That's simply incorrect. Our voice "peaks" are very long,
compared to the RF frequency, they they have do indeed have a
running RMS value. "Peak" on a watt meter is the peak power, which
is always part of a a running-RMS (like a running mean but RMS
instead) power.?
Your house current id 60 Hz and has a peak voltage of about 169
V. Is your light blulb or power input to you amp rated based on
120 VAC or 169 V peak AC? Yes, wire insulation must be rated for
the peak voltage it is to with stand, but it's current carrying
capacity is rated in the RMS current. There is no such thing as
"RMS power": it's simply power, computed based on the RMS voltage,
current, or the RMS voltage squared over the impedance, or the RMS
current squared milipaited by the impedance.
73,
Kim N5OP
On 4/17/2025 6:04 PM, Adrian Fewster
via groups.io wrote:
Well our RF wattmeter usually has peak and avg selections ??
RMS is converting the AC to a DC value that is constant to
determine the constant heat W emitted. At a peak time snapshot
, peak power and peak voltage are true for that moment.
Think of it like shoveling coal into a boiler. The heat
produced is determined by the average coal added? time rather
than peak
coal added in a moment.
So 'peak RMS values ' does not make sense, as once converted to
rms there are no peaks nor valleys for the math purpose.
73
vk4tux
On 18/4/25 05:33, Kim Elmore via
groups.io wrote:
I can¡¯t help but chime in: RMS is the only value that makes
sense. Outlet voltage in your house is 120 V RMS. There¡¯s no
such thing as ¡°RMS power¡±; peak power come from peak RMS
values.?
Kim
N5OP
"People
that make music together cannot be enemies, at least
as long as the music lasts."?--
Paul Hindemith
?
Duty cycle is considered. These are peak voltage
obtained by 100% duty cycle continues wave.
?
the Eimac formula for calculating grid dissipation
is based on peak.?
Pg = vga X Ig
?
anyway, anything I state is like I said, this is
what I know, how I calculate it. I¡¯m not an engineer,
just an amateur. There are plenty of engineers
floating around here and if I¡¯m incorrect, I would
love to be corrected as that would benefit myself and
I¡¯m always open to learning more. Any day I can learn
is a day of victory.
?
PS, this stuff is the fun part of the hobby!?
?
73!!
--
Kim Elmore, Ph.D. (Adj. Assoc. Prof., OU
School of
Meteorology, CCM, PP SEL/MEL/Glider, UAS, N5OP, 2nd Class
Radiotelegraph, GROL)
¡°Listen, it's too big a world to be
in competition with everybody
else. The only guy I have to get better than is who I am
right now.¡± ¨C Col.
Sherman T. Potter, 4077 M.A.S.H.
|
Grids don¡¯t have enough thermal mass for protection like a plate has.?
Exceeding peak values are enough to blow out a grid.
?
Many moons ago, I had a Henry 3-KA it had a pair of Eimac 3-500Zs had sheet metal plates and ~ 3500 Volts on
the plates.? It was a beast.?
It was a mess when I bought it.? I had to rebuilt the plate circuit wiring and replace the noisy plate circuit fan.?
I replaced the fan with a more powerful Dayton squirrel cage blower.
This was in the days when the US FCC power limits were 2K peak output.?
The FCC intended that 2K peak to be for SSB.
?But the rule was written 2KW peak.?
2KW peak for SSB is also 2 KW peak for CW. ?At that power level the plates were a nice dull red¡ªjust like the spec sheets says.?
And a Bird Wattmeter indicated 2 KW output¡ªprobably exceeded the 500 Watt per tube dissipation but the greater air volume helped mitigate that some.?
Worked out well for a bunch of CQ World-Wide Contests.
?
73,
Dave, w6de
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Kim Elmore via groups.io
Sent: 17 April, 2025 19:33
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [ham-amplifiers] SB-1000
?
I can¡¯t help but chime in: RMS is the only value that makes sense. Outlet voltage in your house is 120 V RMS. There¡¯s no such thing as ¡°RMS power¡±; peak power come from peak RMS values.?
N5OP
?
"People that make music together cannot be enemies, at least as long as the music lasts."?--
Paul Hindemith
On Apr 17, 2025, at 11:55, KG2RG via groups.io <justinandyazny@...> wrote:
?
Duty cycle is considered. These are peak voltage obtained by 100% duty cycle continues wave.
the Eimac formula for calculating grid dissipation is based on peak.?
Pg = vga X Ig
anyway, anything I state is like I said, this is what I know, how I calculate it. I¡¯m not an engineer, just an amateur. There are plenty of engineers floating around here and if I¡¯m
incorrect, I would love to be corrected as that would benefit myself and I¡¯m always open to learning more. Any day I can learn is a day of victory.
PS, this stuff is the fun part of the hobby!?
|
On 4/17/2025 1:51 PM, Peter Voelpel
wrote:
Sorry,
Eimac said different in "care and feeding of power grid
tubes".
Ahhha... in that example, Eimac is calling the SWING of
plate or grid voltage "peak".
*I've* always considered the "peak plate voltage" to be the most
positive voltage that the plate can attain (and the
corollary is the "negative peak plate voltage" would be the
most negative plate voltage), and I think the rest
of us have done so, too. But in that example, that writer is NOT
using that same "definition" and in fact, at the end of that first
paragraph, he seems to mix (or at least combine) terms when he
says "This is a peak swing of 220 volts, and the peak
r-f grid voltage is 220 volts.".?
And just prior to that, he writes "... the greatest each value swings
away from the d-c value. This is known as the peak value
of the r-f voltage."
Looks like a matter of semantics? 8-)
Steve, K0XP
|
Sorry, Eimac said different in "care and feeding of power grid tubes".
Your formula is for driving power.
?
73
Peter
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [ham-amplifiers] SB-1000
Datum: 2025-04-16T03:03:50+0200
Von: "KG2RG via groups.io" <justinandyazny@...>
?
The Eimac formula for grid dissipation is:
Pg=Vgc X Ig
where Vgc is the peak positive grid to cathode voltage
and Ig is the DC grid current.
?
? ?
|
I can¡¯t help but chime in: RMS is the only value that makes sense. Outlet voltage in your house is 120 V RMS. There¡¯s no such thing as ¡°RMS power¡±; peak power come from peak RMS values.?
Kim N5OP
"People that make music together cannot be enemies, at least as long as the music lasts."?-- Paul Hindemith
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Apr 17, 2025, at 11:55, KG2RG via groups.io <justinandyazny@...> wrote:
? Duty cycle is considered. These are peak voltage obtained by 100% duty cycle continues wave.
?
the Eimac formula for calculating grid dissipation is based on peak.?
Pg = vga X Ig
?
anyway, anything I state is like I said, this is what I know, how I calculate it. I¡¯m not an engineer, just an amateur. There are plenty of engineers floating around here and if I¡¯m incorrect, I would love to be corrected as that would benefit myself and I¡¯m always open to learning more. Any day I can learn is a day of victory.
?
PS, this stuff is the fun part of the hobby!?
?
73!!
|
Duty cycle is considered. These are peak voltage obtained by 100% duty cycle continues wave.
?
the Eimac formula for calculating grid dissipation is based on peak.?
Pg = vga X Ig
?
anyway, anything I state is like I said, this is what I know, how I calculate it. I¡¯m not an engineer, just an amateur. There are plenty of engineers floating around here and if I¡¯m incorrect, I would love to be corrected as that would benefit myself and I¡¯m always open to learning more. Any day I can learn is a day of victory.
?
PS, this stuff is the fun part of the hobby!?
?
73!!
|
Hmmmm¡.It seems to me that Vgc should be the RMS, NOT the peak value in determining the grid dissipation.? The RMS value will determine the actual amount of heating.? This makes the dissipation calculation better.? Additionally, duty cycle should also be considered. -Chuck K1KW ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of KG2RG via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2025 11:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [ham-amplifiers] SB-1000 ? The formula for grid dissipation is? where vgc is the peak positive grid to cathode voltage. Ig is the DC grid current.? grid dissipation is peak voltage multiplied by Grid current.? If you run 100W CW exciter drive into an Eimac 3-500Z at the SB-1000 and AL-80B max limits listed in their manuals of Ig 200mA and Ip 550mA, then this is what calculates.? as per Eimac data sheet, drive impedance is 115 and ?grid dissipation is 20W.? 2 figure out peak voltage: voltage squared divided by resistance = power.? 100W CW drive X 115 drive impedance = 11,500. Extracting the sq root = 107.2V RMS.?
for peak voltage, 107.2V x1.4 (2sq) = 150 peak voltage.? 150 peak V multiplied by 0.2mA Ig = 30W grid dissipation. That exceeds Eimac listed grid dissipation by 50%.?
|
I agree Lou, and I have also heard Tom talk about time, duty cycle and ¡°thermo lag¡±
|
Don¡¯t forget that the ratings on the tube are key down 24/7 CCS.. ?W8JI will tell you like he said hundreds of times before that the killer of tubes is not a slight over plate or grid current it¡¯s dissipation over time the ruins tubes. ?The only downside to over current is the plate and grid dissipation reaches?its limit faster, hence if you run it that way to ?get?higher pep power you need to lower the duty cycle. ?Since SSB is around 30% of key down the ICAS current rating his higher but of course not CCS. ?Time is the deciding factor.
On Thursday, April 17, 2025, 9:51 AM, Jim VE7RF via groups.io <jim.thom@...> wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 08:20 AM, KG2RG wrote:
Jim, W6SAI, best book around!!! Sometimes called the West Coast book, sometimes called the big green book, the Radio handbook by William ?I Orr, great stuff!!!
?
Heathkit and Ameritron were able to convince Eimac to give a 1 year warranty. This was also back when tubes were plenty and cost less. ?
?
the question is what happens when you run a Eimac at Ip at 550mA CW? You exceed the Eimac specs by 37.5%
what is the most fragile part of a tube? the grid, and it¡¯s rated at 20W dissipation.?
so what happens at 200mA of Ig with 100W of drive? ?
the drive impedance of the 3-500Z is 115 per Eimac.?
Grid dissipation is peak voltage X grid current.?
at 100W drive, peak grid voltage is 150V
150x0.2=30W. At 30W, max specified Grid dissipation is being exceeded by 50%?
?
As I mentions, I do run a little over for SSB since voice modulation duty cycle is 50% or less, so I may run around 150mA of grig and a little over 400mA on the Ip. But for CW, I do not exceed the Eimac specs. I also run it with just a little color to activate the getter.?
###? ?On the SB-1000,? AL-80B, they rate it at 1000w? pep out on? SSB? (550 ma).....and? only 850 watts out on CW (450 ma).??
?
|
The formula for grid dissipation is?
Pg = Vgc X Ig
?
where vgc is the peak positive grid to cathode voltage.
Ig is the DC grid current.?
grid dissipation is peak voltage multiplied by Grid current.?
If you run 100W CW exciter drive into an Eimac 3-500Z at the SB-1000 and AL-80B max limits listed in their manuals of Ig 200mA and Ip 550mA, then this is what calculates.?
as per Eimac data sheet, drive impedance is 115 and ?grid dissipation is 20W.?
2 figure out peak voltage:
?
if
voltage squared divided by resistance = power.?
?
then
100W CW drive X 115 drive impedance = 11,500. Extracting the sq root = 107.2V RMS.?
for peak voltage, 107.2V x1.4 (2sq) = 150 peak voltage.?
finally
150 peak V multiplied by 0.2mA Ig = 30W grid dissipation. That exceeds Eimac listed grid dissipation by 50%.?
|
On 4/17/2025 6:51 AM, Jim VE7RF via groups.io wrote: ###? ?On the SB-1000,? AL-80B, they rate it at 1000w? pep out on SSB? (550 ma).....and? only 850 watts out on CW (450 ma). The person to ask to clarify this would be the man who designed the SB1000 and AL-series: Mr. W8JI, hisself. Steve, K0XP
|
On 4/17/2025 6:41 AM, Jim VE7RF via groups.io wrote: (A) 70.7 vrms x .3 =? 21.21 watts? ?grid diss
(B) 100 V peak? x .3? =? 30 watts grid diss. V-rms obviously yields watts-RMS, and Volts-peak gives watts-peak. Perhaps Reid Brandon? will chime in.? ?Right now, I can't fathom why Eimac would use peak cathode RF voltage? instead of RMD cathode voltage. Because SSB is measured by it's peak: Peak Envelope Power. RMS only applies under continous carrier conditions. Steve, K0XP
|
On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 08:20 AM, KG2RG wrote:
Jim, W6SAI, best book around!!! Sometimes called the West Coast book, sometimes called the big green book, the Radio handbook by William ?I Orr, great stuff!!!
?
Heathkit and Ameritron were able to convince Eimac to give a 1 year warranty. This was also back when tubes were plenty and cost less. ?
?
the question is what happens when you run a Eimac at Ip at 550mA CW? You exceed the Eimac specs by 37.5%
what is the most fragile part of a tube? the grid, and it¡¯s rated at 20W dissipation.?
so what happens at 200mA of Ig with 100W of drive? ?
the drive impedance of the 3-500Z is 115 per Eimac.?
Grid dissipation is peak voltage X grid current.?
at 100W drive, peak grid voltage is 150V
150x0.2=30W. At 30W, max specified Grid dissipation is being exceeded by 50%?
?
As I mentions, I do run a little over for SSB since voice modulation duty cycle is 50% or less, so I may run around 150mA of grig and a little over 400mA on the Ip. But for CW, I do not exceed the Eimac specs. I also run it with just a little color to activate the getter.?
###? ?On the SB-1000,? AL-80B, they rate it at 1000w? pep out on? SSB? (550 ma).....and? only 850 watts out on CW (450 ma).??
?
|
On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 08:59 AM, Peter Voelpel wrote:
Yes, power is never calculated with peak voltages.
73
Peter, DJ7WW
That's what I thought too.? It shoulda been? RMS cathode voltage? X? DC grid current? =? Grid dissipation.................. BUT it's not.? Eimac uses? PEAK? RF? cathode voltage X? DC grid current =? grid diss.? On a L4B, it runs 300 ma? DC grid current and 800 ma plate current? at 2.5 kv under load.? With 100 watts? drive it amounts to either: (A) 70.7 vrms x .3 =? 21.21 watts? ?grid diss (B) 100 V peak? x .3? =? 30 watts grid diss.? The above is for TWO tubes.? ?Each tube has? 20 watts of? CCS grid diss.? ?So a total of 40 watts? CCS grid diss.? Perhaps Reid Brandon? will chime in.? ?Right now, I can't fathom why Eimac would use peak cathode RF voltage? instead of? RMD cathode voltage.?
|
On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 07:32 AM, Fran?ois wrote:
Just to add some elements to the discussion. Here's what I noticed on my Drake L-7, so with 2 x 3-500Z. The -9V bias on the grid is generated directly on the grid; the 9V zener is not in the cathode circuit.
?
?
Note that the grid current is lower when the plate voltage increases.
?
In France, we're limited to 500W, but I wonder how in the USA you can reach 1 kW without exceeding the maximum Eimac values.
That 1 kw pep output from the single 3-500Z? is because they are using IVS? (intermittent voice ratings) for SSB.? ?That operation was approved by Eimac. IE:? it's because of the low duty cycle on SSB.? They rate the same amp at 850 watts? output on CW mode.? Same idea,? CW is a reduced duty cycle....... but not as much as SSB...... hence the 1000/850 ratings? for SSB / CW.?
|
Francois.? No problems with removing all those grid caps and grid chokes.? ?Save the 2 x grid chokes.??
Use 3 x separate copper straps? for each tube....then bond the? 3 x grid pins directly to the chassis.? Best mod for those amps yet.
IMD improves a bit.? And also less drive required.?
But with any bias diodes installed, more drive required to overcome the grid bias,? ?so it's like one step forward.....then one step backwards.? ?It comes out a wash.?
|
Jim, et al.
I just learned a few things that should be of interest on the subject of Econco.
This morning I had an inquiry from a local broadcast engineer I know.
He asked me about a 4CX12,000A knowing I was involved with taking the CC curves on the prototype when I was employed at the big E.??
I am retired and seldom do anything with tubes any longer, I like to listen to my stereo (no tubes in it either!)
He mentioned the last tube he got from Econco lasted only 12 days.
?
Earlier in the year I was speaking with Debbie Storz regarding another Econco issue (re: warranty and pricing).
I just tried calling her to get help with the failure of the 12,000A but I learned she was just laid off, as was Lourdes, the other woman in customer service there (her responsibility is / was for export and Industrial tubes). The new owner TransDigm has been laying off or forcing retirements to reduce overhead. Last December the tube engineer at Eimac responsible for the tubes you all know, quit when they gave him different marching orders. TransDigm is a huge conglomerate -? check the current stock price of $1300 a share. IMHO they bought CPI MPP in order to extract as much profit as they can squeeze out of it.? ??
?
Case in point, I recently found the price of an Econco rebuilt 4CX10,000D went from $2059 from last year to $3059 now, effective April 2025. (I checked my notes twice!) this means a new Eimac 10D will be $6118 provided Econco still bases the price of a rebuilt as one half of a new tube price.??
?
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there's more!
Seems Debbie had been speaking with a CB op who had an issue with a tube that he wanted some answers on, technical questions that used to be routed to Matt Lindsey and before him Joe Canaveri. The policy used to be that one of the aforementioned employees would provide test results etc. Now there isn't anyone available there that knows a volt from an amp.
?
Anyhow, what I learned last Dec was the CBer insulted Debbie more than once in a long telefone call but apparently she brushed him off politely, I'm sure she wasn't insulting because that's not her nature. The man hung up and called the CEO who must have got an ear full of CB anger because he then informed Debbie that henceforth Econco wasn't accepting any rebuilds from CB or hams.?
?
I can't get a clarification from her as to that policy now since she's gone but I'm pretty certain that they will not do special mods like you described where a grid flange could be added to a 3CX3000A7 for example. I was getting that done at the factory level 20 years ago no sweat, for a few bucks only. Those days are gone!?
very 73 and GL with ur project!
Reid? ?W6MTF? ? ?
|
¡°In France, we're limited to 500W, but I wonder how in the USA you can reach 1 kW without exceeding the maximum Eimac values.¡±
?
how do you reach 1 KW input or output?
?
In France, the power limit is 500W output, or 500W DC input to the final amplifier??
in the US, power was once limited to 1KW DC input to the final amplifier.?
on SSB, that got you about 1200W to 1400W PEP. On CW, ?a class C got you about 750W out. But on AM, a KW input hot you 750W of carrier. At 100% modulation, that would be about 3KW PEP output. You could even get more if you clamp the neg peaks at 95% and it¡¯s possible to hit 175% on your positive peaks for 7x you carrier power, PEP could be up at 5250W PEP out.?
i have never tried it, I was not a ham back in those days when all the big iron stations running the Johnson desktop, invader 2000, BC gates and stuff like a pair of 4-1000 modulated by a pair. But those guys were not happy when the FCC changed the power limits to 1500W output, regardless of mode.?
I have a Viking 2 and a home brew from the design out of QST. My RF deck is from a 1959 QST article, a class C running a pair of 1625s.? my Modulator is from a 1961 QST article. The speech amplifier is a 12AX7 coupled to a 12J5 and coupled to a driver transformer single plate to push pull grids 1625s in class AB1 into the mod iron.?  
|
Yes, power is never calculated with peak voltages. 73 Peter, DJ7WW -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [ham-amplifiers] SB-1000 Datum: 2025-04-16T08:05:53+0200 Von: "Adrian Fewster via groups.io" <vk4tux@...> An: " [email protected]" < [email protected]> With this one to have a power result in watts, don't the formula inputs, re voltage, need to be an average, or rms value rather than peak ? 73 vk4tux On 16/4/25 15:27, Jim VE7RF via groups.io wrote:
I found that formulae buried in 1-2 places? re grid diss.? No clue
where I discovered it.
It is indeed...... Peak cathode voltage X? DC grid current = grid diss.
?
|
If anyone sees this book at a Hamfest, buy it!! This is a great book.? 
|
Brandon DX