Keyboard Shortcuts
Likes
- H390-Vm
- Messages
Search
This group is for all folks running the original IBM VM/370 Release 6 operating system (or later (e.g. VMTCE (Community Edition)) on Hercules. Like the other early IBM operating systems this version has always been in the public domain and so can be freely distributed. The base version as supplied by IBM is lacking in many facilities. IBM solved this by providing additional extension products which were licensed and so are not available. There are however many user enhancements available which can be installed. In addition, in order to get users up and running quickly updated "releases" of VM/370 included the most popular updates are available for download, so novices can start to learn VM without having to delve into the system internals. It is intended that this wiki will provide information on the base release and these updates.
The available versions are here :-
?
?
|
Re: Writing / reading text files with tapes
Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT I think the problem with tape dump files is either they are specific to a version of CMS or they are specific to a disk filesystem (ie EDF or non-EDF). Whichever it is, the result is that it is very easy to end up with a tape dump format tape which cannot be read by VM/370 CMS. For text files containing records that are 80 characters or less wide, the easiest approach is to use the "real" card reader and card punch. For everything else, I prefer to use VMARC which is like Zip for VM. There is a version installed on the Sixpack systems (as VMARC370). There is also a version called VMA which can be compiled and used on the host system, maybe with a little effort. Both can manipulate the same archive files in card image format which can be sent through the reader and punch. Have we already had this conversation recently? I feel like it's deja-vu all over again :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. |
|
Re: Writing / reading text files with tapes
开云体育Yes. There are some programs to around to take CMS “tape dump” files and extract the files ? ? Dave ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of adriansutherland67
Sent: 31 January 2020 19:58 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Writing / reading text files with tapes ? On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 07:44 PM, ScottC wrote:
Thanks Scott ... Looking at the manual, am I right in thinking these only work in the direction pc to host? |
|
Re: Writing / reading text files with tapes
Have you explored OMA tapes?? Never tried them under VM, but they work under MVS. ScottC
On Friday, January 31, 2020, 11:36:31 AM PST, adriansutherland67 <adrian@...> wrote:
Before I go down the route of punching files etc. is there a simple tool to read and add ASCII files, at the pc end, to tapes, covering to ebcdic and so on. I have looked but can't find much although I had assumed this was key functionality. Sorry if this is a stupid question! |
|
Writing / reading text files with tapes
Before I go down the route of punching files etc. is there a simple tool to read and add ASCII files, at the pc end, to tapes, covering to ebcdic and so on. I have looked but can't find much although I had assumed this was key functionality.
Sorry if this is a stupid question! |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
Gregg
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Its an add-on so it is only in the "n--packs" The source is on the Waterloo tape. It may need tweaking as it was originally written on sepp/bsepp. Dave -----Original Message----- |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
Hello!
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
It does? Then why did I get this from a DIAL CPWATCH command string on the original one, DIAL CPWATCH DMKDIA045E CPWATCH NOT LOGGED ON IND from the console not the 3270 shows what it is doing, CPWATCH from the same place does not. Does this mean it's a missing entry on the original Bob kit? This will perfectly be obvious to everyone except the individual reading this out loud to a crowd of Yeti. (Including one who smokes a brand of smoking tobacco that's older than most of us.) ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@... "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:00 AM Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm@...> wrote:
|
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
On 1/30/20 2:33 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote:
MUSIC was not running V=R on the Amdahl. I think the 12MB may have been aClarkson went the other direction, we started with the student users on MUSIC 4.0 in 1980.? When I returned in 1985, they had all but shutdown MUSIC and moved everyone to CMS.? Then, after I left for good, they moved the students over to a Gould running UNIX. (They DID give me a degree, 10 years after I started.) In the Clarkson MUSIC era, I had ~ 4th most used program on VS/1. It moved data from VS/1 to MUSIC.? Had I gotten royalties, I could had graduated Clarkson dept free.? :-) Pity you don't have the old MUSIC tapes, I'm looking for 5.x to put the 4361. |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
Le?jeu. 30 janv. 2020 à?18:44, Bob Polmanter <wably@...> a écrit?: The bane of my existence was a statistical product called SAS, which for us ran under CMS.? The mathematicians and programming staff at my site loved it, but it was nothing but a headache for me.? The thing was a pig, a pile of bloated compiled code and it sent our paging rate skyrocketing.? After a few years the SAS people did get a large portion of their product into shared segments and that helped tremendously.? But it was a CPU hog even still. Hmm, I didn't know SAS was such a pain for system programmers. I belong to the mathematicians that loved it (on MVS though) and I still use it today (on a PC).? All the best, Rene FERLAND, Montreal |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
开云体育Bob, ? You have just given me nightmares!? Did you have the SAS “C” compiler as well! Mind you we had Oracle as well but thankfully no MVS… .. but it could be worse VM was great compared to VAX/VMS on an X25 network. Those paged like mad. User types a character, page in the users DCL shell, shell decides its an “A” and needs to echo it. Queues an IO to echo it, gets paged out…. ? One of my mates worked at a bank. He really preferred All-in-one to PROFS but said there was no way he could afford enough VAX hardware to roll it out to the folks he wanted to have it… Happy Days… simpler times…. ? Dave ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bob Polmanter
Sent: 30 January 2020 23:44 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [h390-vm] VM/370 Hercules Optimisation ? >I said “can fall of”! Of course in our situation , running 360 and 370 operating systems with typically a trivial workload on >hardware that out performs anything that the original software ever ran on by a factor of around 10 its unlikely that we will >experience the sort of problems small sites experienced on 4330, 4340 and 4360 mid-range boxes. |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
>I said “can fall of”! Of course in our situation , running 360 and 370 operating systems with typically a trivial workload on >hardware that out performs anything that the original software ever ran on by a factor of around 10 its unlikely that we will >experience the sort of problems small sites experienced on 4330, 4340 and 4360 mid-range boxes.
Dave, I understand. System performance became something of a career thing for me back in the day.? We did run MVS as a guest under VM/SP HPO in a production environment on a 16MB 4381, and as the system programmer I had to make it work and make it run well, or else.? We ran MVS in an 8 MB V=R space, using PMA? (Preferred Machine Assist, remember that?).? The CMS users got the other 8 MB.? We had a couple of hundred CMS users in the directory but most of the time we would have 40-60 logged on at most, and probably a lot of them were idle.? MVS always had a large batch load active, but hardly any TSO activity fortunately (for the system). The bane of my existence was a statistical product called SAS, which for us ran under CMS.? The mathematicians and programming staff at my site loved it, but it was nothing but a headache for me.? The thing was a pig, a pile of bloated compiled code and it sent our paging rate skyrocketing.? After a few years the SAS people did get a large portion of their product into shared segments and that helped tremendously.? But it was a CPU hog even still. Later still, we eventually got 32MB on the 4381 and that helped a lot.?? All good stuff. Regards, Bob |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
开云体育Bob, ? I said “can fall of”! Of course in our situation , running 360 and 370 operating systems with typically a trivial workload on hardware that out performs anything that the original software ever ran on by a factor of around 10 its unlikely that we will experience the sort of problems small sites experienced on 4330, 4340 and 4360 mid-range boxes. ? I well remember the issues IBM had on their PROFS experience days. These involved a classroom of business folks role playing to experience how PROFS could help. When the days first started, they got everyone to log on at the same time. The poor little 4361 (I think it was a 61) was not happy with this and sulked. “IND LOAD” showed horrific expansion factors. The eventual “fix” was to get the users to describe their role, and then logon, in turn. This spread the load out and 4361 was then a happy little bunny. ? So even with 20 or so the little box struggled when the all logged on at once… ? … but spread the load out and it was fine…. ? Dave ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bob Polmanter
Sent: 30 January 2020 20:58 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [h390-vm] VM/370 Hercules Optimisation ?
|
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
Our Amdahl didn't have any assists unfortunately (and we used to get a whole lot of grief with mail coming in over the EARN link from Rutherford with reversed domain addresses...) It could move EARN/MAIL/LISTSERV traffic without missing a beat, plus a wholeThis was on an Amdahl 5870 (AP) with 64MB of real storage, VM/HPO and aThat is rather a different beast to a 4341 which typically had 4MB of bunch of people reading and writing mail in CMS (which was really XEDIT under the covers) and a few running Waterloo Script but it started to feel it when there was a classful of students doing VSFORTRAN compiles or submitting SAS jobs. The AP was added when it was decided to move the MUSIC users (142 terminals minus whatever number weren't working on any particular day) onto it. The MUSIC users were mostly using VSFORTRAN too after migrating from the less resource hungry WATFIV. Unfortunately, I never saw any tools in HPO for looking at what memory above 16MB was doing. We used to have something called Explore/VM which probably could but the license for that was cancelled just before I got to play with it :-( The previous sysprog had been unable to get CPWATCH to work on HPO and had abandoned it. MUSIC was not running V=R on the Amdahl. I think the 12MB may have been a legacy from when it previously ran V=R on a 4381 before it was moved to the Amdahl. I do recall a moan about something along the lines of I/O only being possible from the lower 16MB so if MUSIC had 16MB, it would likely be all paged in most of the time due to the large number of users on MUSIC so what would that leave the CMS users to do I/O from. Maybe he was afraid of having MUSIC performing too well in case all his CMS users got moved on to it! Should be worth a go. It really scoots along on Hercules even on an old Alpha so it should be quite happy on a P390. Regards, Peter Coghlan |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
开云体育On 1/30/20 1:47 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
The S/158 processor could run as a channel or CP as well.? In fact, the 3033 used 158 engines running in pure channel mode under the covers.? |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
> To be honest while I think for CMS, VM is the “bees knees”, when you try to run MVS in a VM the wheels can fall off the car > because of the need to maintain shadow page tables. I run MVS as a guest of VM.? In fact that is the only way I run it.? It runs great, and I am not sure why there is so much misinformation about the 'negative aspects' of running this way.? To be sure, if I had 30 other CMS users online on the same system competing with MVS and a few batch jobs and some TSO users, then there would definitely be some serious issues.? But we're all basically single users on our systems.? We have no one else to compete with and even if there were one or two others it would be negligible. For me at least, the advantages of having CMS and TSO side by side are worth some reduction in MVS throughput.? Ok, so my 2000 line batch assembly takes 8 seconds instead of 6.? I can wait.? I can submit jobs from CMS to MVS; they come in through MVS's card reader, and I can get my job output spooled back to my CMS virtual reader when the job is completed.? Or I can use TSO all the way for the same process. I do run MVS in a 8 MB virtual machine.? I have CP generated for an 8 MB V=R area.? This allows me to run STBYPASS (Shadow Table Bypass) and avoid that overhead.? This support is present in Sixpack 1.3 (I know, I installed it there for you, Dave).? And as a V=R guest, CCW translation can be turned off for MVS, thereby saving another good bit of overhead.? Many of the new ECPS:VM assists that I introduced in 2017 and 2018 (in Hyperion and SDL Hyperion only) were geared to specifically assist guests like MVS.? ECPS:VM now works with STBYPASS and it now assists several expensive instructions like LRA, STOSM, and more, that MVS issues in abundance.? And even if you can't run STBYPASS (because you don't have Sixpack 1.3 or are running MVS V=V), the newer ECPS:VM support also assists shadow and page table validations. Let's don't complain about it!? Let's get out there and try it.? I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Regards, Bob |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----was possible to support over a hundred users on MUSIC running on VM doingworking at the same time, the MUSIC users really suffered, despite all sorts ofI am pretty sure Rutherford Appleton Labs got over 100 users on their Fujitsu box under HPO but they did tweak the microcode and some of the assists. I think we ran about 60 on a 4381 model 3 under HPO and performance was fine. There were all sorts of dire warnings in the MUSIC administrator guide tonot allow VM to page MUSIC, but in practice we found the effects were notquite as bad as the warnings suggested they would be, at least when the CMSI think their experience might be with smaller hardware than that described below. This was on an Amdahl 5870 (AP) with 64MB of real storage, VM/HPO and aThat is rather a different beast to a 4341 which typically had 4MB of memory. With HPO's "improved" scheduler and the availability of all that store that box would be pretty slick. Note:- you needed HPO to support more that 16Mb of memory. It's a bit of a fudge because programs can only see 16Mb but there are spare bits in the page table which allows the pages to be mapped to store above the 16Mb line. VM/370 has no concept of this. I suppose it might be possible to add it, but given we don't get lots of VMs running it doesn't help much. I don't see why he would not give MUSIC 16Mb provided its only virtual not real. If it was V=R it is no wonder CMS performed badly. CP needs a chunk of real for the VMBLOCKS for VMS.... Regards,Whilst a lot does not apply to VM/370 a copy of Jeff Savit's "VM and CMS : Performance and Fine Tuning" 503&cm_sp=mbc-_-ISBN-_-used makes interesting reading. Perhaps I should try Music on the P390. Dave G4UGM |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
My experience was that MUSIC performed really well under VM provided it had enough memory and even better still if it was locked in storage. It was possible to support over a hundred users on MUSIC running on VM doing edit/compile/run cycles with the same sort of machine resources that would be crawling when a quarter of that number of CMS users were doing similar work. If it was attempted to have both of these categories of users working at the same time, the MUSIC users really suffered, despite all sorts of attempts to give preferential treatment to the VM userid running MUSIC. There were all sorts of dire warnings in the MUSIC administrator guide to not allow VM to page MUSIC, but in practice we found the effects were not quite as bad as the warnings suggested they would be, at least when the CMS users weren't beating on it. This was on an Amdahl 5870 (AP) with 64MB of real storage, VM/HPO and a virtual storage size of 12MB for MUSIC (because the VM sysprog wasn't willing to risk giving it 16MB). Regards, Peter Coghlan. |
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
开云体育Steven, ? I think it was Joe who mentioned the assists. To be honest while I think for CMS, VM is the “bees knees”, when you try to run MVS in a VM the wheels can fall off the car because of the need to maintain shadow page tables. So in VM/370 all guests run real problem state and even when running V=R they don’t have access to real page zero. All interrupts get passed to CP not the Guest. CP then has to either simulate them or reflect them to the OS. For an OS like CMS which runs DAT off this isn’t a huge problem. When running multiple users who “IPL CMS” things are improved because each user does share most of the CMS nucleus as a “Discontigous Saved Segment”, a piece of read only memory that usually sits at the top of memory and so tends to stay in real store. Again this usually isn’t relevant for Hercules because we typically only have one user but the CMS in all the releases available for download are built like that. ? On the other hand MVS wants to do its own paging, so every time MVS changes the page tables, an interrupt is generated and VM has to update its shadow page tables. There are several ways to reduce this overhead. If you are only running one copy of MVS you can dedicate some low store to it, and so run it as V=R. ?but if you have multiple machines obviously only one can be v=r. The assists are really useful here. Some releases of “OS” also have handshake features that allows the OS to pass information to CP and reduce the overhead. ? Someone mentioned poor performance with MUSIC, well I suspect what killed MUSIC under VM was the paging overhead… ? … on the other hand some releases of DOS reputedly ran better under VM because the OS paging could be disabled, and the CP paging was much better… ? For those interested GC20-1821 has more info… ? ? but the some of the facilities described in there are SEPP or BSEPP which we don’t have/// ? Dave ? ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steven Fosdick
Sent: 30 January 2020 16:47 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [h390-vm] VM/370 Hercules Optimisation ? On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 at 15:57, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm@...> wrote:
? Was Adrian thinking that a page fault* would be the cause of the I/O?? Presumably if one accesses an address from within CMS that is not, at that moment, mapped to real memory it is CP, not CMS, that handles the page fault? ? * is there an IBM name for this as there seems to be for most other things.?
|
|
Re: VM/370 Hercules Optimisation
On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 04:46 PM, Steven Fosdick wrote:
Was Adrian thinkingProbably overthinking! It sounds like at best we are talking about marginal differences. Anyway I have my Dockerfile working so I will try some speed tests with different configs over the weekend. Thanks for all the advice :-) |
René Ferland