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Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
Tony King - W4ZT
That's an excellent idea Bill. I will have to try that the next time I test GS-35B's. Don't know if I will be able to see much with the ceramic but I would bet it would be easy to see with glass tubes. Maybe someone else could report on that one. One of these new small space age magnets should produce enough magnetic field. Stuck on the end of a large tywrap should make it safe enough.
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73, Tony W4ZT Bill Turner wrote: ORIGINAL MESSAGE: |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
Bill Turner
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 17:59:19 -0700, R L Measures <r@...> wrote: They can't reverse direction quick enough?------------ REPLY FOLLOWS ------------ Perhaps so, but if they can accelerate to a certain speed in the half inch or so between cathode and anode, why could they not decelerate an equal amount a half inch after passing the anode? They would be stopped in mid-space and immediately return to the anode like good little electrons should. :-) Or maybe the glass is too close to the anode so there is no time for reversal before impacting the glass? Bill, W6WRT |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
Bill Turner
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 13:38:32 -0400, Tony King - W4ZT <w4zt-060920@...> wrote: We had a discussion about fluorescence in ceramic tubes some time back------------ REPLY FOLLOWS ------------ One way to prove it once and for all would be to try to deflect the beam with a magnet. Electrons would be deflected, x-rays would not. Sound reasonable? Bill, W6WRT |
Re: Jumbo sized lytic stack for HV supplies ! Oil cap warning. DIODES
FRANCIS CARCIA
I use HN connectors for high voltage and use RG213 as a conductor. the chassis side I found a mate with a long leakage path. wa1gfz
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pentalab wrote:
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Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
On Sep 24, 2006, at 10:25 AM, Bill Turner wrote:
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:They can't reverse direction quick enough? R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@... |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
craxd
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:
the raysinside of the glass when operating. I was told it was "soft" x- glass.caused by electrons impacting the anode and then striking the I've seen this in sweep tubes also many times. The glass had a blue glow in places where there were holes open in the anode. I think Rich is correct on this that some electrons escape, and strike the glass. However, if the electron is out there at the glass, how does it get replaced back into the cathode? X-rays are more like >10,000v. fall back to their normal orbit and emit visible photons.Whether that is the real cause or not, I've seen it many times.Agreed. There are several different fluxing agents used in glass R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734Best, Will |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
Peter Voelpel
Gettering of those and similar tubes is done by the anode coating.
One reason they have to be driven red, which is about 800¡ãC 73 Peter ________________________________ Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc ! Did you ever get to speak to anyone at Eimac about where the getters were at in a 3-500Z? That's a question I'd say a few of us would like to find out about as I think there is some erroneous info floating around on the net about it. One said it was the anode itself, but it doesn't get hot enough in my opinion to do it, and would actually have relaeased hydrogen gas if, a certain gettering material were applied to it. Any thoughts on this? |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
craxd
Jim,
Did you ever get to speak to anyone at Eimac about where the getters were at in a 3-500Z? That's a question I'd say a few of us would like to find out about as I think there is some erroneous info floating around on the net about it. One said it was the anode itself, but it doesn't get hot enough in my opinion to do it, and would actually have relaeased hydrogen gas if, a certain gettering material were applied to it. Any thoughts on this? 73, Will --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "pentalab" <jim.thomson@...> wrote:
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Re: How to manage Filament Voltage on a 3000/6000/10,000A7 triode or tetrode
Peter Voelpel
Hi Jim,
I understand that tube life is dependend on their vacuum and on the emission from the cathode such that material of it disappears until worn, and then the tube is probably send in for a new coating. How does ?the clock tick? when just the heater is lit and no current flows? 73, Peter ________________________________ From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of pentalab Always remember.... when the fil is lit...'the clock is ticking'. |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
Tony King - W4ZT
Bill Turner wrote:
<snip> Wouldn't electrons which "miss" the anode be immediately attractedThey're moving too fast to circle back in that distance. We had a discussion about fluorescence in ceramic tubes some time back and I posted a few pictures of GS-35B's glowing in the dark <>. The best explanation was electron bombardment as opposed to soft X-rays. Just not enough voltage to accelerate the electrons enough to generate the X-rays. Most of the pictures were taken with less than 2500 Volts on the anode. 73, Tony W4ZT |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
Bill Turner
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 10:12:39 -0700, R L Measures <r@...> wrote: I have seen this on 807s running at 750v with this glow on Tx. Soft------------ REPLY FOLLOWS ------------ Wouldn't electrons which "miss" the anode be immediately attracted back to the outside of the anode? Why would they continue out to the glass instead of circling back? Some interesting physics here. Bill, W6WRT |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
On Sep 24, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Bill Turner wrote:
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:I have seen this on 807s running at 750v with this glow on Tx. Soft X-rays are more like >10,000v. As I see it, the effect is caused by electrons from the cathode missing the anode, striking the glass, and bumping electrons in the fluxing agent up an a higher orbit When the electrons slow down they fall back to their normal orbit and emit visible photons. Whether that is the real cause or not, I've seen it many times.Agreed. There are several different fluxing agents used in glass recipes. What's to worry about?, it's done. R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@... |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
On Sep 24, 2006, at 5:05 AM, pentalab wrote:
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:If this is the case, why not use the tubes as they are being gettered? This has always been the way that I have done it.drive is applied? ... or when both are applied? Yes### Are u talking about 3-500Z's and 4-1000's ???? [glassANY andI've fired up several gassy tubes, the insides glowed blue, but I have had new 4-1000's that glowed blue. It wasI too have see fluorescing glass, and it's definitely different than gas fluorescing. Possible, but I have never found an arc mark in a kaput autopsied tube. Indicated by a blue glow inside the vacuum. Leaky seal. I've seen that one. I saved a 4E27 with gas to light up for the young whippersnappers. They hadNo, but the chimney on my 8170 amplifier was opaque. Kinda tough to see..with the chimney on.A lexan window would be easy to retrofit in a fiberglas-epoxy chimney. I have run into a number of amateur radio dudes who advise something that sounds semi-plausible, but instead of being based in science, it turns out to be an artifice for promoting his guru status by giving the appearance of having esoteric knowledge. Seal integrity and time spent pumping them down would seem to be most important. I use step-starting because it's easier on Everything - and 1 to 2 seconds is no biggie. I have probably never run filaments for more than a minute before firing up a new 3-500Z or 8170. later R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@... |
Re: Silicone Rubber
Bill Turner
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:18:57 -0000, "pentalab" <jim.thomson@...> wrote: I have been using Belden 10 KV test prod wire for the last------------ REPLY FOLLOWS ------------ A good source of HV wire is West Marine. They have a 40 kv marine grade wire. They sell it by the foot so you buy only what you need. Large center conductor, very strong, reasonably flexible. Working great here. Bill, W6WRT |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
Bill Turner
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:05:38 -0000, "pentalab" <jim.thomson@...> wrote: ### Are u talking about 3-500Z's and 4-1000's ???? [glass------------ REPLY FOLLOWS ------------ I don't think this is a defect. Many tubes show a fluorescence on the inside of the glass when operating. I was told it was "soft" x-rays caused by electrons impacting the anode and then striking the glass. Whether that is the real cause or not, I've seen it many times. Nothing to worry about. The tubes that do not fluoresce probably have a different mix of compounds or elements in the glass. This should not be confused with a blue glow between the elements. That is gas and is something to worry about. Bill, W6WRT |
Re: Jumbo sized lytic stack for HV supplies ! Oil cap warning. DIODES
Frank Goenninger
Am 24.09.2006 um 10:47 schrieb pentalab:
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., Frank Goenninger <frgo@...>;-) It did help. All of them say "I'm the best". That's why I kept asking here. Tnx for sharing your experience! 73, Frank DG1SBG |
Re: How to Getter a 3CX-3000A7 / 6000 / 10,000 , etc !
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:
drive is applied? ... or when both are applied? ### getter's [per Eimac and Svetlana] are ALWAYS working... as long as the fil is lit. HV + drive are not part of the overall process. none of them arced to the grid.ANY andI've fired up several gassy tubes, the insides glowed blue, but ### Are u talking about 3-500Z's and 4-1000's ???? [glass tubes] I have had new 4-1000's that glowed blue. It was not gas either.... it was an anomoly/defect in the glass....per Eimac. The glass would glow blue.... only when drive applied. ### Then I have also seen 4-1000's that glowed blue INSIDE the anode/screen/grid compartment..... dunno if that was with drive applied or not...... that was too long ago. ### With a big ceramic triode/terode.... I highly suspect... If it's gassy... and BOTH HV and drive are applied.... arcs MIGHT occur between anode to screen... or anode to grid. ### If the vac isn't good and hard in the 1st place.... that could easily create even more problems. ### I had several 4-1000's yrs ago... that looked like a smoke bomb going off inside.... when the fil V was applied!! They had either a lousy vac.... or..'had gone to air'. ### did u ever see a blue glow inside the ceramic portion of a metal tube ?? Kinda tough to see..with the chimney on. ### All I was trying to get at was.... if 16 guys say to use 48 hrs to getter a new/rebuilt tube.... and anything less is gonna be a problem... cuz they have tried many diff time frames... who am I to argue? ### Svetlana claims their tubes are proccesed at a higher temp than Eimac [during the construction of the tube]... one would think the Svetlana tubes would have less of a 'gas' problem than an Eimac ? ### The Svetlana tubes all use a 'spiral mesh fil' and where all the mesh criss crosses... they are welded. ... so u don't wanna slam the fil V on.. it can buckle the mesh fil sideways..esp with over rated fil xfmrs [eg: I use a 80 A rated fil xfmr on my 50 A rated 3000A7]......... another reason to step start em. ## I don't have the time or patience to inadvertantly destroy expensive new/rebuilt tubes. Later... Jim VE7RF R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 |
Re: Jumbo sized lytic stack for HV supplies ! Oil cap warning. DIODES
PA3DUV
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýYep, it does, I just
tried it.
On the crimp version one has to remove the outside
plastic?insulation in order to crimp it.
?
Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV
?
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Re: Jumbo sized lytic stack for HV supplies ! Oil cap warning. DIODES
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., PA3DUV <pa3duv@...> wrote:
### If that's the case... then it will also accept Teflon RG- 393 coax.... which is a bit smaller OD than 8-U/213-U [.390" OD for 393 coax.... vs .405" OD for 8-U /213-U Jim VE7RF Actually the H+S SHV is the same type as the Kings HT connectors,a bit flimsy. I just browsed the site. (ThanksGreg!) These look better to me, are mechanical sound, accept 11/12 mmcoax as well and can be supplied with nice bend restrictors.
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How to manage Filament Voltage on a 3000/6000/10,000A7 triode or tetrode
pentalab
Gents
After reading the material from Both Eimac and Svetlana... [extending tube life via proper fil v management] a few yrs back... I thought I would give it a try. At my former workshop location... the power line regulation was terrible.... so I researched SOLA constant volatge xfmr's... and other ferroresonant xfmrs. I managed to obtain a used SOLA 750 VA unit that's kinda unique. It was not only regulated.... it was also 'harmonically neutralized'.[has a pair of small oil caps in it]. It also had 3 sets of primary taps.... for 120 vac... 208 vac... and 240 vac......slick. Good so far. The output of this thing is a constant 236/118 Vac [new ones are all 240 vac, mine's an old one]. It's 236 vac output... with a center tapped sec. The manual stated.. " all 3 x loads... leg 1 to neutral... leg 2 to neutral... and across the 2 x hot legs... when added up.... can't exceed 750 VA. Good so far. These things will handle a HUGE +/- voltage range on any of the 3 pri taps.... and still output a constant 236/118 vac. I tested it by wiring the pri for the 120 vac tap.... then used a 0-132 vac variac... with the variac's OUTPUT feeding the INPUT of the SOLA. With the variac set below 120 vac... the sola's output V was slightly higher than 236/118 vac. With the variac set HIGHER than 120 Vac..... the OUTPUT of the sola dropped a tiny bit below 236/118 vac. Even with the variac set as low as 50 vac... the sola still put out 238 vac. The constant output of the Sola is normally fed to the INPUT of a small 5 A variac [240/120, depending on the fil xfmr used]. The now CONSTANT Voltage output of the variac, is of course fed to the primary of the Dahl fil xfmr! Install a new 115 vac HOUR meter between one hot leg of SOLA and center tap of the Sola. [output of sola] I used either 1 or 2.5 mh rf chokes [100ma rated is plenty] , and placed one per leg.. at the socket. Other ends are fed to both a 0-10 vac panel meter and a pair of banana jacks [stuff ur Fluke 87-A true rms meter in there]. Both the panel meter and the banana jacks have a 1 k resistor in each leg + .01 uf bypass caps. The resistor's will limit the current to a safe level if anything shorts out... and won't affect ur reading's. We also use a simple DPDT toggle.... to switch the metering from the socket.. to the Fil xfmr Secondary. Reason is... so we can measure the V drop in ALL the wiring, lugs, any cross connects.. and the 80 A bifilar choke . You will typ see between .3v and .4v for the v drop. Most of that is coming from the bifilar. The point here is.. to get say 7.0 v at the socket.... ur gonna need 7.3 to 7.4 v at the xfmr secondary. Dahl fil xfmrs [and all other's] rate their fil xfmrs UNDER FULL LOAD. Typ no load on a fil xfmr is usually 10% higher. Factor this in, in any GG linear... that uses a high current Bifilar. Now Rich will tell you to float the xfmr.. and use a tiny bifilar in the 240 vac primary... and this works good...BUT... the floated xfmr MUST be installed in the RF deck.. below the chassis. That just adds another 23 lbs to the RF deck... tipping the scale... and making it very difficult for one person to get the RF deck in and out of the rack. I always use a high current Bifilar [80 A or less]... and mount the 66lb Sola, 5 A Variac, 23 lb fil Xfmr.... in the next shelf below the RF deck. Short, flexible heavy gauge pair of wires interconnect the two. [typ 2 ga] I also install a 25 ohm 100-150 w wire wound /metal finned resistor in one leg of the Dahl fil xfmr primary.... and also a 0-30 second... 8 pin octal time delay relay is used to shunt out this same resistor [ after 5-10 seconds] With a Dahl 240 vac primary on the fil xfmr.... it works out that the Fil V is exactly 75% of rated V ..[until the 25 ohm resistor is shunted] I include the fil step start so I can leave the variac alone. Also... in the event of a commercial AC power failure... the step start sequence just sequences again [when power comes back on]. If You are gonna use the variac as a 'step start'.. u have to remember to turn it DOWN after you shut off the amp. [also during a power failure] Now we can finally 'manage the fil V for extended tube life'. Both Svetlana and Eimac state that on these big metal tubes... [THORIATED TUNGSTEN FILS ONLY].... that fil emmission INCREASES in the 1st 150-200 hrs !! [new or rebuilt tube] . After gettering the tube for the 1st 48 hrs [at rated fil V measured at the socket, NO HV]... one can now fire up the HV ..and apply drive. Eimac and Svetlana state.. after 150-200 hrs [I use the 200 hr number], fil V can be REDUCED. Here's what I did. After the 200 hrs is up on the hr meter...... while pulse tuning the linear [amp running full bore, perhaps a BIT more than full bore] .. reduce the fil voltage, by turning down the variac... till PEP power output JUST starts to DROP !! THEN increase it a tiny bit... like .1 to .2 V. Now my buddy with the new Svetlana 3CX-6000A7 has just done this... and his fil V [measured at the socket] is now sitting at 6.0 volts !! [The rated fil V for a 6000 is 7.0 volts] Fil V is checked once in a while... and the idea here is... IF you see that the emmision has dropped off at all... you increase the fil V until power output is back up. IE: tweak the variac, until PEP power output is just on the 'hairy edge'... then increase the fil v another .1 to .2 v. Follow the above procedure... and you will easily get 35,000 hours from the tube !! [4 yrs in a 24/7 situation]. In a 'typ' 6 hrs per day scenario... that equates to 16 yrs !!!! Once the emmision is down, such that you have to increase the fil V ABOVE the tube's nominal rated fil V..... then you have 2 x option's. Either crank the variac UP, so fil V is now above rated fil V [never go more than + 5%] OR send it back for a rebuild. Both Eimac and Svetlana say to just send it back for a rebuild. I'm inclined to partially agree.. since once you have the fil V ABOVE rated fil V.... tube life will drop... FAST. As you can see, I and other's..take this .. 'filament management for longer tube life' very seriously.... ditto with the fil step start / commercial power failure scenario. One other important thing...when finished for the night [or day]... after turning OFF the fil... ALWAYS let the blower run for a good 10-20 mins. We use a blower.. 'over run' circuit.....consists of yet another Timer module... "delay on OFF" type. These are usually 11 pin octal types. Always remember.... when the fil is lit...'the clock is ticking'. Later........ Jim VE7RF |
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