David Durand wrote:

From an emulation point of view, the current behavior is
reasonable, since the actual action of a diagnose instruction
executed in supervisor mode is completely undefined, and could
even potentially disable the hardware (as it seems that some
models may have allowed diagnose to change the microprogram
control store).

Quite true.

However it's not required. Faithful implementation seems
impossible: There is little if any available documentation
about what DIAG did on different models,

That's why IBM says not to use it: unless you code VERY carefully (check you model, etc) you can't be sure of what it'll do. The same DIAG instruction on one model would very likely behave MUCH differently on a different model. DIAG is basically "IBM's instruction" and not one that its customers were meant to use. It was basically designed (originally) for "IBM use only".

and I suspect that there are very few (if any) surviving programs
where DIAG is used for anything other than communicating with CP.

I'm not so sure. I suspect they're probably are. Hercules for instance supports two different "Power Off" diagnose instructions: one for the 9221 and the other for 4361 and 937X (e.g. 9371).

Given that, I think an argument could be made that Hercules can
just as well print a message on the console when DIAG is executed
in supervisor state, rather than signalling an exception. This
would amount to treating Hercules as a new model,

Hercules is ALREADY a "new model". Hercules is a Hercules model mainframe. It's its own unique model of mainframe, unlike any other.

and defining DIAG for that model in a "harmless", potentially
helpful way. The Hercules console function has to be optional
for security reasons, but if the conditions are met for the
CP DIAGNOSE '008' case, the option could choose between printing
a message (DISABLED HERCULES CONSOLE REQUEST IGNORED: 'command',
and the current extension.

I believe the DIAG8CMD option already covers that. But instead of a "request ignored" message, you get an Operation Exception Program Interrupt. (Or is it a Specification Exception? I forget!)

Depending on what assumptions are made by the implementation of
HCP, it might make sense to alter registers to reflect failure.
Since the architecture allows anything, and requires nothing,
the Hercules behavior of DIAG could be defined in a way that
would not break HCP, if present.

I guess I'm coming to this party late. What exactly is the problem (issue) again?

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

开云体育

I’d guess the HCP module isn’t setting an operation exception handler before performing the DIAG 8. ?

开云体育

On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 08:57 PM, Rhialto wrote:

There is just one thing wrong with it: if it is not allowed in the
hercules config file (with DIAG8CMD ENABLE), VM crashes:

I do not know enough to determine the cause of VM crashing...

but nothing is wrong in NOT allowing a diag call to hercules
unless explicitly enabled in the configuration,
or later by a hercules console command

enrico

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 04:58 PM, Bertram Moshier wrote:

Hello Drew,

?

Thanks!? I don't believe I can use RSCS for my VM Backup project.? It should lead me in the correct direction, though.

You might want to look at VM/Pass-Through documentation. There's not much though, and it was an added cost item.



Concerning backups, there's more than one way to skin this cat, since we are running on laptops/desktops/servers with disks that are carved up to emulate/represent IBM DASD. There's no one right way, but there are lots of interesting ways.

?... Mark S.

On Mon 28 Nov 2022 at 18:41:21 -0000, Dave Wade wrote:

Its already there. HCP command.

There is just one thing wrong with it: if it is not allowed in the
hercules config file (with DIAG8CMD ENABLE), VM crashes:

/hcp test
/19:54:55
HHC00009I RRR...RING...GGG!
/
/
/
/19:54:55 DMKDMP908I SYSTEM FAILURE; CODE PRG006 PROCESSOR 00
/
HHC00009I RRR...RING...GGG!
/
/
HHC00009I RRR...RING...GGG!
/
/
/VM/370 System Restart
/
/
/
/VM/370 Community Edition Version 1 Release 1.2 07/19/22 13:20:46
/
/
/DMKCPI971I System is Uniprocessor generated
/DMKCPI977I Free Trap Installed
/

-Olaf.
--
___ "Buying carbon credits is a bit like a serial killer paying someone else to
\X/ have kids to make his activity cost neutral." -The BOFH falu.nl@rhialto

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 02:58 PM, Bertram Moshier wrote:

Thanks!? I don't believe I can use RSCS for my VM Backup project.? It should lead me in the correct direction, though.

Honestly, I don't know why you want to ship backups between systems.? K.I.S.S. — Keep backups simple.

I personally don't even do backups from the guest OS instances.? On Linux, I just fully dump the host environments weekly and then take differential backups nightly; both go to an 512GB SD card. I prune such that I have monthly backups going back almost 2 years, weekly backups going back at least 90 days, and daily backups going back at least 30 days.

The downside of this I'd need to extract a minidisk or OS file from the host the disk image if I don't just restore the entire disk, but?c'est la vie …

(See??for my scripts)

开云体育

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022 at 01:18 PM, Bertram Moshier wrote:

Is it possible to have these two VM and Hercules systems on different physical Windows or Linux systems connected by a CTCA?

Yes.? It's called RSCS.? :-)

-ahd-

As an exercise for the reader, write a generic HYPER (Hypervisor) command which issued a Diag x'08' from CP to Hercules.? Make it class C or B.? You then need to enable the appropriate Hercules options as others have noted.

Bonus points if you get it added to the six pack distribution.? ;-)?

-ahd-

p.s. I actually did this … for my second level development system … contracting at Kingston in 1988 … on VM/XA.? That was long ago and far away; the building (025) doesn't even exist any more.??

On 11/25/22 18:36, Gregg Levine wrote:

I'm not the fellow here who's surrounded by DEC gear, but, ah, it's a
family of networking protocols used by that family to, ah,
communicate. People could send files to other systems, and naturally
get them back. They could also make use of an email idea.

Indeed they can. Great stuff!

However it's
biggest use happened to be to facilitate remote diagnosis of unhappy
DEC systems.

I assume you mean HECnet in particular, not DECnet in general, and are referring to the recent lengthy mailing list thread regarding debugging of some network stack implementation issues on TOPS-20.

We also should expect a response from the fellow as soon as a member
of his staff understands the email.

Well I am one such fellow, if the response you were expecting was from me!

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 05:37 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:

As far as documentation describing actual CTCA functionality goes (i.e. how it works and how to use it), there are the following IBM reference manuals:

* GA22-6983-00 IBM System-370 Special Feature Description - Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SA22-7091-01 ESA-390 (CTCA) Channel-to-Channel Adapter for the System-360 and System-370 I-O Interface
* SA22-7203-00 ESA-390 ESCON Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SB10-7034-04 System z - ESCON and FICON Channel-to-Channel Reference

There is a short intro to channel programming which can be found in the following, which might be of some help, too.

GC20-1667-1_intro360arch.pdf

?... Mark S.

Hello!
I'm not the fellow here who's surrounded by DEC gear, but, ah, it's a
family of networking protocols used by that family to, ah,
communicate. People could send files to other systems, and naturally
get them back. They could also make use of an email idea. However it's
biggest use happened to be to facilitate remote diagnosis of unhappy
DEC systems.

We also should expect a response from the fellow as soon as a member
of his staff understands the email.

Fish? What's that green thing in your bowl? Oh right, the pottery
whatsit that's usually found inside fish bowls.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 6:20 PM Bertram Moshier <herc370390vm@...> wrote:

Hey!

I'm not familiar with DECNet. I'm looking at the possibility of using CTCA to allow the VM Backup program to talk to other copies of itself.

The idea being offsite backup or copies of backups.

This wouldn't work in a mixed real iron and Hercules, from what I can tell.

Bertram / WB8ERT

On Fri, Nov 25, 2022, 17:08 Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8@...> wrote:

Hello!
I believe I originally proposed that sometime earlier. The idea was
that we'd each have our machines communicating over the Internet, and
sending and receiving files, and perhaps messages. Of course that one
is a bit more difficult. Oddly enough I first proposed this, well
before the Hobbyist DECNet project emerged, back when your wonderful
ideas on connecting the Hercules example to the outside world first
got launched.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022 at 6:17 PM Fish Fish <david.b.trout@...> wrote:

Bertram Moshier wrote:

[...]

I'm wondering is it possible to have

1) Two Hercules systems on the same Windows system
running VM and
2) Connect these two CMS users on each VM system via
a CTCA between these two Hercules systems?

Also:

Is it possible to have these two VM and Hercules systems
on different physical Windows or Linux systems connected
by a CTCA?

Yes to both.

If so, how? What should I read?

Start here:

*


As far as documentation describing actual CTCA functionality goes (i.e. how it works and how to use it), there are the following IBM reference manuals:

* GA22-6983-00 IBM System-370 Special Feature Description - Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SA22-7091-01 ESA-390 (CTCA) Channel-to-Channel Adapter for the System-360 and System-370 I-O Interface
* SA22-7203-00 ESA-390 ESCON Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SB10-7034-04 System z - ESCON and FICON Channel-to-Channel Reference

You might be able to find them on the web somewhere if you search hard enough. If you can't find them though, contact me off list and I'll send you a copy. I have them all.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

And we've gotten space allocated for the Rebel fleet which is moving
from Sullust.

And we've gotten more space allocated for the Rebel fleet which is
moving from Sullust.

Hello!
I believe I originally proposed that sometime earlier. The idea was
that we'd each have our machines communicating over the Internet, and
sending and receiving files, and perhaps messages. Of course that one
is a bit more difficult. Oddly enough I first proposed this, well
before the Hobbyist DECNet project emerged, back when your wonderful
ideas on connecting the Hercules example to the outside world first
got launched.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022 at 6:17 PM Fish Fish <david.b.trout@...> wrote:

Bertram Moshier wrote:

[...]

I'm wondering is it possible to have

1) Two Hercules systems on the same Windows system
running VM and
2) Connect these two CMS users on each VM system via
a CTCA between these two Hercules systems?

Also:

Is it possible to have these two VM and Hercules systems
on different physical Windows or Linux systems connected
by a CTCA?

Yes to both.

If so, how? What should I read?

Start here:

*


As far as documentation describing actual CTCA functionality goes (i.e. how it works and how to use it), there are the following IBM reference manuals:

* GA22-6983-00 IBM System-370 Special Feature Description - Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SA22-7091-01 ESA-390 (CTCA) Channel-to-Channel Adapter for the System-360 and System-370 I-O Interface
* SA22-7203-00 ESA-390 ESCON Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SB10-7034-04 System z - ESCON and FICON Channel-to-Channel Reference

You might be able to find them on the web somewhere if you search hard enough. If you can't find them though, contact me off list and I'll send you a copy. I have them all.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...

And we've gotten space allocated for the Rebel fleet which is moving
from Sullust.

Bertram Moshier wrote:

[...]

I'm wondering is it possible to have

1) Two Hercules systems on the same Windows system
running VM and
2) Connect these two CMS users on each VM system via
a CTCA between these two Hercules systems?

Also:

Is it possible to have these two VM and Hercules systems
on different physical Windows or Linux systems connected
by a CTCA?

Yes to both.

If so, how? What should I read?

Start here:

*


As far as documentation describing actual CTCA functionality goes (i.e. how it works and how to use it), there are the following IBM reference manuals:

* GA22-6983-00 IBM System-370 Special Feature Description - Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SA22-7091-01 ESA-390 (CTCA) Channel-to-Channel Adapter for the System-360 and System-370 I-O Interface
* SA22-7203-00 ESA-390 ESCON Channel-to-Channel Adapter
* SB10-7034-04 System z - ESCON and FICON Channel-to-Channel Reference

You might be able to find them on the web somewhere if you search hard enough. If you can't find them though, contact me off list and I'll send you a copy. I have them all.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...