On Thu, Nov 24, 2022 at 01:18 PM, Bertram Moshier wrote:

Is it possible to have these two VM and Hercules systems on different physical Windows or Linux systems connected by a CTCA?

Yes.? It's called RSCS.? :-)

-ahd-

As an exercise for the reader, write a generic HYPER (Hypervisor) command which issued a Diag x'08' from CP to Hercules.? Make it class C or B.? You then need to enable the appropriate Hercules options as others have noted.

Bonus points if you get it added to the six pack distribution.? ;-)?

-ahd-

p.s. I actually did this … for my second level development system … contracting at Kingston in 1988 … on VM/XA.? That was long ago and far away; the building (025) doesn't even exist any more.??

On 11/25/22 18:36, Gregg Levine wrote:

I'm not the fellow here who's surrounded by DEC gear, but, ah, it's a
family of networking protocols used by that family to, ah,
communicate. People could send files to other systems, and naturally
get them back. They could also make use of an email idea.

Indeed they can. Great stuff!

However it's
biggest use happened to be to facilitate remote diagnosis of unhappy
DEC systems.

I assume you mean HECnet in particular, not DECnet in general, and are referring to the recent lengthy mailing list thread regarding debugging of some network stack implementation issues on TOPS-20.

We also should expect a response from the fellow as soon as a member
of his staff understands the email.

Well I am one such fellow, if the response you were expecting was from me!

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 05:37 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:

As far as documentation describing actual CTCA functionality goes (i.e. how it works and how to use it), there are the following IBM reference manuals:

* GA22-6983-00 IBM System-370 Special Feature Description - Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SA22-7091-01 ESA-390 (CTCA) Channel-to-Channel Adapter for the System-360 and System-370 I-O Interface
* SA22-7203-00 ESA-390 ESCON Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SB10-7034-04 System z - ESCON and FICON Channel-to-Channel Reference

There is a short intro to channel programming which can be found in the following, which might be of some help, too.

GC20-1667-1_intro360arch.pdf

?... Mark S.

Hello!
I'm not the fellow here who's surrounded by DEC gear, but, ah, it's a
family of networking protocols used by that family to, ah,
communicate. People could send files to other systems, and naturally
get them back. They could also make use of an email idea. However it's
biggest use happened to be to facilitate remote diagnosis of unhappy
DEC systems.

We also should expect a response from the fellow as soon as a member
of his staff understands the email.

Fish? What's that green thing in your bowl? Oh right, the pottery
whatsit that's usually found inside fish bowls.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 6:20 PM Bertram Moshier <herc370390vm@...> wrote:

Hey!

I'm not familiar with DECNet. I'm looking at the possibility of using CTCA to allow the VM Backup program to talk to other copies of itself.

The idea being offsite backup or copies of backups.

This wouldn't work in a mixed real iron and Hercules, from what I can tell.

Bertram / WB8ERT

On Fri, Nov 25, 2022, 17:08 Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8@...> wrote:

Hello!
I believe I originally proposed that sometime earlier. The idea was
that we'd each have our machines communicating over the Internet, and
sending and receiving files, and perhaps messages. Of course that one
is a bit more difficult. Oddly enough I first proposed this, well
before the Hobbyist DECNet project emerged, back when your wonderful
ideas on connecting the Hercules example to the outside world first
got launched.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022 at 6:17 PM Fish Fish <david.b.trout@...> wrote:

Bertram Moshier wrote:

[...]

I'm wondering is it possible to have

1) Two Hercules systems on the same Windows system
running VM and
2) Connect these two CMS users on each VM system via
a CTCA between these two Hercules systems?

Also:

Is it possible to have these two VM and Hercules systems
on different physical Windows or Linux systems connected
by a CTCA?

Yes to both.

If so, how? What should I read?

Start here:

*


As far as documentation describing actual CTCA functionality goes (i.e. how it works and how to use it), there are the following IBM reference manuals:

* GA22-6983-00 IBM System-370 Special Feature Description - Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SA22-7091-01 ESA-390 (CTCA) Channel-to-Channel Adapter for the System-360 and System-370 I-O Interface
* SA22-7203-00 ESA-390 ESCON Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SB10-7034-04 System z - ESCON and FICON Channel-to-Channel Reference

You might be able to find them on the web somewhere if you search hard enough. If you can't find them though, contact me off list and I'll send you a copy. I have them all.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

And we've gotten space allocated for the Rebel fleet which is moving
from Sullust.

And we've gotten more space allocated for the Rebel fleet which is
moving from Sullust.

Hello!
I believe I originally proposed that sometime earlier. The idea was
that we'd each have our machines communicating over the Internet, and
sending and receiving files, and perhaps messages. Of course that one
is a bit more difficult. Oddly enough I first proposed this, well
before the Hobbyist DECNet project emerged, back when your wonderful
ideas on connecting the Hercules example to the outside world first
got launched.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022 at 6:17 PM Fish Fish <david.b.trout@...> wrote:

Bertram Moshier wrote:

[...]

I'm wondering is it possible to have

1) Two Hercules systems on the same Windows system
running VM and
2) Connect these two CMS users on each VM system via
a CTCA between these two Hercules systems?

Also:

Is it possible to have these two VM and Hercules systems
on different physical Windows or Linux systems connected
by a CTCA?

Yes to both.

If so, how? What should I read?

Start here:

*


As far as documentation describing actual CTCA functionality goes (i.e. how it works and how to use it), there are the following IBM reference manuals:

* GA22-6983-00 IBM System-370 Special Feature Description - Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SA22-7091-01 ESA-390 (CTCA) Channel-to-Channel Adapter for the System-360 and System-370 I-O Interface
* SA22-7203-00 ESA-390 ESCON Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SB10-7034-04 System z - ESCON and FICON Channel-to-Channel Reference

You might be able to find them on the web somewhere if you search hard enough. If you can't find them though, contact me off list and I'll send you a copy. I have them all.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

And we've gotten space allocated for the Rebel fleet which is moving
from Sullust.

Bertram Moshier wrote:

[...]

I'm wondering is it possible to have

1) Two Hercules systems on the same Windows system
running VM and
2) Connect these two CMS users on each VM system via
a CTCA between these two Hercules systems?

Also:

Is it possible to have these two VM and Hercules systems
on different physical Windows or Linux systems connected
by a CTCA?

Yes to both.

If so, how? What should I read?

Start here:

*


As far as documentation describing actual CTCA functionality goes (i.e. how it works and how to use it), there are the following IBM reference manuals:

* GA22-6983-00 IBM System-370 Special Feature Description - Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SA22-7091-01 ESA-390 (CTCA) Channel-to-Channel Adapter for the System-360 and System-370 I-O Interface
* SA22-7203-00 ESA-390 ESCON Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SB10-7034-04 System z - ESCON and FICON Channel-to-Channel Reference

You might be able to find them on the web somewhere if you search hard enough. If you can't find them though, contact me off list and I'll send you a copy. I have them all.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

Hi, Joe,

Thanks for that clarification.

Mark

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Read the source of Hercules and you will find that your statement is not correct.?

To All,

??? If you want to try VM/370 on a 370 simulator there is the one I developed for simH. It will run pretty much anything but MVS for some reason. I can't figure out why I can't get past SMP install.

But it is a 370 only machine, it will also emulate a 360 (including a /67). Once I can run MVS on it I will release it to the main open-simh repository. I also need to complete VM/CP assist instructions.

If anyone wants to play with it let me know.

Rich

To all,

There is one big "flaw" in this thread, the part about adding newer instructions " for use in 370 mode ..." -- I believe Roger Bowler set out to develop hercules-390 as a S/390 emulator, from "day one"... it only runs S/370 SCPs by virtue of the fact that the real S/390 machines could also do so ...? because those machines provided a certain amount of backward compatibility.
?
So, on a real S/390, you would have newer problem-state instructions available to use, even if you were running an older SCP that was originally for S/360 or S/370 ...

Just saying ...

Cheers,
Mark S. Waterbury

Laddie Hanus wrote:

[...]

Next Hercules has implemented a CCW that came from the p/390
and still exists in z/PDT I believe.

Yes! I forgot all about that one. Thank you, Laddie, for mentioning it. That would also be a viable method for Bertram:

*
*

Note: The above TMOUNT assembler source code was written for the DOS/VSE operating system, but the program is so short and simple that I would like to believe any competent assembler programmer should have no problem understanding it, given that the most important part is how the CCWs are used. How I/O to a device is done on other operating systems is left to the user.


[...]

Caution: writing a channel program you need to know about
how I/O works and can be very difficult to debug.

I guess it all depends on how complicated the I/O is. In the TMOUNT case, the I/O is so dirt simple that I'm doubting there would be any significant problems.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

I worked at StorageTek on tape libraries and virtual tape from 1984 to 2017 with a 6 year vacation. The 4400 and newer tape libraries under worked on vm by using IUCV for sending a command to a service machine that ran a modified version of HSC which was the MVS Host Software Component that controlled the tape library. The tape library had a 3270 connection that was used by HSC to communicate with the library. ?I don’t remember?the data shipped along the 3270 connection?. Suffice it to say that the was a mount command and unmount?command. It also required VM/SP so I don’t know if something similar could be done on older releases of VM. This is what the customer saw so I can share this. What I know about the internals I can’t share due to my employment contract that I signed when I started there. And I respect that. Every little bit?is left of STK is owned by Oracle who bought Sun. Which bought STK

Tony Harminc wrote:

Fish wrote:

Tony Harminc wrote:

[...]

Is that maybe what you're referring to?

No - not at all.

I simply refer to the fact that part of ("full") virtualization
is that the guest cannot discover using architected features
whether or not it is running in a virtual environment. Note
that the DIAG interface to CP (or Hercules, or an LPAR, for
that matter) is not part of the architecture. Yes, of course
the guest can probably, but not deterministically, discover that
it is running virtualized - most likely using timing tests. But
not by finding a different result from an architected instruction.
This is discussed in the VM books from the earliest days.

Ah. I see where you're coming from now.

Well gosh, Tony. By that definition then, IBM's VM has *never* provided full virtualization (hint: STIDP), so why the big deal about EPSW?

I'm not sure that even today i64 is 100% virtualizable,
is it?

I have no idea. I don't know i64.

Oh, sorry - I thought all Windows people did.

Nope. I absolutely *hate* the Intel architecture, and have never found the real need to ever learn it (thank goodness!). Mark Gaubatz seems to be quite familiar with it, and uses that knowledge/skill to find bugs in Microsoft's Visual C/C++ compiler (most often in their optimization logic). He tells me about it all the time.

Me? I'm not interested in debugging their compiler or stepping through their generated assembler code or, at ANY time, ever coding anything in it. I leave that to Mark and others. If I come across a situation where my C/C++ code misbehaves when optimized (whereas it doesn't when not optimized), I would just report it and then disable optimizations for that particular function and move on. I have ZERO interest in the Intel architecture. It truly SUCKS IMHO.

Now Motorola's 68XXX and 88XXX architectures are pretty nice IMO. I messed with both of them many eons ago at one of my former employers.

But Intel? YUCK! :)

(I mean, little endian?! Come on!)

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

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