--- In ham_amplifiers@..., Jan Erik Holm <sm2ekm@...>
wrote:

Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,
lets say around 5 kV DC potential, how much glitch C
is needed to achieve 1.5 percent ripple?

Forgot how to calculate it, must dig out books
to do it.

73 Jim SM2EKM

### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and
with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need any
C at all ! [3 phase]

### Seems to me.... WAY back on 'amps'.... somebody tried this....
and with NO HV cap installed on the output..... one leg of the
diode board would always blow out ! It needed just a little bit
of C to make things happy for some reason.[3 phase + resonant
choke.... NO output HV cap. ]

### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input
filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It
would also highly depend on the load.

### With NO load [just the eq resistor's across the lytics, etc...
which basicly is zip]... ripple is nil. The greater the
load.... the worse any ripple gets. You can see 3% ripple...
plane as day with a dead cxr, on any RF "monitor scope". Looks
like a small sine wave across both the top and bottom. Should
be a solid green bar.

### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV
supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase....
so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you
find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested. Somebody
is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better
research it.

### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some
where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info.
Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta".....
and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set
up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec
winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage
per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me.
With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414
Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory]

In any event... the entire concept looked cool .... which could
easily be implemented with either a 3 phase xfmr.... or 3 x
separate xfmrs. Dahl's diode boards for this appear to have
6 x legs for the entire mess.......... instead of 4 x legs for
single phase FWB..... which, incidently he rates at 18 A CCS....
using just standard 6A10 diodes [1 kv-6] diodes.

He rates a standard FWB.. with the usual 4 x legs at 12 A
CCS... using the same 6A10 1 kv-6A diodes.

Now 6 A x .8 V = 4.8 watts.... which would get VERY hot.
I experimented with mine.. in a test jig... just pumping low V
DC... and a variable lab supply + a 25 ohm-225 w resistor... and
found that the 1N5408 [1 kv-3A] would run luke warm with 1 A
CCS... and hot at 2A... and smokin hot at 3 A. Similar results
with the 6A10 [6 A- 1 kv]... runs luke warm with 2 A CCS...
hot
with 4 A.... and smokin hot with 6A.

Commercial rectifier assy's using these diodes... some of em
will blow 100 cfm across em.... if u want to run em anywhere
near maxed out.

I also tried paralleling 3A diodes for more current [and also
6A diodes] .. Done easily... and the current split is
virtually 50-50. So I don't understand the ARRL handbook insisting
installing series resistor's in each leg for balancing ? I
also tried paralleling two separate, identical bridge rectifier
assys.... same results.

One other note... Just by hooking a test clip lead on the very
1st and very last diode.. while doing my heating tests... I
found that the 1st and last diode ran barely warm.... while the
rest of em ran hot. The leads out each end of these diodes IS
the heatsink.... so don't cut em off short.... they either have
to go along aways horizontally b4 doing a right angle into the
board... OR go straight through the board... and keep going in mid
air below the board 1" to 1.5"

Later.... Jim VE7RF

To achieve 1,5% ripple from a 6-pulse power supply of 5KV at 3A you will
need a capacitor of 0,32?F.
Without any cap ripple will be 4%.
You will not here any hum from a transmitter without capacitor in the
6-pulse capacitor when using sideband transmissions.
From a carrier you here little hum on zerobeat.

The formula to find C for the 3-phase bridge circuit is the same as for any
other circuit, just calculate C from XC by using 300Hz in the formula.
How the transformer is connected does not matter, usually the primary will
be delta for best efficiency and the secondary will be star connected.
You will have 2 diodes per leg. The voltage across one winding is dc/sqrt6.

I my 7KV 4A CCS P/S I use UGE1112AY4 diodes by IXCYS, 3 per leg, just scewed
one into the next.



The transformer secondary is 5KV +/-5%, +/-10% phase to phase, or 2887V
across one winding.
I use 2?F 10KV for smoothing and a crowbar overload circuit with it.

73
Peter


________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...]
On Behalf Of pentalab

Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,
lets say around 5 kV DC potential, how much glitch C
is needed to achieve 1.5 percent ripple?

### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and
with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need any
C at all ! [3 phase]

### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input
filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It
would also highly depend on the load.

### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV
supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase....
so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you
find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested. Somebody
is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better
research it.

### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some
where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info.
Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta".....
and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set
up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec
winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage
per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me.
With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414
Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory]

A 3 phase service is mighty fine to have if one can afford to have it
put in. I've not checked on the price in a while, but back in 1985, a
200 amp 220 volt service ran around $2000 from the power company for
the transformers, and the service entrance, meter base, etc was extra.
I was having one put in at my machine shop building I had at the time.
I wish I had the health back to do all that again. At the time I had
an electric shop running, and a machine and assembly shop a couple of
miles up the road. I used to design and build custom fab machinery for
the railroads. Sure is a good business to be in. Anyhow, 3 phase can
sure make life a lot easier if you plan on running reverseable motors,
and anything else that needs some umph behind it. One could do it with
a pony motor, but I'm not sure how good that would work.

Back in the old days, and some do this now, is run a generator (really
an alternator without the rectifier stack) in a mobile supplying LV 3
phase to run a HV transformer. That get's you out of running an
inverter. A certain company down in Memphis, Tn used to supply a
mobile kW (1800 PEP out) with the generator that way. I here about a
guy in Florida building these today, and was buying the transformers
from Galaxy Transformer. I recon he's built a few with tubes with
handles. Of course you need enough engine to run it too.

Best,

Will


--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@...>
wrote:

To achieve 1,5% ripple from a 6-pulse power supply of 5KV at 3A you

will

need a capacitor of 0,32?F.
Without any cap ripple will be 4%.
You will not here any hum from a transmitter without capacitor in

the

6-pulse capacitor when using sideband transmissions.
From a carrier you here little hum on zerobeat.

The formula to find C for the 3-phase bridge circuit is the same as

for any

other circuit, just calculate C from XC by using 300Hz in the

formula.

How the transformer is connected does not matter, usually the

primary will

be delta for best efficiency and the secondary will be star

connected.

You will have 2 diodes per leg. The voltage across one winding is

dc/sqrt6.

I my 7KV 4A CCS P/S I use UGE1112AY4 diodes by IXCYS, 3 per leg,

just scewed

one into the next.



The transformer secondary is 5KV +/-5%, +/-10% phase to phase, or

2887V

across one winding.
I use 2?F 10KV for smoothing and a crowbar overload circuit with it.

73
Peter


________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:

ham_amplifiers@...]

On Behalf Of pentalab

Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,
lets say around 5 kV DC potential, how much glitch C
is needed to achieve 1.5 percent ripple?

### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and
with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need any
C at all ! [3 phase]

### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input
filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It
would also highly depend on the load.

### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV
supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase....
so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you
find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested. Somebody
is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better
research it.

### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some
where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info.
Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta".....
and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set
up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec
winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage
per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me.
With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414
Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory]

Being that my Bridgeport mill is 1.5 HP, I use a rotary convertor to
change the 220X1 to 220X3... Not perfect but it works...
I did consider asking Consumers Power Co. to give me a price for 3
phase to the shop... But getting underground power to my house
required my atty petitioning the court for a 'show cause' order -
insiders at the company tell me their field supervisor is still
smarting from the corporate VP giving him a public chewing out over
that one - I suspect the bill would spin my hat...



denny

Sometimes, a 3-0 service has a monthly minimum charge that will blow
the hat clean off of one's head.

On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:26 AM, ad4hk2004 wrote:

Being that my Bridgeport mill is 1.5 HP, I use a rotary convertor to
change the 220X1 to 220X3... Not perfect but it works...
I did consider asking Consumers Power Co. to give me a price for 3
phase to the shop... But getting underground power to my house
required my atty petitioning the court for a 'show cause' order -
insiders at the company tell me their field supervisor is still
smarting from the corporate VP giving him a public chewing out over
that one - I suspect the bill would spin my hat...



denny

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd1@...> wrote:

A 3 phase service is mighty fine to have if one can afford to have it
put in. I've not checked on the price in a while, but back in 1985, a
200 amp 220 volt service ran around $2000 from the power company for
the transformers, and the service entrance, meter base, etc was
extra.
I was having one put in at my machine shop building I had at the
time.
I wish I had the health back to do all that again. At the time I had
an electric shop running, and a machine and assembly shop a couple of
miles up the road. I used to design and build custom fab machinery
for
the railroads. Sure is a good business to be in. Anyhow, 3 phase can
sure make life a lot easier if you plan on running reverseable motors,
and anything else that needs some umph behind it. One could do it
with
a pony motor, but I'm not sure how good that would work.

Back in the old days, and some do this now, is run a generator
(really
an alternator without the rectifier stack) in a mobile supplying LV 3
phase to run a HV transformer. That get's you out of running an
inverter. A certain company down in Memphis, Tn used to supply a
mobile kW (1800 PEP out) with the generator that way. I here about a
guy in Florida building these today, and was buying the transformers
from Galaxy Transformer. I recon he's built a few with tubes with
handles. Of course you need enough engine to run it too.

Best,

Will


--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@>
wrote:

To achieve 1,5% ripple from a 6-pulse power supply of 5KV at 3A you

will

need a capacitor of 0,32???F.
Without any cap ripple will be 4%.
You will not here any hum from a transmitter without capacitor in

the

6-pulse capacitor when using sideband transmissions.
From a carrier you here little hum on zerobeat.

The formula to find C for the 3-phase bridge circuit is the same as

for any

other circuit, just calculate C from XC by using 300Hz in the

formula.

How the transformer is connected does not matter, usually the

primary will

be delta for best efficiency and the secondary will be star

connected.

You will have 2 diodes per leg. The voltage across one winding is

dc/sqrt6.

I my 7KV 4A CCS P/S I use UGE1112AY4 diodes by IXCYS, 3 per leg,

just scewed

one into the next.



The transformer secondary is 5KV +/-5%, +/-10% phase to phase, or

2887V

across one winding.
I use 2???F 10KV for smoothing and a crowbar overload circuit
with it.

73
Peter


________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:

ham_amplifiers@...]

On Behalf Of pentalab

Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,
lets say around 5 kV DC potential, how much glitch C
is needed to achieve 1.5 percent ripple?

### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and
with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need any
C at all ! [3 phase]

### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input
filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It
would also highly depend on the load.

### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV
supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase....
so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you
find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested. Somebody
is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better
research it.

### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some
where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info.
Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta".....
and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set
up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec
winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage
per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me.
With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414
Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory]

Yahoo! Groups Links

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

Denny,

A rotary converter (pony motor) is the only way to do it correctly. A
static converter is simply a started capacitor bank to get the motor
up to speed then it drops out letting the motor run on just two of its
three coils. You loose 1/3 of your HP over it too. With a rotary
converter, you have all three coils running and all the HP rating.

When you put a 3 phase service in, the $2 grand was for the
transformers (45-50 kVA) and the incoming lines. One has to buy the
service entrance (conduit and pecker head), the wire, the meter base,
the conduit into the building, wire for it, ground, and the breaker or
fuse box. Then run wire to that. It can cost a good bit more.

Best,

Will

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "ad4hk2004" <ad4hk2004@...>
wrote:

Being that my Bridgeport mill is 1.5 HP, I use a rotary convertor to
change the 220X1 to 220X3... Not perfect but it works...
I did consider asking Consumers Power Co. to give me a price for 3
phase to the shop... But getting underground power to my house
required my atty petitioning the court for a 'show cause' order -
insiders at the company tell me their field supervisor is still
smarting from the corporate VP giving him a public chewing out over
that one - I suspect the bill would spin my hat...



denny

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd1@> wrote:

A 3 phase service is mighty fine to have if one can afford to have

it

put in. I've not checked on the price in a while, but back in

1985, a

200 amp 220 volt service ran around $2000 from the power company

for

the transformers, and the service entrance, meter base, etc was

extra.

I was having one put in at my machine shop building I had at the

time.

I wish I had the health back to do all that again. At the time I

had

an electric shop running, and a machine and assembly shop a couple

of

miles up the road. I used to design and build custom fab machinery

for

the railroads. Sure is a good business to be in. Anyhow, 3 phase

can

sure make life a lot easier if you plan on running reverseable

motors,

and anything else that needs some umph behind it. One could do it

with

a pony motor, but I'm not sure how good that would work.

Back in the old days, and some do this now, is run a generator

(really

an alternator without the rectifier stack) in a mobile supplying

LV 3

phase to run a HV transformer. That get's you out of running an
inverter. A certain company down in Memphis, Tn used to supply a
mobile kW (1800 PEP out) with the generator that way. I here about

a

guy in Florida building these today, and was buying the

transformers

from Galaxy Transformer. I recon he's built a few with tubes with
handles. Of course you need enough engine to run it too.

Best,

Will


--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@>
wrote:

To achieve 1,5% ripple from a 6-pulse power supply of 5KV at 3A

you

will

need a capacitor of 0,32???F.
Without any cap ripple will be 4%.
You will not here any hum from a transmitter without capacitor

in

the

6-pulse capacitor when using sideband transmissions.
From a carrier you here little hum on zerobeat.

The formula to find C for the 3-phase bridge circuit is the same

as

for any

other circuit, just calculate C from XC by using 300Hz in the

formula.

How the transformer is connected does not matter, usually the

primary will

be delta for best efficiency and the secondary will be star

connected.

You will have 2 diodes per leg. The voltage across one winding

is

dc/sqrt6.

I my 7KV 4A CCS P/S I use UGE1112AY4 diodes by IXCYS, 3 per leg,

just scewed

one into the next.



The transformer secondary is 5KV +/-5%, +/-10% phase to phase,

or

2887V

across one winding.
I use 2???F 10KV for smoothing and a crowbar overload circuit

with it.

73
Peter


________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:

ham_amplifiers@...]

On Behalf Of pentalab

Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,
lets say around 5 kV DC potential, how much glitch C
is needed to achieve 1.5 percent ripple?

### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and
with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need any
C at all ! [3 phase]

### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input
filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It
would also highly depend on the load.

### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV
supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase....
so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you
find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested. Somebody
is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better
research it.

### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some
where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info.
Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta".....
and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set
up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec
winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage
per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me.
With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414
Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory]

Rich,

I forget what they call that now, but they sure are! There's a minimum
you pay whether you use it or not.

Best,

Will

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

Sometimes, a 3-0 service has a monthly minimum charge that will blow

the hat clean off of one's head.

On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:26 AM, ad4hk2004 wrote:

Being that my Bridgeport mill is 1.5 HP, I use a rotary convertor

to

change the 220X1 to 220X3... Not perfect but it works...
I did consider asking Consumers Power Co. to give me a price for 3
phase to the shop... But getting underground power to my house
required my atty petitioning the court for a 'show cause' order -
insiders at the company tell me their field supervisor is still
smarting from the corporate VP giving him a public chewing out

over

that one - I suspect the bill would spin my hat...



denny

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd1@> wrote:

A 3 phase service is mighty fine to have if one can afford to

have it

put in. I've not checked on the price in a while, but back in

1985, a

200 amp 220 volt service ran around $2000 from the power company

for

the transformers, and the service entrance, meter base, etc was
extra.
I was having one put in at my machine shop building I had at the
time.
I wish I had the health back to do all that again. At the time I

had

an electric shop running, and a machine and assembly shop a

couple of

miles up the road. I used to design and build custom fab

machinery

for
the railroads. Sure is a good business to be in. Anyhow, 3 phase

can

sure make life a lot easier if you plan on running reverseable
motors,
and anything else that needs some umph behind it. One could do it

with
a pony motor, but I'm not sure how good that would work.

Back in the old days, and some do this now, is run a generator
(really
an alternator without the rectifier stack) in a mobile supplying

LV 3

phase to run a HV transformer. That get's you out of running an
inverter. A certain company down in Memphis, Tn used to supply a
mobile kW (1800 PEP out) with the generator that way. I here

about a

guy in Florida building these today, and was buying the

transformers

from Galaxy Transformer. I recon he's built a few with tubes with
handles. Of course you need enough engine to run it too.

Best,

Will


--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@>
wrote:

To achieve 1,5% ripple from a 6-pulse power supply of 5KV at 3A

you

will

need a capacitor of 0,32???F.
Without any cap ripple will be 4%.
You will not here any hum from a transmitter without capacitor

in

the

6-pulse capacitor when using sideband transmissions.
From a carrier you here little hum on zerobeat.

The formula to find C for the 3-phase bridge circuit is the same

as

for any

other circuit, just calculate C from XC by using 300Hz in the

formula.

How the transformer is connected does not matter, usually the

primary will

be delta for best efficiency and the secondary will be star

connected.

You will have 2 diodes per leg. The voltage across one winding

is

dc/sqrt6.

I my 7KV 4A CCS P/S I use UGE1112AY4 diodes by IXCYS, 3 per leg,

just scewed

one into the next.



The transformer secondary is 5KV +/-5%, +/-10% phase to phase,

or

2887V

across one winding.
I use 2???F 10KV for smoothing and a crowbar overload circuit
with it.

73
Peter


________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:

ham_amplifiers@...]

On Behalf Of pentalab

Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,
lets say around 5 kV DC potential, how much glitch C
is needed to achieve 1.5 percent ripple?

### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and
with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need any
C at all ! [3 phase]

### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input
filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It
would also highly depend on the load.

### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV
supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase....
so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you
find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested. Somebody
is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better
research it.

### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some
where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info.
Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta".....
and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set
up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec
winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage
per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me.
With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414
Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory]

Yahoo! Groups Links

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

PA3DUV escribi:

Euro 175.- to get concerted from single phase service to 3 phase service in the Lowlands. For that money you'll get:
3 fuses
a new 3 phase digital power/kWh meter
3 x 35 amps @ 400 VAC ( 42 kW AC, gud for 25 kW RF output ) = the same

And nothing else working from the same line. :)

Best regards
Guillermo - LU8EYW.

monthly fee compared to single phase service.
Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV
----- Original Message -----
*From:* R L Measures <mailto:r@...>
*To:* ham_amplifiers@...
<mailto:ham_amplifiers@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 04, 2006 2:38 PM
*Subject:* Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re: 3 - phase HV supply
Sometimes, a 3-0 service has a monthly minimum charge that will blow
the hat clean off of one's head.
On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:26 AM, ad4hk2004 wrote:

> Being that my Bridgeport mill is 1.5 HP, I use a rotary convertor to
> change the 220X1 to 220X3... Not perfect but it works...
> I did consider asking Consumers Power Co. to give me a price for 3
> phase to the shop... But getting underground power to my house
> required my atty petitioning the court for a 'show cause' order -
> insiders at the company tell me their field supervisor is still
> smarting from the corporate VP giving him a public chewing out over
> that one - I suspect the bill would spin my hat...
>
>
>
> denny
>
> --- In ham_amplifiers@...
<mailto:ham_amplifiers%40yahoogroups.com>, "craxd" <craxd1@...> wrote:
>>
>> A 3 phase service is mighty fine to have if one can afford to
have it
>> put in. I've not checked on the price in a while, but back in
1985, a
>> 200 amp 220 volt service ran around $2000 from the power company for
>> the transformers, and the service entrance, meter base, etc was
>> extra.
>> I was having one put in at my machine shop building I had at the
>> time.
>> I wish I had the health back to do all that again. At the time I had
>> an electric shop running, and a machine and assembly shop a
couple of
>> miles up the road. I used to design and build custom fab machinery
>> for
>> the railroads. Sure is a good business to be in. Anyhow, 3 phase can
>> sure make life a lot easier if you plan on running reverseable
>> motors,
>> and anything else that needs some umph behind it. One could do it
>> with
>> a pony motor, but I'm not sure how good that would work.
>>
>> Back in the old days, and some do this now, is run a generator
>> (really
>> an alternator without the rectifier stack) in a mobile supplying
LV 3
>> phase to run a HV transformer. That get's you out of running an
>> inverter. A certain company down in Memphis, Tn used to supply a
>> mobile kW (1800 PEP out) with the generator that way. I here about a
>> guy in Florida building these today, and was buying the transformers
>> from Galaxy Transformer. I recon he's built a few with tubes with
>> handles. Of course you need enough engine to run it too.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Will
>>
>>
>> --- In ham_amplifiers@...
<mailto:ham_amplifiers%40yahoogroups.com>, "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> To achieve 1,5% ripple from a 6-pulse power supply of 5KV at 3A you
>> will
>>> need a capacitor of 0,32F.
>>> Without any cap ripple will be 4%.
>>> You will not here any hum from a transmitter without capacitor in
>> the
>>> 6-pulse capacitor when using sideband transmissions.
>>> From a carrier you here little hum on zerobeat.
>>>
>>> The formula to find C for the 3-phase bridge circuit is the same as
>> for any
>>> other circuit, just calculate C from XC by using 300Hz in the
>> formula.
>>> How the transformer is connected does not matter, usually the
>> primary will
>>> be delta for best efficiency and the secondary will be star
>> connected.
>>> You will have 2 diodes per leg. The voltage across one winding is
>> dc/sqrt6.
>>>
>>> I my 7KV 4A CCS P/S I use UGE1112AY4 diodes by IXCYS, 3 per leg,
>> just scewed
>>> one into the next.
>>>
>>> <>
>>>
>>> The transformer secondary is 5KV +/-5%, +/-10% phase to phase, or
>> 2887V
>>> across one winding.
>>> I use 2F 10KV for smoothing and a crowbar overload circuit
>>> with it.
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: ham_amplifiers@...
<mailto:ham_amplifiers%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
>> ham_amplifiers@...
<mailto:ham_amplifiers%40yahoogroups.com>]
>>> On Behalf Of pentalab
>>>
>>>> Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,
>>>> lets say around 5 kV DC potential, how much glitch C
>>>> is needed to achieve 1.5 percent ripple?
>>>
>>> ### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and
>>> with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need any
>>> C at all ! [3 phase]
>>>
>>> ### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input
>>> filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It
>>> would also highly depend on the load.
>>>
>>> ### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV
>>> supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase....
>>> so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you
>>> find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested. Somebody
>>> is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better
>>> research it.
>>>
>>> ### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some
>>> where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info.
>>> Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta".....
>>> and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set
>>> up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec
>>> winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage
>>> per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me.
>>> With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414
>>> Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory]
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@... <mailto:r%40somis.org>, , rlm@...
<mailto:rlm%40somis.org>, www.somis.org

开云体育

Hi Dick,

That's not what I've been tolled by Eneco (power company)
in Capelle aan den IJssel when I moved into my new house
2 years ago. I forgot the actual quote, but it was more like in
the range of 1000.

Cheers,
Sasha YZ6X/PA

Dick,

That's a heck of a lot cheaper than here in the states.
Esentially, the monthly charge here is renting the transformers,
even though you pay the large fee to have them hung on the pole
and connected to the service you install (they are good enough
to give you three meters LOL). In the US, they nickel and dime
you to death, especially every little tax they can think of.
And to think, we fought the Revolutionary War over not wanting
to pay taxes to England! Here, the poor pay the tax, and the
rich prosper. I'm all for a flat tax where everyone except the
ones under the poverty level pay the same percentage. I'll never
see it in my lifetime I doubt.

Best,

Will


--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "PA3DUV" <pa3duv@...> wrote:

Euro 175.- to get concerted from single phase service to 3 phase

service in the Lowlands. For that money you'll get:

3 fuses
a new 3 phase digital power/kWh meter

3 x 35 amps @ 400 VAC ( 42 kW AC, gud for 25 kW RF output ) = the

same monthly fee compared to single phase service.

Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV



----- Original Message -----
From: R L Measures
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re: 3 - phase HV supply


Sometimes, a 3-0 service has a monthly minimum charge that will

blow

the hat clean off of one's head.

On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:26 AM, ad4hk2004 wrote:

> Being that my Bridgeport mill is 1.5 HP, I use a rotary

convertor to

> change the 220X1 to 220X3... Not perfect but it works...
> I did consider asking Consumers Power Co. to give me a price for

3

> phase to the shop... But getting underground power to my house
> required my atty petitioning the court for a 'show cause' order

-

> insiders at the company tell me their field supervisor is still
> smarting from the corporate VP giving him a public chewing out

over

> that one - I suspect the bill would spin my hat...
>
>
>
> denny
>
> --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd1@> wrote:
>>
>> A 3 phase service is mighty fine to have if one can afford to

have it

>> put in. I've not checked on the price in a while, but back in

1985, a

>> 200 amp 220 volt service ran around $2000 from the power

company for

>> the transformers, and the service entrance, meter base, etc was
>> extra.
>> I was having one put in at my machine shop building I had at

the

>> time.
>> I wish I had the health back to do all that again. At the time

I had

>> an electric shop running, and a machine and assembly shop a

couple of

>> miles up the road. I used to design and build custom fab

machinery

>> for
>> the railroads. Sure is a good business to be in. Anyhow, 3

phase can

>> sure make life a lot easier if you plan on running reverseable
>> motors,
>> and anything else that needs some umph behind it. One could do

it

>> with
>> a pony motor, but I'm not sure how good that would work.
>>
>> Back in the old days, and some do this now, is run a generator
>> (really
>> an alternator without the rectifier stack) in a mobile

supplying LV 3

>> phase to run a HV transformer. That get's you out of running an
>> inverter. A certain company down in Memphis, Tn used to supply

a

>> mobile kW (1800 PEP out) with the generator that way. I here

about a

>> guy in Florida building these today, and was buying the

transformers

>> from Galaxy Transformer. I recon he's built a few with tubes

with

>> handles. Of course you need enough engine to run it too.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Will
>>
>>
>> --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> To achieve 1,5% ripple from a 6-pulse power supply of 5KV at

3A you

>> will
>>> need a capacitor of 0,32???F.
>>> Without any cap ripple will be 4%.
>>> You will not here any hum from a transmitter without capacitor

in

>> the
>>> 6-pulse capacitor when using sideband transmissions.
>>> From a carrier you here little hum on zerobeat.
>>>
>>> The formula to find C for the 3-phase bridge circuit is the

same as

>> for any
>>> other circuit, just calculate C from XC by using 300Hz in the
>> formula.
>>> How the transformer is connected does not matter, usually the
>> primary will
>>> be delta for best efficiency and the secondary will be star
>> connected.
>>> You will have 2 diodes per leg. The voltage across one winding

is

>> dc/sqrt6.
>>>
>>> I my 7KV 4A CCS P/S I use UGE1112AY4 diodes by IXCYS, 3 per

leg,

>> just scewed
>>> one into the next.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The transformer secondary is 5KV +/-5%, +/-10% phase to phase,

or

>> 2887V
>>> across one winding.
>>> I use 2???F 10KV for smoothing and a crowbar overload circuit
>>> with it.
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:
>> ham_amplifiers@...]
>>> On Behalf Of pentalab
>>>
>>>> Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,
>>>> lets say around 5 kV DC potential, how much glitch C
>>>> is needed to achieve 1.5 percent ripple?
>>>
>>> ### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and
>>> with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need

any

>>> C at all ! [3 phase]
>>>
>>> ### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input
>>> filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It
>>> would also highly depend on the load.
>>>
>>> ### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV
>>> supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase...

.

>>> so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you
>>> find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested.

Somebody

>>> is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better
>>> research it.
>>>
>>> ### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some
>>> where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info.
>>> Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta"...

..

>>> and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set
>>> up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec
>>> winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage
>>> per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me.
>>> With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414
>>> Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory]
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

开云体育

Sasha,

That's a joke! Most houses in the Lowlands are pre wired for 3 phase mains.
I build my house in the mid 90's and the service panel has 4 wires + ground coming in. They only need to add 2 fuses and change out the meter. The utility is Essent and they charged me 175 Euros to do it. I had to rewire everything after the meter myself and add a three phase breaker and diff switch. That was an easy job though and did not cost me near Euro 1000.- ;-))

Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV

开云体育

Am 04.10.2006 um 15:17 schrieb PA3DUV:

Euro 175.- to get concerted from single phase service to 3 phase service in the Lowlands. For that money you'll get:

3 fuses
a new 3 phase digital power/kWh meter

3 x 35 amps @ 400 VAC ( 42 kW AC, gud for 25 kW RF output ) = the same monthly fee compared to single phase service.
Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV

Don't know if Peter already pointed out but in Germany 3 phase mains is standard for every house / building. The infrastructure is part of the standard installation. I do have 3 x 45 amps at 400 V AC as the mains entry into our house. No extra fees for 3 phase service or its installation.

A small plus in little Germany. But we have the paperworks no one else in the world has to do...

73, Frank

Hi Dick,

That sounds like a rather poor regulation for a 3-phase power supply.
Is your mains voltage already dropping?
I guess the transformer might be a bit too small to deliver 10KW, or is the
3-phase p/s heavier then 45kg?
Here at 7,5KV the B+ is dropping to 7,25KV loaded by 3A (load C=2mmF)

I had a look at the DX4 manual. They use a simple pi-net with a balun
output, no pi-L?
How good is the harmonic supression of it? I calculate just 30dbs on the
second and 43dbs on the third harmonic.

73
Peter

________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...]
On Behalf Of PA3DUV

The circuit diagram of the Emtron DX4 3 phase power supply can be found in
the
file section on
<>
It use the plate transformer in delta on the primary and star on the
secondary.
A FWD and 58 uf cap bank is used, output 3.2 kV, @ 3.5 amps peak the B+
drops to 3 kV

Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@...>
wrote:

Hi Dick,

3x35A is a 230/400V 25KW inlet.
For 40KW 63A fuses are to be installed, mine are 80A

### whoa. 35 A x 400 V = 14 kw per phase. x 3 phases = 42
kva.

### To get 25 kw out [assuming 67 % eff on the lower bands]
25,000/ .67 = 37,323 watts of DC input. = 37.323 x 1.21 = 45.149
Kva.

73 Jim VE7RF

73
Peter

_____

From: ham_amplifiers@...

[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...]

On Behalf Of PA3DUV
Sent: Mittwoch, 4. Oktober 2006 15:18
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re: 3 - phase HV supply




Euro 175.- to get concerted from single phase service to 3 phase

service in

the Lowlands. For that money you'll get:

3 fuses
a new 3 phase digital power/kWh meter

3 x 35 amps @ 400 VAC ( 42 kW AC, gud for 25 kW RF output ) = the

same

monthly fee compared to single phase service.
Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV

On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:51 AM, craxd wrote:

Rich,

I forget what they call that now, but they sure are! There's a minimum
you pay whether you use it or not.

I think it's called a monthly standby charge.

Best,

Will

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

Sometimes, a 3-0 service has a monthly minimum charge that will blow

the hat clean off of one's head.

On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:26 AM, ad4hk2004 wrote:

Being that my Bridgeport mill is 1.5 HP, I use a rotary convertor

to

change the 220X1 to 220X3... Not perfect but it works...
I did consider asking Consumers Power Co. to give me a price for 3
phase to the shop... But getting underground power to my house
required my atty petitioning the court for a 'show cause' order -
insiders at the company tell me their field supervisor is still
smarting from the corporate VP giving him a public chewing out

over

that one - I suspect the bill would spin my hat...



denny

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd1@> wrote:

A 3 phase service is mighty fine to have if one can afford to

have it

put in. I've not checked on the price in a while, but back in

1985, a

200 amp 220 volt service ran around $2000 from the power company

for

the transformers, and the service entrance, meter base, etc was
extra.
I was having one put in at my machine shop building I had at the
time.
I wish I had the health back to do all that again. At the time I

had

an electric shop running, and a machine and assembly shop a

couple of

miles up the road. I used to design and build custom fab

machinery

for
the railroads. Sure is a good business to be in. Anyhow, 3 phase

can

sure make life a lot easier if you plan on running reverseable
motors,
and anything else that needs some umph behind it. One could do it

with
a pony motor, but I'm not sure how good that would work.

Back in the old days, and some do this now, is run a generator
(really
an alternator without the rectifier stack) in a mobile supplying

LV 3

phase to run a HV transformer. That get's you out of running an
inverter. A certain company down in Memphis, Tn used to supply a
mobile kW (1800 PEP out) with the generator that way. I here

about a

guy in Florida building these today, and was buying the

transformers

from Galaxy Transformer. I recon he's built a few with tubes with
handles. Of course you need enough engine to run it too.

Best,

Will


--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@>
wrote:

To achieve 1,5% ripple from a 6-pulse power supply of 5KV at 3A

you

will

need a capacitor of 0,32???F.
Without any cap ripple will be 4%.
You will not here any hum from a transmitter without capacitor

in

the

6-pulse capacitor when using sideband transmissions.
From a carrier you here little hum on zerobeat.

The formula to find C for the 3-phase bridge circuit is the same

as

for any

other circuit, just calculate C from XC by using 300Hz in the

formula.

How the transformer is connected does not matter, usually the

primary will

be delta for best efficiency and the secondary will be star

connected.

You will have 2 diodes per leg. The voltage across one winding

is

dc/sqrt6.

I my 7KV 4A CCS P/S I use UGE1112AY4 diodes by IXCYS, 3 per leg,

just scewed

one into the next.



The transformer secondary is 5KV +/-5%, +/-10% phase to phase,

or

2887V

across one winding.
I use 2???F 10KV for smoothing and a crowbar overload circuit
with it.

73
Peter


________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:

ham_amplifiers@...]

On Behalf Of pentalab

Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,
lets say around 5 kV DC potential, how much glitch C
is needed to achieve 1.5 percent ripple?

### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and
with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need any
C at all ! [3 phase]

### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input
filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It
would also highly depend on the load.

### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV
supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase....
so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you
find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested. Somebody
is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better
research it.

### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some
where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info.
Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta".....
and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set
up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec
winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage
per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me.
With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414
Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory]

Yahoo! Groups Links

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

Yahoo! Groups Links

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., Frank Goenninger <frgo@...>
wrote:

Am 04.10.2006 um 15:17 schrieb PA3DUV:

Euro 175.- to get concerted from single phase service to 3

phase

service in the Lowlands. For that money you'll get:

3 fuses
a new 3 phase digital power/kWh meter

3 x 35 amps @ 400 VAC ( 42 kW AC, gud for 25 kW RF output ) =

the

same monthly fee compared to single phase service.
Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV

Don't know if Peter already pointed out but in Germany 3 phase

mains

is standard for every house / building. The infrastructure is part

of

the standard installation. I do have 3 x 45 amps at 400 V AC as

the

mains entry into our house. No extra fees for 3 phase service or

its

installation.

A small plus in little Germany. But we have the paperworks no one
else in the world has to do...

#### 45 A per leg x 3 legs = 54 kva total. Now here's
the question. How many homes on one xfmr out in the street ??

### I'm assuming since ur ripple freq is 300 hz..... ur power
from the street is 50 hz ??

### ZL's tell me... trying to run a Drake L4B power supply on
50 hz cooks the plate xfmr. Anything designed for 60 hz....
when run on 50 hz... has to be severly de-rated.... including
Papst blowers/fans... xfmr's etc.

## In Japan... it appears they use 200/100 V @ 50 hz single
phase... per home.

### Here in NA... you pay through the nose to have 3 phase
power.... typ 208/120 v.... and only for business's, machine
shops, telco's, etc.

### a 42 suite typ condominium consists of 208 v/120v... 3 x
phase... and 1200 A fuse PER leg.[entire building] Each
suite only gets 208/120 V SINGLE phase.

## for the big power consumption..... we use 480 V , 3 phase
at some of our telco's. We buy the power at 12,500 V and
step it down to 480 v..[via a 3 phase 2500 kva xfmr,20,000+
lbs]..used for the +54 vdc 800A rectifiers [40 kw each... x 8
of em]. The +54 vdc is fed to 24 x 2500 A hour cells [each
550 lbs. wired in series with buss bars]..... which makes up just
one string. We then parallel 10 x such strings together.. [with
4 x 4" x 1/4" thick buss bars in parallel.

### I saw a piece of threaded rod fall from the ceiling into
this mess once yrs ago [it was hilti anchored, along with lots
more]... the rod actually went from a solid to a gas.... and
nobody saw it pass through the liquid stage either ! Sounded
like a 120 mm howitzer going off in an enclosed room.

## In some cases the power co has upgraded from 12.5 kv to 25
kv. In those cases... the power co used special pole pigs...
that dropped the 25 kv down to 12.5 kv..... we buy it at 12.5
kv..... then drop it down to 208/120 v..... via a 450 kva CCS
xfmr. [4000 lbs]

### For a back up gen set... it's a V-16...with a 2000 kva 3
phase 480v generator..... made by Stamford Co.... in Stamford
Conn. Pistons like paint cans.

### During the recent BPL debate... it was pointed out that in
some parts of Europe, as many as 700 residences were running from
one xfmr !!

### On my recent trip to Turkey for a month.... in most smaller
towns... I never saw ANY pole mounted xfmr's anywhere !! I did
see miles of aluminium 3 x phase running every where.... and what
appeared to be just 2 x hot legs per home on each drop wire....
and they got 220 V @ 50 hz.

### sri for the drivel......... later.. Jim VE7RF

73, Frank

Sorry,

Power in a 3-phase supply is:

P=sqrt3*U*I*cos phi
P=1,73*400*35=24220

Indeed, for 25KW out one needs 45KVA, but only in class B.
67% efficiency is a bit high in class AB, it will be around 63% minus loss
in the pi-network.
Some of the output in a GG amp is coming from the driver, so efficiency is
NOT= output*100%/input power...

73
Peter

________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...]
On Behalf Of pentalab

--- In ham_amplifiers@...
<mailto:ham_amplifiers%40yahoogroups.com> , "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@...>
wrote:

Hi Dick,

3x35A is a 230/400V 25KW inlet.
For 40KW 63A fuses are to be installed, mine are 80A

### whoa. 35 A x 400 V = 14 kw per phase. x 3 phases = 42
kva.

### To get 25 kw out [assuming 67 % eff on the lower bands]
25,000/ .67 = 37,323 watts of DC input. = 37.323 x 1.21 = 45.149
Kva.