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Re: 3 - phase HV supply
Peter Voelpel
To achieve 1,5% ripple from a 6-pulse power supply of 5KV at 3A you will
need a capacitor of 0,32?F. Without any cap ripple will be 4%. You will not here any hum from a transmitter without capacitor in the 6-pulse capacitor when using sideband transmissions. From a carrier you here little hum on zerobeat. The formula to find C for the 3-phase bridge circuit is the same as for any other circuit, just calculate C from XC by using 300Hz in the formula. How the transformer is connected does not matter, usually the primary will be delta for best efficiency and the secondary will be star connected. You will have 2 diodes per leg. The voltage across one winding is dc/sqrt6. I my 7KV 4A CCS P/S I use UGE1112AY4 diodes by IXCYS, 3 per leg, just scewed one into the next. The transformer secondary is 5KV +/-5%, +/-10% phase to phase, or 2887V across one winding. I use 2?F 10KV for smoothing and a crowbar overload circuit with it. 73 Peter ________________________________ From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of pentalab Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need any C at all ! [3 phase] ### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It would also highly depend on the load. ### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase.... so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested. Somebody is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better research it. ### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info. Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta"..... and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me. With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414 Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory] |
Re: Hi-
I wonder if 'Z' is the c.s. administrator of the old amps group on
contesting.com? Har, he really shot himself in the foot. He's now the administrator of a defunct group. He might as well retire, he won't have anyone to administrate to now but himself! Hey 'Z' is your name Tom? Jer times### DREAM ON. I checked 'amps' on contesting .com 3 ONLYnow.... with a microscope [pulling up their archives]..... it got posted TWICE..... once from Mike... once from AlekYes, that is the distinct number of people who claimed to have |
Re: henry 3k/8k choke input HV supply
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:
could not hear any ripple -- at least on ### The ripple with say 2 uf and 6 kv @ 800 ma should have been VERY noticeable........ unless of course your xcvr chops off all the audio below 300 hz. You can hear 120 hz ripple plane as day on ESSB. ## 6 kv and a 2 uf C input filter would result in real bad dynamic HV regulation ! ### I used 16 uf [with a 2 holer 4-1000] which resulted in 3% ripple.. I then increased it to 48 uf.. and 1% ripple could be obtained. ### BTW... my co-hort's tell me that most of these Microwave oven's all have one 1-uf 5KV oil cap in em. I know one fellow who paralled about 3 x doz of em... it worked. Later... Jim VE7RF |
Re: 3 - phase HV supply
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., Jan Erik Holm <sm2ekm@...>
wrote: ### Dunno. You would only have 5% ripple with NO cap.... and with a resonant choke set up.....you probably wouldn't need any C at all ! [3 phase] ### Seems to me.... WAY back on 'amps'.... somebody tried this.... and with NO HV cap installed on the output..... one leg of the diode board would always blow out ! It needed just a little bit of C to make things happy for some reason.[3 phase + resonant choke.... NO output HV cap. ] ### IF no resonant choke setup... and just a straight C input filter.... I'm guessing around 5-16 uf would be plenty. It would also highly depend on the load. ### With NO load [just the eq resistor's across the lytics, etc... which basicly is zip]... ripple is nil. The greater the load.... the worse any ripple gets. You can see 3% ripple... plane as day with a dead cxr, on any RF "monitor scope". Looks like a small sine wave across both the top and bottom. Should be a solid green bar. ### I haven't found any formulae for a C input filter HV supply........ with 3 phase. I don't have access to 3 phase.... so never pursued it. It would be the ultimate setup. IF you find anything... let me know... as I'm most interested. Somebody is going to ask me to engineer one for em... so I had better research it. ### I did see some info on C input 3 phase HV supplies some where.... it's in Orr's older books.... but not alot of info. Seems to me he had the 3 x primary's connected in a "Delta"..... and the 3 x secondary's tied in a.. "star". The rectifier set up... if I remember, sorta looked like just 2 x diodes per sec winding... one flipped around If I remember. The RMS voltage per sec winding vs no load HVDC output is what threw me. With say a 1 kv sec.... I'm positive... the OCV hv wasn't 1414 Vdc. [I may well be wrong with this.. just going by memory] In any event... the entire concept looked cool .... which could easily be implemented with either a 3 phase xfmr.... or 3 x separate xfmrs. Dahl's diode boards for this appear to have 6 x legs for the entire mess.......... instead of 4 x legs for single phase FWB..... which, incidently he rates at 18 A CCS.... using just standard 6A10 diodes [1 kv-6] diodes. He rates a standard FWB.. with the usual 4 x legs at 12 A CCS... using the same 6A10 1 kv-6A diodes. Now 6 A x .8 V = 4.8 watts.... which would get VERY hot. I experimented with mine.. in a test jig... just pumping low V DC... and a variable lab supply + a 25 ohm-225 w resistor... and found that the 1N5408 [1 kv-3A] would run luke warm with 1 A CCS... and hot at 2A... and smokin hot at 3 A. Similar results with the 6A10 [6 A- 1 kv]... runs luke warm with 2 A CCS... hot with 4 A.... and smokin hot with 6A. Commercial rectifier assy's using these diodes... some of em will blow 100 cfm across em.... if u want to run em anywhere near maxed out. I also tried paralleling 3A diodes for more current [and also 6A diodes] .. Done easily... and the current split is virtually 50-50. So I don't understand the ARRL handbook insisting installing series resistor's in each leg for balancing ? I also tried paralleling two separate, identical bridge rectifier assys.... same results. One other note... Just by hooking a test clip lead on the very 1st and very last diode.. while doing my heating tests... I found that the 1st and last diode ran barely warm.... while the rest of em ran hot. The leads out each end of these diodes IS the heatsink.... so don't cut em off short.... they either have to go along aways horizontally b4 doing a right angle into the board... OR go straight through the board... and keep going in mid air below the board 1" to 1.5" Later.... Jim VE7RF |
Re: Hi-
zerobeat40
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "pentalab" <jim.thomson@...> wrote:
Yes, that is the distinct number of people who claimed to have attempted to post it and claimed that it was not posted. Thank you for the corroborration. Z |
Re: Hi-
pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "zerobeat40" <zerobeat40@...>
wrote:
theAs I understand it, announcements of this group's existence on ofAMPS group were somewhat censored.Your understanding is incorrect. There were several announcements this group, as well as the larger more-established rfamplifiersgroup on Yahoo that made it to AMPs. Everytime someone posted on thisgroup that "my announcement did not get posted", I looked at AMPS - andit was, in fact, posted.### DREAM ON. I checked 'amps' on contesting .com 3 times now.... with a microscope [pulling up their archives]..... it ONLY got posted TWICE..... once from Mike... once from Alek later........Jim VE7RF |
Re: Hi-
zerobeat40
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:
Your understanding is incorrect. There were several announcements of this group, as well as the larger more-established rfamplifiers group on Yahoo that made it to AMPs. Everytime someone posted on this group that "my announcement did not get posted", I looked at AMPS - and it was, in fact, posted. Z |
Re: Ohmite - was Umpteen to zero...
On Oct 3, 2006, at 5:54 AM, ad4hk2004 wrote:
Rich I took a look... The resistors are L100J-20K rated 2850 voltsHigh value wire-wound resistors have a well deserved reputation for opening up - even when operated well within the mfg's max-V rating. cheers, Denny R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org |
Help - Need Alpha 99 PS/xfmr info
Tony King - W4ZT
Hi Group,
Anyone have the schematic and hookup info for the Alpha 99 HV transformer that you could send electronically? I have downloaded the manual from Alpha but it does NOT include any schematic or info on the transformer connectors. Thanks in advance for your help! 73, Tony W4ZT tony at w4zt dot com |
Re: Umpteen to zero...
ad4hk2004
Ummm, no... Thought didn't occur... I will do that but I unlikely I
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will make a change... One resistor got hot in the middle of the winding, bubbled the coating over a distance of about an inch and a half, being exposed to the air oxidized the nichrome wire and it finally burned in two... Then the fireworks started with crap being arc sputtered all over the PS... Being the RF box is in a different room of the shop than the radios, I heard/noticed nothing until I happened to idly look the HV while in receive... Eyes got wide and I hastily hit the main breaker on the wall by my left hand (planned that way for stuff such as this) The other 4 resistors look fine, no sign of overheating... I am going to change out the whole rack of 5, but that is just because I'm an old woman about minor things - spent part of my wasted youth maintaining a herd of 100KW RF generators and a pinch of prevention stops a whole bunch of lost production time... It looks to me to be a manufacturing defect in the resistor as opposed to deficient design... ( Brand was HEI 9352, possibly a spot welded wire join in the winding? - dunno. ) I know contesting groupies go on about Henry's supposed design deficiencies, but I have to say until this incident this amp has given a dozen years of solid contesting service... The high voltage stabilization is/was stiff... Since I don't jump from band to band in a contest the slow tuning is not an issue... I have been happy with it... denny / k8do Denny == Have you checked the max V rating of Ohmite's 100W resistors? |
Re: Hi-
On Oct 2, 2006, at 5:58 PM, pentalab wrote:
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Hsu" <Jbenson@...> wrote:As I understand it, announcements of this group's existence on the AMPS group were somewhat censored.ham_amplifiers. R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org |
Re: HV Fuses.... and why we need em.
On Oct 2, 2006, at 3:25 PM, pentalab wrote:
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@...>2uF in a FWB is enough for a 4-1000A at 6kV. Indeed, and it's all because of greed. . During the recent heat wave in Southern California, transformers were popping like popcorn in residential areas because Southern California Edison originally cut costs by installing transformers that were Way too small. For example, on our block, a 50kva transformer supplies power to c. a 200kva max load. During one heat spell, the transformer got so hot it broke a seam and started to leak coolant oil. Edison's fix was to replace it with another 50kva unit. And nobody on the Rx-end can hear the difference, Jim. R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org |
Re: henry 3k/8k choke input HV supply
On Oct 2, 2006, at 2:55 PM, pentalab wrote:
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "ad4hk2004" <ad4hk2004@...>That's what I presumed too until a friend did some tests with a Dahl resonant choke filter. He discovered that significantly less bleeder current than Henry Radio used would keep the standby potential from rising more than usual. On the 8 k.. they used a 6000 V xfmr. .9 x 6000 =An 8877 will easily stand 10kV on standby. The main danger from 8kV is to the filter capacitor. Agreed, but for A?, RTTY, long-winded AM broadcasting, and for guys who like to "pump iron", it's ideal. A Dahl 127-pounder with a C-filter is good for at Least 30 out on SSB using one 8281 / 4cx15,000 in AB1. I agree for SSB. ... cheers, Jim R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org |
Re: henry 3k/8k choke input HV supply
To see how much ripple was noticeable on the air, a friend put a 4-1000A on the air with a 6kV FWB PS running a 2uF C-filter. I could not hear any ripple -- at least on
SSB. AM would likely have been different. On Oct 2, 2006, at 9:50 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org |
Re: SB-200 newbie question
On Oct 2, 2006, at 3:50 PM, Bob Green wrote:
OK, I've got the grids of the 572's grounded through 33 ohm resisters inBob -- Grid current eventually gets back to the negative HV. It flows through the 33-ohms, to gnd, and from gnd through the grid-I meter shunt-R to HV-neg. Typical values for the shunt-R are c. 1.0-ohm with a small, few k-ohm calibration resistor in series with the meter to make it read accurately. cheerz R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org |
Re: SB-200 newbie question
You can look here:
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73 Jim SM2EKM --------------------------------------------------------- Bob Green wrote: OK, I've got the grids of the 572's grounded through 33 ohm resisters in |
Re: henry 3k/8k choke input HV supply
Then, if we talk 3-phase supply and 6-puls rectifying,
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lets say around 5 kV DC potential, how much glitch C is needed to achieve 1.5 percent ripple? Forgot how to calculate it, must dig out books to do it. 73 Jim SM2EKM --------------------------------------------- pentalab wrote: ### You want to shoot for 1 to 1.5% ripple in a C input HV supply.... then you can also be assured of good dynamic reg. |
Re: henry 3k/8k choke input HV supply
craxd
Jim,
Yes, your correct on the 3-5% ripple for the plate tranny. I was thinking of the low voltage DC supplies when I wrote that. Sorry, my faux pas. The formulas are written around 5% actually since they feed supplies for all types equipment including test equipment like RF generators, etc. I agree the cleaner the better, but that can be hard to do the lower you go under 5%-3%. More C = More clean, but more current from the tranny and through the rectifiers. Manufacturers design for the bare minimum over the cost of the transformer, and the caps IMHO. The formulas was for the rms tranny current for the secondaries. In other words, it takes 1.8 times (1.8 by Stancor and others, and 2X for 100% duty cycle) the DC load current for a C input full wave bridge at around 5% ripple or less (Hammond says 1.6 X). Now you multiply that by the secondary voltage to get the secondary power, then multiply that by the losses (wire I^2 R and core) found by the efficiency (for large cores around 85%), and that's the primary power since primary power = secondary power plus the losses. After that, multiply by the power factor which is generally 0.9 according to the "Reference Data for Radio Engineers" book. On the resonant choke, I had read a little more since that comversation, and seen the part about designing for a bit above 120 Hz somewhere on the net. To me, it's more worry and complicated than what it's worth. I'll bet it never works the same between each amp they build either. I also never did complete the project after all I read about it. Matching the choke to the caps is about the only way to do it. Also, one would have to run the amp so the rated current would always be where it resonates, or it wouldn't do any good. The reason why the Hammond trannys would run hot is probably where they spec them smaller than the others using the 1.6 X DC current figure. They're the only ones that do it I've seen from a Ton of research I've done on the subject. 1.6 would probably be ok for SSB only. BTW, The group at Wikipedia that deleted the transformer info had me to do a complete new page named transformer design. Take a look, though I've not finished it completely. There's 1-2 from the transformer page helping me with it after all the discussions went over. I'm only going to do the power transformer portion. For audio and RF, others can do it. See; Best, Will --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "pentalab" <jim.thomson@...> wrote: a 'minor' flash from the sandfilled fuse. Nothing gets blown up. |
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