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Re: AC HiPot tester question

 

On Nov 19, 2006, at 2:59 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

...
RICH SEZ.... A 20kV rated C to block 7000V DC sounds like over-
engineering since the actual AC potential across the blocker is
minimal.

#### Rich... Jenning's engineers tell me when using either fixed
glass/ceramic vac cap as a PLATE Blocker.... MIN V rating of the
FIXED vac cap has to be a MINIMUM of 3 X No load plate V......
other wise u get "whisker's" growing on the OFC plates on the
cap..... which will REDUCE the caps V rating.
So why does the statement I quoted in the Jennings catalog on p.4 about DC operation state otherwise?

### Ur gonna get "whisker's" anyway in plate block service for
a fixed vac cap.... so the 20 kv cap... will actually be over
time... a lot lower than 20 kv. IF u Hi-pot test a fixed vac cap
that has been used for plate block service.... u will see it no
longer hi pot tests to 20+ kv any more.

### other than 11m ops... I never see fixed vac caps used as plate
blockers.
I do, Jim. Even 500pF is plenty for a DC blocker at 1.8MHz (XC = 190- ohms) in typical amplifiers since RL is in the kilo-ohms range.
11m ops don't need much C for 11m... 100-250 pf max
is what they typ use. Their requirements are for a plate block cap
that handles LOTS of RF... esp for 4x20's, etc.
Tom Rauch apparently knows a Ham who mistakenly used a 100pF DC blocker in a homebrew amplifier. The amplifier produced the expected output from 1.8 to 28 MHz. Sometime later, when a friend was being shown the amplifier, he noticed that there were only twp zeros after the 1 on the blocker cap. When a 1000pF cap was substituted for the 100pF cap, the output did not increase although the tuning changed slightly on the 1.8MHz band.
...
R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org
Re: AC HiPot tester question

pentalab
 

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:


On Nov 18, 2006, at 7:29 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...>
wrote:


On Nov 18, 2006, at 1:42 AM, pentalab wrote:
### Jenning's told me, IF you are going to use.. say
a FIXED vac cap... as a PLATE BLOCK CAP [don't laff... LOADS
of
11m QRO amps use fixed ceramic/glass vac caps as plate
blockers... mounted vertical... connected with a special
clamp,
to
the center anode typ .82" solid pin] that the vac cap has to
be
DE-RATED by 60% for V. IE: For an amp with say 7 kv no load
HV supply.... use a min of a 20 kv test rated vac cap.
RICH SEZ... A 15kV - tested Tune-C would do the job - provided
that
the DC blocker cap was ahead of the Tune-C. With a 7000V anode
supply, and a g-g triode, the AC anode potential would be c. +/¨C
6700V-peak. Since the RF rating of a vacuumis 60% of it's DC
rating, or 9000V in this case, a 15kV cap would do the job. -
note - The "Plywood Box" amplifier used a 15kV tested Tune-C and
a
9000V NL anode supply. The Tune C did not arc.

### Rich, when are u gonna read the posts more carefully ???????
RICH SEZ ...Sorry.
We are talking about using a FIXED vac cap.... AS A PLATE
BLOCKER !!!!!!!!!!
RICH SEZ.... A 20kV rated C to block 7000V DC sounds like over-
engineering since the actual AC potential across the blocker is
minimal.

#### Rich... Jenning's engineers tell me when using either fixed
glass/ceramic vac cap as a PLATE Blocker.... MIN V rating of the
FIXED vac cap has to be a MINIMUM of 3 X No load plate V......
other wise u get "whisker's" growing on the OFC plates on the
cap..... which will REDUCE the caps V rating.

### Ur gonna get "whisker's" anyway in plate block service for
a fixed vac cap.... so the 20 kv cap... will actually be over
time... a lot lower than 20 kv. IF u Hi-pot test a fixed vac cap
that has been used for plate block service.... u will see it no
longer hi pot tests to 20+ kv any more.

### other than 11m ops... I never see fixed vac caps used as plate
blockers. 11m ops don't need much C for 11m... 100-250 pf max
is what they typ use. Their requirements are for a plate block cap
that handles LOTS of RF... esp for 4x20's, etc.

Later... Jim VE7RF
R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org
Re: AC HiPot tester question

pentalab
 

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@...>
wrote:

Jim,

Do you think there is any difference in the voltage capacity of
fixed or variable vacuums caps by Jennings specified for the SAME
DC voltage?

73
Peter
### No.

### The point Jennings was making...was IF using a fixed vac cap
as as DC BLOCKING cap.... the vac cap will have HV DC on one side
of it all the time.... and the vac cap will "grow whiskers" on
it's OFC copper plates.... leading to v break down. That's why
Jenning's sez to size the vac cap to a min of 3 x normal no
load plate V.

### Me, I just use normal HEC HT-57's.... and HT-59's. I also
have looked at Draloric's and similar HEC block caps... these
ones look like aprx 2000 pf @ 10 kv, 60 A CCS @ 32 mhz....
and are aprx 3-5" diam.

### Why 11m ops want to use fixed glass/ceramic vac caps for
plate block caps is beyond me. They would handle bags of RF
current though. Probably for big amps. However... 8 x 200 pf HT-
57's will handle 104 A. 4 x 500 pf HT-59's will handle 92 A.

later... Jim VE7RF


________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@...
[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...]
On Behalf Of pentalab

RICH SEZ... A 15kV - tested Tune-C would do the job - provided
that
the DC blocker cap was ahead of the Tune-C. With a 7000V anode
supply, and a g-g triode, the AC anode potential would be c. +/-
6700V-peak. Since the RF rating of a vacuumis 60% of it's DC
rating, or 9000V in this case, a 15kV cap would do the job. -
note - The "Plywood Box" amplifier used a 15kV tested Tune-C and a
9000V NL anode supply. The Tune C did not arc.

### Rich, when are u gonna read the posts more carefully ???????
We are talking about using a FIXED vac cap.... AS A PLATE
BLOCKER !!!!!!!!!!
Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

Robert B. Bonner
 

Hal I don't take everything back.

We've been talking residential services here not commercial.

The actual current ampacity for 2/0 copper is 190 amps but it is allowed to
be fused to 200 for Residential Service Feeds only in many cities.

2/0 copper is acceptable in way over 1/2 of the cities in the country for
feeding a 200 amp RESIDENTIAL SERVICE. In the other half they require 3/0.
You must check your locality when pulling a 200 amp service. They operate
in the 5% grey area.

3/0 copper is required in commercial services.

Sioux Falls, SD is one of those towns where 2/0 copper is acceptable for
service feeds. Minneapolis where I worked as an electrician in the mid 80's
was another. Do not confuse COMMERCIAL SERVICES with Residential
Services...

It's like comparing Apples and Oranges can't be done.

So what do we have here? We have the NEC and most cities are dead locked on
the code by legislation. Others fly by the seat of their pants in other
areas.

What I don't like is here while we can pull 2/0 when we change out a service
we are required by city ordinance to UPDATE our houses to the current code
everywhere else. This means ARC FAULT circuits in the bedrooms (which I
haven't done yet) and Ground Fault breakers or outlets in the kitchens,
laundry and bathrooms.


This house of mine was built in 1962 with a 60 amp service. Many of the
rooms just had barely 2 outlets. Fortunately the past owner updated to a 20
circuit 100 A panel in 1972 and added the required circuits in the kitchen
and baths.

The first thing I did, like the first week was rehung a new 30 circuit 100
amp panel so I could even hook up some radio without blinking every light in
the place.

I've since installed a 200 Amp service panel with 40 circuits (5 - 30 amp
220's to the radio room, plus a 30 amp 120 that feeds the 24 outlets in the
radio console)

The basement is wired to the max all the way to code and broken up nicely.
I think I have 4-5 circuits left in that panel.

The garage has a 100 Amp sub panel with the hot tub 50 ground fault sub
panel off of it, the RV 50 amp ground fault circuit, lighting, garage power,
a 30 amp garage 220 incase I need to test an amp or something, 2 - 20 amp
each side of the garage door block heater plugins for the diesel truck,
etc.. All ground fault where outlets are, plus a panel outlet.

OH yeah, the Meter Sequence here needs to be a METER MAIN, where the actual
main breakers are in the meter box. This is because it is 20 feet through
an addition before my main panel in the basement.

That meter main has room for 8 - 220 breakers.

I figure I will light up the yard from there TIM ALLEN with his Christmas
Lights.

If I ever do build that 30 x 40 garage I will probably put in a 400 amp
panel out there and sub feed the house. That 200 Amp service is pretty
busy.

Convenience is nice, but if I cranked up everything here I would have to
call the POWER COMPANY and tell them to pull the BORON RODS out of the
reactor another inch...

BOB DD

-----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...]
On Behalf Of hbmandel
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 7:32 PM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical
codes, etc.

Size 3/0 AWG wire is the correct guage to use for 200 ampere service,
not 2/0 AWG.

In any circumstance the wire diameter needs to be sized to the
breaker protecting it.

In a dead short situation you will want the breaker opening, even if
it is rated at 125 to 150 percent tripping, well before the wire
heats up to the point where the insulation melts and possibly catches
fire or releases poisonous gases.

The only point where the a.c. electrical ground is bonded to the
neutral should be in the main distribution panel and not in any sub
panel or appliance.

In commercial 200 amp single-phase, three wire installations the size
of the a.c.e.g. is 2AWG while the current-carrying conductors are 3/0
AWG. This is because the a.c.e.g. is a fault drain and not a current-
carrying conductor, but in D.C., everything changes, and that is a
topic for a separate discussion.

Lastly, in amateur appliances such as medium power transmitting
equipment, the connection to the frame of the equipment, e.g., the
frame ground or RF static drain, should be of the heaviest guage
affordable, and this conductor needs to be bonded to all the other
a.c.e.g and static grounds, ground rods, external ground ring,
interior halo, etc.

Hal Mandel
W4HBM





Yahoo! Groups Links
FW: Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

Rich & DJ
 

Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels...
Electrical codes, etc.

The power company is the other side of the world.
I take everything I say back. I'm understanding what you have setup
better understood. I had the same thing at my farm.
Is the Disconnect on the pole fused or just a disconnect? The wire
going to the house and garage/barn are just fine. The disconnect has
400amp fuses , I could change to 200amp fuses , I would have to have the
heat on in the house , the stove cooking and strike up the welder in the
barn to over load 200amp fuses
The power feeding your house is just power company (even if you supplied
it) wiring. This is just fine as long at it doesn't go more than 5
feet inside your house before hitting the breakers. It doesn't need to
be fused as it is service wiring. It comes right up into the 200amp
breaker , less than 5 feet inside

Sorry for blasting off the first post. It was the first thing I did
this AM, got up at 10:15. I have a Bar schedule. No problem , thanks
for the help.

BOB DD

_____

From: ham_amplifiers@...
[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Rich & DJ
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 4:42 PM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels...
Electrical codes, etc.

Well I guess all is not good because the wire running to the house and
the wire running to the shed are alum for 200 amp service each. I can
see it in the disconnect where it is dual 200amp lines, then it goes
underground , the conduit divides somewhere underground an feeds the two
200amp breaker boxes. The pole has a 380A commercial, 400A residential
transformer.
If I need heaver wire to my breakers then why do people in a subdivision
not need a wire rated for the transformer on the pole?
This had to be in place when it was first done because it can't be
turned off at the meter. If you pull my meter, all is still hot. My
meter runs off a current transformer. Just curious, not trying to
question your statement, just trying to lean.

-----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@...
[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Robert B. Bonner
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:28 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels...
Electrical codes, etc.

I don't know about using a 3Phase disconnect, but I don't see a problem
personally. Its pretty obvious whats happening inside the disco. You
wouldn't want to use 3phase panels this way.

You don't have a problem code wise if the wiring going from the 400A
pole fuses to each of the panels is 500MCM copper where it is then
breakered to 200Amps.

In a rural situation where the state inspector never sees it, most
wouldn't do this. If the wire is OO then the fuses in the 400A
disconnect NEED to be 200A. The wire must be fused at the source for
the wire's max current.

OO wire is rated at 190Amps however many locations allow OO to be fused
at 200 AMPS in residential power service distribution, where I live is
one of them. Otherwise OOO copper would be required. Aluminum
conductors require 2X the size and I don't recommend aluminum unless
absolutely necessary.

So there you go, what do you have?

_____

From: ham_amplifiers@...
[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Rich & DJ
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:32 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels...
Electrical codes, etc.

I have a question if I am legal by code rules. I bought this place 4
years ago and here is how it was wired. , I have my own 400 amp
transformer on a utility pole in the yard, at the bottom of the pole
there is a 3 phase 400amp disconnect with only two lines in use and
fused. There is no 400A 240V disconnect standard so a 3 phase box was
used, From there I have one run to the work shed and a 200 amp breaker
box and another run to the home and a 200 amp breaker box. I have
wondered about the splitting of the 400A run.
The shed has my work shop and my radio room. In the shed I have a
welder, air compressor, saws and future amp set up. I don't want to
rewire more than I have to, to be safe. Right the 240v for the welder
and air compressor is a 3 wire setup. All original wiring in the shed
was done in conduit.
The radio room has the breaker box in it so it will not be hard to
rewire for an amp. I built a universal (variable voltage) power supply
for the amp and it has a 3 wire cord from a range now.
This place is out in the sticks with the hicks and the ticks so wiring
was not inspected after it was first run.

Rich, kd0zz:
Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

hbmandel
 

Size 3/0 AWG wire is the correct guage to use for 200 ampere service,
not 2/0 AWG.

In any circumstance the wire diameter needs to be sized to the
breaker protecting it.

In a dead short situation you will want the breaker opening, even if
it is rated at 125 to 150 percent tripping, well before the wire
heats up to the point where the insulation melts and possibly catches
fire or releases poisonous gases.

The only point where the a.c. electrical ground is bonded to the
neutral should be in the main distribution panel and not in any sub
panel or appliance.

In commercial 200 amp single-phase, three wire installations the size
of the a.c.e.g. is 2AWG while the current-carrying conductors are 3/0
AWG. This is because the a.c.e.g. is a fault drain and not a current-
carrying conductor, but in D.C., everything changes, and that is a
topic for a separate discussion.

Lastly, in amateur appliances such as medium power transmitting
equipment, the connection to the frame of the equipment, e.g., the
frame ground or RF static drain, should be of the heaviest guage
affordable, and this conductor needs to be bonded to all the other
a.c.e.g and static grounds, ground rods, external ground ring,
interior halo, etc.

Hal Mandel
W4HBM
Re: Who makes this part?

FRANCIS CARCIA
 

we stopped using bulbs years ago LEDs last forever as long as you don't put too much current through them. The blue leds are very bright

craxd wrote:

Francis,

Yes, I've looked at theirs and Chicago Miniatures lamps. They have
some nice stuff. The reason I want these though is two fold. The lens
is really cheap. Buying bulk, the lens itself is about 20 cents each
not counting the Tinnerman nuts. The second and main reason is you
can use either a neon lamp, grain of wheat lamp, or T-1 3/4 LED with
the same lens. Really, any lamp that will fit in a 1/4" diameter
hole. In other words, no matter what the occasion, I can have the
lamp I need for the situation by simply changing out the lamp. I
think this is why Heathkit and others used this type lamp so much.

I used them for several years in some products I made but bought them
through a distributor. I never did know who made them, and now I
can't find a distributor with them. Linrose Electronics makes
something similar, but the lamp is permanantly mounted inside with
epoxy I imagine. There you couldn't re-lamp the lens, and have to buy
the whole assembly over it. Plus, keep one type for each voltage you
want to use. I'm hoping someone might know who made these originally,
or a distributor who carries them.

Thanks,

Will

--- In ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com, FRANCIS CARCIA
wrote:
>
> dialco makes a nice plug in neon lamp. Theis standard socket takes
leds from 5 to 28 VDC (with built in resistor for each voltage) or a
neon. Very nice stuff. We use them on front panels of our test
equipment.
>
> craxd wrote: I uploaded a small pic of a neon
panel lamp assembly to the photos
> section to see if anyone knows who manufactures these? They are the
> same press in neon lamp lens that Heathkit, B&K, and several others
> used for indicator lamps on their equipment. They press in a 5/16"
> round hole, and a Tinnerman nut is pressed over the lens from the
> rear to hold it. The outer lens you see is about 3/8" OD, and
tapers
> outward about 1/4" long. The total length is about 7/8" to 1". The
NE-
> 2 type neon lamp is then slid in the rear opening of the lens and
> it's leads soldered to the circuit. They are made of a translucent
> plastic either clear, red, amber, or green if I recall. I'd like to
> buy several hundred of these lens if I can find the manufacturer.
>
> Mouser has a similar smaller version, but they're not translucent,
> and are really made to use an LED with. I have some of these too,
but
> don't like them. I'm needing the larger ones like Heathkit used in
> Amber, red, or clear color. These wre used as the power indicator
> lamp on a Heathkit IM-5228 and IM-18 bracket mount VTVM.
>
> pic;
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Will
>
Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

FRANCIS CARCIA
 

All you need to do is add a pair of 200 amp breakers in series with each run and you will be legal. The only 400 amp run needs to be between the 400 amp breaker and the two 200 amp units.

Rich & DJ wrote:

Well I guess all is not good because the wire running to the house and the wire running to the shed are alum for 200 amp service each. I can see it in the disconnect where it is dual 200amp lines, then it goes underground , the conduit divides somewhere underground an feeds the two 200amp breaker boxes. The pole has a 380A commercial, 400A residential transformer.
If I need heaver wire to my breakers then why do people in a subdivision not need a wire rated for the transformer on the pole?
This had to be in place when it was first done because it cant be turned off at the meter. If you pull my meter, all is still hot. My meter runs off a current transformer. Just curious, not trying to question your statement, just trying to lean.
-----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert B. Bonner
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:28 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.
I dont know about using a 3Phase disconnect, but I dont see a problem personally.? Its pretty obvious whats happening inside the disco.? You wouldnt want to use 3phase panels this way.
You dont have a problem code wise if the wiring going from the 400A pole fuses to each of the panels is 500MCM copper where it is then breakered to 200Amps.
In a rural situation where the state inspector never sees it, most wouldnt do this.? If the wire is OO then the fuses in the 400A disconnect NEED to be 200A.? The wire must be fused at the source for the wires max current.
OO wire is rated at 190Amps however many locations allow OO to be fused at 200 AMPS in residential power service distribution, where I live is one of them.? Otherwise OOO copper would be required.? Aluminum conductors require 2X the size and I dont recommend aluminum unless absolutely necessary.
So there you go, what do you have?
From: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rich & DJ
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:32 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.
I have a question if I am legal by code rules. I bought this place 4 years ago and here is how it was wired. , I have my own 400 amp transformer on a utility pole in the yard, at the bottom of the pole there is a 3 phase 400amp disconnect with only two lines in use and fused. There is no 400A 240V disconnect standard so a 3 phase box was used, From there I have one run to the work shed and a 200 amp breaker box and another run to the home and a 200 amp breaker box. I have wondered about the splitting of the 400A run.
The shed has my work shop and my radio room. In the shed I have a welder, air compressor, saws and future amp set up. I dont want to rewire more than I have to, to be safe.? Right the 240v for the welder and air compressor is a 3 wire setup. All original wiring in the shed was done in conduit.
The radio room has the breaker box in it so it will not be hard to rewire for an amp. I built a universal (variable voltage) power supply for the amp and it has a 3 wire cord from a range now.
This place is out in the sticks with the hicks and the ticks so wiring was not inspected after it was first run.
Rich, kd0zz:
?
Re: AC HiPot tester question

GGLL
 

craxd escribi:
For checking vacuum caps, you really need HV DC to test them with since that's really what they'll be blocking.
At the Jenning's site:


In this application they work with RF only (3.5 MHz), in 2 coupling units for RF heating purposes; they have sockets for upto 20 of this capacitors in parallel, although now they use only 5 each.

I'm not familiar with that brand Hipot, but that sounds like the control is for capacitive reactance compensation. I'm not sure that will be that accurate testing those with an AC current. You might look for a manual on the net you can download and see how to use that with the control in mention.
I'll do a search. But, my big mistake was not to take note of the model, and the apparatus is at an industrial facility some 900 Kms. from here.
The XC comp. control, when actuated reduced the uammeter reading, to zero and beyond (-).
We had to select the best capacitors from a lot of eight spares (new and used) and also test the actually used ones. Some repeatedly arced at less than 30 KV or so, while others "tinked" briefly but withstanded 30 KV peak several seconds.
I think I'll go back there in two...three weeks.
Ah, the other brand I recall started with "Bolinko and..."

Best regards
Guillermo - LU8EYW.

Best,
Will
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., GGLL <nagato@...> wrote:

Past days I was able to try a Jennings HiPot tester with some
vacuum
capacitors (all 250 pF, 30 KV; some were Jennings, China made, with
ceramic
bodies, others of another USA brand which I do not recall and the
more
"traditional" glass envelope). This tester feeds an AC voltage upto
60 KV
peak; it has a control called "XC compensation". There was no
manual so all
was a try and guess. The effect I observed was to modify uAmmeter
reading.

Which is the main purpose of that control?.

Best regards
Guillermo - LU8EYW.
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

Robert B. Bonner
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

The power company is the other side of the world¡­?

?

I take everything I say back.? I¡¯m understanding what you have setup better understood¡­? I had the same thing at my farm.

?

Is the Disconnect on the pole fused or just a disconnect?? The wire going to the house and garage/barn are just fine.

?

The power feeding your house is just power company (even if you supplied it)? wiring.? This is just fine as long at it doesn¡¯t go more than 5 feet inside your house before hitting the breakers.? It doesn¡¯t need to be fused as it is service wiring.

?

Sorry for blasting off the first post.? It was the first thing I did this AM, got up at 10:15¡­? I have a Bar schedule¡­

?

BOB DD

?

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Rich & DJ
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 4:42 PM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

?

Well I guess all is not good because the wire running to the house and the wire running to the shed are alum for 200 amp service each. I can see it in the disconnect where it is dual 200amp lines, then it goes underground , the conduit divides somewhere underground an feeds the two 200amp breaker boxes. The pole has a 380A commercial, 400A residential transformer.

If I need heaver wire to my breakers then why do people in a subdivision not need a wire rated for the transformer on the pole?

This had to be in place when it was first done because it can¡¯t be turned off at the meter. If you pull my meter, all is still hot. My meter runs off a current transformer. Just curious, not trying to question your statement, just trying to lean.

?

-----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Robert B. Bonner
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:28 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

?

I don¡¯t know about using a 3Phase disconnect, but I don¡¯t see a problem personally.? Its pretty obvious whats happening inside the disco.? You wouldn¡¯t want to use 3phase panels this way.

?

You don¡¯t have a problem code wise if the wiring going from the 400A pole fuses to each of the panels is 500MCM copper where it is then breakered to 200Amps.

?

In a rural situation where the state inspector never sees it, most wouldn¡¯t do this.? If the wire is OO then the fuses in the 400A disconnect NEED to be 200A.? The wire must be fused at the source for the wire¡¯s max current.

?

OO wire is rated at 190Amps however many locations allow OO to be fused at 200 AMPS in residential power service distribution, where I live is one of them.? Otherwise OOO copper would be required.? Aluminum conductors require 2X the size and I don¡¯t recommend aluminum unless absolutely necessary.

?

So there you go, what do you have?

?

From: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rich & DJ
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:32 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

?

I have a question if I am legal by code rules. I bought this place 4 years ago and here is how it was wired. , I have my own 400 amp transformer on a utility pole in the yard, at the bottom of the pole there is a 3 phase 400amp disconnect with only two lines in use and fused. There is no 400A 240V disconnect standard so a 3 phase box was used, From there I have one run to the work shed and a 200 amp breaker box and another run to the home and a 200 amp breaker box. I have wondered about the splitting of the 400A run.

The shed has my work shop and my radio room. In the shed I have a welder, air compressor, saws and future amp set up. I don¡¯t want to rewire more than I have to, to be safe.? Right the 240v for the welder and air compressor is a 3 wire setup. All original wiring in the shed was done in conduit.

The radio room has the breaker box in it so it will not be hard to rewire for an amp. I built a universal (variable voltage) power supply for the amp and it has a 3 wire cord from a range now.

This place is out in the sticks with the hicks and the ticks so wiring was not inspected after it was first run.

?

Rich, kd0zz:
?
Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

Rich & DJ
 

Well I guess all is not good because the wire running to the house and
the wire running to the shed are alum for 200 amp service each. I can
see it in the disconnect where it is dual 200amp lines, then it goes
underground , the conduit divides somewhere underground an feeds the two
200amp breaker boxes. The pole has a 380A commercial, 400A residential
transformer.
If I need heaver wire to my breakers then why do people in a subdivision
not need a wire rated for the transformer on the pole?
This had to be in place when it was first done because it can't be
turned off at the meter. If you pull my meter, all is still hot. My
meter runs off a current transformer. Just curious, not trying to
question your statement, just trying to lean.

-----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@...
[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Robert B. Bonner
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:28 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels...
Electrical codes, etc.

I don't know about using a 3Phase disconnect, but I don't see a problem
personally. Its pretty obvious whats happening inside the disco. You
wouldn't want to use 3phase panels this way.

You don't have a problem code wise if the wiring going from the 400A
pole fuses to each of the panels is 500MCM copper where it is then
breakered to 200Amps.

In a rural situation where the state inspector never sees it, most
wouldn't do this. If the wire is OO then the fuses in the 400A
disconnect NEED to be 200A. The wire must be fused at the source for
the wire's max current.

OO wire is rated at 190Amps however many locations allow OO to be fused
at 200 AMPS in residential power service distribution, where I live is
one of them. Otherwise OOO copper would be required. Aluminum
conductors require 2X the size and I don't recommend aluminum unless
absolutely necessary.

So there you go, what do you have?

_____

From: ham_amplifiers@...
[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Rich & DJ
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:32 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels...
Electrical codes, etc.

I have a question if I am legal by code rules. I bought this place 4
years ago and here is how it was wired. , I have my own 400 amp
transformer on a utility pole in the yard, at the bottom of the pole
there is a 3 phase 400amp disconnect with only two lines in use and
fused. There is no 400A 240V disconnect standard so a 3 phase box was
used, From there I have one run to the work shed and a 200 amp breaker
box and another run to the home and a 200 amp breaker box. I have
wondered about the splitting of the 400A run.
The shed has my work shop and my radio room. In the shed I have a
welder, air compressor, saws and future amp set up. I don't want to
rewire more than I have to, to be safe. Right the 240v for the welder
and air compressor is a 3 wire setup. All original wiring in the shed
was done in conduit.
The radio room has the breaker box in it so it will not be hard to
rewire for an amp. I built a universal (variable voltage) power supply
for the amp and it has a 3 wire cord from a range now.
This place is out in the sticks with the hicks and the ticks so wiring
was not inspected after it was first run.

Rich, kd0zz:
Re: Fried glitch R...... from an oversized HV fuse

Tony King - W4ZT
 

Jim,

Don't you think that if a properly designed fault detection circuit similar to the triode and tetrode boards available today would have caused a primary circuit shut down saving the glitch resistors from becoming a smoking pile?

This isn't to minimize the value of a good fuse but to add that a properly functioning circuit can fault the HV supply off so that all you have to heat the glitch resistor is the stored energy in the capacitor bank. This is precisely what G3/GM3SEK and WD7S do with their boards. That way if you are testing and have one of those "modified" fuses in the circuit, it will still not melt anything down.

73, Tony W4ZT

pentalab wrote:

Gents
My buddy was recycling his old sand filled fuses... by soldering a single strand of 26 ga wire across the 5" long fuse. Fine so far. Amp was running fine the other night... the next day... BOTH HV fuses were blown open..... and amp was off from the previous night ! A real mystery. He then decided to solder TWO 26 ga wires across each of the old HV fuses. Next step was adding a small resistor to one hot leg of 250 cfm fan.. to slow it down a bit. [cools the glitch..... which diss 450 w with a dead cxr... 100 w on ssb] At that point all hell breaks loose. The paralleled 100 ohm 225 watt wire wound glitch R's looked like u hit both of em with a propane torch for 30 mins each.... charcoal !! We know a HV to chassis fault occured... may have been a faulty RFC bypass cap. The point here is.... by oversizing the HV fuse.... the load is then transfered to the 100 A breaker in the 240 v main 200 A panel.... which of course didn't blow open...... instead the glitch R's fried themselves... ! You need well over 100 A to open a 100 A panel breaker. Over sizing a HV fuse is bad enough.... and you guys want to operate with NO hv fuse at all ?? nuts. BTW... that Dahl A-540 hypersil C core 253 lb plate xfmr I have... has a .01 ohm primary.... and a 6.06 ohm sec [5200 v tap] You got any idea how much current you can suck from one of these things ..... LOADS... as my buddy with the same 253 lb xfmr just found out. 253 lb xfmr with a core good for 20 KVA CCS with a 100 A slo breaker... vs lowly glitch R [wound with nichrome wire no less] .... no contest.... glitch loses every time........ unless a correct sized HV fuse is used ! later... Jim VE7RF
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: House wiring revisited.

 

On Nov 18, 2006, at 9:00 AM, FRANCIS CARCIA wrote:

My new GE stove the fourth wire goes to case ground N goes inside.
No 120 volt outlet. A stove always used the neutral to pass current
in low heat settings.
That makes sense, so if the Low burner setting on my old 3-wire GE
stove pulls 1A at 120v, there is c. a 1100 ?V potential between the
third wire on the frame and gnd.

R L Measures <r@...> wrote:


On Nov 18, 2006, at 6:47 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

The issue is not what the latest NEC requirements happen to be,
it's questions like: Does it make electrical sense that to
be "safe" we need 4 wires for a 240v circuit, where 2 of the 4
wires carry zero- current? Recently when I was at Home Depot, I saw
a reel of 4- conductor #8 Cu. At first it struck me as odd, but
then it dawned on me that this was the NEC's latest rule for
wiring electric ovens and dryers.

### Rich... u still don't "get it".
Correctomundo, Jim
On any stove made in the
last 45 yrs... they all have a 120 vac outlet..sometimes two.
My GE has no outlets, but it does have a 40w, 120v lamp.
Most still have a row of glass fuses inside the top cover. A
stove would have to have a neutral just to run the 120 v stuff.
The built in light runs on 120 v. I'm not quite sure.... but
think the small burners on top run on 120 v.. may be wrong.
Semi-correct. 120v on low heat. 240v on high heat.
I
think they ran 2 x burners from one hot leg.... and the other 2
burners from the other hot leg.
Not on my GE.

## To recap.... 3 of the wires carry current. The 4th is to
save ur skin.
In someone's theory, yes, in reality, if no 4th wire were used, with
a dead short from one L to N at the stove, there would be c. 50V on
the enclosure for <2-seconds.

later... Jim VE7RF


R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org



R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org
Re: Who makes this part?

craxd
 

Francis,

Yes, I've looked at theirs and Chicago Miniatures lamps. They have
some nice stuff. The reason I want these though is two fold. The lens
is really cheap. Buying bulk, the lens itself is about 20 cents each
not counting the Tinnerman nuts. The second and main reason is you
can use either a neon lamp, grain of wheat lamp, or T-1 3/4 LED with
the same lens. Really, any lamp that will fit in a 1/4" diameter
hole. In other words, no matter what the occasion, I can have the
lamp I need for the situation by simply changing out the lamp. I
think this is why Heathkit and others used this type lamp so much.

I used them for several years in some products I made but bought them
through a distributor. I never did know who made them, and now I
can't find a distributor with them. Linrose Electronics makes
something similar, but the lamp is permanantly mounted inside with
epoxy I imagine. There you couldn't re-lamp the lens, and have to buy
the whole assembly over it. Plus, keep one type for each voltage you
want to use. I'm hoping someone might know who made these originally,
or a distributor who carries them.

Thanks,

Will


--- In ham_amplifiers@..., FRANCIS CARCIA <carcia@...>
wrote:

dialco makes a nice plug in neon lamp. Theis standard socket takes
leds from 5 to 28 VDC (with built in resistor for each voltage) or a
neon. Very nice stuff. We use them on front panels of our test
equipment.

craxd <craxd@...> wrote: I uploaded a small pic of a neon
panel lamp assembly to the photos
section to see if anyone knows who manufactures these? They are the
same press in neon lamp lens that Heathkit, B&K, and several others
used for indicator lamps on their equipment. They press in a 5/16"
round hole, and a Tinnerman nut is pressed over the lens from the
rear to hold it. The outer lens you see is about 3/8" OD, and
tapers
outward about 1/4" long. The total length is about 7/8" to 1". The
NE-
2 type neon lamp is then slid in the rear opening of the lens and
it's leads soldered to the circuit. They are made of a translucent
plastic either clear, red, amber, or green if I recall. I'd like to
buy several hundred of these lens if I can find the manufacturer.

Mouser has a similar smaller version, but they're not translucent,
and are really made to use an LED with. I have some of these too,
but
don't like them. I'm needing the larger ones like Heathkit used in
Amber, red, or clear color. These wre used as the power indicator
lamp on a Heathkit IM-5228 and IM-18 bracket mount VTVM.

pic;



Thanks,

Will
Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

 

On Nov 18, 2006, at 7:42 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

### This applies to any HV supply/linear amp as well. The
neutral if used.... is fed to it's own separate buss
bar/termination in the HV supply/amp...... and the neutral is
NEVER bonded to the chassis. If u did... u would have any and
all devices operating on 120 vac...having their return current
flowing back to sub panel via GRND. And since the sub panel has
isolated grnd/neutral buss's..... this 120 vac current would
continue back to MAIN panel ..VIA the grnd wire tying the sub and
main panel together.

### IE: The grnd wire[s] only are designed to carry FAULT
current.... and NEVER normal operating current.

### When Rich or anybody else advocates bonding the Neutral to
the chassis in any HV amp/RF deck/anything else... BEWARE... you
are violating the electrical code in all 50 states, and all of
Canada.
RICH SEZ....Beware of what? -- certainly not electric shock.
### I give up !
As well you should since there would likely be no more than 50v on the cabinet for under 2 seconds during a major short in the stove -- something I have yet to see in one.

### Why don't u take some of that 4 wire home depot 8 awg...
and parallel em into 2 pairs.... eq ga is then 5ga.
And throw away the extant 4ga. wire?
Then u
will have all 4 wires carrying current... and can run ur 8171.
I don't have an 4cx10,000A / 8171. I have the J version sitting around waiting until I finish the on-going slow-going solar-electric project.

Jim


R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org
Re: AC HiPot tester question

 

On Nov 18, 2006, at 7:29 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:


On Nov 18, 2006, at 1:42 AM, pentalab wrote:
### Jenning's told me, IF you are going to use.. say
a FIXED vac cap... as a PLATE BLOCK CAP [don't laff... LOADS of
11m QRO amps use fixed ceramic/glass vac caps as plate
blockers... mounted vertical... connected with a special clamp,
to
the center anode typ .82" solid pin] that the vac cap has to be
DE-RATED by 60% for V. IE: For an amp with say 7 kv no load
HV supply.... use a min of a 20 kv test rated vac cap.
RICH SEZ... A 15kV - tested Tune-C would do the job - provided that
the DC blocker cap was ahead of the Tune-C. With a 7000V anode
supply, and a g-g triode, the AC anode potential would be c. +/¨C
6700V-peak. Since the RF rating of a vacuumis 60% of it's DC
rating, or 9000V in this case, a 15kV cap would do the job. -
note - The "Plywood Box" amplifier used a 15kV tested Tune-C and a
9000V NL anode supply. The Tune C did not arc.

### Rich, when are u gonna read the posts more carefully ???????
Sorry.
We are talking about using a FIXED vac cap.... AS A PLATE
BLOCKER !!!!!!!!!!
A 20kV rated C to block 7000V DC sounds like over-engineering since
the actual AC potential across the blocker is minimal.
R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org
Re: Fried glitch R...... from an oversized HV fuse

 

On Nov 18, 2006, at 7:13 AM, pentalab wrote:

Gents

My buddy was recycling his old sand filled fuses... by soldering
a single strand of 26 ga wire across the 5" long fuse. Fine
so far.

Amp was running fine the other night... the next day... BOTH HV
fuses were blown open..... and amp was off from the previous
night !

A real mystery. He then decided to solder TWO 26 ga wires
across each of the old HV fuses. Next step was adding a small
resistor to one hot leg of 250 cfm fan.. to slow it down a bit.
[cools the glitch..... which diss 450 w with a dead cxr... 100 w
on ssb]

At that point all hell breaks loose. The paralleled 100 ohm 225
watt wire wound glitch R's looked like u hit both of em with a
propane torch for 30 mins each.... charcoal !! We know a HV
to chassis fault occured... may have been a faulty RFC bypass cap.
My perhaps stupid guess is that the capacitor will not be shorted if you check it with an ohmmeter.

The point here is.... by oversizing the HV fuse.... the load is
then transfered to the 100 A breaker in the 240 v main 200 A
panel.... which of course didn't blow open...... instead the
glitch R's fried themselves... !
You need well over 100 A to open a 100 A panel breaker.
Which is why I used a 40A thermal-magnetic breaker for the 8170 amp.



Over sizing a HV fuse is bad enough.... and you guys want to
operate with NO hv fuse at all ?? nuts.
Not nuts if one does his homework.

BTW... that Dahl A-540 hypersil C core 253 lb plate xfmr I
have... has a .01 ohm primary.
How did you measure this?
... and a 6.06 ohm sec [5200 v
tap] You got any idea how much current you can suck from one of
these things .
240v:5200v is a turns ratio of 1 to 21.66, so the 6.06 ohm secondary would look like 6.06/21.6 = 0.28-ohms added to the primary. 100A 240V services typically have c. 0.07-ohms of ESR. Assuming virtually zero flux loss for the hipersil core and 0.06-ohms in the wires between the main breaker box and the amp's 240V outlet, a shorted HV secondary would look like a 0.5-ohm to the source. Thus, my guess is that the short-circuit current would be c. 470A-rms. The secondary current under a short would be 470A / 21.6 = 21.7A-rms.
Jim: Why would a HV fuse in the secondary be better than a 250V fuse in the primary?
.... LOADS... as my buddy with the same 253 lb xfmr
just found out. 253 lb xfmr with a core good for 20 KVA
CCS with a 100 A slo breaker... vs lowly glitch R [wound with
nichrome wire no less] .... no contest.... glitch loses every
time........ unless a correct sized HV fuse is used !
When a correct size HV fuse is used and a short is applied, does the glitch R survive?

later... Jim VE7RF


R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org
Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

[email protected]
 

You can split a 400 amp run but each pair of conductors should be sized to handle 400 amp fault current. The conductor needs to match the fuse or breaker that feeds it.
Your sub panel is 200 amps so after that it only needs to be sized for 200 amps.

Rich & DJ <rdj@...> wrote:
I have a question if I am legal by code rules. I bought this place 4 years ago and here is how it was wired. , I have my own 400 amp transformer on a utility pole in the yard, at the bottom of the pole there is a 3 phase 400amp disconnect with only two lines in use and fused. There is no 400A 240V disconnect standard so a 3 phase box was used, From there I have one run to the work shed and a 200 amp breaker box and another run to the home and a 200 amp breaker box. I have wondered about the splitting of the 400A run.
The shed has my work shop and my radio room. In the shed I have a welder, air compressor, saws and future amp set up. I don¡¯t want to rewire more than I have to, to be safe. Right the 240v for the welder and air compressor is a 3 wire setup. All original wiring in the shed was done in conduit.
The radio room has the breaker box in it so it will not be hard to rewire for an amp. I built a universal (variable voltage) power supply for the amp and it has a 3 wire cord from a range now.
This place is out in the sticks with the hicks and the ticks so wiring was not inspected after it was first run.

Rich, kd0zz:
Outside Feeder Tap of Unlimited Length Rule [240.21(B)(5)
Outside feeder tap conductors can be of unlimited length without
overcurrent protection at the point they receive their supply, but
they must be installed in accordance with the following requirements:
Figure 3
(1) The tap conductors shall be suitably protected from physical
damage.
(2) The tap conductors shall terminate at a single circuit breaker or
a single set of fuses that limit the load to the ampacity of the
conductors. This single overcurrent device shall be permitted to
supply any number of additional overcurrent devices on its load side.
(3) The overcurrent device for the tap conductors is an integral part
of a disconnecting means or shall be located immediately adjacent
thereto.
(4) The disconnect is located at a readily accessible location either
outside the building or structure, or nearest the point of entry of
the service conductors.
--
Eddie, WB4MLE
Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.

FRANCIS CARCIA
 

240 400 A is a newer item so I'm not surprised someone used a 3 phase unit.
A guy I work with looked into the 400 amp setup and changed his mind when he saw the price.? I used 0000 copper between my meter socket and panel about 4 feet away.
I must have looked like a fool pulling that wire one strand at a time. I felt pretty stupid when I dropped the can of no ox down the conduit to the pole. I was lucky to have a knot in the pull rope and it popped right up without digging it up and cutting the pipe.


"Robert B. Bonner" wrote:

I dont know about using a 3Phase disconnect, but I dont see a problem personally.? Its pretty obvious whats happening inside the disco.? You wouldnt want to use 3phase panels this way.
You dont have a problem code wise if the wiring going from the 400A pole fuses to each of the panels is 500MCM copper where it is then breakered to 200Amps.
In a rural situation where the state inspector never sees it, most wouldnt do this.? If the wire is OO then the fuses in the 400A disconnect NEED to be 200A.? The wire must be fused at the source for the wires max current.
OO wire is rated at 190Amps however many locations allow OO to be fused at 200 AMPS in residential power service distribution, where I live is one of them.? Otherwise OOO copper would be required.? Aluminum conductors require 2X the size and I dont recommend aluminum unless absolutely necessary.
So there you go, what do you have?
From: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rich & DJ
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:32 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re: AC Breaker panels... sub panels... Electrical codes, etc.
I have a question if I am legal by code rules. I bought this place 4 years ago and here is how it was wired. , I have my own 400 amp transformer on a utility pole in the yard, at the bottom of the pole there is a 3 phase 400amp disconnect with only two lines in use and fused. There is no 400A 240V disconnect standard so a 3 phase box was used, From there I have one run to the work shed and a 200 amp breaker box and another run to the home and a 200 amp breaker box. I have wondered about the splitting of the 400A run.
The shed has my work shop and my radio room. In the shed I have a welder, air compressor, saws and future amp set up. I dont want to rewire more than I have to, to be safe.? Right the 240v for the welder and air compressor is a 3 wire setup. All original wiring in the shed was done in conduit.
The radio room has the breaker box in it so it will not be hard to rewire for an amp. I built a universal (variable voltage) power supply for the amp and it has a 3 wire cord from a range now.
This place is out in the sticks with the hicks and the ticks so wiring was not inspected after it was first run.
Rich, kd0zz:
?
Re: House wiring revisited.

FRANCIS CARCIA
 

My new GE stove the fourth wire goes to case ground N goes inside. No 120 volt outlet. A stove always used the neutral to pass current in low heat settings.

R L Measures wrote:


On Nov 18, 2006, at 6:47 AM, pentalab wrote:

> --- In ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com, R L Measures wrote:
> >
> > The issue is not what the latest NEC requirements happen to be,
> > it's questions like: Does it make electrical sense that to
> be "safe" we need 4 wires for a 240v circuit, where 2 of the 4
> wires carry zero- current? Recently when I was at Home Depot, I saw
> a reel of 4- conductor #8 Cu. At first it struck me as odd, but
> then it dawned on me that this was the NEC's latest rule for
> wiring electric ovens and dryers.
>
> ### Rich... u still don't "get it".

Correctomundo, Jim
> On any stove made in the
> last 45 yrs... they all have a 120 vac outlet..sometimes two.

My GE has no outlets, but it does have a 40w, 120v lamp.
> Most still have a row of glass fuses inside the top cover. A
> stove would have to have a neutral just to run the 120 v stuff.
> The built in light runs on 120 v. I'm not quite sure.... but
> think the small burners on top run on 120 v.. may be wrong.

Semi-correct. 120v on low heat. 240v on high heat.
> I
> think they ran 2 x burners from one hot leg.... and the other 2
> burners from the other hot leg.

Not on my GE.
>
> ## To recap.... 3 of the wires carry current. The 4th is to
> save ur skin.
In someone's theory, yes, in reality, if no 4th wire were used, with
a dead short from one L to N at the stove, there would be c. 50V on
the enclosure for <2-seconds.
>
> later... Jim VE7RF
>
>
>

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org
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