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On Nov 11, 2006, at 7:20 PM, Bill Turner wrote:

The only absolutely guaranteed measure of correct airflow is to
measure the temperature of the tube seals as specified by the tube
manufacturer, under full load for long enough for the tube to reach
max temp at that load. Any airflow beyond that is not necessary but
may give one peace of mind.

... provided that if the tube blows out of the socket, the operator can catch it on the fly.

Bill, W6WRT

------------ ORIGINAL MESSAGE ------------

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:26:27 -0300, GGLL <nagato@...> wrote:

how do one determine correct airflow?.

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

--- In ham_amplifiers@...,

RICH SEZ... opposite page (p.9) there's a picture of the inventor of
the firearms silencer, Hiram P. Maxim, wearing a set of headphones -
but strangely he is given no credit whatsoever for his brilliant
invention.

#### Hiram Percy Maxim DIDN'T invent the silencer.... his FATHER
did. ..per "200 metres and down". His father was on this noise
abatement program.... and came up with ways to quieten down everything
from air conditioners to cars.. planes etc. He didn't like the way
the noise level was rising in the cities. His next step was guns.
His 1st silencer was for shot guns... sort of like an acoustical
mechanical notch filter. They had to know how many grains the
projectiles were.. the freq, velocity, etc. The 1st shot gun
silencers sold for just $7.00 . Organized crime types apparently
wanted em real bad. Wonder how many people got knocked off from his
invention?

### Here's a question. Can one still be an ARRL life member ?? As
in.... pay XXX dollars. Im talking about today....now.

### My buddy is an ARRL lifer. I'm sure it cost him something
bizzare like a few hundred bucks... back in 1976. Thought it was like
$500.00 to $750.00

Later.... Jim VE7RF

On Nov 11, 2006, at 3:42 PM, Tony King - W4ZT wrote:

Rich wrote:

On Nov 10, 2006, at 5:46 AM, Tony King - W4ZT wrote:

<snip>

But quitting doesn't help... without a strong lobby, we have no

voice

for ham radio.

Mexican Hams have no such voice and they can operate any mode they
choose on any Ham band. We have the ARRL and we can't.

I agree with that... most countries do not have the spectrum grab that
goes on here in this country either. That's one factor for having a
voice in the process. From having sat in meetings at the FCC on UWB
issues with not only folks from ARRL but folks from the cell phone
companies, airlines and other interested parties, it certainly helps to
have a lobby... even if people like Michael Powell wasn't briefed and
didn't care about what we were there to discuss.

Personal and group lobbying for change at ARRL may be
time better spent. Start with your friends, get to know your

Section

Manager and District Director.

The problem with the Directors is that the League effectively
controls them with "shaking hands money". Another questionable area
is vote counting.

I don't know about those issues personally but if that is going on, then
that's a change that needs taken care of.

How would the membership go about doing it? According to a friend who worked at HQ, the powers that be joke about the membership thinking that it controls the Directors.

Enough people sending the message will
get it pushed up to the top.

I don't think the hierarchy listens to peons like me, Tony. For
example, the church with the pedophile priest problem: The first
case to receive national press coverage was in Louisiana in 1985 --
but the hierarchy did virtually nothing. In January 2002, the
scandal really hit the fan, and again the hierarchy did virtually
nothing. Of late, lay members who see contributing monies to defend
such priests as a waste of their money have stopped contributing. My
guess is that money talks loudest with the powers that be.

I know it does at the FCC... but at the ARRL? I am not sure what that is
going to buy.

Money puts food on the table and makes the mortgage payment.

Regarding the other issue... the affected churches must
deal with their own problems... I personally think it is a shame and a
crime and folks that bugger little kids deserve to die.

For c. 10% of priests, the problem is that they were altar-boys who experienced the same situation and ended up making it an unseen tradition. When the vow of chastity became mandatory in the 12th century, Pete Comestore wrote:

"The devil never harmed the church so much as when the church herself adopted the vow of celibacy."

It HAS to be
more costly to produce QEX as opposed to including the

articles in

QST.
Seems to me they're boiling QST down and what's left isn't the

best

part... some of the recent articles sure make that obvious.

When I

was a
beginner there were plenty of articles WAY over my head in QST.

This was also my experience in high-school, Tony, but after a few
years of additional schooling this changed and I realized that:
1. Designing and building RF transmitting amplifiers isn't akin to
rocket science.

It wasn't all about RF amplifiers back then... there were lots of
construction and technical articles.

RF-amplifiers, UHF, and regulated power supplies were some my main
areas of interest.

That's good... my point was, there were lots of articles on different
subjects. At least there wasn't the technical void there is today
because someone decided to siphon off the technical expertise to some
other magazine in an effort to make more money.

Exactly, and nobody likes to get fleeced.

Obviously I do NOT
subscribe to QEX. I've expressed my displeasure about the dumbing down
of QST but I haven't seen a response to that ;)

My guess is that the League is like the organization in Italy that hates like hell to admit to mistakes.

2. Many of the articles in QST were difficult to fathom because

the

author did a somewhat less than ok job of explaining what was

going

on so that new guys could understand.

Well, there is always a percentage like that but looking back at
many of
them, they were good.

Lack of explanation is not good because those who already know the
subject are not the ones most interested in reading an article, so
the article needs to be written so as not to lose those who want to
acquire the knowledge that the author acquired from the project at
hand. The word that describes this type of writing is "Readable".
I try to write readable stuff. If what I write is boring to experts,
I could not care less, the readers I hate to lose are those who
aren't experts.

And that's a very good point. I'd much rather have a solid base of folks
that weren't experts but were really interested than a few experts that
weren't interested in teaching the new folks anything. I appreciate your
efforts!

Thank you.

Of course they didn't see some things the same
way we do now... different view on technology or things learned

during

the last 50 years... but many were an honest effort to do a good

job.

Rich, you've spent a lot of your time trying to do a good job on
articles for QST so they're not ALL bad ;)

I made up my mind about the way articles should be written when I

was a

Sophomore in high-school and my parents gave me a subscription to

QST

for Xmas.

That's good. I'm not a good writer but I can appreciate things that are
written well and it's easy to see, after a lot of years, through those
that aren't.

...

One day when I was bicycling home from Jr. High School, I stopped
by the C-Street Market and I bought a 1955 Radio Amateur's Handbook.
On page 8 I read that we owe our amateur radio to the American Radio
Relay League. This strikes me as a bit odd. How about you?

The thought of it makes me puke... that was real stupid back then. I'm
glad it got changed.

On the opposite page (p.9) there's a picture of the inventor of

the firearms

silencer, Hiram P. Maxim, wearing a set of headphones - but

strangely

he is given no credit whatsoever for his brilliant invention.

Not surprised... considering a lot of them were/are gun grabbers and
such anyhow.

Hiram invented the silencer because his dad invented the machine-gun, and the damn things make too much noise.

HPM deserved credit for a lot of things but since the rag
was dedicated to ham radio, they didn't bother to acknowledge his other
achievements. That's too bad. There should have been and still SHOULD be
a short history lesson there so folks knew he was more than just a radio
geek.

I also find it disturbing that the ARRL tries to control the

way we use

amateur radio bands. Take a look at the 1.8MHz band: There are no
ARRL-approved sub-bands. No part of the band is reserved for

CW, for

AM, for spark. for SSB, for snobs, or for any we're better than

you

are elite group. We run what mode we want in any clear space we
want. Things pretty much sort themselves out, and nobody owns a
certain frequency -- with that one exception, of course.

True... even the new rules creating much larger phone segments

on 75/80

wont help some of that. 75 meters is terrible these days with

some of

the most inconsiderate, meowing, singing, trash mouth crap I

have ever

heard. Does not spreading manure around help to dispel the smell?

No, from personal experience ;) it actually increases the smell for a
time... but in the case of the bands, it probably will improve some
things though some of us will have to move away from the established
groups that have driven their stake deep into the core and will never move.

Good riddance methinks.

I have mixed feelings about total mixed use on the bands. You're right
that other countries don't have segmented bands like we do and, of
course, they don't have the amateur population that we do either. I
don't know if it would be better or not but I do have a concern that
there are those that would intentionally blow some established CW
activities away with their own wider bandwidth signals ON PURPOSE. I'm
not only talking about ARRL CW practice and bulletins but established CW
traffic nets and such don't function very well if folks have to contend
with SSB splatter all over them.

CW traffic nets don't function well with zero QRM. CW stations are also known to interfere deliberately with CW stations.

I suppose we will live with what we get
and use the new changes as an indicator for what will come in the
future. Perhaps one day we will have all modes on all band on all
frequencies like Jim spoke of and see what happens. I will say that it
is a shame to listen to the bottom end of 40 meters and hear SSB below
7010 blowing away weak signal CW DX... That's disgusting.

That's life, Tony. cheers

.

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

On Nov 11, 2006, at 10:54 AM, Robert B. Bonner wrote:

Well I do have responses for the comments.

I do currently own a 3K-A. Have had virtually all of them in the

past.

Also have owned an L4B, Swan Mark II never SB-220 or TL-922

however

I've
worked on almost everything at one time or another.

The problem with Henry's and Heath's design is the SOCKETS. The
Johnson
socket mounted below the chassis on 4 bent metal brackets is

the

problem.

### Drake uses the same Johnson sub mounted sockets on the L4B.
[came out in 1969].. on aluminium cylinder standoffs. The 3-500Z
spec is for only .08" h2o... which is easy to achieve. That's
zip..pressure wise. Drake used real Eimac SK-410's on the older
plane jane L4 [1964]

The little holes in the Johnson socket were matched to the 4-XX
series of
tubes. 4-65, 4-125, 4-250 and were designed before they

developed

tubes the
size of 4-400, 3-400, 3-500. There is inadequate cooling around

the

bases
when using these sockets with the larger tubes.

I've seen Eimac 3-500's with the letters burned off one side in
amps like
the SB-220.

RICH SEZ...I have never seen an amplifier with a cooling system

like a SB-220's.

#### Sure their is. The Ten tec Centurion uses the same deal.
The chassis is raised UP, right where the sockets are. Resembles a
small box sitting on the chassis... with two[oposing] sides chopped
out.. so air can pass UNDERNEATH...and hit all the pins. The tiny
slots in the cab are where they screwed up... really restricts air
getting in and out.

The correct Eimac air system sockets REALLY move air through

them

in all the
right places. For instance the 410's and 510's have a collar

where you

actually hook up ducted air to the base.

### agreed. A 4-1000 Deck I bought from W6RU back in 1977 was
done exactly like that. Blower mounted below... with flexible
ducting that fit that collar like a glove.

## On HB 4-1000's... I carefully removed the pins from the SK-
510 socket... then sliced off that collar with a hacksaw... re-
asembled.. then installed em. In that case... blower was on rear
apron... pressurized the chassis.

The problem is that the 3-500Z air system socket requires a high-
pressure centrifugal blower, and Ham amps used an ordinary
centrifugal blower.

### See my note above. A 3-500Z only requires a .08" h2o pressure.

Back in 1970's it was recommended if you weren't using ducted

air,

that you
disassemble the sockets and hacksaw off the collar to allow

even

better
airflow during pressurized chassis operations.

### exactly. An if using the older aluminium Eimac sockets..
like the SK-500 and SK-400... well the pressure requirements on a
SK-500 was 50% higher than a SK-510 .9" vs .6" The 500-
+400 socket had an offset for the small diam air hose. The fix
was to take socket apart... and slice the entire bottom off
transversely with a bandsaw.... then it resembled a 510/410.. with
that collar chopped off.

### On a related note. IF anybody using a 500/400 socket...
beware... there is a screw adjustment for female pin rigidity.
The 500/400 sockets used hollow female tubes to terminate the male
pins of the tube. At the base of the female tubes.. there is an
adjustment to allow some slop or play. I have seen fellows crank
these super tight... then stress the tube seals when the tube is
inserted. IF tight... you have too much lateral force on the male
pins of the tube. Once heated.. the seals will crack.... leave em
loose.

( SO... The next problem with ham designs is the
stupid covers on the amps. Drilling holes to make the boxes look

pretty. BAD airflow. The best would be cut large holes with metal
screens barely blocking the airflow path.

### You just nailed it right there ! The top lid on my L4B's
gets hot with a severe test. I removed the top lid... repeat the
test, and all is well. Some fellow in Ore did ur mod on his
Henry 5 K. Redid the entire blower setup. The other problem with
the 5k is... the holes in the chassis were too small and severely
restricted airflow from below. He increased em by a huge
amount... and also cut nice holes above EACH 3CX-1200.. and
installed those "hamburger grilles"... [4 x hole mount grates..
like u see available for ANY fan, used to keep ur finger's away
from fan blades] In this case.. the grilles are used to keep
fingers away from the anodes... yet let air pass freely... plus
they look good.

RICH SEZ... That's how I do it. I also use a varnished cardboard

flap that hinges up to let the air out. It just doesn't look as
pretty.

### It would look like hell! Now that's what I call "K-mart
construction". Rich would call it part of his.. "ugly amplifier"
scene.

### somebody.. think it was W7RF, radio dan.. supplied curved
plexiglass covers for the henry amps.. to make the exhaust air do
a sweeping right angle... facing the back... this was supposed to
kill some noise.... it would stop dust from settling in.. when not
in use.




A Heath cover is a piece of junk. They paint more of the hole area
closed than have open...

### agreed. Both Heath and Drake woulda been better off to just
made the entire top and sides solid... and 2 x big diam holes..
with fan grilles... right above the tubes.

### here's the interesting bit. Eimac states the glass tubes
cool by infared radiation.... well my natural gas fireplace puts
out loads of radiant heat.... a 3-500Z doesn't. Even though the top
lid gets hot... the sides are stone cold. None of the flat black
sides gets warm... on the inside or out... ditto with surrounding
componnents.

### For a real eye opener... a buddy close by... built a 2 x 4-1000
in gg.... that used LEAD chimney's... made by Eimac too. They
looked identical to a Eimac Glass chimney. They each had a small
teardrop shaped inspection plate on the side... that pivoted... just
like an old oil furnace. He also had the mating 4PR-1000 tubes.
Apparently, these chimney's were used on pulse rated tubes... when
extreme HV was used in pulse service.... the lead of course,
absorbed the X-rays. Never seen a lead chimney b4 or since.
Weighed a ton. Believe they were cast aluminum chimneys... with an
inner and outer lead liner.

Later... Jim VE7RF

The only absolutely guaranteed measure of correct airflow is to
measure the temperature of the tube seals as specified by the tube
manufacturer, under full load for long enough for the tube to reach
max temp at that load. Any airflow beyond that is not necessary but
may give one peace of mind.

Bill, W6WRT


------------ ORIGINAL MESSAGE ------------

On Nov 11, 2006, at 10:54 AM, Robert B. Bonner wrote:

Well I do have responses for the comments.

I do currently own a 3K-A. Have had virtually all of them in the past.
Also have owned an L4B, Swan Mark II never SB-220 or TL-922 however I've
worked on almost everything at one time or another.

The problem with Henry's and Heath's design is the SOCKETS. The Johnson
socket mounted below the chassis on 4 bent metal brackets is the problem.

The little holes in the Johnson socket were matched to the 4-XX series of
tubes. 4-65, 4-125, 4-250 and were designed before they developed tubes the
size of 4-400, 3-400, 3-500. There is inadequate cooling around the bases
when using these sockets with the larger tubes.

I've seen Eimac 3-500's with the letters burned off one side in amps like
the SB-220.

I have never seen an amplifier with a cooling system like a SB-220's.

The correct Eimac air system sockets REALLY move air through them in all the
right places. For instance the 410's and 510's have a collar where you
actually hook up ducted air to the base.

The problem is that the 3-500Z air system socket requires a high- pressure centrifugal blower, and Ham amps used an ordinary centrifugal blower.

Back in 1970's it was recommended if you weren't using ducted air, that you
disassemble the sockets and hacksaw off the collar to allow even better
airflow during pressurized chassis operations.

My Ph.D. is in Physics, I spent a lot of my career after college in the
computer industry doing chassis design for a computer company. Basically
trying to put 10 pounds of electronic maird in a 5 pound box and cool it.

Chortle. Another useful French word.

In the lab we had a lot of temp probes in computers.

This was all PRE-IBM PC... Pc designs actually are some of the worst cooled
boxes around. :-( SO... The next problem with ham designs is the stupid
covers on the amps. Drilling holes to make the boxes look pretty. BAD
airflow. The best would be cut large holes with metal screens barely
blocking the airflow path.

That's how I do it. I also use a varnished cardboard flap that hinges up to let the air out.

It just doesn't look as pretty. A Heath cover
is a piece of junk. They paint more of the hole area closed than have
open...

The glass temperature is okay no matter what skeptics say.

...
So I think Between Jim VE7RF and myself we've answered why amps like Henry,
and The Sb-220 have had pin melting issues.

Only in a SB-220 when the fan motor bearings are not kept oiled

BOB DD

-----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...]
On Behalf Of pentalab
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 6:25 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re: 3-500Z socket.... max current ratings

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

After my first 3-500 amp when I was 16 I always used sockets

and chimneys.

RICH SEZ.... Air system sockets and chimneys result in higher glass
temperatures than is the case with the transverse-fan cooling
system used in the SB-220 and TL-922.

### Nonsense. Depends on airflow... and speed of fan..or blower.
You def will get better, more uniform cooling with a blower and
chimneys... PROVIDED u use vertical finned anode connectors. With
chimneys... u def get better cooling of the pins.

I always felt it allowed the envelopes of the tubes to evenly

cool around the tubes. The tube pins get coolest direct air.

RICH SEZ... So why does the Henry 3K-A, which uses air-system
sockets and chimneys, have a history of melting solder out of tube
pins #1 and #5 ?

### Dunno... my guess is, since the 3K-A runs 4 kv.. and >2 kw
out... that some bozo at Henry screwed up. Maybe they use lousy
sockets.. with too much contact resistance. Who knows. Their
anode connector's may well be a problem. Lot's of homebrew 3-
500Z amps with chimney's... never a problem.

### There is hardly any air going through the pyrex coleman lantern
chimney's on a L4B... with it's puny... but quiet 1550 rpm
blower. No roasted ink either.... and no one ever melted solder
on pins 1+5.

### Use some heat sensitive paint(S)... like Eimac suggests... and
you can tell pretty quick... what's within spec.

Later.... Jim VE7RF

Yahoo! Groups Links

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

Rich wrote:

On Nov 10, 2006, at 5:46 AM, Tony King - W4ZT wrote:

<snip>

But quitting doesn't help... without a strong lobby, we have no voice
for ham radio.

Mexican Hams have no such voice and they can operate any mode they choose on any Ham band. We have the ARRL and we can't.

I agree with that... most countries do not have the spectrum grab that goes on here in this country either. That's one factor for having a voice in the process. From having sat in meetings at the FCC on UWB issues with not only folks from ARRL but folks from the cell phone companies, airlines and other interested parties, it certainly helps to have a lobby... even if people like Michael Powell wasn't briefed and didn't care about what we were there to discuss.

Personal and group lobbying for change at ARRL may be
time better spent. Start with your friends, get to know your Section
Manager and District Director.

The problem with the Directors is that the League effectively controls them with "shaking hands money". Another questionable area is vote counting.

I don't know about those issues personally but if that is going on, then that's a change that needs taken care of.

Enough people sending the message will
get it pushed up to the top.

I don't think the hierarchy listens to peons like me, Tony. For example, the church with the pedophile priest problem: The first case to receive national press coverage was in Louisiana in 1985 -- but the hierarchy did virtually nothing. In January 2002, the scandal really hit the fan, and again the hierarchy did virtually nothing. Of late, lay members who see contributing monies to defend such priests as a waste of their money have stopped contributing. My guess is that money talks loudest with the powers that be.

I know it does at the FCC... but at the ARRL? I am not sure what that is going to buy. Regarding the other issue... the affected churches must deal with their own problems... I personally think it is a shame and a crime and folks that bugger little kids deserve to die.

It HAS to be
more costly to produce QEX as opposed to including the articles in
QST.
Seems to me they're boiling QST down and what's left isn't the best
part... some of the recent articles sure make that obvious. When I
was a
beginner there were plenty of articles WAY over my head in QST.

This was also my experience in high-school, Tony, but after a few
years of additional schooling this changed and I realized that:
1. Designing and building RF transmitting amplifiers isn't akin to
rocket science.

It wasn't all about RF amplifiers back then... there were lots of
construction and technical articles.

RF-amplifiers, UHF, and regulated power supplies were some my main areas of interest.

That's good... my point was, there were lots of articles on different subjects. At least there wasn't the technical void there is today because someone decided to siphon off the technical expertise to some other magazine in an effort to make more money. Obviously I do NOT subscribe to QEX. I've expressed my displeasure about the dumbing down of QST but I haven't seen a response to that ;)

2. Many of the articles in QST were difficult to fathom because the
author did a somewhat less than ok job of explaining what was going
on so that new guys could understand.

Well, there is always a percentage like that but looking back at many of
them, they were good.

Lack of explanation is not good because those who already know the subject are not the ones most interested in reading an article, so the article needs to be written so as not to lose those who want to acquire the knowledge that the author acquired from the project at hand. The word that describes this type of writing is "Readable". I try to write readable stuff. If what I write is boring to experts, I could not care less, the readers I hate to lose are those who aren't experts.

And that's a very good point. I'd much rather have a solid base of folks that weren't experts but were really interested than a few experts that weren't interested in teaching the new folks anything. I appreciate your efforts!

Of course they didn't see some things the same
way we do now... different view on technology or things learned during
the last 50 years... but many were an honest effort to do a good job.
Rich, you've spent a lot of your time trying to do a good job on
articles for QST so they're not ALL bad ;)

I made up my mind about the way articles should be written when I was a
Sophomore in high-school and my parents gave me a subscription to QST for Xmas.

That's good. I'm not a good writer but I can appreciate things that are written well and it's easy to see, after a lot of years, through those that aren't.

Now,
there is little there I want to read. Too bad they can't be RE-
combined
to make ONE better magazine.

The problem as I see it is that the powers that be at QST are
presently "of, by, and for" something other than amateur radio.

It is like most of the cities etc. The government doesn't seem to exist
by and for the people but for their own agenda and it is all driven by
money. Now I don't fault ARRL for spending money on the spectrum
protection effort and many other things. If they don't fight the fight,
no one will. When people quit, there's less money... when there's less
money, there's less to work with... and the end result may not be what
you wanted. Unlike government that imposes taxes you can't avoid (most
of us can't), ARRL is funded by volunteer membership... you choose to
support them or not. If you don't, who do you support that IS fighting
for ham radio?

One day when I was bicycling home from Jr. High School, I stopped by the C-Street Market and I bought a 1955 Radio Amateur's Handbook. On page 8 I read that we owe our amateur radio to the American Radio Relay League. This strikes me as a bit odd. How about you?

The thought of it makes me puke... that was real stupid back then. I'm glad it got changed.

On the

opposite page (p.9) there's a picture of the inventor of the firearms silencer, Hiram P. Maxim, wearing a set of headphones - but strangely he is given no credit whatsoever for his brilliant invention.

Not surprised... considering a lot of them were/are gun grabbers and such anyhow. HPM deserved credit for a lot of things but since the rag was dedicated to ham radio, they didn't bother to acknowledge his other achievements. That's too bad. There should have been and still SHOULD be a short history lesson there so folks knew he was more than just a radio geek.

I

also find it disturbing that the ARRL tries to control the way we

use

amateur radio bands. Take a look at the 1.8MHz band: There are no
ARRL-approved sub-bands. No part of the band is reserved for CW, for
AM, for spark. for SSB, for snobs, or for any we're better than you
are elite group. We run what mode we want in any clear space we
want. Things pretty much sort themselves out, and nobody owns a
certain frequency -- with that one exception, of course.

True... even the new rules creating much larger phone segments on 75/80
wont help some of that. 75 meters is terrible these days with some of
the most inconsiderate, meowing, singing, trash mouth crap I have ever
heard.

Does not spreading manure around help to dispel the smell?

No, from personal experience ;) it actually increases the smell for a time... but in the case of the bands, it probably will improve some things though some of us will have to move away from the established groups that have driven their stake deep into the core and will never move.

I have mixed feelings about total mixed use on the bands. You're right that other countries don't have segmented bands like we do and, of course, they don't have the amateur population that we do either. I don't know if it would be better or not but I do have a concern that there are those that would intentionally blow some established CW activities away with their own wider bandwidth signals ON PURPOSE. I'm not only talking about ARRL CW practice and bulletins but established CW traffic nets and such don't function very well if folks have to contend with SSB splatter all over them. I suppose we will live with what we get and use the new changes as an indicator for what will come in the future. Perhaps one day we will have all modes on all band on all frequencies like Jim spoke of and see what happens. I will say that it is a shame to listen to the bottom end of 40 meters and hear SSB below 7010 blowing away weak signal CW DX... That's disgusting.

73, Tony W4ZT

On Nov 11, 2006, at 7:26 AM, GGLL wrote:

R L Measures escribió:

Air system sockets and chimneys result in higher glass temperatures
than is the case with the transverse-fan cooling system used in the
SB-220 and TL-922.

Rich, how do one determine correct airflow?. If it blows too low, high
temperatures arise, but if your airspeed is too high cooling
efficiency may be
also degraded (besides the noise)?.

If the mfg's marking ink on the glass turns brown, more air is
probably a good idea. If the tube blows out of the socket, a smaller
blower is in order.

Best regards
Guillermo - LU8EYW.

cheers, G.

...

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

On Nov 11, 2006, at 5:27 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

On Nov 11, 2006, at 12:27 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...>

wrote:

### Interesting. Per a 2 hr documentary on A+E... the church

coughed up 600 million cash.. for families of victims.... for
exactly 600 x priest's. All were settled out of court.

RICH SEZ...So far, over $1100-million has been paid out in the

U. S. and the Los Angeles archdiocese has yet to settle with the
600+ victims of its 170+ pedo- priests. Two of my friends were
victims. . . trivia: Archbishop of L.A., Roger Mahony's
callsign is W6QYI.

### U gotta be kidding ? $1100- million is 1.1 BILLION BUX

Correct. That a stack of Ben Franklins 44,000 inches high.

! Now u know where the money goes every week. My older sis thinks
it's all hogwash... "they couldn't possibly have done any of it"...
and they must be nothing but..."unsubstantiated allegations" by a
bunch of witch hunting sour grapes types.

Take the case of Fr. Paul Shanley. His defense attorneys argued unsuccessfully that he was unfairly seduced by a cute six-year old boy.

The trbl is.... even
though $1100 million has been paid out of court.

The total includes in court as well as out of court settlements - a.k.a., "hush-money". Thus, the total is an estimate made by attorneys who litigate such cases.

... meanwhile these
pedo-priest's are still running amuck...free. You only hear of
the odd one being locked up.... if they can find him.

### so what do you think is the real problem ? Is is the Priest's
vow of celibacy.... and/or that they can't marry.... or is the
church a magnet for nut cases ?

That's a question with a complex answer. As I see it, if they have a job rule that priests can't do it with women, odds are that those men who do not want to do it with women will be interested in the job.

### I'd be embarassed to belong to a bozo run outfit like that.

Amen, however, some of my friends have told me I would make a good priest. Maybe they were joking?...

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

On Nov 11, 2006, at 5:07 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

RICH SEZ....> > Canada does not have sub-band restrictions?

### Canada got RID of sub band restrictions a LONG time
ago.... think it was 1981.

Excellent

The Fed gov't got sick of us
continually asking to expand the phone bands.... so they announced
NO more sub bands. It's ANY MODE....ANY BAND.... ANY FREQ....
with a max BW of 6 khz [except 30m.. where it's max 1 khz BW... but
u can still run a kw on 30m data/rtty/cw] Real simple.

Though any of us could operate phone way down at the bottom of the
cw bands... we never do. Most of the rest of the planet is like
this allready.

The kicker is.... I can call CQ down on 3600 khz on ssb... and
never get an answer,,, unless DX.

I haven't called CQ in probably 30-years. I run into guys I know and start commenting if I have anything to contribute. The good thing about the low end of 80m is that a group can move down there without causing much of a problem.

...

I attended St Lucifer's back in 1959. Got booted after just one
yr.

Why were you booted?

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

On Nov 11, 2006, at 4:24 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

After my first 3-500 amp when I was 16 I always used sockets

and chimneys.

RICH SEZ.... Air system sockets and chimneys result in higher glass
temperatures than is the case with the transverse-fan cooling
system used in the SB-220 and TL-922.

### Nonsense. Depends on airflow... and speed of fan..or blower.
You def will get better, more uniform cooling with a blower and
chimneys... PROVIDED u use vertical finned anode connectors. With
chimneys... u def get better cooling of the pins.

The marking ink does not change color in a SB-220 if the fan is oiled every 1000-hours or so.

I always felt it allowed the envelopes of the tubes to evenly

cool around the tubes. The tube pins get coolest direct air.

RICH SEZ... So why does the Henry 3K-A, which uses air-system
sockets and chimneys, have a history of melting solder out of tube
pins #1 and #5 ?

### Dunno... my guess is, since the 3K-A runs 4 kv.. and >2 kw
out...

The 2K-4 does the same thing.

that some bozo at Henry screwed up. Maybe they use lousy
sockets.. with too much contact resistance. Who knows. Their
anode connector's may well be a problem. Lot's of homebrew 3-
500Z amps with chimney's... never a problem.

Hotter glass isn't usually a problem, the point is that horizontal air-flow results in lower temperatures and less acoustical noise because a high-pressure centrifugal blower makes more noise than a fan.

.

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

I seen a post yesterday about the pic not being large enough to
really see it. Yahoo re-sizes this to a tumbnail, a medium size which
is the one you see by clicking on the thumbnail, and a larger one.
There's a link to the larger pic named View: Medium Large just above
the medium pic.

I also saved it as a PDF finally which is an over-sized pic. This
will give a good print quality. The pdf file is named Core-Size.pdf
and is stored under the files portion of this group.

Hope this is better for any who want it.

large pic:


dc3d?b=1&m=f&o=0

pdf:


vPi6xW73wDBMgtOAGNrbsS_zxhuM3A06FedtS8CdI5niRRXuSshKKUFnWWfBU/Core-
Size.pdf

Best,

Will


--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd@...> wrote:

All,

I set down and made a logarithmic graph today showing how a
transformers core size in square inches goes up with wattage. I

used

the Maxwell calc to get the values and really sped things up.

Anyhow,

I printed off the Log graph paper and hand done the graph (curve)
from the values I got from the calc. I then scanned it back into my
PC making a JPEG pic. There will be a large version suitable for
printing saved under files later tonight in a zip file. The small

one

under photos can be read but just barely. It wouldn't be woth a

crap

to try to print. The one to be added to the files section is 1.72
megs in size, and that in a zip file. It is extra large which gives

a

quality printed version.

Bill Orr tried to show one along with the ARRL on sizing one by
weight which in reality can be wrong. This new graph can be proven

by

the basic transformer formulas. It does not account for the

stacking

factor which is between 0.90 and 0.98. When the core size is
multiplied by it, it really drops the size in square inches by a
small amount. The stacking factor must be gotten from the

individual

spec sheets for each core lam size and the thickness of the lam. By
using the graph without deducting for the stacking factor, one is
better off.

This graph is for a core running at 12 kilogauss and 60 Hz. For 50
Hz, multiply the size in square inches by 1.2. The graph covers

from

1 watt to 10 kW. You'll notice is makes a bell curve using the log
graph. To read it, just use the watts you want, and go up to where
it's line intersects the curve. Then read to the left the size in
square inches the core should be. The core is the central iron

inside

the coil and is measured by the tounge width times the stack
thickness. The tounge width is generally X2 the outside leg width

for

easy measuring. The curve does not account for under-sized wire.

Best,

Will

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the ham_amplifiers
group.

File : /Core-Size.pdf
Uploaded by : craxd <craxd@...>
Description : transformer core size to watts graph

You can access this file at the URL:


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:


Regards,

craxd <craxd@...>

Well I do have responses for the comments.

I do currently own a 3K-A. Have had virtually all of them in the past.
Also have owned an L4B, Swan Mark II never SB-220 or TL-922 however I've
worked on almost everything at one time or another.

The problem with Henry's and Heath's design is the SOCKETS. The Johnson
socket mounted below the chassis on 4 bent metal brackets is the problem.

The little holes in the Johnson socket were matched to the 4-XX series of
tubes. 4-65, 4-125, 4-250 and were designed before they developed tubes the
size of 4-400, 3-400, 3-500. There is inadequate cooling around the bases
when using these sockets with the larger tubes.

I've seen Eimac 3-500's with the letters burned off one side in amps like
the SB-220.

The correct Eimac air system sockets REALLY move air through them in all the
right places. For instance the 410's and 510's have a collar where you
actually hook up ducted air to the base.

Back in 1970's it was recommended if you weren't using ducted air, that you
disassemble the sockets and hacksaw off the collar to allow even better
airflow during pressurized chassis operations.

My Ph.D. is in Physics, I spent a lot of my career after college in the
computer industry doing chassis design for a computer company. Basically
trying to put 10 pounds of electronic maird in a 5 pound box and cool it.

In the lab we had a lot of temp probes in computers.

This was all PRE-IBM PC... Pc designs actually are some of the worst cooled
boxes around. :-( SO... The next problem with ham designs is the stupid
covers on the amps. Drilling holes to make the boxes look pretty. BAD
airflow. The best would be cut large holes with metal screens barely
blocking the airflow path. It just doesn't look as pretty. A Heath cover
is a piece of junk. They paint more of the hole area closed than have
open...

Though poorly implemented the Alpha 77D-S was on the right track. The
double fan in the Henry 4K-U was very good at moving the heated air out of
the RF compartment.

My 77DD design utilized a DOUBLE computer style blower, one pressurized a
small cabinet compartment below the 8877's across the rear of the RF section
and the other blower blew air across the tank and vented across the whole
rear of the RF compartment not restricting airflow.

This cooled all tank components and removed the heated air.

A 3K will behave itself nicely when run below absolute max power.

A tube glass envelope will cool well when there is flow around the tube.
The base seals and the top are the most critical locations. We know this
because Eimac tells us so.

Since after my first 3-500 amp.... I have always used the correct Eimac
sockets only.

As far as the other comment regarding moving air too fast... You cant move
the air too fast by a glass envelope. Its not like the thermodynamics in
Air/Water coolers (Like car radiators) where you can pass water too quickly
to transfer the heat.

AIR is a much less dense and easily warmed medium.

The only limit in Amplifiers as we know it are the retention of the tube in
the socket. CRANK UP THE BLOWER UNTIL THE TUBE POPS OUT... Or, what you can
tolerate for noise.

The thing is to get away from cheap replacement parts when building
amplifiers. Yes I've used Colman lamp chimneys in a project or two. But
they were not max effort amplifiers. That cute little turn in at the top of
the Eimac chimney is to cool the anode seal.

Johnson sockets are for beginners and manufacturers who are trying to shave
bucks from a product and don't give a hoot how good the thing works.

Henry could have scaled down the blower noise on the 3 series amps by a
cover redesign raising the cover height slightly and removing holes, by
using the correct sockets, chimneys and correct plate caps.

Funny how mistakes continue amp generation to generation. The original 2K
used 3-400's and they made the 3K with taller 3-500 by cramming all the
stuff in and using funkier shortened parts... The new "A" design was a
little taller but they didn't fix the sockets.

The original 3K makes a fantastic 8877 conversion amp.

Yes like RF says.. The vertical coolers are good, but you must be careful
to not block off the chimney top.

So I think Between Jim VE7RF and myself we've answered why amps like Henry,
and The Sb-220 have had pin melting issues.

BOB DD

R L Measures escribi:

Air system sockets and chimneys result in higher glass temperatures than is the case with the transverse-fan cooling system used in the SB-220 and TL-922.

Rich, how do one determine correct airflow?. If it blows too low, high temperatures arise, but if your airspeed is too high cooling efficiency may be also degraded (besides the noise)?.

Best regards
Guillermo - LU8EYW.

On Nov 10, 2006, at 8:04 PM, badgerscreek wrote:

Hi Rich

Are you still selling those 470uf 450 volt Electrolytics?

Yes

I dont see
them on your pricelist.

Thanks for the heads up, Greg. I fixed the price-info list.
The price is $9.93 each. If you need some, send adr, say how many, we ship ur order via usps, pay from the invoice.

Greg

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

On Nov 11, 2006, at 12:27 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...>

wrote:

### Interesting. Per a 2 hr documentary on A+E... the church

coughed up 600 million cash.. for families of victims.... for
exactly 600 x priest's. All were settled out of court.

RICH SEZ...So far, over $1100-million has been paid out in the

U. S. and the Los Angeles archdiocese has yet to settle with the
600+ victims of its 170+ pedo- priests. Two of my friends were
victims. . . trivia: Archbishop of L.A., Roger Mahony's
callsign is W6QYI.

### U gotta be kidding ? $1100- million is 1.1 BILLION BUX !
Now u know where the money goes every week. My older sis thinks
it's all hogwash... "they couldn't possibly have done any of it"...
and they must be nothing but..."unsubstantiated allegations" by a
bunch of witch hunting sour grapes types. The trbl is.... even
though $1100 million has been paid out of court.... meanwhile these
pedo-priest's are still running amuck...free. You only hear of
the odd one being locked up.... if they can find him.

### so what do you think is the real problem ? Is is the Priest's
vow of celibacy.... and/or that they can't marry.... or is the
church a magnet for nut cases ?

### I'd be embarassed to belong to a bozo run outfit like that.

Later... and sri for being... "off topic"

Jim

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

RICH SEZ....> > Canada does not have sub-band restrictions?

### Canada got RID of sub band restrictions a LONG time
ago.... think it was 1981. The Fed gov't got sick of us
continually asking to expand the phone bands.... so they announced
NO more sub bands. It's ANY MODE....ANY BAND.... ANY FREQ....
with a max BW of 6 khz [except 30m.. where it's max 1 khz BW... but
u can still run a kw on 30m data/rtty/cw] Real simple.

Though any of us could operate phone way down at the bottom of the
cw bands... we never do. Most of the rest of the planet is like
this allready.

The kicker is.... I can call CQ down on 3600 khz on ssb... and
never get an answer,,, unless DX.

What's now gotta happen is to get the AM broadcast crap out of the
3900-4000 band.... and ditto with 7100-7300. NO point in having
more BW.... then losing it to 100-300kw AM SW broadcaster's .
The poor old general's only have 3850 to 3900 to play with...
unless they wanna contend with Asian broadcast above 3900 khz.

Meanwhile... night after night, month after month..yr after yr....
hundreds of khz of empty CW bands..... what a waste.... esp since
CW takes up zip bw... provided you don't tip the scales... and bias
the ZSAC beyond cutoff.. and try and run Class C with a GG amp!

I attended St Lucifer's back in 1959. Got booted after just one
yr.

later... Jim VE7RF

On Nov 10, 2006, at 11:36 PM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

RICH SEZ... I also find it disturbing that the ARRL tries to
control the way we use amateur radio bands.

### agreed. In Canada it's any mode on any band on any freq...
there are No phone sub bands. ESSB on 3507 khz... no problem. We
would never do it of course. The rest of the planet operates this
way. Makes it totally elastic.. and flexible. The u can move
about more during a contest... whether u are for or against the
contest. CW band clogged up... move up a bit.

### Seems stupid to the rest of us that USA hams can operate CW
across the entire band... but ssb down on 3680 is a no-no.... even
though that part of the band is dead night after night.

Quite

Take a look at the 1.8MHz band: There are no

ARRL-approved sub-bands. No part of the band is reserved for CW, for
AM, for spark. for SSB, for snobs, or for any we're better than
you are elite group. We run what mode we want in any clear space we
want. Things pretty much sort themselves out, and nobody owns a
certain frequency -- with that one exception, of course.

### Lemme guess.... Rauch's favourite personal playground... 1822
khz...reserved exclusively for hiscw dx acivities.

According to the guy in Manhattan who tipped me off about his debating strategies prior to the grate parasitics debate, he holds court for his groupies on his frequency using SSB.

OTOH, take a look at the 3.5MHz band. where many KHz are
virtually a vast wasteland because of ARRL-blessed sub-bands.

### agreed. Aren't the ARRL... the fella's that promote all the
contests [qrm fests].... guys making thousands of useless qso's?
Then they have the audacity to come up with this stupid 3 khz max
bw for ssb.... and promote digital voice [which still doesn't
work... and neither does drm/iboc]

Bingo

### They couldn't band plan their way outa paper bag. I used to
be heavy into contesting yrs ago.... but I didn't call CQ... 300 hz
from a group of guys on 75m... all running QRO.

### On 40m it's a real mess. They all operate split.... too bad
they didn't listen on their TX frequency. They do the same thing
on 75m... TX right on top of a qso.... and listen down on 3610.

A fun solution to this problem is to tape record them on the frequency they are interfering with and play it back on the frequency they are listening to.

### The real answer is to just move ALL the AM SW broadcast junk
from both 40m and 3900-4000....... down to say... 11m.

Guffaw

Later... Jim VE7RF

cheerz

73, Tony W4ZT

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

After my first 3-500 amp when I was 16 I always used sockets

and chimneys.

RICH SEZ.... Air system sockets and chimneys result in higher glass
temperatures than is the case with the transverse-fan cooling
system used in the SB-220 and TL-922.

### Nonsense. Depends on airflow... and speed of fan..or blower.
You def will get better, more uniform cooling with a blower and
chimneys... PROVIDED u use vertical finned anode connectors. With
chimneys... u def get better cooling of the pins.

I always felt it allowed the envelopes of the tubes to evenly

cool around the tubes. The tube pins get coolest direct air.

RICH SEZ... So why does the Henry 3K-A, which uses air-system
sockets and chimneys, have a history of melting solder out of tube
pins #1 and #5 ?

### Dunno... my guess is, since the 3K-A runs 4 kv.. and >2 kw
out... that some bozo at Henry screwed up. Maybe they use lousy
sockets.. with too much contact resistance. Who knows. Their
anode connector's may well be a problem. Lot's of homebrew 3-
500Z amps with chimney's... never a problem.

### There is hardly any air going through the pyrex coleman lantern
chimney's on a L4B... with it's puny... but quiet 1550 rpm
blower. No roasted ink either.... and no one ever melted solder
on pins 1+5.

### Use some heat sensitive paint(S)... like Eimac suggests... and
you can tell pretty quick... what's within spec.

Later.... Jim VE7RF