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On Oct 30, 2006, at 1:43 PM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., FRANCIS CARCIA <carcia@...>
wrote:

a friend and I had the same problem once with a qro rig and went

with two tall insulated standoffs with a singls strand of RG8
shield. Smaller wire would fuse at lower currents. gfz

## I have used the exact same deal... used one single strand from
the multi strands in the Belden 10 kv test prod wire. One day it
blew. [op error]... and blew right away [no load] when replaced.

### Stuck my dvm between chassis and top of each insulator [all
HV wiring removed at each end, no fuse wire]... and the output
insulator read a DEAD SHORT ! How can a 1.75" tall insulator
read a dead short? Got in with a dentist mirror.... and on the
back side.... it had vapour deposited top to bottom ! Scrubbed
it off... all was well. If that had been the INPUT insulator,,, I
could have easily smoked the 3 A diodes,

3A diodes will do 200a-pk. Not many HV transformers will. The original Plywood Box amplifier used 150a-pk, 2.5A avg diodes in a FWB and the diodes survived at least 4 flashovers to gnd without benefit of a HV fuse.

...
R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

On Oct 30, 2006, at 1:21 PM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

. He needs a 15k or 20k!

RICH SEZ.... Paralleling 3 tubes triples C-feedback, and that

is

not desirable unless one is trying to build an oscillator. The
tube that is best suited for 20k - 35k out is the

8281/4cx15000A.

200w will drive one in AB1.

### So what ?

RICH SEZ... Anecdotal sure-cures don't cut the parasitic mustard.

### Anecdotal??

Yes

Tell that to the 300 guys who run the above
tubes just fine...sans suppressor. IMO... having the grids bolted
right to the chassis IS 99.99% of the stabilty secret.

Probably 90% of 'em will tell us that heavy straps have zero L.

Semi
floated grids on a 3-500Z is just asking for trbl.

My dipmeter says the 3-500 grid resonance frequency is c. 1MHz higher
grounding with caps instead of straps.

...
RICH SEZ... What is Svetlana's price for an 8281?

### RF parts wants $1995.00 for a Svetlana 4x15.... PLUS
another $395.00 for a svetlana SK-300A socket. .. so $2400.00
in total. You can get 2 x new Eimac YC-243's for slightly less...
and crank an easy 30 k out the back door.... and cool em way
easier.

The YC-243 is similar to the 3cx10,000A7 / 8160. Driving a 2-holer
to full throttle would take c. 2600w and the Pi tuned input would be
a handful. A 4cx15000 drives to 60 in with 200w.

### Check the air specs on a 3x 15 or a 4 x 15.... horrendous.
Something like 840 cfm @ 6.4" h20.

Who runs A0?

I saw a FM broadcast Tx
with 2 x 3x15's.... it had a 5 HP- 3 phase blower.... just to
cool em.

... and it sucked up floor tiles.

A lousy analogy woul be like trying to stuff 100 cfm
through a key hole.

Cooling a 4cx15,000A for SSB is way easier.

### These YC-156/YC-179's.. with their almost 19db of gain..

RICH SEZ..... Eimac says the gain is 14.2db at 6kV.

### Who cares what Eimac sez ?

I

...



### Notice how Eimac sez u need 450 w to drive a 3x3 ?

Piece of cake with an SB-200.

That put
hundreds of guys off using that tube for yrs on end. Folks didn't
like the 500 ma zsac either. Turns out with 50 w of drive = 1.5
kw out. 200 w of drive = 5200W out.... and that's with just
4.8 kv under load. The tube is squeaky clean with 150 ma of zsac.
Then along comes the 11m ops... running 8 kv under load.

I heard about Hams back East doing 8kV first. Hams are notorious for
running over-voltage -- like 1500v on 1625s (sic). A Ham friend of
mine ran 8500v mobile to a pair of 4-1000A on 75m. To power it, he
pulled a surplus 10kW, 240v Army motor-generator trailer behind his
GMC truckmobile. The two biggest problems he had was squirreliness
due to the extra gain with that much V, and corona up top. Bananas.

are
the 4-1000 for the new milenium... quick, where's that pole pig ?

### I'm serious....

RICH SEZ... Serious people look at the mfg's spec sheet instead
of speculating.

### So where's all the missing specs for a 3CX-6000A7 in AB-2,
GG ??? Eimac just gives us FM Class C broadcast specs.... turns
out they also quote running ZERO bias. Obviously, with zero
bias... it's in AB-2... NOT class C. They are also quoting near
impossible efficiency numbers... when figuring out their 'typ op
condx' and take plate v x plate I... and their "estimated
output"... and start coming up with ridiculous eff numbers....
meanwhile with zero bias... the tube(s) are more like pushing
Class A region... and cooking on idle.

Eimac to this day can't tell you what the input Z on that tube
is.

In g-g, cathode input-Z fluctuates wildly over the 360?.

And it's not 6 kw anode diss.... it's an easy 9.7 kw.

With hydrogen cooling?

They can't even tell u what the grid current is gonna be....

In AB2 g-g, grid-I depends on how heavily it's loaded. In any event,
grid-I is okay as long as it's tuned for max pep out with max drive.

nor the
specs on the 3x6 for imd either.... turns out the 3x3 and 3x6
are the best imd triodes going.

what Ham transceiver will allow testing of IMD below –40db?

...

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

### If u are gonna parallel a 2 x pole 50A breaker, so it

handles 100 A... you have to do it right.... enter on one
corner...and exit diagonally on the output. Then the current
will split 50-50 on the poles.

RICH SEZ.... At 60Hz?

### Yeah... at 60 hz...... 50hz if u live in EU.

Later

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

On Oct 30, 2006, at 9:01 AM, Frank Goenninger wrote:

Am 30.10.2006 um 12:02 schrieb R L Measures:

RICH SEZ....Hello, Frank == A HV fuse in the secondary does not

protect the HV- transformer any better than a circuit breaker in the
primary. cheerz

Yes, but it might protect a few other parts of the PS...

RICH SEZ....Such as _________?

### Don't get sucked into this arguement Frank.

### Rich..... seen any 10-100 kw broadcast stations... with NO
HV fuse in the B+ ??? I guess their all nuts too.

later.... Jim VE7RF

cheers, Frank

Thanks, Rich, for the heads up.

73, Frank DG1SBG

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

### what have u got against HV fuses Rich?

RICH SEZ.... Do you carry two spare tires in your car? As I see

it, overkill is not good engineering - except perhaps on a moon
mission if I going.

### RL Drake used a .82 ohm 1 watt reistor in the B+ as a HV
fuse.... it always blows

RICH SEZ.... It is not a fuse at 2500v, it was a temporary metal

vapor arc that had a v-drop of c. 20v during the period when it
should have been limiting current.

#### Rich, obviously a .82 ohm resistor is not gonna limit
current. It's in there as a HV fuse.. that's it.... and easily
replaced... either with another .82 ohm-1 watt R... or a single
strand of real small ga wire. Either way... it opens BEFORE the
primary circuit breaker's open up. I have never had the breakers
on all 4 of my L4B's ever open in last 30 yrs.

...

RICH SEZ....The Henry 2k-4 has a resonant-choke filter --

perfect

for 120v operation with virtually no drop in PEP out.

### Trbl is... you would have to run a new heavy duty 20-

30 A 120 V line into the shack to run a Henry 2K-4.. on 120 V.

RICH SEZ... Not true. They run FB on SSB from a 120v, 15a circuit.

####### DREAM ON !! 120v x 15 A = 1800 va To calculate AC
mains VA.... take the DC input in watts and multiply x 1.22 [this
factor's in 10% for core losses.. and another 11% for power
factor]

EG 1500w out/.63 = 2380 w input. 2380 x 1.22 =2904 va. 2904
Va/120 v = 24.2 AMPS !! Ur 120 v line is gonna SAG way b4 the
15 A breaker pops open.. with it's rinky dink 14 ga cu wire.

In
which case, you may as well run a 240V line in the 1st place...
unless u are talking about 600 w pep out on ssb.

RICH SEZ... no, 1500 pep. Resonant-choke filter DC supplies are

wonderful until you have to lift the sucker.

#### Resonant-choke filters, imo... are the most useless bloody
things ever devised.... and don't tell me 50 kw Broadcast
staion's use em.. they don't.... only exception would be if only
single phase power is the only thing available.

### What's wonderful would be 60 hz, 3 phase power like
208/360/400/480 v.... and a 3 phase Dahl plate xfmr... with a 6 x
leg diode stack... and a small-medium C input filter. Then it's
no ripple, [ripple is 6 x F on 3 phase] and superb regulation..
and no ripple on harmonics of 6 x F either. I think the
German's have the right idea all along.



RICH SEZ... A $1 MOV would have prevented the problem.

### Mov's have also burned down many homes too. The newer ones

have internal fuses in em. We alarm all our coffee mug size MOV's
at work... on commercial AC power entrances.. or on the low V side
of vault xfmr's. They are all external fused MOV's. A relay
between output of fuse and input of MOV is norm on. When fuse
pops.. relay drops out... alarm comes on. Thye newer Joslyn
MOV's have 1 microsecond response time.

RICH SEZ...An ordinary 12vDC relay's coil can produce 400v

when

the EM field collapses.

### so what ?

RICH SEZ...ignore 400v?

### read the entire post b4 commenting Rich..... just stick a MOV
across it... end of problem. .... or a rvs connected diode.


### a 48 vdc relay's coil will easily produce 1100V back
emf.... hence the MOV... or bye bye whatever is connected to the
coil.

later... Jim VE7RF

On Oct 30, 2006, at 11:10 AM, pentalab wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

On Oct 30, 2006, at 1:08 AM, Frank Goenninger wrote:

Hi all:

I am about to finish my HV power supply. One thing missing still

is

an appropriate HV fuse to be put between C bank and glitch R.

While

closely examining the pictures in the photos section of this

group I

couldn't find any European manufacturer or distributor of HV

fuses.

I found SIBA () - but they do provide fuses for
even "bigger" applications... I'd need something suitable for

the 3,5

kV / 3 A coming out of my 300 ?F C bank...

Any suggestions? Thx for feedback!

RICH SEZ.... Hello, Frank == A HV fuse in the secondary does not

protect the HV- transformer any better than a circuit breaker in
the primary. cheerz

### What about protecting everything else ???? Short the B+ to
the chassis/ anywhere... and when comparing a fast HV fuse vs the
fastest magnetic hydraulic breaker in the 240 V pri.... the
difference is blatantly obvious.

A transformer overheats way slower than the time it takes to trip a
circuit breaker.

Been there.. done that. The only
thing faster than the fastest breaker is... "rectifier and
semiconductor" pri fuses... available up to sevral hundred amps.
These fuses can be used to supplement a slow breaker.... OR can be
used in cases where the breaker rating is way too high to start
with. [eg: multiple sec HV taps on a plate xfmr... where u want
to run say a single 3CX-800A7 on 6m one day... and 15 kw out the
next day, with a different amp of course.]



### Primary AC protection is way too slow imo. Since my xfmr has
loads of sec taps... I use it at different voltages... so a 100 A
breaker in the primary is too big for some applications. Another
Fix is to use a pair of 50 A double pole breaker's.... and
parallel each pair. By removing the tie-bar between em.... for
50 A operation... one pole on each breaker is shut off.

### If u are gonna parallel a 2 x pole 50A breaker, so it
handles 100 A... you have to do it right.... enter on one
corner...and exit diagonally on the output. Then the current
will split 50-50 on the poles.

At 60Hz?

### This scheme also works on 3 pole breaker's. [which use 2 x
tie bars per breaker] You can parallel all 3 x poles..... and by
removing the 2 x tie bars on each breaker ...... you can have a
50-100-150 A choice. 2 x such assys are always required.... one
per hot leg on a NA single phase, 240 v circuit.

## Bottom line is.... when a HV fuse open up... nothing happens..
no big deal. They are extremely fast under fault conditions...
like <2 msecs.

In my experiences, transformers take longer to over-heat.

Later... Jim VE7RF

73 Frank DG1SBG
...

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

Yahoo! Groups Links

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

On Oct 30, 2006, at 9:01 AM, Frank Goenninger wrote:

Am 30.10.2006 um 12:02 schrieb R L Measures:

Hello, Frank == A HV fuse in the secondary does not protect the HV-
transformer any better than a circuit breaker in the primary. cheerz

Yes, but it might protect a few other parts of the PS...

Such as _________?
cheers, Frank

Thanks, Rich, for the heads up.

73, Frank DG1SBG

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

Hi Peter,

That was medium power... inside the rated plate dissipation ;)

73, Tony

Peter Voelpel wrote:

Hi Tony,

Was that at 12KW output or at low or medium power?
No doubt it will be that high on low power condition...

73
Peter

________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...]
On Behalf Of Tony King - W4ZT

We've seen 17 to 19 dB gain from the 156/179 with 5500 to 6000 Volts on
the plate and that's in more than one amp so it's not a fluke.

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Peter Voelpel" <df3kv@...>
wrote:

________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@...

[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...]

On Behalf Of pentalab

### These YC-156/YC-179's.. with their almost 19db of gain..

RICH SEZ..... Eimac says the gain is 14.2db at 6kV.

### Who cares what Eimac sez ?

### fact is.. on a YC-156/YC-179.. folks are getting a power gain
of 50-60 = 17-17.78 db. 200 w of drive and 7200 V under load

I do not see the almost 19dbs here...
When you raise anode voltage gain will be higher with any tube.
A lot of YC-156 amps are running in Germany, none does more then

17dbs of gain at 6KV

### With low drive.. and 6500-7300 V under load.. Plate Z is up...
gain goes up. Drive em harder... gain goes down.

### Notice how Eimac sez u need 450 w to drive a 3x3 ? That put
hundreds of guys off using that tube for yrs on end. Folks didn't
like the 500 ma zsac either. Turns out with 50 w of drive = 1.5
kw out. 200 w of drive = 5200W out....

Eimac did not say you need 450W to drive a 3x3 to 1,5KW...

### I never said they did. That's what Eimac quotes for full
bore output.

When you use the constant curves of the Eimac data sheet you see

all this. With 4,8KV at the anode you need 280-300W drive for 5,2KW
out(we run 4 monoband amps with that tube).

#### So what did u do to have less gain with 4.8 kv under load ?
You should be able to get at least 5 kw with 200 w of drive. [new
tube] . What Z did u design the tuned input around ?? I'm
finding that a lot of the overall eff has to do with the way the
tuned input is configured... like where the C2 cap actually sits.
How the C2 cap is actually connected to the socket... whether u
introduce a Z bump bwetween C2 and the socket.... and what the Q
of the tuned input is. Run the Q too high.. and power out of the
tuned input drops on the high bands. PI/PI-L on the output
side will change things too. On one of the 4-1000 amps I had
yrs ago, with a roller in it... I started off with the Q on the
high side... then kept increasing the roller uh...[lowering the Q]..
kept retweaking the tune/load caps... and watched the wattmeter
keep going up up up every time... until wattmeter flattens out...
IE:.. decrease Q until you no longer see an increase in power out.

### I gave up on PI-L networks on the output side. I see no
advantage to em at all. The spreadsheets spit out bizzare
values for the most part.. on some bands.. like sky high uh
required on 160m... and real low C1 valus on high bands. I'm not
interested in harmonic suppression... I don't run a MM set up
either. Mono band ant's are not likely to radiate on their 2nd
harmonic anyway [sky high z match]... and most PI-nets have plenty
of 3rd harmonic suppression.

### Imo... I use their number's, as a guidline. Once an amp is

built around their tube.. say a YC-156... and u talk to other
builder's... you get a feel for what kind of zsac is really

needed PER mode...

I rather do my own measurements. Other builders talk like

fishermen, when I visit them I see and measure the

truth ;-)

### partially agreed. I just like to know aprx what every one
else's results are b4 embarking on something. Case in
point..... obtain several same type tubes... and the idle
current, for a given plate v can easily be all over the map. I have
seen this b4... with new Eimac tubes, all built around the same
time period too. Switch to Svetlana....things change a bit. Try
used tubes, and your results could be anywhere. At least with a
spanky new tube/rebuild... you can safely asume that's as good as it
gets.

### I really don't trust any of these Bird/Coaxial Dynamics slugs
either. W7RF tried 2 doz brand new 2.5 kw slugs... and readings
are all over the map. I ordered identical slugs for myself and a
friend... and even they were different.

### Has anybody tried one of the new 20 kw wattmeter's from Array
solutions yet ?

Later... Jim VE7RF

73
Peter

pentalab wrote:
<snip>

### These YC-156/YC-179's.. with their almost 19db of gain..

RICH SEZ..... Eimac says the gain is 14.2db at 6kV.

### Who cares what Eimac sez ? They either don't build amps around these various tubes... or quote.. "estimated" or "calculated" specs. Imo... Eimac makes a tube.... it's up to the end user to make it work right. ### fact is.. on a YC-156/YC-179.. folks are getting a power gain of 50-60 = 17-17.78 db. 200 w of drive and 7200 V under load = 12 k out. 10 k out, with lower plate V. So I guess Eimac's '14.2db' is out to lunch.... who cares... just run the tube the way u see fit.

<snip>
We've seen 17 to 19 dB gain from the 156/179 with 5500 to 6000 Volts on the plate and that's in more than one amp so it's not a fluke.

73, Tony W4ZT

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "zerobeat40" <zerobeat40@...>
wrote:

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

On Oct 29, 2006, at 5:54 AM, pentalab wrote:

---

### well maybe not too stupid. 3 x YC-156's can be had for
$1100.00 vs huge bux for a 4 x 15.[plus socket]

RICH SEZ... What is Svetlana's price for an 8281?

##### They are now $1995.00 socket is $395.00... both svetlana
brand. The Eimac version of both will make u gag.

Last 8281 I bought brand new set me back about $1050, and I think I
had to add a socket. And, the tube's pushing good and hard at 20k,
while a trio of YC-156's is loafing at 30K. Remember, a YC-156 is
actually a 3CX15,000B7 with a smaller cooler.

### agreed. YC-156/YC-179's are everywhere.. and no [failure
prone} socket to mess with. Note to Tony King here. A buddy of
mine asked Eimac if they could take a YC-156... and put the
3CX15,000B7's cooler on it [7.5"]. Eimac said "no way". BTW...
a broadcast engineer school buddy of mine said they had several
problems with the SK-300A socket burning up on the local 100 kw
ERP FM tx here in town.[abt 18 yrs old now] No wonder Eimac
makes "emergency repair" kits for those sockets. The socket
had burned up twice.... b4 1994 [it was only 10 yrs old at that
point]




You CAN push more air (put the amp in another room, please) and run
them quite harder. I have a push-pull broadband pair of YC-156s
here, runs 2MHz to 40MHz braodband, for EMC measurements, driving a
TEM cell. 30kW CW not a problem. Not pushing ANY of the tube's I
or V limits, and with enough air, I keep the seals below 250C.

### These YC-156/YC-179's.. with their almost 19db of gain..

Eimac says the gain is 14.2db at 6kV.

You have to read all the conditions of that gain spec. 14.2dB is
correct with a 600 ohm load-line. That will give you 24kW PER

TUBE. If you're getting 30-35kW from three tubes, you're running
more like a 1500 ohm load line per tube. At a higher RL, the tube
exhibits more gain.

### agreed.


Also, that 14.2dB is conservative - it's into compression at

that point. Cleanly, it's another dB, then add a few more for the
higher RL.

### agreed. Most builder's appear to be getting 17 to 17.8 db
with a single tube.. running 6500 V - 7200 V ..under load. With
higher ratio's of plate load Z to input Z... gain goes UP.. as u
noted.

### 12 k out with 200 w of drive is quite common. IMO... a
lot simpler than mucking about with a 4x10, regulated screen +
bias supplies, roller's across the input globar..+ step up 9:1
trifilars, neutralizing the entire amp, megabuck sockets, etc.
A good used YC-156[$300-$400] beats a new 4x10 + socket any day.
Something to be said for simplicity. Just whack one hole in the
chassis... done. Round up a 10 kva-120 lb 4800 V hypersil pole
pig for very little.. and there's ur 6800 V no load HV supply.

Besides, nobody who's actually designing an amp depends on the
"typical application" data to predict performance.

### agreed.

You calculate gain from the characteristic curves.
### agreed.



At 20kW output and 6.5kV anode, I see YC-156s typically running
at 17dB gain.

### see my previous notes. Depending on used tube condx, ops are
reporting anywhere between 17 to almost 19db of gain.



Most of my experience in broadcasting with them was with the
3CX15,000B7 version, but they work the same...the YC-156 just needs
to be blasted with lots more air.

are
the 4-1000 for the new milenium... quick, where's that pole

pig ?

### I'm serious....

Serious people look at the mfg's spec sheet instead of

speculating.

Exactamundo. The grounded-grid curves for the YC-156 will predict

all the figures he gave. You just have to know how to use them, and

that's happily explained in "Care and Feeding."

### agreed... like zsac for a given plate V, grid current, plate
current, etc. Heck, I still have the origional Eimac... "tube
performance computer" ! [clear plastic overlay device, when
doing load lines] ... still works, still use it.

Later.... Jim VE7RF

cheers, Jim


R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@, www.somis.org

________________________________

From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...]
On Behalf Of pentalab

### These YC-156/YC-179's.. with their almost 19db of gain..

RICH SEZ..... Eimac says the gain is 14.2db at 6kV.

### Who cares what Eimac sez ?

### fact is.. on a YC-156/YC-179.. folks are getting a power gain
of 50-60 = 17-17.78 db. 200 w of drive and 7200 V under load

I do not see the almost 19dbs here...
When you raise anode voltage gain will be higher with any tube.
A lot of YC-156 amps are running in Germany, none does more then 17dbs of
gain at 6KV

### Notice how Eimac sez u need 450 w to drive a 3x3 ? That put
hundreds of guys off using that tube for yrs on end. Folks didn't
like the 500 ma zsac either. Turns out with 50 w of drive = 1.5
kw out. 200 w of drive = 5200W out....

Eimac did not say you need 450W to drive a 3x3 to 1,5KW...
When you use the constant curves of the Eimac data sheet you see all this.
With 4,8KV at the anode you need 280-300W drive for 5,2KW out(we run 4
monoband amps with that tube).

### Imo... I use their number's, as a guidline. Once an amp is built
around their tube.. say a YC-156... and u talk to other builder's...
you get a feel for what kind of zsac is really
needed PER mode...

I rather do my own measurements.
Other builders talk like fishermen, when I visit them I see and measure the
truth ;-)

73
Peter

Tony King - W4ZT wrote:
<snip>

I will measure this tomorrow and report back the difference between the
measured anode to grid capacitance unmounted and sub-mounted.

Regarding YC-156/179 sub-mounted capacitance.

I measured this today on a YC-179. Sitting on the counter top grid to anode measured 40.85 pF. Sub-mounted in a chassis it measured 44.67 pF.

73, Tony W4ZT

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., FRANCIS CARCIA <carcia@...>
wrote:

a friend and I had the same problem once with a qro rig and went

with two tall insulated standoffs with a singls strand of RG8
shield. Smaller wire would fuse at lower currents. gfz

## I have used the exact same deal... used one single strand from
the multi strands in the Belden 10 kv test prod wire. One day it
blew. [op error]... and blew right away [no load] when replaced.

### Stuck my dvm between chassis and top of each insulator [all
HV wiring removed at each end, no fuse wire]... and the output
insulator read a DEAD SHORT ! How can a 1.75" tall insulator
read a dead short? Got in with a dentist mirror.... and on the
back side.... it had vapour deposited top to bottom ! Scrubbed
it off... all was well. If that had been the INPUT insulator,,, I
could have easily smoked the 3 A diodes, or something else in the
supply. Started using sandilled HV fuses after that.[ I now also
use nothing but 6A10 diodes... cheap. 1 kv-6A CCS 400 A surge,
exactly double the diam of a 1N5408... same ga wires out each
end... and same body length. You can retrofit a 1N5408 with a 6A10
very easily... they run like warm with 2 A CCS DC through em in a
test jig, a 1N5408 runs look warm with 1 A in same test jig].

### Now my buddy ate up his supply of sandfilled fuses.... so in
desperation one night.... soldered a single strand of real small
ga wire across a blown sandfilled fuse.... THEN wrapped it
with scotch 77 tape ! Now this works slick, cuz when it
blows... NO vapour deposit flying about. This way u can RE-
USE em, if needed... over and over again.

## A 2-6" long piece of round ceramic in 2 x clips, would do
exactly the same thing.... then tape the exposed fuse wire.

Later... Jim VE7RF

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

. He needs a 15k or 20k!

RICH SEZ.... Paralleling 3 tubes triples C-feedback, and that

is

not desirable unless one is trying to build an oscillator. The
tube that is best suited for 20k - 35k out is the

8281/4cx15000A.

200w will drive one in AB1.

### So what ?

RICH SEZ... Anecdotal sure-cures don't cut the parasitic mustard.

### Anecdotal?? Tell that to the 300 guys who run the above
tubes just fine...sans suppressor. IMO... having the grids bolted
right to the chassis IS 99.99% of the stabilty secret. Semi
floated grids on a 3-500Z is just asking for trbl.

Just install a globar type suppressor in each anode
lead. As is, the single YC-156 runs just fine wtih NO

suppressor at all.. and that's with it .75pf of feed through C
to boot. The single 3CX-3000A7 runs just fine sans suppressor
with it's .6 pf of feedthrough C. The 3CX-6000A7 has just .28
pf of feedthrough C. We can probably toss the suppressor on
that amp as well. At this rate, we can put globar outa business.

### well maybe not too stupid. 3 x YC-156's can be had for
$1100.00 vs huge bux for a 4 x 15.[plus socket]

RICH SEZ... What is Svetlana's price for an 8281?

### RF parts wants $1995.00 for a Svetlana 4x15.... PLUS
another $395.00 for a svetlana SK-300A socket. .. so $2400.00
in total. You can get 2 x new Eimac YC-243's for slightly less...
and crank an easy 30 k out the back door.... and cool em way
easier.

### Check the air specs on a 3x 15 or a 4 x 15.... horrendous.
Something like 840 cfm @ 6.4" h20. I saw a FM broadcast Tx
with 2 x 3x15's.... it had a 5 HP- 3 phase blower.... just to
cool em. A lousy analogy woul be like trying to stuff 100 cfm
through a key hole.

### These YC-156/YC-179's.. with their almost 19db of gain..

RICH SEZ..... Eimac says the gain is 14.2db at 6kV.

### Who cares what Eimac sez ? They either don't build amps
around these various tubes... or quote.. "estimated"
or "calculated" specs. Imo... Eimac makes a tube.... it's up
to the end user to make it work right.

### fact is.. on a YC-156/YC-179.. folks are getting a power gain
of 50-60 = 17-17.78 db. 200 w of drive and 7200 V under load =
12 k out. 10 k out, with lower plate V. So I guess
Eimac's '14.2db' is out to lunch.... who cares... just run the
tube the way u see fit.




### Notice how Eimac sez u need 450 w to drive a 3x3 ? That put
hundreds of guys off using that tube for yrs on end. Folks didn't
like the 500 ma zsac either. Turns out with 50 w of drive = 1.5
kw out. 200 w of drive = 5200W out.... and that's with just
4.8 kv under load. The tube is squeaky clean with 150 ma of zsac.
Then along comes the 11m ops... running 8 kv under load.

are
the 4-1000 for the new milenium... quick, where's that pole

pig ?

### I'm serious....

RICH SEZ... Serious people look at the mfg's spec sheet instead of

speculating.

### So where's all the missing specs for a 3CX-6000A7 in AB-2,
GG ??? Eimac just gives us FM Class C broadcast specs.... turns
out they also quote running ZERO bias. Obviously, with zero
bias... it's in AB-2... NOT class C. They are also quoting near
impossible efficiency numbers... when figuring out their 'typ op
condx' and take plate v x plate I... and their "estimated
output"... and start coming up with ridiculous eff numbers....
meanwhile with zero bias... the tube(s) are more like pushing
Class A region... and cooking on idle.

Eimac to this day can't tell you what the input Z on that tube
is. And it's not 6 kw anode diss.... it's an easy 9.7 kw. They
can't even tell u what the grid current is gonna be.... nor the
specs on the 3x6 for imd either.... turns out the 3x3 and 3x6
are the best imd triodes going. Check out their Blue 'erata
sheet'... that comes with their latest catalog.... doz's of
typo's and specs wrong.... plus a bunch more I found... that are
not listed. ..go figure.

Imo... I use their number's, as a guidline. Once an amp is built
around their tube.. say a YC-156... and u talk to other builder's...
you get a feel for what kind of zsac is really
needed PER mode... what to expect with XXX plate V... and ditto
with drive levels.... then you end up with ur own "typ op condx" +
hence... find an optimum set of condx to run the tube(s) at.

Later......... Jim VE7RF

cheers, Jim


R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org

a friend and?I had the same problem once with a qro rig and went with two tall insulated standoffs with a singls strand of RG8 shield. Smaller wire would fuse at lower currents. gfz

pentalab wrote:

speaking of fuse clips. do any of you guys know where?I can get some big clips for fixed vacuum caps like used in the BC610 padder cap. I need to add a padder to my antenna tuner for 160 meters. I think the end of the cap contact is about 3/4 inch od.

Frank Goenninger wrote:

Am 30.10.2006 um 19:46 schrieb pentalab:

#### SSON [surplus sales of nebraska] has tons of Buss HV
fuses. The HVU-3 is what I use. [rated at 3A @ 5 kv AC]
These are 13/16" diam on the ends, and fit standard 3/4" fuse
clips. The fuse itself is 13/16" diam x 5" long. They have the
3/4" clips too... in 2 x diff styles.... I use the slightly better
ones... with the end retainers. That way, once inserted... they
CAN'T slide out. Good, cause mine are mounted vertically in
several of my many HV supplies.

;-) Worth to remember when choosing to put them vertically.

### You can still get em new... on Cooper Bussman's
website ,buried under HV fuses. The HVU series above is
sandfilled, u can also get em without the sand..... and a lower max
interupting current rating. The new ones all have ceramic bodies,
these surplus ones all have glass bodies.

Just looked on the UK web site of Cooper Bussman and found a German distributor (a mere 100 km away from where I live. Good!) - Thanks!

### The 120mm long ones available in EU should also work. I'd
place any HV fuse BEFORE the glitch R, not after.... just in case
the glitch R comes apart... and touches the chassis/metal. I
also insert a 2nd HV fuse [in one leg only on a single phase xfmr]
between xfmr sec... and diode board.

Yes, that's what I had in mind, too. Although the SKN3F20/08 diodes I use are of the more rugged type... ;-)

later... Jim VE7RF

Thanks again!

73, Frank DG1SBG

--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:

On Oct 30, 2006, at 1:08 AM, Frank Goenninger wrote:

Hi all:

I am about to finish my HV power supply. One thing missing still

is

an appropriate HV fuse to be put between C bank and glitch R.

While

closely examining the pictures in the photos section of this

group I

couldn't find any European manufacturer or distributor of HV

fuses.

I found SIBA () - but they do provide fuses for
even "bigger" applications... I'd need something suitable for

the 3,5

kV / 3 A coming out of my 300 ?F C bank...

Any suggestions? Thx for feedback!

RICH SEZ.... Hello, Frank == A HV fuse in the secondary does not

protect the HV- transformer any better than a circuit breaker in
the primary. cheerz

### What about protecting everything else ???? Short the B+ to
the chassis/ anywhere... and when comparing a fast HV fuse vs the
fastest magnetic hydraulic breaker in the 240 V pri.... the
difference is blatantly obvious. Been there.. done that. The only
thing faster than the fastest breaker is... "rectifier and
semiconductor" pri fuses... available up to sevral hundred amps.
These fuses can be used to supplement a slow breaker.... OR can be
used in cases where the breaker rating is way too high to start
with. [eg: multiple sec HV taps on a plate xfmr... where u want
to run say a single 3CX-800A7 on 6m one day... and 15 kw out the
next day, with a different amp of course.]



### Primary AC protection is way too slow imo. Since my xfmr has
loads of sec taps... I use it at different voltages... so a 100 A
breaker in the primary is too big for some applications. Another
Fix is to use a pair of 50 A double pole breaker's.... and
parallel each pair. By removing the tie-bar between em.... for
50 A operation... one pole on each breaker is shut off.

### If u are gonna parallel a 2 x pole 50A breaker, so it
handles 100 A... you have to do it right.... enter on one
corner...and exit diagonally on the output. Then the current
will split 50-50 on the poles.

### This scheme also works on 3 pole breaker's. [which use 2 x
tie bars per breaker] You can parallel all 3 x poles..... and by
removing the 2 x tie bars on each breaker ...... you can have a
50-100-150 A choice. 2 x such assys are always required.... one
per hot leg on a NA single phase, 240 v circuit.

## Bottom line is.... when a HV fuse open up... nothing happens..
no big deal. They are extremely fast under fault conditions...
like <2 msecs.

Later... Jim VE7RF

73 Frank DG1SBG
...

R L Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734
r@..., , rlm@..., www.somis.org