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On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 01:30 AM, Drew Derbyshire wrote:
Zowe way?
On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 09:34 AM, Martin Scheffler wrote:
No feedback ... are editors much less significant in the (emulated) mainframe community now since most people are doing it the Zowe way ?
Look how IBM teaches the z/OS basics to mainframe beginners: no 3270 access. begins with installing Visual Studio Code and the Zowe extension. Source code editing is done on the PC, Zowe cares for the upload to the mainframe. I must admit: I am doing the EE development the IND$FILE way, using KEDIT for Windows as my principal editor for decades. Martin
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I don't understand why people aren't using VM/CMS to work on VM/CMS. I only use VM through?3270 emulation to work on the VMCE bug fixes and enhancements. That's what I used on my first VM/370 system in 1974, and it makes me feel young!! Why are you using on VM/370, if you don't want that real experience? Bob? Bolch
On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 01:30 AM, Drew Derbyshire wrote:
Zowe way?
On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 09:34 AM, Martin Scheffler wrote:
No feedback ... are editors much less significant in the (emulated) mainframe community now since most people are doing it the Zowe way ?
Look how IBM teaches the z/OS basics to mainframe beginners: no 3270 access.
begins with installing Visual Studio Code and the Zowe extension.
Source code editing is done on the PC, Zowe cares for the upload to the mainframe.
I must admit: I am doing the EE development the IND$FILE way, using KEDIT for Windows as my principal editor for decades.
Martin
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Bob, I am with you 100%. I have VM to use VM through 3270 emulation. Dave ? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bob Bolch
Sent: 14 November 2022 12:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] #VMCE #rexx EE goes XEDIT - compiling a wish list? I don't understand why people aren't using VM/CMS to work on VM/CMS. I only use VM through?3270 emulation to work on the VMCE bug fixes and enhancements. That's what I used on my first VM/370 system in 1974, and it makes me feel young!! Why are you using on VM/370, if you don't want that real experience? ? On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 01:30 AM, Drew Derbyshire wrote: Zowe way?
On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 09:34 AM, Martin Scheffler wrote: No feedback ... are editors much less significant in the (emulated) mainframe community now since most people are doing it the Zowe way ?
Look how IBM teaches the z/OS basics to mainframe beginners: no 3270 access.
begins with installing Visual Studio Code and the Zowe extension.
Source code editing is done on the PC, Zowe cares for the upload to the mainframe.
I must admit: I am doing the EE development the IND$FILE way, using KEDIT for Windows as my principal editor for decades.
Martin
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On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 01:32 PM, Bob Bolch wrote:
my first VM/370 system in 1974
I was 23 when my university migrated from ICL 1900/GEORGE3-4 to IBM 4341+VM/SP 1 in 1982. This meant XEDIT from the beginning and EXEC 2. Nobody cared for older editors. I'd need an EXEC 2 interpreter for a full retro experience ;-) I do not have the historic experience of a VM system without XEDIT. XEDIT became my prototype of how powerful an editor can be and SHOULD be. I had big difficulties in learning to use EE because many capabilities of XEDIT VM/SP 1 were missing. Martin
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Hi,
I agree with you on the need for XEdit (or similar) on VM/CE.? EE looking like XEdit is the goal.
I use KEdit presently.
On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 01:32 PM, Bob Bolch wrote:
my first VM/370 system in 1974
I was 23 when my university migrated from ICL 1900/GEORGE3-4 to IBM 4341+VM/SP 1 in 1982. This meant XEDIT from the beginning and EXEC 2. Nobody cared for older editors. I'd need an EXEC 2 interpreter for a full retro experience ;-)
I do not have the historic experience of a VM system without XEDIT. XEDIT became my prototype of how powerful an editor can be and SHOULD be. I had big difficulties in learning to use EE because many capabilities of XEDIT VM/SP 1 were missing.
Martin
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About cloning XEDIT
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On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 07:39 PM, Bertram Moshier wrote:
I use KEdit presently.
Quote from https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/01/14/structure
Writing the initial version of Kedit took him about four months, in late 1982. Like a newborn bear cub, it amounted to the first one per cent of what it would eventually become. “There are two kinds of editors,” Kearney continued. “One sees things as characters; Kedit sees it as a bunch of lines. It’s more primitive, in a sense, like keypunches. Each line is like one card.” He said he started with “some things from Xedit plus suggestions from others,” and his goal was “convenient text editing.” After a pause, he added, “I’d rather have Kedit be a good text editor than a bad word processor.” He asked me to take care not to create an impression that he invented much of anything. “What I did was package in a useful way a number of ideas. I.B.M. seemed happy enough with the cloning. There was no hint that they objected.”
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Hi, There was the editor “EDIT” and “EDGAR” before: ? ?EDGAR (the “Display Editing System”) was a full-screen editor product written by IBMerBob Carroll which came out in 1976?Edgar was the first full-screen editor IBM made available to customers, although customers had previously written and distributed full-screen editors themselves ?XEDIT was written by IBMerXavier de Lamberterieas a full-screen 3270 editor?XEDIT supported macros written in EXEC and EXEC2 (and later REXX) ?Inside IBM, there was a “war” on which editor to include in VM/SP to replace the line mode editor, EDIT, so a vote was held and XEDIT won and was released in 1980 in VM/SP Release 1 ?Within no time, programmers and end users were building large, sophisticated applications based entirely on XEDIT, stretching it to its limits and doing things with it that IBM had never envisioned ? EDGAR manual: ? ? ? Best regards Mike ? ? Hi, I agree with you on the need for XEdit (or similar) on VM/CE.? EE looking like XEdit is the goal. ?
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On Mon, Nov 14, 2022, 08:15 Martin Scheffler < San-Lorenzo@...> wrote: On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 01:32 PM, Bob Bolch wrote: my first VM/370 system in 1974
I was 23 when my university migrated from ICL 1900/GEORGE3-4 to IBM 4341+VM/SP 1 in 1982. This meant XEDIT from the beginning and EXEC 2. Nobody cared for older editors. I'd need an EXEC 2 interpreter for a full retro experience ;-)
I do not have the historic experience of a VM system without XEDIT. XEDIT became my prototype of how powerful an editor can be and SHOULD be. I had big difficulties in learning to use EE because many capabilities of XEDIT VM/SP 1 were missing.
Martin
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Hi,
I remember EDGAR and at the time, I thought IBM should have shipped both XEdit and EDGAR in VM/SP.
On Mon, Nov 14, 2022, 13:36 Mike Beer < mike@...> wrote: Hi, There was the editor “EDIT” and “EDGAR” before: ? ?EDGAR (the “Display Editing System”) was a full-screen editor product written by IBMerBob Carroll which came out in 1976?Edgar was the first full-screen editor IBM made available to customers, although customers had previously written and distributed full-screen editors themselves ?XEDIT was written by IBMerXavier de Lamberterieas a full-screen 3270 editor?XEDIT supported macros written in EXEC and EXEC2 (and later REXX) ?Inside IBM, there was a “war” on which editor to include in VM/SP to replace the line mode editor, EDIT, so a vote was held and XEDIT won and was released in 1980 in VM/SP Release 1 ?Within no time, programmers and end users were building large, sophisticated applications based entirely on XEDIT, stretching it to its limits and doing things with it that IBM had never envisioned
? EDGAR manual:
?
?
? Best regards Mike ? ? Hi, I agree with you on the need for XEdit (or similar) on VM/CE.? EE looking like XEdit is the goal. ? On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 01:32 PM, Bob Bolch wrote: my first VM/370 system in 1974
I was 23 when my university migrated from ICL 1900/GEORGE3-4 to IBM 4341+VM/SP 1 in 1982. This meant XEDIT from the beginning and EXEC 2. Nobody cared for older editors. I'd need an EXEC 2 interpreter for a full retro experience ;-)
I do not have the historic experience of a VM system without XEDIT. XEDIT became my prototype of how powerful an editor can be and SHOULD be. I had big difficulties in learning to use EE because many capabilities of XEDIT VM/SP 1 were missing.
Martin
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XEDIT macro's could not be written in classic EXEC (reason why an XEDIT macro doesn't need to start with &TRACE).
One obviously could place XEDIT subcommand in the stack using classic EXEC and then invoke XEDIT, but that doesn't make it an XEDIT macro.? But, EXEC2 appeared alongside XEDIT, and the syntax very similar, se we switched directly to EXEC2.
To feel young, I'd need to code again classic EXECs, with their limitation of 8 byte tokens.? To bypass that limit, execs needed to modify themselves while running: what was inside a &BEGSTACK command and &END (?) what not tokenized.? I did forget what commands we had to our disposal in our EXECs to modify the exec.? EXECIO didn't exist yet, maybe we used stacked commands for EDIT?? No, it wasn't easy for an exec to build something with "words" longer than 8 characters.
--
Kris Buelens
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You might wonder why I am quiet.
New difficulties arise, and more legwork shows up that has to be done first.
Performance might be an issue, now with the macro capability and the ALL command working in alpha stage.
I am actually busy with the PUT command. Much of the existing code is shared with FILE/SAVE which I cannot afford to break. There is some behaviour of the PUT command that I cannot change to make it act like XEDIT and KEDIT do. However, PUT will benefit from the selective editing capability availabe through the ALL command.
There are a lot of other important commands however (e.g. COPY, DELETE) , where SET SCOPE DISPLAY is still completely ignored.
Martin
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Ummm, fix BREXX?? Who maintains it?
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Hi Drew, I have done minor fixes over the last 2 tears, but no one is actively maintaining it. The major (and only reported) bug with parse is present on all platform versions of BREXX. Do you have a new issue? Bob
On Thu, Nov 17, 2022, 1:19 PM Drew Derbyshire < swhobbit@...> wrote: Ummm, fix BREXX?? Who maintains it?
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Drew, And if we get stuck I can have a look too. Dave ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bob Bolch
Sent: 17 November 2022 19:20
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] #VMCE #rexx EE goes XEDIT - compiling a wish list? Hi Drew, I have done minor fixes over the last 2 tears, but no one is actively maintaining it. The major (and only reported) bug with parse is present on all platform versions of BREXX. Do you have a new issue? ? On Thu, Nov 17, 2022, 1:19 PM Drew Derbyshire <swhobbit@...> wrote: Ummm, fix BREXX?? Who maintains it?
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 11:03 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
It would also be nice to see betas etc.
Actually my binaries are bleeding edge - not beta quality, not alpha quality - should I call this zulu quality ? However such a binary would allow to demonstrate some changed behaviour and new features. What quality of preview release do you expect ? Is it enough to place a VMARC in the 'files area' with two modules inside ? Martin
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There are minor BREXX changes to support using the IBM FBLOCK interface to allow EXECs with filetype 'EE' . It's not so easy to beta test BREXX, because of the? VMCE integration. It might be simpler to test using filetype 'EXEC' for EE macros, and change them to filetype 'EE' later. I see any EE changes as going out in a new VMCE release.
Bob Bolch
On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 11:03 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
It would also be nice to see betas etc.
Actually my binaries are bleeding edge - not beta quality, not alpha quality - should I call this zulu quality ?
However such a binary would allow to demonstrate some changed behaviour and new features.
What quality of preview release do you expect ? Is it enough to place a VMARC in the 'files area' with two modules inside ?
Martin
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Martin, ? Thank you for the work you have done so far. I am really keen to have a play. I think you call it a “bleeding edge snapshot” or perhaps a “technology pre-view” but when you feel you are ready for a bit of feedback. And can I ask every one else (note to me) to try and be positive about what you deliver. ? Dave P.S. ?I am currently looking at some old applications, so CSMP an analogue computer simulator, and an early version of the SPICE circuit simulator. These are the sort of things VM was used for. If ant one has any suggestions for other applications, I am always looking for things to try. ? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Martin Scheffler
Sent: 17 November 2022 21:07
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] #VMCE #rexx EE goes XEDIT - compiling a wish list? On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 11:03 AM, Dave Wade wrote: It would also be nice to see betas etc.
Actually my binaries are bleeding edge - not beta quality, not alpha quality - should I call this zulu quality ?
However such a binary would allow to demonstrate some changed behaviour and new features.
What quality of preview release do you expect ? Is it enough to place a VMARC in the 'files area' with two modules inside ?
Martin
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On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 10:27 PM, Bob Bolch wrote:
It might be simpler to test using filetype 'EXEC' for EE macros,
and change them to filetype 'EE' later.
Actually I type (or set a PF key to) "CMS EXEC <filename> <arguments>" to run an editor macro. The macro must have an 'address' statement inside, I personally am tempted to write '/* REXX */ address "XEDIT"' as the first line. Martin
?
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This is a Bleeding Edge Snapshot - Use At Your Own Risk EE V1.3.0_221118-1307 Binaries uploaded to /g/h390-vm/files/MECAFF%20tools:%20fixes%20and%20features/EE181307.VMARCModules only, no docs I'll need a long hot shower first and will type some release notes later. (Where is the PANIC button ? Use the CANCEL/CC command to close the editor. Type R if you are curious. Type R1 to walk.) Martin
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I am still sick since more than two months. I have paused all programming and documentation efforts.
It is not directly threatening but it makes me unable to think.
Martin
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Martin Scheffler