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Hi,
I have three questions.? As a side note, I'm a ham radio operator (WB8ERT) and use DMR.
My left field question would be for fellow ham radio operators.? I understand getting a PI-Raspberry to operate as? a transmit and receive DMR.? Just for fun, I'm wondering about doing the same using VM.? Is it possible, in theory?? I think it should be possible.? The DMR code is in C.? SIO to send and receive and yet . . .
Middle question:? What is involved in getting herc to see a new device that would then be seen by VM?? I know from my work at Cray Research, Inc, creating hardware for S/370 systems is possible.? We had two hardware devices to talk to a Cray.? One looked like a CTC to the S/370 and the other was by Network Systems.? To our Station software, they looked very similar.? I also worked on the Seagate STK4400 to Cray-1 and Cray-2 interface (using tape connected to the Cray and a 3270 hardware (as I remember) to control the STK for S/370 systems.
Right field:? Is there an HTTPD for VM/CE? By this I mean a HTTP server for VM/CE?? OH, is it possible again on VM/CE to run a line by line browser.? (Yeah, I remember using the Internet using a line by line browser (but not on VM).? We connected to an Unix system for our Internet work.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
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On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 10:21 AM, Bertram Moshier wrote:
Right field:? Is there an HTTPD for VM/CE?
There is no TCP/IP in VM/CE. See - an early IBM implementation. Martin
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The answer to your middle question is A LOT of work. ?All of it in C and coded to Hercules internal constructs.
However, there is no need to create a "new" device for Internet connectivity. ?The issue is not Hercules, but the guest OS (VM I am assuming) lacks TCP/IP intelligence. ?At this vintage of guest operating system, Hercules offers the TCPIP instruction. ?It allows non-privileged access to the host's native TCP interface for connecting to a host socket. ?This interface has been used to support TCP on MVS. ?What VM/370 work would be required to allow a CMS virtual machine to do the same is an unanswered question.
There are a number of "devices" already supported by Hercules for IP connectivity. ?Again, this vintage of VM knows nothing about these Hercules devices, per se. ?Someone who understands the internals of VM/370 would be able to assist with connecting such a device to a CMS guest. ?Some of these device uses CTC channel protocol that VM/370 understands. ?I think the work there is much less. ?Getting CMS the "intelligence" to use the CTC device is another challenge. ?The MVS programs that use the TCPIP instruction might provide a foundation for coding a server or client program.
Just a few thoughts on your "middle" question.
Harold Grovesteen
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On Mon, 2022-10-17 at 03:21 -0500, Bertram Moshier wrote: Hi,
I have three questions.? As a side note, I'm a ham radio operator (WB8ERT) and use DMR.
My left field question would be for fellow ham radio operators.? I understand getting a PI-Raspberry to operate as? a transmit and receive DMR.? Just for fun, I'm wondering about doing the same using VM.? Is it possible, in theory?? I think it should be possible.? The DMR code is in C.? SIO to send and receive and yet . . .
Middle question:? What is involved in getting herc to see a new device that would then be seen by VM?? I know from my work at Cray Research, Inc, creating hardware for S/370 systems is possible.? We had two hardware devices to talk to a Cray.? One looked like a CTC to the S/370 and the other was by Network Systems.? To our Station software, they looked very similar.? I also worked on the Seagate STK4400 to Cray-1 and Cray-2 interface (using tape connected to the Cray and a 3270 hardware (as I remember) to control the STK for S/370 systems.
Right field:? Is there an HTTPD for VM/CE? By this I mean a HTTP server for VM/CE?? OH, is it possible again on VM/CE to run a line by line browser.? (Yeah, I remember using the Internet using a line by line browser (but not on VM).? We connected to an Unix system for our Internet work.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
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Bertram, ? I think it would be challenging to get any “C” code similar the “Pi” DMR code to run on zVM where you have a modern “C” compiler. The “C” compiler in VM/370 is rather old, and the library is the C90 library so is missing many of the routines modern code requires. In addition, you are limited to a 16Mb virtual machine, unless you start with fiddles. (My calls are G4UGM and EA7KAE) ? As other have said adding devices isn’t so hard so long as it approximates to an existing device. Its common to use a pair of devices as many of the device VM supports are treated as semi-half duples. So when I worked on and X25 package for VM we used a Series/1 which emulated a pair of 3270 screens to pass the X25 traffic into VM ? As others have said, there is no TCPIP support in VM/370 CE There are fiddles but I am not sure how well these work, I have never tried them. The IBM “FAL” code which used a service machine to handle the hardware, and then the user VMs used VMCF to pass the TCPIP traffic to the service VM In theory this approach could be used in VM/370 CE as it has VMCF support but it’s a lot of code to write. ? Whilst there are line-by-line browsers I have found them pretty much un-usable on the modern internet…… ? Dave ? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bertram Moshier
Sent: 17 October 2022 09:21
To: [email protected]
Subject: [h390-vm] Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)? Hi, I have three questions.? As a side note, I'm a ham radio operator (WB8ERT) and use DMR. My left field question would be for fellow ham radio operators.? I understand getting a PI-Raspberry to operate as? a transmit and receive DMR.? Just for fun, I'm wondering about doing the same using VM.? Is it possible, in theory?? I think it should be possible.? The DMR code is in C.? SIO to send and receive and yet . . . Middle question:? What is involved in getting herc to see a new device that would then be seen by VM?? I know from my work at Cray Research, Inc, creating hardware for S/370 systems is possible.? We had two hardware devices to talk to a Cray.? One looked like a CTC to the S/370 and the other was by Network Systems.? To our Station software, they looked very similar.? I also worked on the Seagate STK4400 to Cray-1 and Cray-2 interface (using tape connected to the Cray and a 3270 hardware (as I remember) to control the STK for S/370 systems. Right field:? Is there an HTTPD for VM/CE? By this I mean a HTTP server for VM/CE?? OH, is it possible again on VM/CE to run a line by line browser.? (Yeah, I remember using the Internet using a line by line browser (but not on VM).? We connected to an Unix system for our Internet work. Thank you for your time and consideration.
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The IBM “FAL” code which used a service machine to handle the > hardware, and then the user VMs used VMCF to pass the TCPIP traffic > to the service VM Pretty sure all of the versions I met used IUCV, not VMCF. De
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dennis Boone
Sent: 17 October 2022 21:35
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right
field question)
> The IBM “FAL” code which used a service machine to handle the > hardware,
and then the user VMs used VMCF to pass the TCPIP traffic > to the service VM
Pretty sure all of the versions I met used IUCV, not VMCF. You youngster. The original version used VMCF but IUCV was added as an option later.
De
Dave
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Hello,
I'm assuming the work necessary to get VM/CE to recognize the OSI 7 layer model is the same as on any hardware supporting the Internet, right?
I mean Hercules needs to look like real iron.? Thus someone with the legal right would be able to take z/VM or VM/ESA have it run - unmodified on Hercules.
So, the work to get VM/CE to support the OSI 7 layer model would be about the same as what it took IBM to do initially.? Am I?missing something?
Thank you
The answer to your middle question is A LOT of work.? All of it in C and coded to Hercules internal constructs.
However, there is no need to create a "new" device for Internet connectivity.? The issue is not Hercules, but the guest OS (VM I am assuming) lacks TCP/IP intelligence.? At this vintage of guest operating system, Hercules offers the TCPIP instruction.? It allows non-privileged access to the host's native TCP interface for connecting to a host socket.? This interface has been used to support TCP on MVS.? What VM/370 work would be required to allow a CMS virtual machine to do the same is an unanswered question.
There are a number of "devices" already supported by Hercules for IP connectivity.? Again, this vintage of VM knows nothing about these Hercules devices, per se.? Someone who understands the internals of VM/370 would be able to assist with connecting such a device to a CMS guest.? Some of these device uses CTC channel protocol that VM/370 understands.? I think the work there is much less.? Getting CMS the "intelligence" to use the CTC device is another challenge.? The MVS programs that use the TCPIP instruction might provide a foundation for coding a server or client program.
Just a few thoughts on your "middle" question.
Harold Grovesteen
On Mon, 2022-10-17 at 03:21 -0500, Bertram Moshier wrote: Hi,
I have three questions.? As a side note, I'm a ham radio operator (WB8ERT) and use DMR.
My left field question would be for fellow ham radio operators.? I understand getting a PI-Raspberry to operate as? a transmit and receive DMR.? Just for fun, I'm wondering about doing the same using VM.? Is it possible, in theory?? I think it should be possible.? The DMR code is in C.? SIO to send and receive and yet . . .
Middle question:? What is involved in getting herc to see a new device that would then be seen by VM?? I know from my work at Cray Research, Inc, creating hardware for S/370 systems is possible.? We had two hardware devices to talk to a Cray.? One looked like a CTC to the S/370 and the other was by Network Systems.? To our Station software, they looked very similar.? I also worked on the Seagate STK4400 to Cray-1 and Cray-2 interface (using tape connected to the Cray and a 3270 hardware (as I remember) to control the STK for S/370 systems.
Right field:? Is there an HTTPD for VM/CE? By this I mean a HTTP server for VM/CE?? OH, is it possible again on VM/CE to run a line by line browser.? (Yeah, I remember using the Internet using a line by line browser (but not on VM).? We connected to an Unix system for our Internet work.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
|
Martin,
Thank you for the information / link.
Bert
On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 10:21 AM, Bertram Moshier wrote:
Right field:? Is there an HTTPD for VM/CE?
There is no TCP/IP in VM/CE.
See - an early IBM implementation.
Martin
|
Harold,
Support for TCP/IP would include the physical layer of the OSI model.? Thus Hercules would need to support the myriad?number of devices one can hook to the IBM iron.? Now I see a large part of the problem.? I was just thinking of the OSI model, itself.
When working at Cray, I spent over 2 years dealing with and programming various parts of the OSI model on Cray and OS/2.? We were working on porting the model to these software and hardware platforms.? Of course, others were providing the drivers for the hardware.
It would be really nice to have this for VM/CE, but you're right it would be a team effort.
(From my perspective, at the higher layers (3+) the various devices (like all the SNA devices) didn't matter.)
I'd be happy to join a future team looking at adding the OSI 7 layer (better known as TCP/I:) to VM/CE.
Bert.
The answer to your middle question is A LOT of work.? All of it in C and coded to Hercules internal constructs.
However, there is no need to create a "new" device for Internet connectivity.? The issue is not Hercules, but the guest OS (VM I am assuming) lacks TCP/IP intelligence.? At this vintage of guest operating system, Hercules offers the TCPIP instruction.? It allows non-privileged access to the host's native TCP interface for connecting to a host socket.? This interface has been used to support TCP on MVS.? What VM/370 work would be required to allow a CMS virtual machine to do the same is an unanswered question.
There are a number of "devices" already supported by Hercules for IP connectivity.? Again, this vintage of VM knows nothing about these Hercules devices, per se.? Someone who understands the internals of VM/370 would be able to assist with connecting such a device to a CMS guest.? Some of these device uses CTC channel protocol that VM/370 understands.? I think the work there is much less.? Getting CMS the "intelligence" to use the CTC device is another challenge.? The MVS programs that use the TCPIP instruction might provide a foundation for coding a server or client program.
Just a few thoughts on your "middle" question.
Harold Grovesteen
On Mon, 2022-10-17 at 03:21 -0500, Bertram Moshier wrote: Hi,
I have three questions.? As a side note, I'm a ham radio operator (WB8ERT) and use DMR.
My left field question would be for fellow ham radio operators.? I understand getting a PI-Raspberry to operate as? a transmit and receive DMR.? Just for fun, I'm wondering about doing the same using VM.? Is it possible, in theory?? I think it should be possible.? The DMR code is in C.? SIO to send and receive and yet . . .
Middle question:? What is involved in getting herc to see a new device that would then be seen by VM?? I know from my work at Cray Research, Inc, creating hardware for S/370 systems is possible.? We had two hardware devices to talk to a Cray.? One looked like a CTC to the S/370 and the other was by Network Systems.? To our Station software, they looked very similar.? I also worked on the Seagate STK4400 to Cray-1 and Cray-2 interface (using tape connected to the Cray and a 3270 hardware (as I remember) to control the STK for S/370 systems.
Right field:? Is there an HTTPD for VM/CE? By this I mean a HTTP server for VM/CE?? OH, is it possible again on VM/CE to run a line by line browser.? (Yeah, I remember using the Internet using a line by line browser (but not on VM).? We connected to an Unix system for our Internet work.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
|
Bertram, Whilst licencing is difficult, most any IBM OS works on Hercules. TCP/IP does not use the ISO 7-layer model. If you think it does please explain where the “presentation” layer is implemented. The work to make VM/CE understand TCP/IP could be similar to the work done to make VM/370 understand TCP/IP It could be less if you leverage the support in the underlying host OS => windows/linux/macos. Dave ? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bertram Moshier
Sent: 19 October 2022 21:25
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)? Hello, I'm assuming the work necessary to get VM/CE to recognize the OSI 7 layer model is the same as on any hardware supporting the Internet, right? I mean Hercules needs to look like real iron.? Thus someone with the legal right would be able to take z/VM or VM/ESA have it run - unmodified on Hercules. So, the work to get VM/CE to support the OSI 7 layer model would be about the same as what it took IBM to do initially.? Am I?missing something? ? The answer to your middle question is A LOT of work.? All of it in C and coded to Hercules internal constructs. However, there is no need to create a "new" device for Internet connectivity.? The issue is not Hercules, but the guest OS (VM I am assuming) lacks TCP/IP intelligence.? At this vintage of guest operating system, Hercules offers the TCPIP instruction.? It allows non-privileged access to the host's native TCP interface for connecting to a host socket.? This interface has been used to support TCP on MVS.? What VM/370 work would be required to allow a CMS virtual machine to do the same is an unanswered question. There are a number of "devices" already supported by Hercules for IP connectivity.? Again, this vintage of VM knows nothing about these Hercules devices, per se.? Someone who understands the internals of VM/370 would be able to assist with connecting such a device to a CMS guest.? Some of these device uses CTC channel protocol that VM/370 understands.? I think the work there is much less.? Getting CMS the "intelligence" to use the CTC device is another challenge.? The MVS programs that use the TCPIP instruction might provide a foundation for coding a server or client program. Just a few thoughts on your "middle" question. On Mon, 2022-10-17 at 03:21 -0500, Bertram Moshier wrote: Hi, I have three questions.? As a side note, I'm a ham radio operator (WB8ERT) and use DMR. My left field question would be for fellow ham radio operators.? I understand getting a PI-Raspberry to operate as? a transmit and receive DMR.? Just for fun, I'm wondering about doing the same using VM.? Is it possible, in theory?? I think it should be possible.? The DMR code is in C.? SIO to send and receive and yet . . . Middle question:? What is involved in getting herc to see a new device that would then be seen by VM?? I know from my work at Cray Research, Inc, creating hardware for S/370 systems is possible.? We had two hardware devices to talk to a Cray.? One looked like a CTC to the S/370 and the other was by Network Systems.? To our Station software, they looked very similar.? I also worked on the Seagate STK4400 to Cray-1 and Cray-2 interface (using tape connected to the Cray and a 3270 hardware (as I remember) to control the STK for S/370 systems. Right field:? Is there an HTTPD for VM/CE? By this I mean a HTTP server for VM/CE?? OH, is it possible again on VM/CE to run a line by line browser.? (Yeah, I remember using the Internet using a line by line browser (but not on VM).? We connected to an Unix system for our Internet work. Thank you for your time and consideration.
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"I'd be happy to join a future team looking at adding the OSI 7 layer (better known as TCP/I:) to VM/CE."
TCP/IP only uses layers 3 and 4.?
Joe
Harold,
Support for TCP/IP would include the physical layer of the OSI model.? Thus Hercules would need to support the myriad?number of devices one can hook to the IBM iron.? Now I see a large part of the problem.? I was just thinking of the OSI model, itself.
When working at Cray, I spent over 2 years dealing with and programming various parts of the OSI model on Cray and OS/2.? We were working on porting the model to these software and hardware platforms.? Of course, others were providing the drivers for the hardware.
It would be really nice to have this for VM/CE, but you're right it would be a team effort.
(From my perspective, at the higher layers (3+) the various devices (like all the SNA devices) didn't matter.)
I'd be happy to join a future team looking at adding the OSI 7 layer (better known as TCP/I:) to VM/CE.
Bert.
The answer to your middle question is A LOT of work.? All of it in C and coded to Hercules internal constructs.
However, there is no need to create a "new" device for Internet connectivity.? The issue is not Hercules, but the guest OS (VM I am assuming) lacks TCP/IP intelligence.? At this vintage of guest operating system, Hercules offers the TCPIP instruction.? It allows non-privileged access to the host's native TCP interface for connecting to a host socket.? This interface has been used to support TCP on MVS.? What VM/370 work would be required to allow a CMS virtual machine to do the same is an unanswered question.
There are a number of "devices" already supported by Hercules for IP connectivity.? Again, this vintage of VM knows nothing about these Hercules devices, per se.? Someone who understands the internals of VM/370 would be able to assist with connecting such a device to a CMS guest.? Some of these device uses CTC channel protocol that VM/370 understands.? I think the work there is much less.? Getting CMS the "intelligence" to use the CTC device is another challenge.? The MVS programs that use the TCPIP instruction might provide a foundation for coding a server or client program.
Just a few thoughts on your "middle" question.
Harold Grovesteen
On Mon, 2022-10-17 at 03:21 -0500, Bertram Moshier wrote: Hi,
I have three questions.? As a side note, I'm a ham radio operator (WB8ERT) and use DMR.
My left field question would be for fellow ham radio operators.? I understand getting a PI-Raspberry to operate as? a transmit and receive DMR.? Just for fun, I'm wondering about doing the same using VM.? Is it possible, in theory?? I think it should be possible.? The DMR code is in C.? SIO to send and receive and yet . . .
Middle question:? What is involved in getting herc to see a new device that would then be seen by VM?? I know from my work at Cray Research, Inc, creating hardware for S/370 systems is possible.? We had two hardware devices to talk to a Cray.? One looked like a CTC to the S/370 and the other was by Network Systems.? To our Station software, they looked very similar.? I also worked on the Seagate STK4400 to Cray-1 and Cray-2 interface (using tape connected to the Cray and a 3270 hardware (as I remember) to control the STK for S/370 systems.
Right field:? Is there an HTTPD for VM/CE? By this I mean a HTTP server for VM/CE?? OH, is it possible again on VM/CE to run a line by line browser.? (Yeah, I remember using the Internet using a line by line browser (but not on VM).? We connected to an Unix system for our Internet work.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
|
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 01:47 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
It could be less if you leverage the support in the underlying host OS => windows/linux/macos.
Isn't it (in a certain way) what the NICOF program of Hans Latz was doing? I remember there was a disconnected virtual machine TCPIPXY running on VM/370 and a Java machine on the host connecting to it.
Personally, I liked NICOF quite much, although it was probably not very secure (and never pretended to be if I am right). NICOF does not work on VM/370 CE anymore. Someone told me that the connection between the Java machine and the TCPIPXY virtual machine gets confused by the SYSNAME added in Sixpack 1.3. But It could be something else.
?
Rene FERLAND, Montreal
?
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Rene, ? Yes, very similar. I didn’t know it had stopped working. Could be the SYSNAME. Might be worth having a long. The ‘75’ TCPIP instruction as well…. Dave ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of René Ferland
Sent: 19 October 2022 22:07
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)? On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 01:47 PM, Dave Wade wrote: It could be less if you leverage the support in the underlying host OS => windows/linux/macos.
Isn't it (in a certain way) what the NICOF program of Hans Latz was doing? I remember there was a disconnected virtual machine TCPIPXY running on VM/370 and a Java machine on the host connecting to it.
Personally, I liked NICOF quite much, although it was probably not very secure (and never pretended to be if I am right). NICOF does not work on VM/370 CE anymore. Someone told me that the connection between the Java machine and the TCPIPXY virtual machine gets confused by the SYSNAME added in Sixpack 1.3. But It could be something else.
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On Oct 19, 2022, at 2:29 PM, Bertram Moshier <BertramMoshier@...> wrote:
So, the work to get VM/CE to support the OSI 7 layer model would be about the same as what it took IBM to do initially.? Am I?missing something?
==================
When did IBM support OSI 7 layer model??
They supported SNA.?
I was involved with adding X.25 to IBM 3705 in EP mode. IBM had X.25 support in NCP mode as a RFPQ.?
Michael
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I think we are confused about what you are asking. IBM implemented the OSI 7-layer model via multiple products, two of which I remember were ? OSI/FILE SERVICES – provides for FTAM file transfers ? & ? OSI/COMMUNICATION SUBSYSTEM – which provides the underlying OSI network layers….. ? … I never did manage to transfer a file using these products…. ? … if you are asking about TCP/IP then I always thought that came from the University of Wisconsin but in this rather long thread about TCP/IP on MVS ?
? Lynn Wheeler, whose posts I generally trust, asserts it was an IBM product. I assume IBM wrote it in Pascal because that was the nearest think to “C” they had at the time… .. and of course the MVS product was basically the VM product ported to MVS. It required some extra work as there was no VMCF or IUCV in MVS… ? .. and if its SNA, which IBM has suggested is OSI layer compliant, then for a long time there was no SNA in VM. Some might say there still isn’t as basically what you get is the MVS VTAM machine running under GCS which is a “sort of virtual MVS”… ? Dave ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Michael Burke
Sent: 19 October 2022 22:49
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)?
On Oct 19, 2022, at 2:29 PM, Bertram Moshier <BertramMoshier@...> wrote:
So, the work to get VM/CE to support the OSI 7 layer model would be about the same as what it took IBM to do initially.? Am I?missing something? When did IBM support OSI 7 layer model?? I was involved with adding X.25 to IBM 3705 in EP mode. IBM had X.25 support in NCP mode as a RFPQ.?
Michael
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This a family oriented group.?
Please don't use four letters words like "OSI" (especially since OSI lost the war to TCP/IP around same time UUCP did!)
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Martin Scheffler
René Ferland