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Batteries


 

On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 08:50 AM, wn4isx wrote:
B Battery, for the plate. Typically 22.5 or 40V
My vague recollection was around 45 V.? But you might have two in series, for 90 V.? I am not sure but I think that was what our AC/DC radio had.
?
Or maybe if you used 22.5 batteries, then two made 45 and four got you to 90 V.
?
The Wikipedia page suggests that the old B-size battery was 45 V.
?
In the good old days, 1960~1970, US lantern batteries consisted of 4 "F" cells. A "F" cell was the same diameter as a "D" but longer.
All the lanterns I saw in that time period had the big 6 V battery with square cross-section and rounded corners, significant height (maybe 1.5 times as tall as they were across), and springs on the top for contacts.? As of a few years ago, you could still purchase them.
?
Andy
?


 

I built an arc light using the carbon rods ground down to points. ...
My grandfather told us of his experience making a carbon arc lamp.? Probably around the turn of the last century.
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The street lights in town were carbon-arcs.? Periodically they replaced the old carbons and discarded the spent ones in the street.? My grandfather grabbed a couple and brought them home.? Upstairs in the attic, he carefully wired them to the mains power, on the input side of the fuse box because he knew it might blow a fuse.? Then, using cloth for protection, he got the spark going and watched as it made a darned good, really bright lamp.? (No ballast.)? It worked great for about 15 seconds, then stopped.? Power was out for the rest of the night.
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The next day, the utility company couldn't figure out why their power distribution transformer had blown completely off the utility pole.
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Somehow my grandfather didn't get into trouble.
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I never went that far.? But I did manage to get some nasty sparks in the bedroom at age 2 or 3, and lived to talk about it.
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Andy
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On Friday 28 February 2025 04:23:46 pm Roy J. Tellason, Sr. via groups.io wrote:
If anybody's interested, ?"The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments" is on my site at , ?lots of fun stuff in there.
Well, that sure got screwed up...

The correct URL is:



--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin


 

Thanks Roy for the book.
It is interesting to see the old descriptions.
Bertho

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Roy
J. Tellason, Sr. via groups.io
On Friday 28 February 2025 04:23:46 pm Roy J. Tellason, Sr. via groups.io
wrote:
If anybody's interested, ?"The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments" is on
my site.
The correct URL is:


 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

ANDY IT IS A VERY OLD COMPAGNY IN FRANCE

SEE HERE

FRANCOIS



Le 01/03/2025 2:07 am, Andy via groups.io a ¨¦crit?:

I never ever heard of "Lelanche" cells until yesterday.
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They weren't common, were they?

Andy
?


 

I vaguely remember studying Leclanche cells in physics lessons at school in the late 1950s.
Leon Heller
G1HSM


 

My father wore a hearing air starting in the late 30's. I recall him having a 45 volt and 1.5 volt battery that he would put in his right rear pocket. These powered the vacuum tubes in the aid. When he had pants hemmed, that leg was always cut 2" shorter to compensate for the weight of the batteries. He did have a charger I recall as a big black object with perforated metal encasing the whole thing. Because his hearing loss was 93 dB, it took until the 60's to transition to a transistor based aid.
Dan Kahn
On Friday, February 28, 2025 at 08:17:47 PM EST, Andy via groups.io <ai.egrps@...> wrote:


On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 08:50 AM, wn4isx wrote:
B Battery, for the plate. Typically 22.5 or 40V
My vague recollection was around 45 V.? But you might have two in series, for 90 V.? I am not sure but I think that was what our AC/DC radio had.
?
Or maybe if you used 22.5 batteries, then two made 45 and four got you to 90 V.
?
The Wikipedia page suggests that the old B-size battery was 45 V.
?
In the good old days, 1960~1970, US lantern batteries consisted of 4 "F" cells. A "F" cell was the same diameter as a "D" but longer.
All the lanterns I saw in that time period had the big 6 V battery with square cross-section and rounded corners, significant height (maybe 1.5 times as tall as they were across), and springs on the top for contacts.? As of a few years ago, you could still purchase them.
?
Andy
?


wn4isx
 

I must have made a typo I meant Leclanch¨¦ cell.
Up until alkaline cells replaced the Leclanch¨¦, the Leclanch¨¦ was the standard "D" "C" "AA" 9V.
?
Alkalines offer increased capacity (ma/Hours), lower internal resistance, longer shelf life, less likely to leak.
The "less likely to leak" has become a joke, all the major brands now leak long before their use by date.
I'm not sure what happened, I'd have thought materials science would have come up with better seals, but clearly that isn't the case. I now use primary lithiums (and pay through the nose) in equipment I care about.
Most people think "D" "C" "AA" 9V all leak acid, they leak an alkaline similar to lye, a lot weaker but it will still corrode the daylights out of electronics.
?
Oh you can still purchase Leclanch¨¦ cells /9V batteries at Krogers. I suspect most big stores will have them. They are a bit cheaper than alkaline. You'll have to look around the battery rack, at the local Krogers they are sort of hidden.?


wn4isx
 

On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 10:04 AM, Dan Kahn wrote:
All the lanterns I saw in that time period had the big 6 V battery with square cross-section and rounded corners, significant height (maybe 1.5 times as tall as they were across), and springs on the top for contacts.? As of a few years ago, you could still purchase them.
?
Andy
?
There were 4 "F" cells inside the lantern battery case. You can still buy them (at least as of 2023) but almost all had 4 "D" cells with a spacer at the bottom. I used the lantern batteries with screw terminals for all sorts of experiments as a kid. The only thing better was the big "ignition" cells used in school science classes. My dad bought me a dozen and they powered my early transistor experiments for 5 or 6 years, until my uncle built an adjustable regulated AC mains powered power supply for me.
?
?
?


 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Noone has mentioned the flat 4.5 V flashlight battery.? It was very common when I was growing up in Sweden.

The size was 65 x 60 x 23mm and fit nicely in a pocket.

See:

Often the lamp was at the end, not sideways.

?

The other flashlight I remember was hand-powered by squeezing a lever.? There was no battery, so it was a hand exerciser.

It fit nicely in the hand.? Not like the models sold with and external crank to turn.

?

Bertho


wn4isx
 

Nice! I've never met a flashlight I didn't fall in love with. I have some Soviet flashlights, varnished cardboard tubes and reflector and the glass has rough edges like it was snipped from window glass.
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A funny story about flashlights.

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Kentucky might be called "the land of caves." There are caves all over the place.

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Mammoth Cave, and private nearby caves, are famous.

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Floyd Collins was trapped in a cave and the coast to coast radio coverage mesmerized the nation. [he was an idiot, there was a back way out.]

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While I was born in Eastern Kentucky I lived in Central Kentucky from the tender age of 3 months on.

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When I was 6 the older boys talked me into exploring a cave under a mansion that was being torn down. We came to a large room with many tunnels going off in every direction.

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They brought me because I had 3 flashlights.

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In college a classmate was fascinated by the Underground Railroad and had diaries that mentioned how runaway slaves would use the caves in Central Kentucky as part of the underground railroad.

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According to her diaries, you could go from Versailles road (Kenland Race track) to Russell's cave underground.

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And nope never had the chance to go the full route, but I did go on parts and have no doubts in 1850 it was possible for a dedicated person to make it all the way.

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I've been in over a dozen private caves.

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[It's OK everyone knew I didn't have a lot of common sense anyway.]

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My wife is claustrophobic in a way that makes my acrophobia look like a mild dislike. I was shocked when she decided we were going to Carter Caves.

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She girded her loins and we went through all the guided cave tours. There is another cave that is self tour. You have to check in at the ranger station and they insist everyone in your party must have a flashlight.

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The lady was nice and said "We really like for people to have a spare flashlight."

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So I started pulling out flashlights and told her to say "when enough is enough."

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I had 20.

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My wife only had 6. [the slacker]

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The lady sort of freaked "We've never had anyone with that many flashlights!"

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I didn't have the heart to tell her I had spare bulbs and batteries. I might well die in a cave but it probably won't be in the dark.

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Don't get me wrong, I am not afraid of the dark, it's just I'm not a bat that works with echolocation, in my view of reality, God gave me eyes to use.

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I mentioned in another post how I'd swipe my Dad's WWII flashlight and hide in closets. I was less then clear. Yep I liked making light in the dark, but I could sit in the dark for hours and not worry in the least.

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I wish the same could be said for my poor mother. She eventually accepted "The doors are locked, the windows latched, he's in here someplace. I could curl up in places you'd swear no human child could possible fit.

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I also still have some luminescent plastic toy soldiers from back then that glow in the dark. I could sit there for hours and watch the light decay, then blast them with the flashlight and instant bright glow.?

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But one of my favorite all time memories was the look of utter disbelief as I started laying flashlights on the check out counter. The ranger was shocked speechless.

[I've often had that effect on people]

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Of course I have been caught without a flashlight a time or two when I needed one, really needed one.

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You change the fuel pump by feel in a 1968 VW bug at 3:00AM in the Red River Gorge Nature Preserve, on a moonless night, with nothing but starlight. Those 2 13mm nuts and hose clamps are soo much fun words fail me.

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[My wife is reading over my shoulder and just had a severe attack of the giggles. The wench.]

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Starlight is actually brighter then you might suppose .... after your eyes adjust. Not bright mind you, but you can sort of almost make out your hand.

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One time I changed the fuel pump with the light from an HP-35 sat to display all 8s for "maximum light." It was so much better then starlight.

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One might think I'd either have had flashlight or added an under the hood light. Nope, not that wise.

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I now carry 3 LED flashlights, spare batteries, have a LED light bar under the hood and in the trunk.

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Of course the chances of me being in Red River Gorge at 3:00AM are rather remote now that I'm 73 and the Gorge is filled with drunken druggies. I don't know enough people with enough firepower to make a 3:00AM pit stop safe.

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And changing the fuel pump in a modern car is no casual undertaking.

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Such is life.

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I made an "el cheapo" night vision device.

I picked up a new in the box Android phone "virtual reality headset."

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Now I have about as much use for a gaming accessory as I do a hard hit upside the head.

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But, you can carefully drill a hole so your camera phone lens can see out. Illuminate the dark area with IR LEDs and viola instant sort of night vision device. Of course there is zero depth perception. But, as proof of concept is was sort of neat, all the more so because the VR headset cost me all of $5. [I'm cheap.]

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And I have IR illuminators, boy do I have IR illuminators. A 60 X 60 aray that draws 2 amps. It's deep IR so you can't see it with the naked eye but your smart phone would love it.

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I also have a slew of surplus 30 IR LEDs mounted on a ring to go around a closed circuit TV camera lens.

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So I can flood an area with IR.

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?

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A friend wants a night vision headset with a crossbow equipped with an IR laser pointer. Robert always was a tad strange.

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?

?


 

On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 04:03 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
The only place I've ever seen AAAA being used was in laser pointers. And you can get 'em by siassembling a 9V, cheaper than buying them as AAAA...
My wife has something that uses one.? I think it goes with her tablet.? From about 5 years ago.
?
I got replacement AAAA cells at either CVS or the local grocery store.? They were relatively cheap at about $3 for a packet of 2 or 4.? Maybe that isn't cheap by everyone's standards, but it was good enough for me.? I think it would cost more to buy a pair of 9V batteries and cut them open, if that is really where you got yours from.
?
Andy
?


 

On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 01:30 PM, wn4isx wrote:
Up until alkaline cells replaced the Leclanch¨¦, the Leclanch¨¦ was the standard "D" "C" "AA" 9V.
Really?? So what you're saying is that all the carbon/zinc batteries that everyone around here (USA) used for decades before Alkalines came out, were actually Leclanche cells.? Then why didn't they - why didn't ANYONE - ever call them that?
?
Was it strictly an eastern Kentucky thing where they were called Leclanche?
?
That's odd, the Wikipedia page about Leclanche cells does not seem to suggest that they were the common ordinary carbon/zinc batteries everyone used before Alkalines.? Are you sure you have that right?
?
Andy
?


 

I've heard of "wet cells" versus "dry cells".? That Wikipedia article suggests that Leclanche cells would be called "wet cells" and were not the same as the normal "dry cells" that were commonly available in the USA before Alkalines.? It seems as if Leclanche cells petered out from common usage (in the USA) decades before Alkalines arrived and took over.
?
Andy
?


 

On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 01:30 PM, wn4isx wrote:
The "less likely to leak" has become a joke, all the major brands now leak long before their use by date.
If rumors are to be believed (I know, there's a major problem with that), then some brands are considerably better than others in this respect.
?
I have been warned never to buy name-brand "X" because they almost always leak, whereas name-brand "Y" rarely does.? I have heard that said by several people, which suggests there is some truth to it.
?
At the same time, though, I would expect that it is a "moving target", and what was the best advice 5 or 10 years ago, is probably meaningless today, as the name brands frequently change their suppliers.
?
It used to be simpler when we knew things were manufactured domestically by the company with the name on the box, by?the same factories and people over long periods of time.? But I digress.
?
Andy
?


 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

It appears to me that the alkaline batteries have gotten worse.? Presumably thinner shell to save money and increased performance.

It also appears that the free carbon-zinc batteries from China leak less.? They do not push the life/performance issue.

Regardless, I have switched to rechargeable Enelope cells.? I have not had a leak yet after many years.

Bertho

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Andy via groups.io
Sent: 2 March, 2025 1:50
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [electronics101] Batteries

?

On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 01:30 PM, wn4isx wrote:

The "less likely to leak" has become a joke, all the major brands now leak long before their use by date.

If rumors are to be believed (I know, there's a major problem with that), then some brands are considerably better than others in this respect.

?

I have been warned never to buy name-brand "X" because they almost always leak, whereas name-brand "Y" rarely does.? I have heard that said by several people, which suggests there is some truth to it.

?

At the same time, though, I would expect that it is a "moving target", and what was the best advice 5 or 10 years ago, is probably meaningless today, as the name brands frequently change their suppliers.

?

It used to be simpler when we knew things were manufactured domestically by the company with the name on the box, by?the same factories and people over long periods of time.? But I digress.

?

Andy

?


wn4isx
 

Nobody but engineers and chemists called them by their proper name.
Leclanch¨¦ cells were the first practical "dry cell." They started out dry but the electrolyte was replaced with magnesium dioxide and they became 'dry.' [damp really] Of course "as deployed" they were quite different from the original and featured additions/modifications by several people.
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/zinc-carbon-battery
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I took a class in the "physics of electrical cells" in 'university' and learned the proper name.
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Most of us called them carbon-zinc batteries being ignorant that a battery is a collection of cells.
I cringe when I hear people call a "D" cell a battery.
?
You can actually recharge carbon-zinc/Leclanch¨¦ cells. They don't recharge all that well, the only place I could see the process being worthwhile was for a night watchman, use one set and recharge the other.
Going from a vague memory, each recharge lost about 5% of capacity. Typically recharging ended when the process ate through the zinc shell.
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There was a long series of letters to the editor in one of the magazines about how to improve charging.
One thing that appeared to have helped was to have about 10% reverse charge during the process.
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Everready [or one of the battery companies] actually sold a commercial charger.
I don't think you can recharge alkaline cells at all. even charging the carbon-zinc was a loss leader.
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The university class was interesting because it helped me understand "Primary batteries are burning metal to produce electricity." Not exactly accurate but it gets the idea across. We visited Oak Ridge and saw a liquid sodium battery. Good energy to weight ratio but molten sodium is pretty energetic if there is a leak.
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At the time, silver-cadmium had the best, as in highest energy to weight ratio, they were prone to memory just like nickle-cadmium but handled temperature extremes better. Of course they were somewhere so far beyond obscene expensive only the military and NASA could use them. The US Navy OSCAR series used them. The Nike' Zeus missile defense missiles would have also used them.?
[Been to one Nike' Zeus as they demolished it. Interesting site.]?
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Note: The Navy OSCAR and amateur Oscar only share names and have nothing else but being satellites in common.
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?
?
??
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wn4isx
 

On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 10:48 AM, wn4isx wrote:
I wrote:
They started out dry but the electrolyte was replaced with magnesium dioxide and they became 'dry.'
That should have been?
They started out wet but the electrolyte was replaced with magnesium dioxide and they became 'dry.'
?
I'm still on codeine cough syrup and it sure shows. Glad I don't have to drive anywhere today.


 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

One more battery detail:

Pagers (beepers) used N-cells and later AA-cels.? Mercury cells were popular with the much longer life.

I collected dead cells and recovered the mercury that I then refined.

Designing the RF and IF sections was not easy.? From the single cell, there was a linear regulator so only 0.975V was available at a couple of mA.

Bertho


 

On Sunday 02 March 2025 01:29:11 am Andy via groups.io wrote:
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 04:03 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

The only place I've ever seen AAAA being used was in laser pointers. And
you can get 'em by siassembling a 9V, cheaper than buying them as AAAA...
My wife has something that uses one.? I think it goes with her tablet.? From about 5 years ago.

I got replacement AAAA cells at either CVS or the local grocery store.? They were relatively cheap at about $3 for a packet of 2 or 4.? Maybe that isn't cheap by everyone's standards, but it was good enough for me.? I think it would cost more to buy a pair of 9V batteries and cut them open, if that is really where you got yours from.
You don't need to cut anything open. Just grab one corner of the sheet metal where it joins with a pair of needle nosed pliers, and twist. Keep going like that and eventually you peel all of the metal off. Early 9V batteries had six smallish rectangular cells stacked, but the current alkaline ones have six AAAA cells standing up.

I don't have anything around here that uses them. Some stuff here uses AAA, which is annoying enough. Going from AAA to AA you get almost 3 times the power out of it...

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin