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TL-922 tube filament voltage.
Hi All,
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I've appreciated all the info that I've gotten on the Kenwood TL-922A and I've ordered the relay switching board from Harbach.? While I'm in there, I'd like to address the filament voltage.? I've looked? for info on how I might do that, but I'm not finding what I want.? Is there an easy way to do this that has been done and I can get the docs on??? Any info would be appreciated.? BTW, I've had my electrical service here upgraded and my line voltage here measures around 250 VAC.? So that filament voltage SHOULD be addressed.
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Thanks!!
--
Kim Herron W8ZV
w8zv@... |
Updating a service really doesn’t raise the actual voltage coming into your house. ?The only thing upgrading does is increase the potential current available to you. ?With no load on your service the voltage should not have changed. ?I would make sure you use a good meter to be sure your voltage is actually as high as 250! ? ?Generally line voltage of around 244 or less does not require any intervention on filament voltage adjustment. ?Before I did anything to adjust filament voltage I would make definitely sure that at the pins the voltage was more than 5.3volts. ?You definitely do not want less than 5 volts. ?
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On Tuesday, December 17, 2024, 12:28 PM, Kim Herron <w8zv@...> wrote:
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Lou, Good point on the meter. In the past if you talk to any electrical company about voltage they'll ask you "what meter are you using"? Bob W4JFA On Tue, Dec 17, 2024 at 2:02?PM Louis Parascondola via <Gudguyham=[email protected]> wrote:
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开云体育Ohmite offers bolt down fractional value resistors in metal casings of 10 and 25 Watt values. For a single 3-500Z dropping 0.5 Volt at 15.5 Amp requires an 0.17 Ohm resistor and will dissipate 7.25 Watts of power.? Bolt the down under the chassis near the base of the tubes.? This will place the resistors in the cooling air blast for the tubes.? Use one resistor for each tube. ? I have two Dale 0.02 Ω 25 Watt sitting here in front of me that I ordered from Mouser.? I plan to use them in two amplifiers that have a single 3CX1500A7 tube in them.? I too have high mains voltages that I use a Fluke meter to read. ? 73, Dave, w6de ? From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Kim Herron via groups.io
Sent: 17 December, 2024 17:28 To: [email protected] Subject: [ham-amplifiers] TL-922 tube filament voltage. ? Hi All, ? I've appreciated all the info that I've gotten on the Kenwood TL-922A and I've ordered the relay switching board from Harbach.? While I'm in there, I'd like to address the filament voltage.? I've looked? for info on how I might do that, but I'm not finding what I want.? Is there an easy way to do this that has been done and I can get the docs on??? Any info would be appreciated.? BTW, I've had my electrical service here upgraded and my line voltage here measures around 250 VAC.? So that filament voltage SHOULD be addressed. ? Thanks!! -- Kim Herron W8ZV |
Thanks for the info Dale.?
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Upgrading the service to the house DID make a difference.? I went from 238 to 252.? It had to do with the replacement transformer and service conductors.
BTW, I use a Fluke 87-3, same as Consumers Power.? Using the dropping resistors should work.? I'll check the voltage at the tube socket pins to make sure I've got the right stuff.?
--
Kim Herron W8ZV
w8zv@... |
开云体育Not to belabor the point but it is wise to monitor you incoming voltage and note that at times it will change. I have quite a bit of classic equipment that was designed to run at 115~117VAC. I recently purchased a Heathkit IM-103 and calibrated it with my Fluke 85 III. What’s interesting to note is the incoming leg(s) is 113~117VAC during the weekdays and jumps up to 122VAC during the weekend. I’ve had incoming once at 135VAC. When lights started ‘burning out’ in succession, I checked the line and contacted the power company, (PPL). They confirmed what I was seeing and rectified the problem that evening. ± 5% is their usual tolerance from what the lineman told me when he did the repair. It was actually a capacitor bank that fed our line so I wasn’t the only one with the problem. ? Mod-U-Lator, Mike(y)/W3SLK ? ? ? ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Louis Parascondola via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2024 2:03 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ham-amplifiers] TL-922 tube filament voltage. ? Updating a service really doesn’t raise the actual voltage coming into your house. ?The only thing upgrading does is increase the potential current available to you. ?With no load on your service the voltage should not have changed. ?I would make sure you use a good meter to be sure your voltage is actually as high as 250! ? ?Generally line voltage of around 244 or less does not require any intervention on filament voltage adjustment. ?Before I did anything to adjust filament voltage I would make definitely sure that at the pins the voltage was more than 53volts. ?You definitely do not want less than 5 volts. ? ? On Tuesday, December 17, 2024, 12:28 PM, Kim Herron <w8zv@...> wrote:
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Yeah Mikey, I concur.? I used to install copiers (50 years ago) and I had to install buck/boost transformers in certain parts of Grand Rapids MI because the infrastructure was old and the voltages were either high or low, mostly low.? On one location, I found that I was working with 89 VAC at the wall.? The copier just wasn't about to work right.? It took TWO boost transformers to get it to work.? I was complaining to Consumers power here about low voltage here.? I've got two AC units and a 6 KW booster water heater for the dog grooming shop here that my wife runs.? When everything was running my line voltage was sagging to about 106 VAC.? Light load it would come back to 115 VAC.? So they did some maintenance.? I now have 125.5 to 126 VAC per leg.? Under full load during the summer it will drop to 123 per leg.? But I don't have the big? sag and AC compressors that won't start anymore.? My air compressor isn't blowing starting fuses either.
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I will say that I HAD to prove to Consumers that I was having an issue.? Pictures of the Fluke stuck in the wall was the trick.
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Just came back in from the radio shop and did my daily check of the wall voltage.? 124.8 VAC
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Kim Herron W8ZV
w8zv@... |
At 252 I might be concerned about a bunch of things in your house.
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On Tuesday, December 17, 2024, 3:10 PM, Kim Herron <w8zv@...> wrote:
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开云体育Additional comments and another choice for your TL922 3-500Z filaments. ? I just downloaded and examined the TL-922 amplifier service manual.? I traced the input power circuit and the TL922 doesn’t have any surge protection on the input circuit.? Instead of using fixed value resistors in your filament circuit you might choose to use Power NTC Thermistors (NTC = Negative Temperature Coefficient).? These start with higher resistance and when hot reduce to lower resistance. E.g., for a single 3-500Z two 2 Ω NTC resistors in parallel would offer 1 Ω at power on and drop to 0.018 Ω after 130 seconds.? 10 Watts dissipation with two in parallel with a Bournes BN-LG25Y2R0Mx. A parallel pair of these for a single 3-500Z would meet your needs for a 0.5 Volt drop and offer inrush protection—but require approximately two minutes to reach operating temperature.
? I just measured my 240 mains voltage and the line voltage is now at 240 Volts.? I then recalled that when I called my Electric utility (PG&E) and they came and measured my mains voltage it was 250 Volts.? The service man said they increase the mains voltage in the summer time to better handle the Air Conditioning load.? Not good,? I may have to rethink the values of the resistors I put into my 3CX1500A7 amplifiers.? Don’t target the exact 5 Volts but straddle the +/- tolerance limits. So, the filament voltage to ensure the summer doesn’t go to high and the winter voltage doesn’t fall to low.? I have some notes about the summer line and filament voltages and I’ll have to now take some notes about the winter mains and filament voltages.? I’m not going to assume it is a linear drop across the amplifier circuitry for the filament voltage.? One of the amps is an Alpha 9500 with so called automatic line voltage selection [whose upper limit seems to be 240 volts] and the other amp is a Henry 3002A 2 Meter amplifier. 73, Dave, w6de ? From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave w6de via groups.io
Sent: 17 December, 2024 20:02 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ham-amplifiers] TL-922 tube filament voltage. ? Ohmite offers bolt down fractional value resistors in metal casings of 10 and 25 Watt values. For a single 3-500Z dropping 0.5 Volt at 15.5 Amp requires an 0.17 Ohm resistor and will dissipate 7.25 Watts of power.? Bolt the down under the chassis near the base of the tubes.? This will place the resistors in the cooling air blast for the tubes.? Use one resistor for each tube. ? I have two Dale 0.02 Ω 25 Watt sitting here in front of me that I ordered from Mouser.? I plan to use them in two amplifiers that have a single 3CX1500A7 tube in them.? I too have high mains voltages that I use a Fluke meter to read. ? 73, Dave, w6de ? From:
[email protected]
<[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Kim Herron via groups.io ? Hi All, ? I've appreciated all the info that I've gotten on the Kenwood TL-922A and I've ordered the relay switching board from Harbach.? While I'm in there, I'd like to address the filament voltage.? I've looked? for info on how I might do that, but I'm not finding what I want.? Is there an easy way to do this that has been done and I can get the docs on??? Any info would be appreciated.? BTW, I've had my electrical service here upgraded and my line voltage here measures around 250 VAC.? So that filament voltage SHOULD be addressed. ? Thanks!! -- Kim Herron W8ZV |
Right, the guy said he used a Flike. ?With line voltage at 252 I’d be concerned about lots of things in my house. ?I’m lucky, I have a transformer for my house just for me!!
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On Tuesday, December 17, 2024, 2:34 PM, Bob via groups.io <W4JFABob@...> wrote:
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Lou, That's pretty lucky. I should check mine. The transformer for my house is on the pole at the street in front of my house ,about 100 feet away from the house. Bob W4JFA On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 5:22?AM Louis Parascondola via <Gudguyham=[email protected]> wrote:
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That sounds like its a bit high until you figure that lots of our gear was designed around 117 volts nominal +/- 10 percent.? At + 10 percent 129 VAC COULD be considered within spec.? My voltage here varies 2 to 3 volts and the higher voltage shows up with no or light load.? The guys at Consumers Power tell me that they shoot for 123 to 125 VAC.? That would make a single phase service to a house between 246 to 250.? I've never lost anything here to overvoltage.? I have had things go away because of momentary on and off situations caused by trees in the lines and blowing line fuses.? Consumers paid for a new washer once due to that.?
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Back to this original discussion, i.e. 5 volt filaments on 3-500 tubes:? In my mind it would've made more sense to have adjustable primary taps on the transformer so you get closer to the 5 volts.? But in engineering for the end user, everything is a trade-off.?
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Kim Herron W8ZV
w8zv@... |
Hi,
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The measured AC voltage of the 3-500Z tubes in the TL-922A as measured at the tube pins was a bit high in my amplifier, about 5.4 volts. Adding a CL-80 current limiter in series with each of the primary 0 volt lead of the filament transformer dropped the voltage to 5.1 volts in my amplifier. A side benefit is that the startup peak current is limited, helping to extend tube life. Mount the CL-80 away from nearby components as they get hot. The CL-80 is available from RF Parts or eBay.
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I have some other TL-922 mods on my web site, .
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73,
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Jack, WB8BFS
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开云体育The meter one uses for AC mains or any AC measurements should be a TRUE RMS reading meter to be accurate.? ? Many of the higher quality Fluke ?meters (read higher priced ones) are True RMS reading AC meters but not all Flukes are. ? There are other brands that are as well.? If they are the spec will say so. ? 73, ? Walter ? ? ? From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bob via groups.io
Sent: 18 December, 2024 8:10 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ham-amplifiers] TL-922 tube filament voltage. ? Lou, That's pretty lucky. I should check mine. The transformer for my house is on the pole at the street in front of my house ,about 100 feet away from the house. Bob W4JFA ? On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 5:22?AM Louis Parascondola via <Gudguyham=[email protected]> wrote:
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Kim Herron
Fluke 87's and 88's fall in to that class. Kim Herron W8ZV kim.herron@... 1-616-677-3706
On Wednesday, December 18, 2024 at 04:28:48 PM EST, Walter via groups.io <kr4hv@...> wrote:
The meter one uses for AC mains or any AC measurements should be a TRUE RMS reading meter to be accurate.? ? Many of the higher quality Fluke ?meters (read higher priced ones) are True RMS reading AC meters but not all Flukes are. ? There are other brands that are as well.? If they are the spec will say so. ? 73, ? Walter ? ? ? From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bob via groups.io
Sent: 18 December, 2024 8:10 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ham-amplifiers] TL-922 tube filament voltage. ? Lou, That's pretty lucky. I should check mine. The transformer for my house is on the pole at the street in front of my house ,about 100 feet away from the house. Bob W4JFA ? On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 5:22?AM Louis Parascondola via <Gudguyham=[email protected]> wrote:
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You can buy many decent RMS multimeters like the Brymen BM857 that is a fully safety rated and protected meter that is much cheaper than the Fluke. There are others.? There is a Multimeter comparison Spreadsheet on the EEVBlog? forum.
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Fluke is manufacturing many of its products in China and sometimes even buying a genuine Fluke product you never be sure if you getting crap from China, its a crap shoot buying Fluke products with the many fake "from same factory" products on the market. now.? In some tests that I have seen even their fuses are crap and not the proper? multimeter rated fuses that are made in Europe. Sad to see such a good brand name going "cheap made in china"
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Henry |
开云体育Before retiring and while still active in the field, precision D.M.M.’s were important, not in themselves, per se, but as a reference point in any possible report ensuing from having to have employed a meter at all. ? Being able to say ” “a Fluke 89-4” multimeter confirmed the proper voltage,”” would immediately be acceptable as an observation deemed correct. ? So there in and there out different Fluke meters were supplied to people doing these reports, and they were deemed calibrated when received, but no Proof of Performance quality checks were ever specified to even see if those were correct… ? As the years wore by the collection of those ubiquitous yellow rubber handhelds accumulated. I remember the last time I sent in the ’89 to the factory, only to be told:
? Well, the battery holders were turning to cheese and in order to get the meter to come up it was necessary to jury-rig a connection between the AA cell compartment and the meter, proper. ? Then, the AA battery holder hardware turned to cheese on the ‘289, and Lo! and Behold!? “ Fugeddaboudit.” There are no parts to fix it. ? There are other meters, newer models, and they seem to be working, and when setting up a bench to observe a “standard,” the readings are all over the place. Fluke. Thousands of dollars to buy and then, when the rubber needs to meet the road, they can no longer be trusted. ? A case-in-point:? Recently an experiment regarding the various measurements of signals and amplitudes came up. Both the ’89 and the ‘289 can be configured for dBm, and even the reference load values adjusted for a wide range of activity, like 50 or 300 or 600 ohms. ? Even with a new set of AA cells, and a proper warmup, using the meters to show what the new bench supply says is “something” in the 50 ohm dBm Land, the readings are different. Not too, too different, but still not right on the money as Fluke would have been relied upon to produce. ? So yes, there are a new set of DMM’s coming out that are Orders of Magnitude cheaper than new Flukes, and best, is that many of them come with certificates of calibration right in the box. ? Forums like the eev blog compare quality and consistency to test gear day after day. They are the first to raise a ruckus when something is squirrely. ? Hal Mandel W4HBM |