construction OR a 4 wire 220 circuit to meet

code...

### yes... all of my 120 v blowers, fil xfmrs, etc... utilize the
4 wire cicuit. Each of the 120 v devices is individually fused.
That meets code.

This is why large commercial HF power generators like the Henrys

(even the

8K) have 220-120 step down transformers inside them.

Others use 220V filament transformers not 120 to meet the

electrical code...

Why don't they use all 220 transformers? New regs requiring both

legs to

blow when one goes. They put gangbared main breakers on the gear,

but

utilize 120 volt fuses for all the other small circuits to save

money. The

220-120 step down is cheaper to fuse than dual breakers on all

circuits.

Now will it work your way? That is 120V circuits wired to one

side of the

line? YES... Does it meet code? No...

### sure it does. You even said so a few paragraphs above...
as long as a 4 wire circuit is used... and individually sub
fused for the 120 v stuff.

### Any 220 v stuff HAS to use a tie bar between poles of
breaker. Having to open BOTH sides of a 220 v circuit just
killed any notion of using separate fuses per leg.... or
breakers without the ganged tie-bar. Dunno about my concept of
using BOTH a ganged 2 x pole breaker AND high speed fuses... one
fuse per hot leg... downstream of ganged 2 x pole breaker. IF
just ONE fuse popped open.. the other fuse would remain intact...
and the slower 2 x pole ganged breaker would remain intact....
the result being.. only one leg is opened off. Meanwhile, ur Dahl
plate xfmr loses power on primary..... until Joe ham... thinking
the power is OFF... gets in there...inside... grnds out one leg of
xfmr.... and ends up with 120 V fed to the 240 v primary...
resulting in 1/2 normal plate V, etc. With one hot leg still
intact [say it was 30-100A]... joe ham could still manage to
either electrocute himself... or melt stuff.

That being the case... and not being able to install fast fuses per
leg..... to protect a HV supply.... the only real option is a HV
fuse + glitch R. The best I can see for a 240 v primary... is
using "controlled magnetic hydraulic" breakers... with the 2 x
poles ganged together. Most of em come in different trip curve
ratings... so u want the FASTEST one possible.

I still can't find a half decent 100-A FAST magnetic breaker....
in any catalog.... haven't looked at all of em though.

FYI The base Alpha 77 wasn't UL approved. It had a hot ground

wire. There

was a higher cost version that had a step down transformer in it

if you

REQUIRED a two wire circuit. That's mentioned right in their

manual.

### amazing. IF one is going to the trbl of installing a new
240 V line to schack.... you may as well do it right the 1st
time... and install a 4 wire curcuit.

You are correct on all the other points. The separate CB's

wouldn't fly

today without a tied together gangbar to kill both sides of the AC

line.

A Grandfathered in system does not make it a good system. :-(

That's what I was referring to as CHEATING The System. Breaking

the

Electrical Code.

Since we are basically saying the same thing differently... We

have no

argument.

## agreed. I should obtain a copy of the latest code... since
mine is dated... I knew of SOME of the updates ... but not all....
like the new code sez all new homes must have arc detectors for
all bedrooms etc.

### In a lot of cases... if one is doing major updates on an
older home... they will want EXISTING... other stuff brought up
to new code standards.

### I dunno if AL conductor's are even allowed in homes
anymore. One home I had in the 80's had 12 ga AL wire...instead
of the usual 14 ga CU. I'm sure it was eventually banned. I
can see why. My son's bedroom duplex outlet ended up like charcoal
one day. The AL conductor's... doesn't matter how tight u crank
the screws.... always ends up going slack.. then u get a
resistance joint, etc. Pwr co's use exclusively AL conductor's
in the field... cuz of weight... and cost.

later.... Jim VE7RF

BOB DD

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "pentalab" <jim.thomson@...>
wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Robert B. Bonner"
<rbonner@> wrote:

Jim,

I know several years ago a friend sent me some copies of the

posts

on AMPS

when I wasn't a member. There were comments rather heated

regarding POWER

SERVICES and AC wiring to amps.

### yes.. that was cheap entertainment... happens every 4 yrs
on 'AMPS'.

I will end that quickly here as I won't tolerate incorrect info

to

pass me

by. You are a smart guy, very knowledgeable and have some good

experiences

but let's define power services / wiring correctly to avoid any

errors.

You and I are saying the same things but differently. Separated

by a common

language.

### agreed.

I worked three years as an electrician... Knew my business.

### I'm not.. but gotta work with em, and power engineers once
in a while... sometimes major projects.

Standard 220V residential circuits are two wire, the third wire

is

a GROUND

(Green) not a neutral.

### partially agreed . In Canada... ALL 220 v appliances

EXCEPT

a hot water tank, are 4 wire.

Most dryers are 2 wires plus ground here.

### Our dryers are all 4 wire. The motor is always 120 v..
separately internally fused from one of the hot legs. Dunno why..
seems silly a 220 v motor isn't used.



You wire your Ameritron its two

wires plus a ground.

### agreed... ditto with RL drake amps. No neutral needed. They
do it that way for one reason.... to sell em in EU/VK/ZL, etc...
where all they have is 220 V, 2 x hots + grnd. NO neutral in
the normal sense. In the UK... one side of the 220 V IS
grnded.... so look at that as one hot 220 v leg.. and one grnded
neutral leg.

If you have a 4 wire 220 circuit including Power Cord and a 4

conductor

plug... Two blacks a white and a green. You have 220 plus

neutral. This

will give you 220V via two 120 circuits and a ground. This is a

direct

extension of your panel service.

## agreed.

Most residential 220V items don't use 4 wire.

## see above.

Not to be confused with 3 Phase which is all different colors /

uses.

### agreed. With 3 phase.. u gotta worry about cw or ccw
rotation as well.... esp with interfacing with gen sets. 208 V
is popular... simply cuz any phase to neutral is 120 v. We

also

use 480 V 3 phase... but NO neutral.

In residential services in the states we tie the NEUTRALS and the

GROUND

Buss together in the main panels, however that NEVER by

definition

makes

them "the same thing". Neutral is Neutral and Ground is always

Ground.

### agreed.... but only main panels.... not sub panels. [strap
removed between gnd and neutral buss on all sub panels.]

Try switching them in a ground fault circuit and the breaker will

blow.

The green wire should NEVER conduct current. SO if you are

utilizing a 120

volt transformer somewhere in your homebrew for a control circuit

or

filament you should also be utilizing either a 220-120V step down
transformer in your construction OR a 4 wire 220 circuit to meet

code...

### yes... all of my 120 v blowers, fil xfmrs, etc... utilize the
4 wire cicuit. Each of the 120 v devices is individually

fused.

That meets code.

This is why large commercial HF power generators like the Henrys

(even the

8K) have 220-120 step down transformers inside them.

Others use 220V filament transformers not 120 to meet the

electrical code...

Why don't they use all 220 transformers? New regs requiring both

legs to

blow when one goes. They put gangbared main breakers on the

gear,

but

utilize 120 volt fuses for all the other small circuits to save

money. The

220-120 step down is cheaper to fuse than dual breakers on all

circuits.

Now will it work your way? That is 120V circuits wired to one

side of the

line? YES... Does it meet code? No...

### sure it does. You even said so a few paragraphs above...
as long as a 4 wire circuit is used... and individually sub
fused for the 120 v stuff.

### Any 220 v stuff HAS to use a tie bar between poles of
breaker. Having to open BOTH sides of a 220 v circuit just
killed any notion of using separate fuses per leg.... or
breakers without the ganged tie-bar. Dunno about my concept of
using BOTH a ganged 2 x pole breaker AND high speed fuses...

one

fuse per hot leg... downstream of ganged 2 x pole breaker. IF
just ONE fuse popped open.. the other fuse would remain intact...
and the slower 2 x pole ganged breaker would remain intact....
the result being.. only one leg is opened off. Meanwhile, ur

Dahl

plate xfmr loses power on primary..... until Joe ham... thinking
the power is OFF... gets in there...inside... grnds out one leg

of

xfmr.... and ends up with 120 V fed to the 240 v primary...
resulting in 1/2 normal plate V, etc. With one hot leg

still

intact [say it was 30-100A]... joe ham could still manage to
either electrocute himself... or melt stuff.

That being the case... and not being able to install fast fuses

per

leg..... to protect a HV supply.... the only real option is a

HV

fuse + glitch R. The best I can see for a 240 v primary... is
using "controlled magnetic hydraulic" breakers... with the 2 x
poles ganged together. Most of em come in different trip curve
ratings... so u want the FASTEST one possible.

I still can't find a half decent 100-A FAST magnetic

breaker....

in any catalog.... haven't looked at all of em though.

FYI The base Alpha 77 wasn't UL approved. It had a hot ground

wire. There

was a higher cost version that had a step down transformer in it

if you

REQUIRED a two wire circuit. That's mentioned right in their

manual.

### amazing. IF one is going to the trbl of installing a new
240 V line to schack.... you may as well do it right the 1st
time... and install a 4 wire curcuit.

You are correct on all the other points. The separate CB's

wouldn't fly

today without a tied together gangbar to kill both sides of the

AC

line.

A Grandfathered in system does not make it a good system. :-(

That's what I was referring to as CHEATING The System. Breaking

the

Electrical Code.

Since we are basically saying the same thing differently... We

have no

argument.

## agreed. I should obtain a copy of the latest code... since
mine is dated... I knew of SOME of the updates ... but not all....
like the new code sez all new homes must have arc detectors for
all bedrooms etc.

### In a lot of cases... if one is doing major updates on an
older home... they will want EXISTING... other stuff brought up
to new code standards.

### I dunno if AL conductor's are even allowed in homes
anymore. One home I had in the 80's had 12 ga AL wire...instead
of the usual 14 ga CU. I'm sure it was eventually banned. I
can see why. My son's bedroom duplex outlet ended up like

charcoal

one day. The AL conductor's... doesn't matter how tight u crank
the screws.... always ends up going slack.. then u get a
resistance joint, etc. Pwr co's use exclusively AL conductor's
in the field... cuz of weight... and cost.

They done away with aluminum romex cable, too many trailer and house
fires over it. The trailer (mobile home) industry used it the most.
Heavy aluminum cable has to be installed with an anti-corrosive on
the bare aluminum after it's stripped. The stuff we used came in a
plastic squirt bottle like ketchup is in at a restaurant. It was a
black greasy like stuff. You applied it to the bare aluminum wire
before it's placed in the terminal hole and the set screw tightened
down on it. It'll not pass an inspection if that's not applied to
aluminum wire anymore. They still use the large aluminum cable for
electric furnaces - heat pumps in homes.

later.... Jim VE7RF

BOB DD

Best,


Will

I enjoyed reading all through this one to see what all the little comments
were.

I think by all of us comparing notes and adding to each other's knowledge
base and laying it out here maybe only 13 Hams/CBers will blow their asses
off wiring amplifiers in their mobile homes this year.

I'm so glad we could be of assistance to the general population like this.
Somebody should give us a medal or something.

:-) BOB DD

I think by all of us comparing notes and adding to each other's knowledge
base and laying it out here maybe only 13 Hams/CBers will blow their asses
off wiring amplifiers in their mobile homes this year.

I'm so glad we could be of assistance to the general population like this.
Somebody should give us a medal or something.

See link below for more details regarding new 2007 NEC wiring amendments:




--
73 Jason N1SU

Jason,

I hate to even write this as some joker working with the NEC might
take it to heart and have it done, LOL! Anyhow, I have seen times
when I did wish a cable did have two bare grounds in it, and it was
permissable to use. The reason being is that when you bring the cable
into an outlet box, junction box, etc, the bare ground has to be
connected to the box and the outlet or switch. The ground wire from
the cable then needs two 6 inch pieces of bare wire attached to its
end using a pigtail splice with a wire nut. That's three wires
twisted together under the nut. Then one 6" wire goes to the green
screw on the outlet or switch, and the other 6" wire is applied to
the box with a ground clip, or under a ground screw head. All this
then gets stuffed inside the box. By having the extra ground, that
splice then dissapears and there's more room in the box. One ground
wire to the outlet, and one to the box. When your wiring junction
boxes from a wall switch for a lamp, then you have two cables coming
in, with all the grounds needing to be spliced together (four bare
under a wire nut). This can be kind of hard to stuff all that in a
box.

The more wire in a box, the fire hazard increases. After a certain
number of wires in a box, the box has to be re-sized larger to pass
code. I can't remember though if they count the spliced on wires as
being counted each, or they count them all as one. If as one, it
would make more room I would think, but the extra ground wire might
make it go over the box limit, I'm not sure. It would get one out of
that splice with a large wire nut which takes up a good bit of room.
The problem then arises making the cable stiffer and harder to pull!

Anyhow, that was just a thought I've had when installing switches,
etc and curssing over trying to stuff all that in a small box (10
pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag).

In the photo, I wonder why the one bare ground is stranded? I guess
that's the extra-extra ground that would cover a spec for either
stranded or solid... Hi Hi!!

Best,

Will



--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Jason Buchanan" <jsb@...>
wrote:

I think by all of us comparing notes and adding to each other's

knowledge

base and laying it out here maybe only 13 Hams/CBers will blow

their asses

off wiring amplifiers in their mobile homes this year.

I'm so glad we could be of assistance to the general population

like this.

Somebody should give us a medal or something.

See link below for more details regarding new 2007 NEC wiring

amendments:

--
73 Jason N1SU

The issue is not what the latest NEC requirements happen to be, it's questions like: Does it make electrical sense that to be "safe" we need 4 wires for a 240v circuit, where 2 of the 4 wires carry zero- current? Recently when I was at Home Depot, I saw a reel of 4- conductor #8 Cu. At first it struck me as odd, but then it dawned on me that this was the NEC's latest rule for wiring electric ovens and dryers.

cheers, Jason.

On Nov 17, 2006, at 9:24 PM, Jason Buchanan wrote:

I think by all of us comparing notes and adding to each other's

knowledge

base and laying it out here maybe only 13 Hams/CBers will blow

their asses

off wiring amplifiers in their mobile homes this year.

I'm so glad we could be of assistance to the general population

like this.

Somebody should give us a medal or something.

See link below for more details regarding new 2007 NEC wiring amendments:



--
73 Jason N1SU...

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

The issue is not what the latest NEC requirements happen to be,
it's questions like: Does it make electrical sense that to

be "safe" we need 4 wires for a 240v circuit, where 2 of the 4
wires carry zero- current? Recently when I was at Home Depot, I saw
a reel of 4- conductor #8 Cu. At first it struck me as odd, but
then it dawned on me that this was the NEC's latest rule for
wiring electric ovens and dryers.

### Rich... u still don't "get it". On any stove made in the
last 45 yrs... they all have a 120 vac outlet..sometimes two.
Most still have a row of glass fuses inside the top cover. A
stove would have to have a neutral just to run the 120 v stuff.
The built in light runs on 120 v. I'm not quite sure.... but
think the small burners on top run on 120 v.. may be wrong. I
think they ran 2 x burners from one hot leg.... and the other 2
burners from the other hot leg.

## To recap.... 3 of the wires carry current. The 4th is to
save ur skin.

later... Jim VE7RF

On Nov 18, 2006, at 6:47 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

The issue is not what the latest NEC requirements happen to be,
it's questions like: Does it make electrical sense that to

be "safe" we need 4 wires for a 240v circuit, where 2 of the 4
wires carry zero- current? Recently when I was at Home Depot, I saw
a reel of 4- conductor #8 Cu. At first it struck me as odd, but
then it dawned on me that this was the NEC's latest rule for
wiring electric ovens and dryers.

### Rich... u still don't "get it".

Correctomundo, Jim

On any stove made in the
last 45 yrs... they all have a 120 vac outlet..sometimes two.

My GE has no outlets, but it does have a 40w, 120v lamp.

Most still have a row of glass fuses inside the top cover. A
stove would have to have a neutral just to run the 120 v stuff.
The built in light runs on 120 v. I'm not quite sure.... but
think the small burners on top run on 120 v.. may be wrong.

Semi-correct. 120v on low heat. 240v on high heat.

I
think they ran 2 x burners from one hot leg.... and the other 2
burners from the other hot leg.

Not on my GE.

## To recap.... 3 of the wires carry current. The 4th is to
save ur skin.

In someone's theory, yes, in reality, if no 4th wire were used, with a dead short from one L to N at the stove, there would be c. 50V on the enclosure for <2-seconds.

later... Jim VE7RF

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

My new GE stove the fourth wire goes to case ground N goes inside. No 120 volt outlet. A stove always used the neutral to pass current in low heat settings.

R L Measures wrote:

On Nov 18, 2006, at 9:00 AM, FRANCIS CARCIA wrote:

My new GE stove the fourth wire goes to case ground N goes inside.
No 120 volt outlet. A stove always used the neutral to pass current
in low heat settings.

That makes sense, so if the Low burner setting on my old 3-wire GE
stove pulls 1A at 120v, there is c. a 1100 ?V potential between the
third wire on the frame and gnd.

R L Measures <r@...> wrote:


On Nov 18, 2006, at 6:47 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

The issue is not what the latest NEC requirements happen to be,
it's questions like: Does it make electrical sense that to

be "safe" we need 4 wires for a 240v circuit, where 2 of the 4
wires carry zero- current? Recently when I was at Home Depot, I saw
a reel of 4- conductor #8 Cu. At first it struck me as odd, but
then it dawned on me that this was the NEC's latest rule for
wiring electric ovens and dryers.

### Rich... u still don't "get it".

Correctomundo, Jim

On any stove made in the
last 45 yrs... they all have a 120 vac outlet..sometimes two.

My GE has no outlets, but it does have a 40w, 120v lamp.

Most still have a row of glass fuses inside the top cover. A
stove would have to have a neutral just to run the 120 v stuff.
The built in light runs on 120 v. I'm not quite sure.... but
think the small burners on top run on 120 v.. may be wrong.

Semi-correct. 120v on low heat. 240v on high heat.

I
think they ran 2 x burners from one hot leg.... and the other 2
burners from the other hot leg.

Not on my GE.

## To recap.... 3 of the wires carry current. The 4th is to
save ur skin.

In someone's theory, yes, in reality, if no 4th wire were used, with
a dead short from one L to N at the stove, there would be c. 50V on
the enclosure for <2-seconds.

later... Jim VE7RF

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org