+Hi,
In 1982 and 1983, I worked for Owens Corning Fiberglas at their Research Center in Newark, Ohio.? I was the lead systems programmer for the VM system.
My first assignment was to create a backup system that the operators could run (manual restore was OK).? The issue was they were using DDR to back up their system.? They would take the system offline each night for hours to backup it up.? People were complaining about how much downtime the system required to operate properly.
I wrote a backup program in a couple of weeks.? It was good enough that several people asked me to do a Share presentation.
The program uses EXEC2 and a small (20 lines) modification to VMFPLC2.
IBM approached Owens Corning Fiberglas about buying it (for US$7M over 4 years).? My boss was proud and wanted to take IBM up on the offer.? Unfortunately, there was this Senior VP whose attitude was "we make fiberglass?not software."? He went on to say there had been others who wrote software IBM wanted to buy and always said NO, PERIOD!? This is part of the reason I left Owens Corning Fiberglas.
He felt OCF would need to create a new division to handle the influx of money, etc., and OCF would lose money.? I talked to the Comptroller and he disagreed about needing a new division.? He felt the IT division could handle it all and he liked the idea, but it was out of his hands.
OK enough for background.? Obviously, I can't reuse the code I wrote for OCF, but why not do it again?
I'm wondering if a VM Backup program would be useful for people using VM/CE.? I can see both reasons being yes and no.? Thus my question about a VM Backup program for VM/CE?
Thanks.
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Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
What APIs are you referring to specifically?
Joe
Drew Derbyshire wrote:
> Fish wrote:
>
> > Windows has always provided full backward compatibility
> > in all versions of their operating system, allowing programs
> > written for/on older versions of Windows to continue to run
> > perfectly fine on future/newer versions of their operating
> > system.
>
> This is incorrect.? They dropped 16-bit support years ago.
Fine.
Windows has always provided full backward compatibility in all versions of their operating system for the same machine (hardware) architecture, allowing programs written for/on older versions of Windows of the same machine (hardware) architecture to continue to run perfectly fine on future/newer versions of their operating system of the same machine (hardware) architecture.
Better?
My point is, they provide a set of operating system APIs that well written programs are supposed to use in order to do certain Windows type things (like painting a window or drawing a widget, etc), but NOW, when your program *uses* those provided functions that you're supposed to use to perform those typical Windows things, they no longer work correctly.
THAT is a first for Microsoft and Windows. They've never done that before.
My software behaved perfectly fine on all versions of Windows from Windows 7 up to Windows 10. But NOW, suddenly and unexpectedly, starting with Windows 11, to both my and my customers' consternation, that's no longer true. NOW, starting with Windows 11, my well written program that painted its windows and displayed its dialogs just fine on previous versions of Windows, fucks up and paints incorrectly, even though I'm following THEIR RULES for how windows and widgets and supposed to be painted.
THAT *sucks*, and *REALLY* pisses me off!? >8-<
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
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Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
Drew Derbyshire wrote: Fish wrote:
Windows has always provided full backward compatibility
in all versions of their operating system, allowing programs
written for/on older versions of Windows to continue to run
perfectly fine on future/newer versions of their operating
system. This is incorrect. They dropped 16-bit support years ago. Fine. Windows has always provided full backward compatibility in all versions of their operating system for the same machine (hardware) architecture, allowing programs written for/on older versions of Windows of the same machine (hardware) architecture to continue to run perfectly fine on future/newer versions of their operating system of the same machine (hardware) architecture. Better? My point is, they provide a set of operating system APIs that well written programs are supposed to use in order to do certain Windows type things (like painting a window or drawing a widget, etc), but NOW, when your program *uses* those provided functions that you're supposed to use to perform those typical Windows things, they no longer work correctly. THAT is a first for Microsoft and Windows. They've never done that before. My software behaved perfectly fine on all versions of Windows from Windows 7 up to Windows 10. But NOW, suddenly and unexpectedly, starting with Windows 11, to both my and my customers' consternation, that's no longer true. NOW, starting with Windows 11, my well written program that painted its windows and displayed its dialogs just fine on previous versions of Windows, fucks up and paints incorrectly, even though I'm following THEIR RULES for how windows and widgets and supposed to be painted. THAT *sucks*, and *REALLY* pisses me off! >8-< -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Re: I'm not seeing all the messages from the group. Thoughts?
On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 08:13 AM, Bertram Moshier wrote:
I'm trying to reduce the amount of email on my ?personal email by creating this one.
My issue is I'm not seeing all the messages that are coming in after signing up this email address.? An example are the "Re: [h390-vm] Possible bug in BREXX parse instruction" messages.
Under the Subscriptions section on the left hand side of the groups.io page for h390-vm, I have the following selected. For me, it results in my getting all e-mail, each as a separate e-mail.
Email Delivery
Individual Messages Receive each message in an individual email.
Advanced Preferences
Message Selection
All Messages Every message is emailed to you, according to your Email Delivery Selection, except topics or hashtags you've muted.
?
I Hope This Helps ?... Mark S.
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Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 11:13 AM, Fish Fish wrote:
Windows has always provided full backward compatibility in all versions of their operating system, allowing programs written for/on older versions of Windows to continue to run perfectly fine on future/newer versions of their operating system.
This is incorrect.? They dropped 16-bit support years ago.
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Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
Bertram, Not sure if this has really been answered, but the Hercules console combines both the Hercules console and the VM Operator Console on device 009. You route commands to VM by prefixing with a “/” so “/shutdown” shuts down VM. You can use the “PgUp” and “Pgdn” keys to see previous output. “Esc” toggles the view. I used to use the GUI but I don’t find a need since the scripts autostart VM. I would try the trial. The extra devices in DMKRIO allow you to add extra devices without rebuilding the nucleus. Dave ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bertram Moshier
Sent: 20 October 2022 10:58
To: [email protected]
Subject: [h390-vm] Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...? Hi, First, I know OPERATOR is logged into 009, but where is 009 physically on my computer? At first I thought it was the Hercules console, but it clearly isn't OPERATOR. When I try to log into OPERATOR, I get the error message - already logged on at 009. Second issue:? On the Herc console, when I do ? a very long list of commands appear and in fact look to go off the screen (but I can't scroll back).? How does one see all the Hercules commands via ? ? Is there a better way to see all the commands? Finally, What do you think of the GUI interface to Herc?? Is it worth the money?? (I'm talking about the pay for GUI Herc interface.) Oh, damn, a fourth and final question:? Are there instructions I can read on adding storage?? I'd like to add some additional drives and then create some new USERIDS?for VM.? I did this as a systems programmer, but I know there are some differences (especially in creating the physical hardware). When I look at the DMKRIO?ASSEMBLE on the F disk, I notice drives not found in the?vm370ce.conf file.? What am I missing?
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Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
Bertram, Not sure if this has really been answered, but the Hercules console combines both the Hercules console and the VM Operator Console on device 009. You route commands to VM by prefixing with a “/” so “/shutdown” shuts down VM. You can use the “PgUp” and “Pgdn” keys to see previous output. “Esc” toggles the view. I used to use the GUI but I don’t find a need since the scripts autostart VM. I would try the trial. The extra devices in DMKRIO allow you to add extra devices without rebuilding the nucleus. Dave ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bertram Moshier
Sent: 20 October 2022 10:58
To: [email protected]
Subject: [h390-vm] Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...? Hi, First, I know OPERATOR is logged into 009, but where is 009 physically on my computer? At first I thought it was the Hercules console, but it clearly isn't OPERATOR. When I try to log into OPERATOR, I get the error message - already logged on at 009. Second issue:? On the Herc console, when I do ? a very long list of commands appear and in fact look to go off the screen (but I can't scroll back).? How does one see all the Hercules commands via ? ? Is there a better way to see all the commands? Finally, What do you think of the GUI interface to Herc?? Is it worth the money?? (I'm talking about the pay for GUI Herc interface.) Oh, damn, a fourth and final question:? Are there instructions I can read on adding storage?? I'd like to add some additional drives and then create some new USERIDS?for VM.? I did this as a systems programmer, but I know there are some differences (especially in creating the physical hardware). When I look at the DMKRIO?ASSEMBLE on the F disk, I notice drives not found in the?vm370ce.conf file.? What am I missing?
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Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
Jim Snellen wrote: [...] I am a HercGUI customer and I like the interface mostly because
I’m a point and click kinda guy. As am I, which is why I wrote it. :) For the most part I can't stand command-line interfaces, much preferring GUI applications instead (where I can more easily visually SEE what I'm doing, and just check a few checkboxes or select something from a list and them press/click a button rather than have to type in some cryptic command with all sorts of weird arguments/options that I can never remember). I think it’s worth the small fee. I tried to give it a reasonable price. And as a reminder, if you'd like a copy but cannot afford to purchase one because you're so poor, LET ME KNOW! I know what it's like to be poor and not be able to afford something you really need/want to have. I even state as much in the "Purchasing" section of my main web page: * "Software development Laboratories is also keenly sensitive to those unlucky few to be suffering from severe financial hardship (employment loss, healthcare costs or health issues, etc) and is willing to offer its products to such individuals at whatever cost their current financial situation and/or conscience allows. Contact Software Development Laboratories directly for more information." It doesn’t display correctly on a Windows 11 system
(still works though) but appears fine on Windows 10. And you have NO IDEA how much that really pisses me off too! >8-< I can't believe Microsoft would do something so incredibly irresponsible. :( Windows has always provided full backward compatibility in all versions of their operating system, allowing programs written for/on older versions of Windows to continue to run perfectly fine on future/newer versions of their operating system. Until now. >8-< That REALLY sucks. :( -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Re: Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)
This a family oriented group.?
Please don't use four letters words like "OSI" (especially since OSI lost the war to TCP/IP around same time UUCP did!)
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Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
Hello Bertram,
As to your third question,
Finally, What do you think of the GUI interface to Herc?? Is it worth the money?? (I'm talking about the pay for GUI Herc interface.)
I am a HercGUI customer and I like the interface mostly because I’m a point and click kinda guy. I think it’s worth the small fee. It doesn’t display correctly on a Windows 11 system (still works though) but appears fine on Windows 10.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 20, 2022, at 9:13 AM, Bertram Moshier <herc370390vm@...> wrote:
? Hi,
First, I know OPERATOR is logged into 009, but where is 009 physically on my computer?
At first I thought it was the Hercules console, but it clearly isn't OPERATOR.
When I try to log into OPERATOR, I get the error message - already logged on at 009.
So where is it?
Second issue:? On the Herc console, when I do ? a very long list of commands appear and in fact look to go off the screen (but I can't scroll back).? How does one see all the Hercules commands via ? ?
Is there a better way to see all the commands?
Finally, What do you think of the GUI interface to Herc?? Is it worth the money?? (I'm talking about the pay for GUI Herc interface.)
Oh, damn, a fourth and final question:? Are there instructions I can read on adding storage?? I'd like to add some additional drives and then create some new USERIDS?for VM.? I did this as a systems programmer, but I know there are some differences (especially in creating the physical hardware).
When I look at the DMKRIO?ASSEMBLE on the F disk, I notice drives not found in the?vm370ce.conf file.? What am I missing?
Thanks! :)?
|
Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
The VM/370 OPERATOR useID is logged on when VM/370 starts. You may pass operator commands to VM by entering them on theHercules linemode console and prefixing them with a '/' character.
Links to the Hercules manuals are here:??
There is an empty disk volume named VM5U01 that you may use to define new minidisk space. The procedures are described in the IBM manuals here:? VM/370 is complex. I suggest a little study to get the concepts and facilities in mind.
DMKRIO?defines?disk addresses which?do not exist, so that they may be added later, with out requiring a VM system generation.
Best regards, Bob Bolch
Hi,
First, I know OPERATOR is logged into 009, but where is 009 physically on my computer?
At first I thought it was the Hercules console, but it clearly isn't OPERATOR.
When I try to log into OPERATOR, I get the error message - already logged on at 009.
So where is it?
Second issue:? On the Herc console, when I do ? a very long list of commands appear and in fact look to go off the screen (but I can't scroll back).? How does one see all the Hercules commands via ? ?
Is there a better way to see all the commands?
Finally, What do you think of the GUI interface to Herc?? Is it worth the money?? (I'm talking about the pay for GUI Herc interface.)
Oh, damn, a fourth and final question:? Are there instructions I can read on adding storage?? I'd like to add some additional drives and then create some new USERIDS?for VM.? I did this as a systems programmer, but I know there are some differences (especially in creating the physical hardware).
When I look at the DMKRIO?ASSEMBLE on the F disk, I notice drives not found in the?vm370ce.conf file.? What am I missing?
Thanks! :)?
|
Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
Yes, I should have left off the -C. So it should?just be
0009 3215
Joe
Not quite. 3215-C is integrated into the Hercules console. So, in fact, the Hercules console is logged in as OPERATOR. Note that OPERATOR doesn't IPL CMS automatically; if you want to use CMS on that, you have to 'I CMS' (preceded by the console prefix character, normally / ).
So generally ...
009 3215-C would be the device entry for the console. You should open a REGULAR TELNET (NOT TN3270) session and connect to hercules (i..e hercules already running, but VM not yet IPL'd). That will connect to 009.
Joe
Hi,
First, I know OPERATOR is logged into 009, but where is 009 physically on my computer?
At first I thought it was the Hercules console, but it clearly isn't OPERATOR.
When I try to log into OPERATOR, I get the error message - already logged on at 009.
So where is it?
Second issue:? On the Herc console, when I do ? a very long list of commands appear and in fact look to go off the screen (but I can't scroll back).? How does one see all the Hercules commands via ? ?
Is there a better way to see all the commands?
Finally, What do you think of the GUI interface to Herc?? Is it worth the money?? (I'm talking about the pay for GUI Herc interface.)
Oh, damn, a fourth and final question:? Are there instructions I can read on adding storage?? I'd like to add some additional drives and then create some new USERIDS?for VM.? I did this as a systems programmer, but I know there are some differences (especially in creating the physical hardware).
When I look at the DMKRIO?ASSEMBLE on the F disk, I notice drives not found in the?vm370ce.conf file.? What am I missing?
Thanks! :)?
--
|
Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
Not quite. 3215-C is integrated into the Hercules console. So, in fact, the Hercules console is logged in as OPERATOR. Note that OPERATOR doesn't IPL CMS automatically; if you want to use CMS on that, you have to 'I CMS' (preceded by the console prefix character, normally / ).
So generally ...
009 3215-C would be the device entry for the console. You should open a REGULAR TELNET (NOT TN3270) session and connect to hercules (i..e hercules already running, but VM not yet IPL'd). That will connect to 009.
Joe
Hi,
First, I know OPERATOR is logged into 009, but where is 009 physically on my computer?
At first I thought it was the Hercules console, but it clearly isn't OPERATOR.
When I try to log into OPERATOR, I get the error message - already logged on at 009.
So where is it?
Second issue:? On the Herc console, when I do ? a very long list of commands appear and in fact look to go off the screen (but I can't scroll back).? How does one see all the Hercules commands via ? ?
Is there a better way to see all the commands?
Finally, What do you think of the GUI interface to Herc?? Is it worth the money?? (I'm talking about the pay for GUI Herc interface.)
Oh, damn, a fourth and final question:? Are there instructions I can read on adding storage?? I'd like to add some additional drives and then create some new USERIDS?for VM.? I did this as a systems programmer, but I know there are some differences (especially in creating the physical hardware).
When I look at the DMKRIO?ASSEMBLE on the F disk, I notice drives not found in the?vm370ce.conf file.? What am I missing?
Thanks! :)?
|
Re: Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
So generally ...
009 3215-C would be the device entry for the console. You should open a REGULAR TELNET (NOT TN3270) session and connect to hercules (i..e hercules already running, but VM not yet IPL'd). That will connect to 009.
Joe
Hi,
First, I know OPERATOR is logged into 009, but where is 009 physically on my computer?
At first I thought it was the Hercules console, but it clearly isn't OPERATOR.
When I try to log into OPERATOR, I get the error message - already logged on at 009.
So where is it?
Second issue:? On the Herc console, when I do ? a very long list of commands appear and in fact look to go off the screen (but I can't scroll back).? How does one see all the Hercules commands via ? ?
Is there a better way to see all the commands?
Finally, What do you think of the GUI interface to Herc?? Is it worth the money?? (I'm talking about the pay for GUI Herc interface.)
Oh, damn, a fourth and final question:? Are there instructions I can read on adding storage?? I'd like to add some additional drives and then create some new USERIDS?for VM.? I did this as a systems programmer, but I know there are some differences (especially in creating the physical hardware).
When I look at the DMKRIO?ASSEMBLE on the F disk, I notice drives not found in the?vm370ce.conf file.? What am I missing?
Thanks! :)?
|
I'm not seeing all the messages from the group. Thoughts?
Hi, I'm trying to reduce the amount of email on my ?personal email by creating this one. My issue is I'm not seeing all the messages that are coming in after signing up this email address.? An example are the "Re: [h390-vm] Possible bug in BREXX parse instruction" messages.
Thoughts?? Thanks in advance.
|
Sorry, for these four simple questions, but ...
Hi,
First, I know OPERATOR is logged into 009, but where is 009 physically on my computer?
At first I thought it was the Hercules console, but it clearly isn't OPERATOR.
When I try to log into OPERATOR, I get the error message - already logged on at 009.
So where is it?
Second issue:? On the Herc console, when I do ? a very long list of commands appear and in fact look to go off the screen (but I can't scroll back).? How does one see all the Hercules commands via ? ?
Is there a better way to see all the commands?
Finally, What do you think of the GUI interface to Herc?? Is it worth the money?? (I'm talking about the pay for GUI Herc interface.)
Oh, damn, a fourth and final question:? Are there instructions I can read on adding storage?? I'd like to add some additional drives and then create some new USERIDS?for VM.? I did this as a systems programmer, but I know there are some differences (especially in creating the physical hardware).
When I look at the DMKRIO?ASSEMBLE on the F disk, I notice drives not found in the?vm370ce.conf file.? What am I missing?
Thanks! :)?
|
Re: Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)
I think we are confused about what you are asking. IBM implemented the OSI 7-layer model via multiple products, two of which I remember were ? OSI/FILE SERVICES – provides for FTAM file transfers ? & ? OSI/COMMUNICATION SUBSYSTEM – which provides the underlying OSI network layers….. ? … I never did manage to transfer a file using these products…. ? … if you are asking about TCP/IP then I always thought that came from the University of Wisconsin but in this rather long thread about TCP/IP on MVS ?
? Lynn Wheeler, whose posts I generally trust, asserts it was an IBM product. I assume IBM wrote it in Pascal because that was the nearest think to “C” they had at the time… .. and of course the MVS product was basically the VM product ported to MVS. It required some extra work as there was no VMCF or IUCV in MVS… ? .. and if its SNA, which IBM has suggested is OSI layer compliant, then for a long time there was no SNA in VM. Some might say there still isn’t as basically what you get is the MVS VTAM machine running under GCS which is a “sort of virtual MVS”… ? Dave ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Michael Burke
Sent: 19 October 2022 22:49
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)?
On Oct 19, 2022, at 2:29 PM, Bertram Moshier <BertramMoshier@...> wrote:
So, the work to get VM/CE to support the OSI 7 layer model would be about the same as what it took IBM to do initially.? Am I?missing something? When did IBM support OSI 7 layer model?? I was involved with adding X.25 to IBM 3705 in EP mode. IBM had X.25 support in NCP mode as a RFPQ.?
Michael
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Re: Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)
On Oct 19, 2022, at 2:29 PM, Bertram Moshier <BertramMoshier@...> wrote:
So, the work to get VM/CE to support the OSI 7 layer model would be about the same as what it took IBM to do initially.? Am I?missing something?
==================
When did IBM support OSI 7 layer model??
They supported SNA.?
I was involved with adding X.25 to IBM 3705 in EP mode. IBM had X.25 support in NCP mode as a RFPQ.?
Michael
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Re: Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)
Rene, ? Yes, very similar. I didn’t know it had stopped working. Could be the SYSNAME. Might be worth having a long. The ‘75’ TCPIP instruction as well…. Dave ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of René Ferland
Sent: 19 October 2022 22:07
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)? On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 01:47 PM, Dave Wade wrote: It could be less if you leverage the support in the underlying host OS => windows/linux/macos.
Isn't it (in a certain way) what the NICOF program of Hans Latz was doing? I remember there was a disconnected virtual machine TCPIPXY running on VM/370 and a Java machine on the host connecting to it.
Personally, I liked NICOF quite much, although it was probably not very secure (and never pretended to be if I am right). NICOF does not work on VM/370 CE anymore. Someone told me that the connection between the Java machine and the TCPIPXY virtual machine gets confused by the SYSNAME added in Sixpack 1.3. But It could be something else.
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Re: Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 01:47 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
It could be less if you leverage the support in the underlying host OS => windows/linux/macos.
Isn't it (in a certain way) what the NICOF program of Hans Latz was doing? I remember there was a disconnected virtual machine TCPIPXY running on VM/370 and a Java machine on the host connecting to it.
Personally, I liked NICOF quite much, although it was probably not very secure (and never pretended to be if I am right). NICOF does not work on VM/370 CE anymore. Someone told me that the connection between the Java machine and the TCPIPXY virtual machine gets confused by the SYSNAME added in Sixpack 1.3. But It could be something else.
?
Rene FERLAND, Montreal
?
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Mark A. Stevens
Jim Snellen
René Ferland