Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
On 19 Apr 2024, at 13:28, M Verpelli via groups.io <mverpelli@...> wrote:
Have you tried deleting a line in the editor ?
I am able to revise lines into something harmless, but deleting lines does not seem to stick.
Just for fun have you tried dividing by zero 1¡Â0??
I did now:
? ? ? 1 0 CHARACTER ERROR ? ? ? ? ? ? 1
when compared to gnu apl, it is not that different:
? ? ? 1¡Â0 DOMAIN ERROR ? ? ? 1¡Â0 ? ? ? ^^
best,
¸é±ð²Ô¨¦
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
Rene, Why not just upload the picture to the groups photos section? ? /g/h390-vm/photos ? then you can add a link in your message, and all stays together. ? Dave ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of rvjansen@... via groups.io
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2024 12:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function? oh dear, curse this modern technology! and just let me append something to a forum again ... (we'll have to get this bitnet thing connected again) Of course, the web interface shows me *my* paste and they know about eachothers formats. When looked at from a different browser, which I suspectingly did, there was no picture. Not being known for easily giving up, I put it here for your admiration if interested:? I'll send some APL in text in a next message (but enough work for today already) to see how that comes out over different media.
? Two things warrant me replying to myself: 1) The mail interface did not accept the attachment, but the web interface for this group did; you can look at the screenshot at?/g/h390-vm/message/5674?to see the glory of the 3270 font with the (for me) correct color and a working APL\360 system to boot; 2) Pasting from my notes from several years ago introduced an error in the dyalog keyboard url; it should be??. ?
? Let me quickly document my setup on macOS and ARM64. I can assure you that the end product works. My main working machines are a macbook pro m2 and a mac mini m1 with a good screen for home use. The mini has a Unicomp APL Model M usb keyboard. Both machines run Sonoma 14.4.1
?
?
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
Have you tried deleting a line in the editor ?
Just for fun have you tried dividing by zero 1¡Â0??
?
Marco
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
oh dear, curse this modern technology! and just let me append something to a forum again ... (we'll have to get this bitnet thing connected again)
Of course, the web interface shows me *my* paste and they know about eachothers formats. When looked at from a different browser, which I suspectingly did, there was no picture.
Not being known for easily giving up, I put it here for your admiration if interested:?
I'll send some APL in text in a next message (but enough work for today already) to see how that comes out over different media.
best regards,
¸é±ð²Ô¨¦.
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On 19 Apr 2024, at 12:58, rvjansen@... wrote:
Two things warrant me replying to myself:
1) The mail interface did not accept the attachment, but the web interface for this group did; you can look at the screenshot at? /g/h390-vm/message/5674?to see the glory of the 3270 font with the (for me) correct color and a working APL\360 system to boot;
2) Pasting from my notes from several years ago introduced an error in the dyalog keyboard url; it should be??.
best,
¸é±ð²Ô¨¦. On 19 Apr 2024, at 12:45, rvjansen@... wrote:
Let me quickly document my setup on macOS and ARM64. I can assure you that the end product works. My main working machines are a macbook pro m2 and a mac mini m1 with a good screen for home use. The mini has a Unicomp APL Model M usb keyboard. Both machines run Sonoma 14.4.1
?
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
Two things warrant me replying to myself:
1) The mail interface did not accept the attachment, but the web interface for this group did; you can look at the screenshot at? /g/h390-vm/message/5674?to see the glory of the 3270 font with the (for me) correct color and a working APL\360 system to boot;
2) Pasting from my notes from several years ago introduced an error in the dyalog keyboard url; it should be??.
best,
¸é±ð²Ô¨¦.
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Show quoted text
On 19 Apr 2024, at 12:45, rvjansen@... wrote:
Let me quickly document my setup on macOS and ARM64. I can assure you that the end product works. My main working machines are a macbook pro m2 and a mac mini m1 with a good screen for home use. The mini has a Unicomp APL Model M usb keyboard. Both machines run Sonoma 14.4.1
?
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
Let me quickly document my setup on macOS and ARM64. I can assure you that the end product works. My main working machines are a macbook pro m2 and a mac mini m1 with a good screen for home use. The mini has a Unicomp APL Model M usb keyboard. Both machines run Sonoma 14.4.1
?
I have built Hercules with hercules-helper () some time ago; but this week I installed it on a colleague's mac at work with just 'brew install hercules' because we did not have a lot of time. This also works although you might not get the most current version.
?
For 3270 emulators I mostly use ZOC and c3270. The latter for APL, because I could not yet get ZOC to work with APL. Because of muscle memory, I need the [Send] (ENter) key mapped to the right CTRL on the Model M (PC) keyboard and the right command key on the laptop. The enter/return key needs to be newline. This is done with a combination of remapping the keyboard and modifying the emulators. The keyboards are remapped with Karabine 14.13.0 (), using grave_accent_and_tilde and non_us-backslash. My [send] and [clear] keys are reversed on the laptop because on the Model M send needs to be right-ctrl but on the laptop it needs to be right-command because that is a bigger key. If you are one of those youthful people that don't need to remap because you are using [enter] for [send], you can skip this step.
?
We now need to make the keyboard produce APL glyphs.?Reading the Dyalog website I found the missing link: the keyboard, when used on a Mac, needs a special set of keyboard layout icon files (downloadable from https:) that needs to be added to Library/Keyboard Layouts - then, in the settings dialog, these can be chosen as a locale. When this is active, the keyboard can be used with full APL functionality in all applications, with all Unicode fonts that contain APL characters. IBM Plex Mono, for example, has excellent support. The APL characters are then accessible in combination with the option key, and from the Unicom APL keyboard in combination with the left Windows key. This is a useful step because it also enables gnu-apl and others.
?
The rest will focus on c3270 and not on ZOC. I use c3270 because this also works over ssh and other non-graphical connections in local sessions over tmux. When connection to remote machines I always do that in tmux sessions because when something happens to the connection, you can always tmux attach into your running sessions when the connection is back up. For MVS consoles this is important and for VM very useful, although VM's session recoverability always was a lot better. c3270 has more faithful font reproduction than x3270, the latter struggled with high resolution screens for a long time.?
?
For c3270 you can have startup parameters in a file called ~/.c3270pro
Its contents on my machine is
?
! .c3270 settings file for macOS and IBM Model m (USB,PS/2) keyboards, iTerm2
! and also usable on MacBook Pro keyboard
! this file needs to go in the user's home directory
?
! Make sure the reported terminal in iTerm2 is set to xterm
! character encoding is Unicode(UTF-8)
! Use Karabiner-Elements to map
! ? ?right_alt ? ? -> keypad_hyphen
! ? ?right_control -> grave_accent_and_tilde
?
?
! we want the 3270 enter and newline configuration like it was intended
c3270.keymap.3270: \
<Key>U+007F: Erase\n\
<Key>Return: NewLine \n\
<Key>BackSpace: BackSpace \n\
<Key>`: Enter() \n\
<Key>END: EraseEOF() \n\
<Key>¡ì: Clear()
?
! Note: mac keyboard:
! Erase EOF is fn-cursor_right
?
! assign the 3270 standard scroll functions to kb PageUp and PageDown
c3270.keymap.scroll: \
<Key>PPAGE: PF(7)\n\
<Key>NPAGE: PF(8)
?
! use the keymaps defined above
c3270.keymap: 3270,scroll
?
I use a lot of terminal apps on the mac - kitty and iTerm2 are used for normal work - but for 3270 work I run Alacritty () with Richard Banffy's 3270 ()?font. This is a great working font for mainframe work that reminds me of yesteryears; I am not sure it contains APL glyphs but the macOS substitution mechanism will care of that if not - I did not go into that fully yet.
?
We then start c3270
?
c3270 localhost:3270 -model 3279-5
?
When your hercules runs on localhost, that is, otherwise any dns name or ip address will go into that place.?
?
Logging on to VM/370CE, issue the
?
TERM APL ON
?
and switch the mac keyboard to the dyalog defined one. Now on an APL keyboard you have the symbols available, but on the laptop you do not, but you can go to the keyboard menu, and choose "Show keyboard viewer" ; you can float this over other windows. Pressing the option key (the left one, that was not remapped) displays the actual keys of the APL symbols.
?
Program entry and editing works as Mike Beer indicated. Not sure if this list accepts attachments, but this screen shot shows editing a program on 3270 using APL\360.
?
?
Where the program 'program' first displays a range from 1 to 99 but then is edited to assign 'foo bar baz' to a and then display it.
?
So don't give up, it all works great and it is a very rewarding experience.
?
best regards,
?
¸é±ð²Ô¨¦.
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
Thanks, Bob.
I understand that.? I just wonder whether the end product if I went through the installation text would be workable.? If so, I will go ahead ...
Well, just like climbing a (mental) mountain, it is not the peak you enjoy but the process.? But if the mountain does not exist, ... In any case I have tried intel, arm, macos, windows all but so far non-work.? Hence this is my last but two final attempt.? Would boot up my windows 10 and OSX see whether it is w11 and sonama is the issue first.? But ...
Best regards.?
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
From my point of view I do what I do with Dyalog APL, SWI-Prolog and Racket: nothing!
If a person is interested in programming languages I think it is inevitable to try even the most "ancient" ones.
Marco
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
Just curious: what uses do folks have for APL nowadays?
Is this nostalgia?
Have tools like Matlab made it obsolete?
For example: I write MVS PL/I programs for nostalgic fun, but I'm not solving real problems with it.
Jon T.
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
kwccoin, I am sorry that I don't have time to help you with APL for VM. Even building the system requires a deep familiarity with VM. Bob Bolch
Apology to interupt.
I have a hard time to try to run APL360_MVT up to the points only windows and small current version give you 2 terminals (other version and macos does not work even to this stage), which I cannot do <enter> (but can enter some APL expression!). I have to give up as not sure what is going on.
A bit surprise to see this thread.? I immediately dig around a bit and may I ask is it ok to start with this:?/g/h390-vm/files/APL360?or is it still a bit rough (and need Bob keyboard :-)).
Apology once again for interruption.
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
Apology to interupt. I have a hard time to try to run APL360_MVT up to the points only windows and small current version give you 2 terminals (other version and macos does not work even to this stage), which I cannot do <enter> (but can enter some APL expression!). I have to give up as not sure what is going on. A bit surprise to see this thread.? I immediately dig around a bit and may I ask is it ok to start with this:? /g/h390-vm/files/APL360?or is it still a bit rough (and need Bob keyboard :-)). Apology once again for interruption.
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 16:38 Tony Harminc < tharminc@...> wrote: On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 at 09:12, Bob Bolch < Bob@...> wrote: Hi Tony, I? wrote entirely new code in the APL supervisor to support 3270s. I replaced the old supervisor code to run 1 APL?user in 1 CMS Virtual Machine.
I'm very impressed - that can't have been trivial.
Bob has forgotten more about CP and CMS than most folks ever knew ?:-)
Ross
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Re: How Big/Long is a CMS Module
XRUNPARM was a quick hack some years ago when I discovered that I
needed the blanks to be inserted between
8 byte words so that my parameter strings can be processed
successfully in the CMS environment
Maybe this is different if the CMS parameter tokens contain
parantheses ( or ) ...
maybe in this case the blanks around the parantheses are not
needed or will not work
for the receiving OS style program.
If you want I could try to build a XRUNPARM variant which inserts
blanks only between ALPHABETIC 8 byte tokens
(and not, if there are parantheses).
Maybe this variant will work for both of us.
Please send me a short answer if I should invest some of my spare
time on this small project.
Thanks, kind regards
Bernd
Am 15.04.2024 um 02:49 schrieb Mark A.
Stevens via groups.io:
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On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 06:03 PM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
XRUNPARM builds an OS style parameter list (one
string) from the tokenized CMS parameter array
(consisting of 8 byte parameter values). If you don't insert
blanks between the individual parameters
which can have up to 8 bytes in length, you will run into
problems if one of the parameters uses the full 8 bytes.
Then there is no blank between this parameter and the next, and
your OS style parameter list will not have
the parameters properly separated. That's why I had to change
RUNPARM.
I continue beating my head against a wall. At one point trying
XRUNPARM. What I discovered was it would take 'XREF(FULL)' and
turn it into 'XREF ( FULL )' which isn't valid for Assembler.
I'm not complaining, just giving a heads up to anyone else looking
to use XRUNPARM for something.
?... Mark S.
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Re: How Big/Long is a CMS Module
On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 06:03 PM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
XRUNPARM builds an OS style parameter list (one string) from the tokenized CMS parameter array
(consisting of 8 byte parameter values). If you don't insert blanks between the individual parameters
which can have up to 8 bytes in length, you will run into problems if one of the parameters uses the full 8 bytes.
Then there is no blank between this parameter and the next, and your OS style parameter list will not have
the parameters properly separated. That's why I had to change RUNPARM.
I continue beating my head against a wall. At one point trying XRUNPARM. What I discovered was it would take 'XREF(FULL)' and turn it into 'XREF ( FULL )' which isn't valid for Assembler. I'm not complaining, just giving a heads up to anyone else looking to use XRUNPARM for something. ?... Mark S.
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I included the MAIL server code so people with the RSCS NJE mods could experiment with it. The authors donated the code to h390-vm. Please contact them for help. Bob Bolch
On Sun, Apr 14, 2024, 11:58?AM Tom Chandler via <tchandler48= [email protected]> wrote: I am trying to install (I think I have) on VM370CE_1_1_2.?
When I try to execute it I get
MAIL
??? 355 *-*????????? "
Error 15 running MAIL, line 355:? Invalid hexadecimal or binary string
and it stops.
The documentation indicate it was installed under VM370CE_1_1_1.?
Is there a difference in the two.? Would really like to get it going under 1_1_2
Thank You
Tom c
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I am trying to install (I think I have) on VM370CE_1_1_2.?
When I try to execute it I get
MAIL
??? 355 *-*????????? "
Error 15 running MAIL, line 355:? Invalid hexadecimal or binary string
and it stops.
The documentation indicate it was installed under VM370CE_1_1_1.?
Is there a difference in the two.? Would really like to get it going under 1_1_2
Thank You
Tom c
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
Hi Tony, ? Jeurgen's work definitely inspired this CMS work. Also, VSAPL for CMS was a model.? ? My implementation did not get used very much. There is a lack of? consistent keyboard support. The APL keyboard I used isn't sold anymore.
On Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 4:38?PM Tony Harminc < tharminc@...> wrote: On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 at 09:12, Bob Bolch < Bob@...> wrote: Hi Tony, I? wrote entirely new code in the APL supervisor to support 3270s. I replaced the old supervisor code to run 1 APL?user in 1 CMS Virtual Machine.
I'm very impressed - that can't have been trivial. It wasn't clear to me if you'd repurposed the "standalone" supervisor to run in a VM (and that's why I asked what gets IPL'd in the VM). But your approach sounds like the best one to get a single-user APL under CMS.
?
All that new code is included in the download from this site,along with build instructions. I complied with the license agreement so you have to download the old IBM code from the Computer museum, and then build a MODULE using the provided instructions.
Ya, that makes sense. IIRC that's what Juergen's APL for MVT (or MVT for APL...) does too.
Well one of these centuries I hope to get the goo out of my old 2741 and get it talking to Hercules and hopefully APL. I do have an APL typeball.
Tony H.
On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 8:38?PM Tony Harminc < tharminc@...> wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 at 18:07, Bob Bolch < Bob@...> wrote: The code I started with is available here:
That code ran in a special environment in OS/360. The runtime environment from OS/360 was not included.
You have to agree not to redistribute the source, to get a copy.
I've seen the code (both 50 years ago on fiche and more recently), but I didn't agree to? anything.
I built a runtime environment on VM/370 to use that code. I made it work on a VM370 3270 with the APL support available for that device.?
So you wrote entirely new code in the APL supervisor to support 3270s? Wow - I missed that somehow. And also to allow the supervisor to run in a VM? Or did you write en entirely new Supervisor to host the Interpreter??
What gets IPL'd in the VM? APL\360 came with three options: OS/360, DOS. and "standalone". But the standalone version was just the DOS one except that after initialization it overlaid the DOS supervisor with I/O buffers.
That you were able to do either says a lot about the original APL implementors and their rigid distinction between the APL Interpreter and Supervisor at a time when such modularity and layering was little known.
?
I don't remember any linemode 2741 support being available in VM/370. If you know where it is, please show me.
Mark has beaten me to it (DMKCNS), but other than the channel-attached 1052/3215 console, line-mode on 2741/1050/etc via async 270x-style lines was the only kind of VM/370 terminal device to start with. Supporting such devices in a VM might require Diagnose help with the dynamic channel programs used by APL. I remember writing that to allow MVT TCAM to work in a VM.
The Adesse VM course manual, although aimed at VM/SP, still has a great deal of useful info on how VM/370 works.
I took that course in person in 1985, and much later tried to track down the copyright owner with no success. I very much doubt anyone will be going after bitsavers (or me!) over it.
Tony H.
_
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Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 at 09:12, Bob Bolch < Bob@...> wrote: Hi Tony, I? wrote entirely new code in the APL supervisor to support 3270s. I replaced the old supervisor code to run 1 APL?user in 1 CMS Virtual Machine.
I'm very impressed - that can't have been trivial. It wasn't clear to me if you'd repurposed the "standalone" supervisor to run in a VM (and that's why I asked what gets IPL'd in the VM). But your approach sounds like the best one to get a single-user APL under CMS.
?
All that new code is included in the download from this site,along with build instructions. I complied with the license agreement so you have to download the old IBM code from the Computer museum, and then build a MODULE using the provided instructions.
Ya, that makes sense. IIRC that's what Juergen's APL for MVT (or MVT for APL...) does too.
Well one of these centuries I hope to get the goo out of my old 2741 and get it talking to Hercules and hopefully APL. I do have an APL typeball.
Tony H.
On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 8:38?PM Tony Harminc < tharminc@...> wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 at 18:07, Bob Bolch < Bob@...> wrote: The code I started with is available here:
That code ran in a special environment in OS/360. The runtime environment from OS/360 was not included.
You have to agree not to redistribute the source, to get a copy.
I've seen the code (both 50 years ago on fiche and more recently), but I didn't agree to? anything.
I built a runtime environment on VM/370 to use that code. I made it work on a VM370 3270 with the APL support available for that device.?
So you wrote entirely new code in the APL supervisor to support 3270s? Wow - I missed that somehow. And also to allow the supervisor to run in a VM? Or did you write en entirely new Supervisor to host the Interpreter??
What gets IPL'd in the VM? APL\360 came with three options: OS/360, DOS. and "standalone". But the standalone version was just the DOS one except that after initialization it overlaid the DOS supervisor with I/O buffers.
That you were able to do either says a lot about the original APL implementors and their rigid distinction between the APL Interpreter and Supervisor at a time when such modularity and layering was little known.
?
I don't remember any linemode 2741 support being available in VM/370. If you know where it is, please show me.
Mark has beaten me to it (DMKCNS), but other than the channel-attached 1052/3215 console, line-mode on 2741/1050/etc via async 270x-style lines was the only kind of VM/370 terminal device to start with. Supporting such devices in a VM might require Diagnose help with the dynamic channel programs used by APL. I remember writing that to allow MVT TCAM to work in a VM.
The Adesse VM course manual, although aimed at VM/SP, still has a great deal of useful info on how VM/370 works.
I took that course in person in 1985, and much later tried to track down the copyright owner with no success. I very much doubt anyone will be going after bitsavers (or me!) over it.
Tony H.
_
|
Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
Hi Tony, I? wrote entirely new code in the APL supervisor to support 3270s. I replaced the old supervisor code to run 1 APL?user in 1 CMS Virtual Machine. All that new code is included in the download from this site, along with build instructions. I complied with the license agreement so you have to download the old IBM code from the Computer museum, and then build a MODULE using the provided instructions.
On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 8:38?PM Tony Harminc < tharminc@...> wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 at 18:07, Bob Bolch < Bob@...> wrote: The code I started with is available here:
That code ran in a special environment in OS/360. The runtime environment from OS/360 was not included.
You have to agree not to redistribute the source, to get a copy.
I've seen the code (both 50 years ago on fiche and more recently), but I didn't agree to? anything.
I built a runtime environment on VM/370 to use that code. I made it work on a VM370 3270 with the APL support available for that device.?
So you wrote entirely new code in the APL supervisor to support 3270s? Wow - I missed that somehow. And also to allow the supervisor to run in a VM? Or did you write en entirely new Supervisor to host the Interpreter??
What gets IPL'd in the VM? APL\360 came with three options: OS/360, DOS. and "standalone". But the standalone version was just the DOS one except that after initialization it overlaid the DOS supervisor with I/O buffers.
That you were able to do either says a lot about the original APL implementors and their rigid distinction between the APL Interpreter and Supervisor at a time when such modularity and layering was little known.
?
I don't remember any linemode 2741 support being available in VM/370. If you know where it is, please show me.
Mark has beaten me to it (DMKCNS), but other than the channel-attached 1052/3215 console, line-mode on 2741/1050/etc via async 270x-style lines was the only kind of VM/370 terminal device to start with. Supporting such devices in a VM might require Diagnose help with the dynamic channel programs used by APL. I remember writing that to allow MVT TCAM to work in a VM.
The Adesse VM course manual, although aimed at VM/SP, still has a great deal of useful info on how VM/370 works.
I took that course in person in 1985, and much later tried to track down the copyright owner with no success. I very much doubt anyone will be going after bitsavers (or me!) over it.
Tony H.
|
Re: VM/370 CE - Editing an APL function
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 at 18:07, Bob Bolch < Bob@...> wrote: The code I started with is available here:
That code ran in a special environment in OS/360. The runtime environment from OS/360 was not included.
You have to agree not to redistribute the source, to get a copy.
I've seen the code (both 50 years ago on fiche and more recently), but I didn't agree to? anything.
I built a runtime environment on VM/370 to use that code. I made it work on a VM370 3270 with the APL support available for that device.?
So you wrote entirely new code in the APL supervisor to support 3270s? Wow - I missed that somehow. And also to allow the supervisor to run in a VM? Or did you write en entirely new Supervisor to host the Interpreter??
What gets IPL'd in the VM? APL\360 came with three options: OS/360, DOS. and "standalone". But the standalone version was just the DOS one except that after initialization it overlaid the DOS supervisor with I/O buffers.
That you were able to do either says a lot about the original APL implementors and their rigid distinction between the APL Interpreter and Supervisor at a time when such modularity and layering was little known.
?
I don't remember any linemode 2741 support being available in VM/370. If you know where it is, please show me.
Mark has beaten me to it (DMKCNS), but other than the channel-attached 1052/3215 console, line-mode on 2741/1050/etc via async 270x-style lines was the only kind of VM/370 terminal device to start with. Supporting such devices in a VM might require Diagnose help with the dynamic channel programs used by APL. I remember writing that to allow MVT TCAM to work in a VM.
The Adesse VM course manual, although aimed at VM/SP, still has a great deal of useful info on how VM/370 works.
I took that course in person in 1985, and much later tried to track down the copyright owner with no success. I very much doubt anyone will be going after bitsavers (or me!) over it.
Tony H.
|
M Verpelli
Mark A. Stevens