Re: Do I have a looping issue?
On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 07:33 PM, Jim Snellen wrote:
Am I doing something wrong to cause this?
You are not doing anything wrong Jim. IIRC, these messages come from the tailoring of the OS by Hercules, as specified by the OSTAILOR statement in the configuration file. Check the documentation of Hercules to set this parameter to an appropriate value for you.? Cheers, Rene FERLAND, Montreal
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Do I have a looping issue?
I am running VM/370 with DOS/VS as a guest machine and MVS 3.8J TK4- as a guest machine.? I use HercGUI and Hercules version 4.4.1.10647-SDL-gd0ccfbc9.? I've recently noticed that a recurring display occurs:
22:21:46.721 000060B8 HHC02324I PSW=078D2000000383EC INST=BA661000? ? ?CS? ? 6,6,0(1)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?compare_and_swap
22:21:46.721 000060B8 HHC02326I V:00FE3E30:R:00000000007E3E30:K:06=009BCD10 809BCF98 00404040 40404040? .......q.
22:21:46.722 000060B8 HHC02269I GR00=00000001 GR01=00FE3E30 GR02=00FE3000 GR03=00FE3000
22:21:46.722 000060B8 HHC02269I GR04=009BC7B0 GR05=00000C5C GR06=009BCD10 GR07=00000C54
22:21:46.722 000060B8 HHC02269I GR08=00000001 GR09=00000003 GR10=009BDB58 GR11=009BDE48
22:21:46.722 000060B8 HHC02269I GR12=60038376 GR13=0009C978 GR14=40017C44 GR15=009BDB58
22:21:46.722 000060B8 HHC02271I CR00=81800CC0 CR01=0FFF9C00 CR02=FFFFFFFF CR03=00000000
22:21:46.722 000060B8 HHC02271I CR04=00000000 CR05=00000000 CR06=87FBAE10 CR07=00000000
22:21:46.722 000060B8 HHC02271I CR08=00000000 CR09=00000000 CR10=00000000 CR11=00000000
22:21:46.722 000060B8 HHC02271I CR12=00000000 CR13=00000000 CR14=EFC00000 CR15=00000000
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC00801I Processor CP00: Protection exception code 0004 ilc 4
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC02324I PSW=078D2000000383EC INST=BA661000? ? ?CS? ? 6,6,0(1)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?compare_and_swap
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC02326I V:00FE3E30:R:00000000007E3E30:K:06=809BCD10 809BCF98 00404040 40404040? .......q.
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC02269I GR00=00000000 GR01=00FE3E30 GR02=00FE3000 GR03=00FE3000
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC02269I GR04=009BC7B0 GR05=00000C5C GR06=809BCD10 GR07=00000C54
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC02269I GR08=00000001 GR09=00000000 GR10=009BDB58 GR11=009BDDA8
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC02269I GR12=60038376 GR13=0009CA08 GR14=4001815A GR15=009BDB58
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC02271I CR00=81800CC0 CR01=0FFF9C00 CR02=FFFFFFFF CR03=00000000
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC02271I CR04=00000000 CR05=00000000 CR06=87FBAE10 CR07=00000000
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC02271I CR08=00000000 CR09=00000000 CR10=00000000 CR11=00000000
22:21:47.221 000060B8 HHC02271I CR12=00000000 CR13=00000000 CR14=EFC00000 CR15=00000000
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC00801I Processor CP00: Protection exception code 0004 ilc 4
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC02324I PSW=078D2000000383EC INST=BA661000? ? ?CS? ? 6,6,0(1)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?compare_and_swap
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC02326I V:00FE3E30:R:00000000007E3E30:K:06=009BCD10 809BCF98 00404040 40404040? .......q.
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC02269I GR00=00000001 GR01=00FE3E30 GR02=00FE3000 GR03=00FE3000
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC02269I GR04=009BC7B0 GR05=00000C5C GR06=009BCD10 GR07=00000C54
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC02269I GR08=00000001 GR09=00000003 GR10=009BDB58 GR11=009BDE48
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC02269I GR12=60038376 GR13=0009C978 GR14=40017C44 GR15=009BDB58
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC02271I CR00=81800CC0 CR01=0FFF9C00 CR02=FFFFFFFF CR03=00000000
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC02271I CR04=00000000 CR05=00000000 CR06=87FBAE10 CR07=00000000
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC02271I CR08=00000000 CR09=00000000 CR10=00000000 CR11=00000000
22:21:47.223 000060B8 HHC02271I CR12=00000000 CR13=00000000 CR14=EFC00000 CR15=00000000
22:21:47.603 000060B8 HHC01603I stopall
I pressed the STOP button to capture the above.
Am I doing something wrong to cause this?? It looks like these messages are going to the log file and there's a lot of these!
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Re: OSI was Re: [h390-vm] Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)
On 25/10/2022 15:16, Harold Grovesteen wrote: While being made in jest, this view fails to recognize the contribution
to networking OSI has made and continues to make. "OSI" is really
three things:
- the Model,
- the Standards, and
- the Implementations.
The Model came out in the early 80's and is just as valuable today as
it was when it was developed for discussing networks of varying types.
The standards were an outgrowth of the model. The implementation was
the concrete realization of an OSI network based upon the standards.
(And, as has been observed, IBM's _implementation_ did not succeed in
the market place for a number of reasons. SNA itself being one of
them.) In a previous life I connected a Sun Solaris system to an IBM mainframe, using FTAM (OSI equivalent of FTP) over ISO CONS / X.25 PSDN. That was to retrieve SWIFT MT940 files from bank in Germany. At the same place we also used X.400 messaging to transact with EDI partners, for just-in-time fulfilment (this was at boo.com back in 1999). ISO networking was also implemented as DECnet Phase V a.k.a. DECnet/OSI. Systems with this could be configured with "dual towers" (stacks), supporting legacy Phase IV addressing and applications, plus Phase V complete with NSAPs etc. In previous previous lives I've used this with DEC X.500 Directory Server and MAILbus X.400 MTA. ICL also adopted ISO networking for mainframe and midrange, via ICL OSLAN. At the first place I worked we had ICL Series 39, ICL TeamServer UNIX and VAX/VMS systems all communicating via an ISO TP4 national network. While TCP/IP "beat" out the OSI Layer 3 and 4 network standards and
obviated the need of the corresponding OSI compatible implementations,
OSI standards still persist in today's networking. SNMP being one of
the application protocols that continues today. X.3, another example,
has migrated into Telent. IS-IS, the routing protocol (an application
level protocol used between routers), came from the OSI world. Also LDAP being a paired back version X.500/DAP, with functionality which pales in comparison with its forebear. X.509 certificates underpin things such as SSL/TLS and IPsec. And much ASN.1 to be found in the world of telecoms. Probably numerous other examples of OSI legacy. Andrew
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Re: Would anyone like ....
I fully understood your personal goals. However, the other side of the
question, "anyone" in the title, did not include this alternative view
that I felt deserved mentioning. That's all.
Harold
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 08:31 -0500, Bertram Moshier wrote: Hello Harold,
As the originator of this thread, my goal was two fold. First, to
provide a file level backup (and possibly restore) solution. Second,
it was to get back into VM again. I stopped using VM, unfortunately
in 1992 or so (other than as a G user).
It is why I wrote the subject as "Would anyone like ..." I thought
maybe there was already an existing VM/CE solution. From what I'm
reading there isn't a VM/CE file level backup solution. I even
remember reading one person saying he'd like to use it on a live
VM/ESA real iron system.
I look forward to bringing it back to life for my own resurrection in
the VM world. At the time people liked the approach to ask me to
present at Share and IBM wanted to buy the rights from OCF to it.
I hope this reply answers some of your questions. As for using
Windows to backup our system, sure but its like doing a DDR backup
and restore. You lose all of the system changes since the last DDR
or Windows backup. It also wouldn't help the VM/ESA guy or help me
come back to VM.
Bertram Moshier
On Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 07:41 Harold Grovesteen <h.grovsteen@...>
wrote:
I have watched this thread and continue to come away with "what is
the
objective of this discussion?" Is it about backing up your VM DASD
or
is it about resurrecting some past capability? I realize it could
be
both.
But, no one has mentioned that in the Hercules world, backing up
ones
DASD can be done quite easily. Place all of your DASD host files
in
the same directory. Shut down VM. Compress and zip up all of the
DASD
images into an archive file.
Recovery is the reverse, but attach your unzipped DASD volume(s)
from
which you want to recover files or minidisks to those already gened
extra drives in VM and move what needs moving. The Hercules
configuration file makes this connection.
Be careful to preserve shadow files if you are using them.
This may not work as desired so feel free to shoot it down. Just
an
approach I have not seen discussed.
Recovery is ad hoc in most cases. So some augmentation with some
VM
data when the backup is made might help. But this boils down to
level
of effort. Let the host do the heavy lifting where it can.
Some folks like to stay within the "VM walls". That is perfectly
OK,
but we are living in a different world with Hercules and can
approach
problems with Hercules and its host being part of the solution.
Harold Grovesteen
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 08:54 -0500, Bertram Moshier wrote:
+Hi,
I'm wondering if a VM Backup program would be useful for people using
VM/CE. I can see both reasons being yes and no. Thus my question
about a VM Backup program for VM/CE?
Thanks.
|
OSI was Re: [h390-vm] Three questions about VM/CE (Left, middle, and right field question)
While being made in jest, this view fails to recognize the contribution
to networking OSI has made and continues to make. "OSI" is really
three things:
- the Model,
- the Standards, and
- the Implementations.
The Model came out in the early 80's and is just as valuable today as
it was when it was developed for discussing networks of varying types.
The standards were an outgrowth of the model. The implementation was
the concrete realization of an OSI network based upon the standards.
(And, as has been observed, IBM's _implementation_ did not succeed in
the market place for a number of reasons. SNA itself being one of
them.)
While TCP/IP "beat" out the OSI Layer 3 and 4 network standards and
obviated the need of the corresponding OSI compatible implementations,
OSI standards still persist in today's networking. SNMP being one of
the application protocols that continues today. X.3, another example,
has migrated into Telent. IS-IS, the routing protocol (an application
level protocol used between routers), came from the OSI world.
_Because_ TCP/IP is limited to layers 3 and 4, when a network using
TCP/IP needed to implement various applications, where did it go?
Reinventing the wheel being a waste of time, OSI application layer
standards and implementations were a ready source for these missing
layers in TCP/IP. Swap out the OSI Layer 4 interface for a host's
socket implementation and away you go.
And then there are Layers 1 and 2.
Ultimately, the "winner" in the world of networking has and is today
determined by market forces, not technical superiority. The
implementation that wins in the market place forces the winning
standard. Not the other way around.
Harold Grovesteen
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 10:56 -0700, Drew Derbyshire wrote: This a family oriented group.
Please don't use four letters words like "OSI" (especially since OSI
lost the war to TCP/IP around same time UUCP did!)
|
Re: Would anyone like ....
Hello Harold,
As the originator of this thread, my goal was two fold.? First, to provide a file level backup (and possibly restore) solution.? Second, it was to get back into VM again.? I stopped using VM, unfortunately in 1992 or so (other than as a G user).
It is why I wrote the subject as "Would anyone like ..."? I thought maybe there was already an existing VM/CE solution.? From what I'm reading there isn't a VM/CE file level backup solution.? I even remember reading one person saying he'd like to use it on a live VM/ESA real iron system.
I look forward to bringing it back to life for my own resurrection in the VM world.? At the time people liked the approach to ask me to present at Share and IBM wanted to buy the rights from OCF to it.
I hope this reply answers some of your questions.? As for using Windows to backup our system, sure but its like doing a DDR backup and restore.? You lose all of the system changes since the last DDR or Windows backup.? It also wouldn't help the VM/ESA guy or help me come back to VM.
Bertram Moshier
I have watched this thread and continue to come away with "what is the
objective of this discussion?"? Is it about backing up your VM DASD or
is it about resurrecting some past capability?? I realize it could be
both.
But, no one has mentioned that in the Hercules world, backing up ones
DASD can be done quite easily.? Place all of your DASD host files in
the same directory.? Shut down VM.? Compress and zip up all of the DASD
images into an archive file.
Recovery is the reverse, but attach your unzipped DASD volume(s) from
which you want to recover files or minidisks to those already gened
extra drives in VM and move what needs moving.? The Hercules
configuration file makes this connection.
Be careful to preserve shadow files if you are using them.
This may not work as desired so feel free to shoot it down.? Just an
approach I have not seen discussed.
Recovery is ad hoc in most cases.? So some augmentation with some VM
data when the backup is made might help.? But this boils down to level
of effort.? Let the host do the heavy lifting where it can.
Some folks like to stay within the "VM walls".? That is perfectly OK,
but we are living in a different world with Hercules and can approach
problems with Hercules and its host being part of the solution.
Harold Grovesteen
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 08:54 -0500, Bertram Moshier wrote:
> +Hi,
>
>
> I'm wondering if a VM Backup program would be useful for people using
> VM/CE.? I can see both reasons being yes and no.? Thus my question
> about a VM Backup program for VM/CE?
>
> Thanks.
>
|
Re: Would anyone like ....
I have watched this thread and continue to come away with "what is the
objective of this discussion?" Is it about backing up your VM DASD or
is it about resurrecting some past capability? I realize it could be
both.
But, no one has mentioned that in the Hercules world, backing up ones
DASD can be done quite easily. Place all of your DASD host files in
the same directory. Shut down VM. Compress and zip up all of the DASD
images into an archive file.
Recovery is the reverse, but attach your unzipped DASD volume(s) from
which you want to recover files or minidisks to those already gened
extra drives in VM and move what needs moving. The Hercules
configuration file makes this connection.
Be careful to preserve shadow files if you are using them.
This may not work as desired so feel free to shoot it down. Just an
approach I have not seen discussed.
Recovery is ad hoc in most cases. So some augmentation with some VM
data when the backup is made might help. But this boils down to level
of effort. Let the host do the heavy lifting where it can.
Some folks like to stay within the "VM walls". That is perfectly OK,
but we are living in a different world with Hercules and can approach
problems with Hercules and its host being part of the solution.
Harold Grovesteen
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 08:54 -0500, Bertram Moshier wrote: +Hi,
I'm wondering if a VM Backup program would be useful for people using
VM/CE. I can see both reasons being yes and no. Thus my question
about a VM Backup program for VM/CE?
Thanks.
|
Re: #VMCE #rexx EE goes XEDIT - compiling a wish list
#VMCE
#rexx
On Sat, Oct 15, 2022 at 04:57 PM, Martin Scheffler wrote:
The ingredients for the ALL macro will follow (SET SELECT, SET DISPLAY ...).
The first prototype of the ALL command (builtin, not a REXX macro) is here. SET SELECT and SET DISPLAY are operational and almost complete. SET SCOPE is implemented but now there is *much* legwork to do to make all existing commands obey the new situation created by SET SCOPE DISPLAY.? I will push my enhancements to GitHub after some more testing. Should I consider publishing binaries as alpha preview releases ? See screenshots: look for the numbers in the prefix areaHighlighting of lines with selection level > 0
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Re: Would anyone like ....
I like the idea that we are not limited to what was the physical size of the tapes. In an emulated world like Hercules, I would like to set the size of my backup file at just under what I can write to a real CD.
Especially when it comes time to separate one user's files from all the rest and deliver it to that user to take away. I had to do that manually when one of our users moved from one university to another.
Or separating one project from the rest for other to work on.
/Tom Kern
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 10/24/2022 4:50 PM, Fish Fish wrote: Bertram Moshier wrote:
[...]
As it has been awhile and I'm new to VM/CE, one of the things
I need to know is how much data can I get on a 6250 reel of tape? With Hercules, this is user configurable and controlled by the optional "MAXSIZE=" and "EOTMARGIN=" tape drive device parameters:
*
If not specified, then basically there is no limit as far as Hercules is concerned. It will continue writing to your emulated tape drive device file until your hard drive fills up (or your job finishes, whichever comes first).
If you're just trying to refresh your memory regarding how much data one could typically fit on a REAL 6250 bpi reel of tape back in the day, the following are the values as documented by my HercGUI:
2048MB (typical 1370' 3490E cartridge)
170MB (typical 2400' 9-track @ 6250 BPI)
2048KB (~20 inches of 3490E cartridge)
128KB (~20 inches of 9-track @ 6250 BPI)
I no longer recall where I got those values from but I'm guessing they're reasonably accurate.
What other backup devices does VM/CE support beside a 6250 drive? VM/CE? I have no idea.
But Hercules supports emulation of 3410, 3420, 3422, 3430, 3480, 3490, 3590, 9347 and 8809 model tape drives.
Emulated tape drives can be defined as AWS or HET files, or OMA or TDF files, or even honest to goodness actual REAL SCSI attached tape drives. That is to say, if you have a REAL (as in an actual physical hardware device) tape drive physically connected to your system as a SCSI device, Hercules can use it. Otherwise the Hercules tape drive is emulated in the same way disk drives and card readers, etc, are emulated: by simply reading or writing to a disk file on your host [Windows/Linux/etc] filesystem.
Given there aren't real tapes, how does changing tapes work for Herc
and VM/CE? As explained above, the MAXSIZE= and EOTMARGIN= emulated tape drive device parameters control when the end-of-tape reflector is reached. As far as how the guest operating system deals with such things, I'm sure it varies from one operating system to the next. <shrug>
Hope that helps!
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On the main Hercules page, if you scroll down about 1/2 way, you should see a section titled "PDF manuals":
*
PLEASE NOTE the disclaimer!
"The below PDF manuals are for the original 4.0 version
of Hercules Hyperion, not for this SoftDevLabs version.
At the moment however they should still be reasonably
accurate. Over time as more and more changes are made to
the SDL version however, they might not be. The official
web documentation however should always be accurate and
considered as authoritative."
Peter's PDF manuals are quite old (2015!):
*
and a LOT has changed in Hercules since the time his manuals were originally written, so there are probably "edge case" details that are incorrect/inaccurate in a few places here and there, but the BULK of how Hercules works and how to use it, etc, should still be reasonably accurate (although I admit to not having referenced them in such a long time I don't really know that for sure).
But for someone trying to learn Hercules, they should definitely be good enough I would think.
Hope that helps!
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
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Re: Would anyone like ....
Bertram Moshier wrote: [...] As it has been awhile and I'm new to VM/CE, one of the things
I need to know is how much data can I get on a 6250 reel of tape? With Hercules, this is user configurable and controlled by the optional "MAXSIZE=" and "EOTMARGIN=" tape drive device parameters: * If not specified, then basically there is no limit as far as Hercules is concerned. It will continue writing to your emulated tape drive device file until your hard drive fills up (or your job finishes, whichever comes first). If you're just trying to refresh your memory regarding how much data one could typically fit on a REAL 6250 bpi reel of tape back in the day, the following are the values as documented by my HercGUI: 2048MB (typical 1370' 3490E cartridge) 170MB (typical 2400' 9-track @ 6250 BPI) 2048KB (~20 inches of 3490E cartridge) 128KB (~20 inches of 9-track @ 6250 BPI) I no longer recall where I got those values from but I'm guessing they're reasonably accurate. What other backup devices does VM/CE support beside a 6250 drive? VM/CE? I have no idea. But Hercules supports emulation of 3410, 3420, 3422, 3430, 3480, 3490, 3590, 9347 and 8809 model tape drives. Emulated tape drives can be defined as AWS or HET files, or OMA or TDF files, or even honest to goodness actual REAL SCSI attached tape drives. That is to say, if you have a REAL (as in an actual physical hardware device) tape drive physically connected to your system as a SCSI device, Hercules can use it. Otherwise the Hercules tape drive is emulated in the same way disk drives and card readers, etc, are emulated: by simply reading or writing to a disk file on your host [Windows/Linux/etc] filesystem. Given there aren't real tapes, how does changing tapes work for Herc
and VM/CE? As explained above, the MAXSIZE= and EOTMARGIN= emulated tape drive device parameters control when the end-of-tape reflector is reached. As far as how the guest operating system deals with such things, I'm sure it varies from one operating system to the next. <shrug> Hope that helps! -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 02:33 PM, Ren¨¦ Ferland wrote:
It might be useful to download the PDF of the Hercules User Reference Guide.
A version 4 Hercules manual can be found at: I'm sure there are other places. ?... Mark S.
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Re: Would anyone like ....
On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 02:00 PM, Bertram Moshier wrote:
As it has been awhile and I'm new to VM/CE, one of the things I need to know is how much data can I get on a 6250 reel of tape?
Tape files are not limited to feet of tape, but to the size of the filesystem/available space.
What other backup devices does VM/CE support beside a 6250 drive?
You can, if you have it, attach real devices, like SCSI tape drives to Hercules, and use those. I don't so I don't know the details.
Given there aren't real tapes, how does changing tapes work for Herc and VM/CE?
To define a new tape, Use the hetinit command to create an uncompressed AWS, or a compressed HET tape file. For documentation https://hercdoc.glanzmann.org/V400/HerculesOperationsandUtilities.pdf Examples: Create a new nonlabelled uncompressed tape, on a Linux system. Create a new labelled compressed tape, on a Linux system. [xmas@vm370dev tapes]$ hetinit -?HHC02499I Hercules utility hetinit - HET IEHINITT - version 4.4.1.10647-SDL-gd0ccfbc9HHC01414I (C) Copyright 1999-2022 by Roger Bowler, Jan Jaeger, and othersHHC01417I ** The SoftDevLabs version of Hercules **HHC01415I Build date: May 29 2022 at 16:31:27hetinit: invalid option -- '?'HHC02729I Usage: hetinit [options] outfile [volser] [owner]HHC02728I?? outfile?? output fileHHC02729I Options:HHC02729I?? -d??????? disable compressionHHC02729I?? -h??????? display usage summaryHHC02729I?? -i??????? create an IEHINITT formatted tape (default: on)HHC02729I?? -n??????? create an NL tape[xmas@vm370dev tapes]$ hetinit -d -n `date +%F`.UNCOMPRESSED.NL.AWSHHC02499I Hercules utility hetinit - HET IEHINITT - version 4.4.1.10647-SDL-gd0ccfbc9HHC01414I (C) Copyright 1999-2022 by Roger Bowler, Jan Jaeger, and othersHHC01417I ** The SoftDevLabs version of Hercules **HHC01415I Build date: May 29 2022 at 16:31:27[xmas@vm370dev tapes]$ hetinit -d `date +%F`.COMPRESSED.NL.HET SL0001 XMASHHC02499I Hercules utility hetinit - HET IEHINITT - version 4.4.1.10647-SDL-gd0ccfbc9HHC01414I (C) Copyright 1999-2022 by Roger Bowler, Jan Jaeger, and othersHHC01417I ** The SoftDevLabs version of Hercules **HHC01415I Build date: May 29 2022 at 16:31:27[xmas@vm370dev tapes]$ In the Hercules/OPERATOR console, enter DEVINIT cuu path/to/file
HHC01603I DEVINIT 580 tapes/2022-10-24.UNCOMPRESSED.NL.AWS
HHC00221I 0:0580 Tape file tapes/2022-10-24.UNCOMPRESSED.NL.AWS, type AWS: format type AWS Format tape file
HHC02245I 0:0580 device initialized
Then attach the tape/file to a user.
/CP ATTACH 580 MAINT 181
/13:22:58
/13:22:58 TAPE 580 ATTACH TO MAINT 181
The tape is attached to MAINT on the VM370 system, and all the tape and vmfplc2 commands and parameters work. I Hope This Helps. ?... Mark S.
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Re: Would anyone like ....
On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 02:19 PM, Thomas Kern wrote:
A tape management system might need to be written too. And maybe a data compression option?
Data compressions is already in place at the Hercules level, when you create a tape. See: ? Hercules Emulator V4.00 ¨C Operations and Utilities Guide 5.16 HETINIT (Initialize an AWS or HET tape file), page 80 ?... Mark S.
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Re: Would anyone like ....
I have been thinking about this and why VM lacked some of the basic? subsystems needed for production work. Me and my company worked for many separate organisations over 30 years. We saw the same functionality but different versions of the VM software "stack".? I think the issue was that sharing was not enabled by companies for "not core business" reasons. We are a xxxx company not a software developer.
Practically, we would probably just have raced to the current unix situation if sharing could have been enabled; multiple software choices, many of which solve the same underlying problem, each supported by an army of elite fanatics who are certain theirs is the best way forward.?
At least we all agree that xedit was the best editor, except of course for Edgar :-)
On Mon, 24 Oct 2022, 15:42 Bob Bolch, < Bob@...> wrote: VM customers started sharing modifications and utilities decades before?there was any Internet. VM's ease of use, and the availability of?VM source code with a set of build tools, meant that? VM user code sharing and distribution of features written by customers was the order of the day. Bob Bolch ?
On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:22 AM Anthony Smith < anthony@...> wrote: I am sure there are many here that worked on many similar problems. A pity that Share wasn't as popular as GitHub seems to be and that everyone seemed more concerned about sharing IP.
OH!
Your story remnided me of a second change I did to VMFPLC2.? It was an important part of determining the differences / changes. I forget what I changed, but know I did change something.
Are the Share presentations from 1981 and 1982 still available?
I can appreciate the work you did for your company.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 05:08 Anthony Smith < anthony@...> wrote: Fascinating that I built much the same thing. To make it work also built a job? scheduler and something to allow security to handle access, something to issue privileged commands etc etc.
This started off under VPS and then got converted to VM. As far as I remember the lot got replaced by the VMxxxxxxxx products (secure, tape, backup, restore etc). Something about auditability and split responsibilities.
The new stuff never did handle the database backups, that continued to need custom code to create static files that could then be backed up.
It used file modify dates to do it's delta processing. We did build something that did delta processing a la "diff" but the storage requirements got large real quick. Our code storage repository? (disconnected user) did use update for diff processing (which save loads of space) when file type allowed.
I guess I am just one of the many programmers that built such things.?
Hi,
The software included a very basic form of tape management.? It would tell the operator to mount a new tape and how to label the one just taken down.? The software would keep track of the contents of each reel.? This way one could do a restore of an individual file or entire mini-disk.
The base delta concept helped reduce the number of tapes and files proceed each night.? Only once a month did we do an entire system, then weekly (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5), and daily.?
A tape management system might need to be written too. And maybe
a data compression option?
/Tom Kern
On 10/23/2022 3:00 PM, Bertram Moshier
wrote:
Hi,
As it has been awhile and
I'm new to VM/CE, one of the things I need to know is how
much data can I get on a 6250 reel of tape?
What other backup devices
does VM/CE support beside a 6250 drive?
Given there aren't real
tapes, how does changing tapes work for Herc and VM/CE?
How I did this is coming
back, but the details are missing from my memory.? I think I
let VMFPLC2 tell me when the tape was full.? But this time
around, I'd like to do preliminary estimates.
|
Re: Would anyone like ....
VM customers started sharing modifications and utilities decades before?there was any Internet. VM's ease of use, and the availability of?VM source code with a set of build tools, meant that? VM user code sharing and distribution of features written by customers was the order of the day. Bob Bolch ?
On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:22 AM Anthony Smith < anthony@...> wrote: I am sure there are many here that worked on many similar problems. A pity that Share wasn't as popular as GitHub seems to be and that everyone seemed more concerned about sharing IP.
OH!
Your story remnided me of a second change I did to VMFPLC2.? It was an important part of determining the differences / changes. I forget what I changed, but know I did change something.
Are the Share presentations from 1981 and 1982 still available?
I can appreciate the work you did for your company.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 05:08 Anthony Smith < anthony@...> wrote: Fascinating that I built much the same thing. To make it work also built a job? scheduler and something to allow security to handle access, something to issue privileged commands etc etc.
This started off under VPS and then got converted to VM. As far as I remember the lot got replaced by the VMxxxxxxxx products (secure, tape, backup, restore etc). Something about auditability and split responsibilities.
The new stuff never did handle the database backups, that continued to need custom code to create static files that could then be backed up.
It used file modify dates to do it's delta processing. We did build something that did delta processing a la "diff" but the storage requirements got large real quick. Our code storage repository? (disconnected user) did use update for diff processing (which save loads of space) when file type allowed.
I guess I am just one of the many programmers that built such things.?
Hi,
The software included a very basic form of tape management.? It would tell the operator to mount a new tape and how to label the one just taken down.? The software would keep track of the contents of each reel.? This way one could do a restore of an individual file or entire mini-disk.
The base delta concept helped reduce the number of tapes and files proceed each night.? Only once a month did we do an entire system, then weekly (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5), and daily.?
A tape management system might need to be written too. And maybe
a data compression option?
/Tom Kern
On 10/23/2022 3:00 PM, Bertram Moshier
wrote:
Hi,
As it has been awhile and
I'm new to VM/CE, one of the things I need to know is how
much data can I get on a 6250 reel of tape?
What other backup devices
does VM/CE support beside a 6250 drive?
Given there aren't real
tapes, how does changing tapes work for Herc and VM/CE?
How I did this is coming
back, but the details are missing from my memory.? I think I
let VMFPLC2 tell me when the tape was full.? But this time
around, I'd like to do preliminary estimates.
|
Re: Would anyone like ....
My system did full backups of each minidisk on Sunday and then deltas for Monday through Saturday. We already had a mechanism to ask the Operators to mount a tape. I don't remember if there was any Tape Label recording. But I did not do any database of files that were backed up. We did not do enough restores to really need to check. The Operators just started with the most current tape and worked back to Sunday's tape. They were all on a rack nearby.
If SQLite3 is available on VM/CE, it might be useful for tape management and file logging. Since then I have used databases more than I did then (never) and I like them for these kinds of things and for reporting on these kinds of things.
/Tom Kern
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 10/24/2022 5:38 AM, Bertram Moshier wrote: Hi,
The software included a very basic form of tape management.? It would tell the operator to mount a new tape and how to label the one just taken down.? The software would keep track of the contents of each reel.? This way one could do a restore of an individual file or entire mini-disk.
The base delta concept helped reduce the number of tapes and files proceed each night.? Only once a month did we do an entire system, then weekly (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5), and daily.
|
Re: Would anyone like ....
I am sure there are many here that worked on many similar problems. A pity that Share wasn't as popular as GitHub seems to be and that everyone seemed more concerned about sharing IP.
OH!
Your story remnided me of a second change I did to VMFPLC2.? It was an important part of determining the differences / changes. I forget what I changed, but know I did change something.
Are the Share presentations from 1981 and 1982 still available?
I can appreciate the work you did for your company.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 05:08 Anthony Smith < anthony@...> wrote: Fascinating that I built much the same thing. To make it work also built a job? scheduler and something to allow security to handle access, something to issue privileged commands etc etc.
This started off under VPS and then got converted to VM. As far as I remember the lot got replaced by the VMxxxxxxxx products (secure, tape, backup, restore etc). Something about auditability and split responsibilities.
The new stuff never did handle the database backups, that continued to need custom code to create static files that could then be backed up.
It used file modify dates to do it's delta processing. We did build something that did delta processing a la "diff" but the storage requirements got large real quick. Our code storage repository? (disconnected user) did use update for diff processing (which save loads of space) when file type allowed.
I guess I am just one of the many programmers that built such things.?
Hi,
The software included a very basic form of tape management.? It would tell the operator to mount a new tape and how to label the one just taken down.? The software would keep track of the contents of each reel.? This way one could do a restore of an individual file or entire mini-disk.
The base delta concept helped reduce the number of tapes and files proceed each night.? Only once a month did we do an entire system, then weekly (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5), and daily.?
A tape management system might need to be written too. And maybe
a data compression option?
/Tom Kern
On 10/23/2022 3:00 PM, Bertram Moshier
wrote:
Hi,
As it has been awhile and
I'm new to VM/CE, one of the things I need to know is how
much data can I get on a 6250 reel of tape?
What other backup devices
does VM/CE support beside a 6250 drive?
Given there aren't real
tapes, how does changing tapes work for Herc and VM/CE?
How I did this is coming
back, but the details are missing from my memory.? I think I
let VMFPLC2 tell me when the tape was full.? But this time
around, I'd like to do preliminary estimates.
|
Re: Would anyone like ....
OH!
Your story remnided me of a second change I did to VMFPLC2.? It was an important part of determining the differences / changes. I forget what I changed, but know I did change something.
Are the Share presentations from 1981 and 1982 still available?
I can appreciate the work you did for your company.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 05:08 Anthony Smith < anthony@...> wrote: Fascinating that I built much the same thing. To make it work also built a job? scheduler and something to allow security to handle access, something to issue privileged commands etc etc.
This started off under VPS and then got converted to VM. As far as I remember the lot got replaced by the VMxxxxxxxx products (secure, tape, backup, restore etc). Something about auditability and split responsibilities.
The new stuff never did handle the database backups, that continued to need custom code to create static files that could then be backed up.
It used file modify dates to do it's delta processing. We did build something that did delta processing a la "diff" but the storage requirements got large real quick. Our code storage repository? (disconnected user) did use update for diff processing (which save loads of space) when file type allowed.
I guess I am just one of the many programmers that built such things.?
Hi,
The software included a very basic form of tape management.? It would tell the operator to mount a new tape and how to label the one just taken down.? The software would keep track of the contents of each reel.? This way one could do a restore of an individual file or entire mini-disk.
The base delta concept helped reduce the number of tapes and files proceed each night.? Only once a month did we do an entire system, then weekly (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5), and daily.?
A tape management system might need to be written too. And maybe
a data compression option?
/Tom Kern
On 10/23/2022 3:00 PM, Bertram Moshier
wrote:
Hi,
As it has been awhile and
I'm new to VM/CE, one of the things I need to know is how
much data can I get on a 6250 reel of tape?
What other backup devices
does VM/CE support beside a 6250 drive?
Given there aren't real
tapes, how does changing tapes work for Herc and VM/CE?
How I did this is coming
back, but the details are missing from my memory.? I think I
let VMFPLC2 tell me when the tape was full.? But this time
around, I'd like to do preliminary estimates.
|
Re: Would anyone like ....
Fascinating that I built much the same thing. To make it work also built a job? scheduler and something to allow security to handle access, something to issue privileged commands etc etc.
This started off under VPS and then got converted to VM. As far as I remember the lot got replaced by the VMxxxxxxxx products (secure, tape, backup, restore etc). Something about auditability and split responsibilities.
The new stuff never did handle the database backups, that continued to need custom code to create static files that could then be backed up.
It used file modify dates to do it's delta processing. We did build something that did delta processing a la "diff" but the storage requirements got large real quick. Our code storage repository? (disconnected user) did use update for diff processing (which save loads of space) when file type allowed.
I guess I am just one of the many programmers that built such things.?
Hi,
The software included a very basic form of tape management.? It would tell the operator to mount a new tape and how to label the one just taken down.? The software would keep track of the contents of each reel.? This way one could do a restore of an individual file or entire mini-disk.
The base delta concept helped reduce the number of tapes and files proceed each night.? Only once a month did we do an entire system, then weekly (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5), and daily.?
A tape management system might need to be written too. And maybe
a data compression option?
/Tom Kern
On 10/23/2022 3:00 PM, Bertram Moshier
wrote:
Hi,
As it has been awhile and
I'm new to VM/CE, one of the things I need to know is how
much data can I get on a 6250 reel of tape?
What other backup devices
does VM/CE support beside a 6250 drive?
Given there aren't real
tapes, how does changing tapes work for Herc and VM/CE?
How I did this is coming
back, but the details are missing from my memory.? I think I
let VMFPLC2 tell me when the tape was full.? But this time
around, I'd like to do preliminary estimates.
|
Ren¨¦ Ferland
Jim Snellen
Martin Scheffler
Thomas Kern
Mark A. Stevens
Anthony Smith