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Selecting microcontroller for hobby projects - opinions wanted.
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I do not want to highjack another thread , but would like to hear some group comments on selection of microcontrollers for projects.
After reading some comments here I feel it is a time to ditch my controller and go for something new. Basically my old controller was a stand alone circuitry with flaky serial interface and programmed in flavor of Basic. I have been looking to add USB 鈥瀊reakout鈥� circuit but now I realize that there are devices on market with USB and other interfaces build in , can be programmed in C and with plenty of memory. However, in past I have been unlucky to pick a device which did not became popular ( 3 varactor diodes in one IC, single (!) bit microcontroller etc.) and were soon out of production. I am seeking group opinions on what microcontroller works for you and which one did not. Vaclav PS I am not sure if we can avoid 鈥瀙lugs" by not naming vendors and still have reasonably accurate discussion here. |
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--- In Electronics_101@..., "vaclav_sal" <vaclav_sal@...> wrote:
We have had a couple of threads on this very topic over the last couple of months. Bottom line: there is no perfect uC; that's why there are hundreds of variants. It really comes down to: what you want to do, where you're starting from (skillset), what tools you want to use, what platform you use for development, physical restraints (size, package), etc. I like Atmel AVRs for midrange stuff but I also use Microchip PICs and I particularly like the 16F88. It's a lot like Barbie; it has everything. I also like the ARM7s for higher speeds and larger applications but I think highly of the Arduino (primarily because of the libraries and reduced startup effort) and the mbed where everything is done via a web browser. I am not totally in love with the Parallax Stamp but it has more documentation and sample hobby-level projects than all the other devices combined (a wild guess on my part). It will come down to seeing what is available (try ) and reading a lot of datasheets or user manuals. Servo Magazine and Nuts and Volts Magazine have articles every month on one device or another. The February 2011 edition of Nuts and Volts is beginning a series with a 32 bit experimenter board. It is based on the PIC32MX695F12H, a modest 64 pin device. Following along might be a good idea. The same edition of Servo magazine is working on part 6 of an Arudino robotics project. Arduino is a nice platform as is mbed with mbed having the edge in terms of speed and capacity while Arduino has the edge for completed projects. I haven't even touched on the offerings from ST or TI as they are similar to the NXP chips (ARM7) that I play around with. I use the LPC2106 and LPC2148 although both are showing their age. There are many other possibilities. The number of alternatives makes declaring a 'best' chip impossible. It really comes down to the application requirements and the skillset. Richard |
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Just name the vendors.
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I'm curious to see how this shakes out. Steve Greenfield AE7HD --- In Electronics_101@..., "vaclav_sal" <vaclav_sal@...> wrote:
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normnet2003
--- In Electronics_101@..., "vaclav_sal" <vaclav_sal@...> wrote:
I too have been working with in Basic (PIC) but am looking for more capabilities for audio and video. I am getting started with the NXP LPC1768(Cortex-M3) which is an ARM 32 bit 100MHz with the development board found at: I am getting starting with the Rowley Crossworks IDE at: Norm |
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DON
Flavour of the month for me at the momment in MCUs is the PIC 18F4550
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35 I/O pins USB SPI I2C 2.0V to 5.5V 4 timers 3 interrupts PWM Enhanced Usart 13 A/D channels Architecture optimised for C compiler Pretty much everything in one chip Can get it in dip package so shaky hands like mine dont have trouble soldering Reasonable price Couldnt ask for more Don --- In Electronics_101@..., "normnet2003" <normnet@...> wrote:
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Thanks guys,
just for clarification - I was not looking for "does everything including coffee and donuts" hardware. I may be an exception but I believe one needs to "design" the application with general idea about the processor and than look for the optimal hardware to accomplish the task. As far as Basic Stamp I believe it is good starting point to learn about the firmware solutions to simple projects. But I am not too fond of vendor's reliance on users to answer newcomers questions and solve problems. On few occasions I also noticed users "complaining" about the price of the product, especially when it has been around for few years by now. I never used or know much about the Propeller chip" , but I think the development software is Parallax proprietary and that to me would be a major deterrent for using it. I think the main "selling " point is Propeller's multicore CPU. (Please correct me if I am off base here.) As an addendum 鈥� it would be nice to include some comments on software. Let's face it 鈥� if I buy $50 worth of hardware only to find out that I get 30 days free usage of castrated IDE running only on Windows currently in beta test 鈥� it is is no bargain for me as a hobbyist. Cheers Vaclav PS Got to go and get some sleep, volunteering in Houston marathon tomorrow at 0400 ( that' s AM ) ! |
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James M. \(Jim\) Geidl
Vaclav,
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You probably will not find any company that will provide MORE help than Parallax, they are truly devoted to the concept of customer service. I am not sure where you got the impression that they rely on their users to support their products as nothing could be further from the truth. Now, having said all that, the Basic STAMP is kind of pricey. It is limited and it does run on a form of Basic. You might want to look at the Arduino processors. James "Jim" M. Geidl, K6JMG No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. -----Original Message----- |
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I found the arduino to be an excelent learning platform. I started playing
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with those about a year ago and now one runs my furnace, interfaces my obd2 in my truck, opens my garage door from my phone, etc.. very large friendly community with tons of examples. My latest toy I got for xmas is the BeagleboardXM. This thing is full blown with capabilities to run 720p video, usb ports, gpio,etc. It can host full blown ubuntu, android, megoo,... wince, it runs at 1ghz 512ram, off a micro sd. Arm is so sweet. You have more than most others with embedded Linux. But its not for the newcomer, unless your up for a challenge. I'm currently playing with embedded QT stand alone gui. Arduino = easy and lots of ready made examples Almost forgot the Cerebot32mx4, it has a pic32, lots of io, uarts, etc, more adanced than the arduino and tougher to learn. I started with the basic stamp but quickly outgrew it when people on forums said it wasn't fast enough to do the things I was asking questions about. I was quickly looking elsewhere. I,d say ride the arduino mega around for a while, their cheap and can do lots of fun stuff. That all depends on your current skill level also. Mark On Jan 29, 2011 9:57 PM, "vaclav_sal" <vaclav_sal@...> wrote:
Thanks guys, just for clarification - I was not looking for "does everything including coffee and donuts" hardware. I may be an exception but I believe one needs to "design" the application with general idea about the processor and than look for the optimal hardware to accomplish the task. As far as Basic Stamp I believe it is good starting point to learn about the firmware solutions to simple projects. But I am not too fond of vendor's reliance on users to answer newcomers questions and solve problems. On few occasions I also noticed users "complaining" about the price of the product, especially when it has been around for few years by now. I never used or know much about the Propeller chip" , but I think the development software is Parallax proprietary and that to me would be a major deterrent for using it. I think the main "selling " point is Propeller's multicore CPU. (Please correct me if I am off base here.) As an addendum � it would be nice to include some comments on software. Let's face it � if I buy $50 worth of hardware only to find out that I get 30 days free usage of castrated IDE running only on Windows currently in beta test � it is is no bargain for me as a hobbyist. Cheers Vaclav PS Got to go and get some sleep, volunteering in Houston marathon tomorrow at 0400 ( that' s AM ) ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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If you want a high-end "hobby" part, the new 32-bit RX-62N series from
Renesas has USB host and device, Ethernet, lots of ram/rom (including sdram), and GCC support on Windows, Linux, and Mac. I've done a couple projects with them (and the older RX-610) here: For smaller parts, the R8C series, which has been around for a while now, has a decent amount of RAM for a 16-bit part, as does the M16C which is just a bigger version of the same, and some of those have USB device built-in. Again, GCC support under Windows and Linux at least. As for longevity, Renesas is well known in the Japanese auto industry, where you have to keep parts in production for decades, not just years. Their parts can be purchased in the USA through Digikey. Unfortunately, none of these parts come in standard DIP packages. I usually end up making an adapter for my breadboard or a breakout board for each chip, until I've got enough experience with it to just design it into a pcb. However, they're all programmed via a standard UART interface and some jumpers, and the protocols are all well documented. |
As far as Basic Stamp I believe it is good starting point to learn aboutthe firmware solutions to simple projects. I once saw a documentary on the some arctic researchers.聽 They needed a Tundra Roamer (I forgot what its official name was) - basically a giant beach ball that gets blown around by the wind - and collect weather info.聽 The documentary quickly flashed the PC board and I freeze framed it and saw... a Basic Stamp (one of their high end uC) !!聽 These researchers are some of the smartest people around and they chose the beginner's Basic Stamp.聽 It can do a lot - and not just "simple" projects. Also: there are lot of Basic Stamp (and Basic language) haters out there that never used the system.聽 So take some thing you hear about it with a grain of salt.聽 Some of what you mentioned was also incorrect (no offense). ===== But I am not too fond ofvendor's reliance on users to answer newcomers questions and solveproblems. That's not Basic Stamp (Parallax) as far as I know.聽 Even so, products like LTSpice has great user community - and I dare say that the question gets answered faster on the LTSpice forum over other factory representatives - usually within hours (a day at most). Don't knock user community.聽 You are on one.聽 :-) ==== On few occasions I also noticed users "complaining" about theprice of the product, especially when it has been around for few yearsby now. No debate here. Basic Stamp isn't expensive because it is new.聽 It is their business model.聽 They just don't expect their customers to be buying a hundred of it.聽 They expect their customers to buy one or two stamps and then re-use them for learning projects. But also consider that you can literally download almost ALL their education material (eBooks and PDF) for FREE !!聽 That's not bad for price of one uC (or zero uC - they are completely free). Sadly (for Parallax) their time has come and maybe about to go.聽 Picaxe is doing what Parallax is doing but at fraction of the cost. The cheapest Picaxe is about $3 while cheapest BS is about $50.聽 Picaxe is easy (Basic Language programming) like Basic Stamp, but also cheap enough for many one-off projects too. ===== I never used or know much about the Propeller chip" , but I think thedevelopment software is Parallax proprietary and that to me would be amajor deterrent for using it. Just about ALL uC use proprietary development software.聽 There are some FREEWARE compilers for various uC but the makers almost all start out with proprietary development software.聽 If you want completely FREEWARE development software, then you are almost stuck with AVR.聽 Their "free" compiler is the GCC (very good compiler).聽 But then you are back to USER COMMUNITY support. ====== I think the main "selling " point isPropeller's multicore CPU. (Please correct me if I am off base here.) I would have to agree. ====== Let's face it 鈥� if I buy $50 worth of hardware only to find out that Iget 30 days free usage of castrated IDE running only on Windowscurrently in beta test 鈥� it is is no bargain for me as a hobbyist. I think you are talking about Pickit from PICmicro.聽 I am also just a hobbyist.聽 But their FREE compiler is supposed to be "good enough" for hobbyist.聽 Either that or spend $200 (or more) for commercial compilers. Back to AVR - their IDE and compiler are all FREE and full versions.聽 The caveat is that it is GCC (Gnu freeware) and user community supported (Avr Freaks - a very active and good community).聽 You gotta pick your poison.聽 Freeware or Spendware. ====== Summary of uC (from my understanding): Basic Stamp:聽 Expensive but easy to learn. PicAxe: Cheap and easy to learn (still Basic programming language) PicMicro: Some low end uC are dirt cheap. Their beginner programmer (hardware) is about $50 to $100.聽 Free compiler is somewhat crippled (no optimization and limit on max code size).聽 Commercial compilers in Basic, C, Pascal, Mongolian...聽 Pickit 3 will also allow in-circuit debugging. Avr: Very consistent architecture.聽 Free IDE and Free compiler (both full versions).聽 User community supported (not negative in my book, but apparently big minus in your book).聽 Requires AVR JTAG ICE to debug - about $40 (ebay home made version) to $300 (official AVR version).聽 But you can get your feet wet with AVR butterfly for about $20.聽 AVR Butterfly has uC, real time clock, large LCD, battery backup, mini joystick, temp sensor, piezo speaker, etc. Jong P.S.聽 Here's a commercial compiler vendor for both PIC and AVR: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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--- In Electronics_101@..., "vaclav_sal" <vaclav_sal@...> wrote:
In the boat building world, there is a saying that "Nothing too strong ever broke." and this applies to uC's as well. It harms nothing to have more features and speed than the absolute minimum required. For one thing, you can pick a device and use it for a lot of projects. Maybe you just want to play with something you just saw in a magazine. Having a development board that is "too much" won't hurt a thing. In the AVR world, I like the ATmega128. I have some BD Micro (www.bdmicro.com) MAVRIC boards and I can do almost any experimet I want. Sure, if I decide to actually BUILD the thing I might take a step back although for the one-off project, chip cost isn't a limiting concern. As far as Basic Stamp I believe it is good starting point to learn about the firmware solutions to simple projects. But I am not too fond of vendor's reliance on users to answer newcomers questions and solve problems. On few occasions I also noticed users "complaining" about the price of the product, especially when it has been around for few years by now. I think the Stamp books are about the easiest and best written books available on starting with the Stamp. They are literally intended for kids building their first projects. The Propellor doesn't have multiple toolchains because there is no second source for the device. But as long as Parallax sells the device, they will provide the tools. BTW, it's an interesting chip and using them to build retro video games is a lot of fun.
Then stick to devices for which the GNU toolchain has been ported. With the Eclipse IDE and the GNU tools, you can run on Linux or Windows. The AVRs, ARMs and even the very fast ADI BlackFin are supported among MANY others that I haven't used. There is a certain advantage to using the same toolchain over many devices. Richard |
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--- In Electronics_101@..., DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
The package may well be a serious limitation. Some folks just don't want to do SMD on 100 pin parts. I won't even consider BGA packages although I will do the SMD. DIP packages are nice to use (that's why I like the PIC 16F88) and easy to route. Richard |
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Andrewdavid.mathison
Hi Vaclav
everyone seems to have forgotten PICAXE.......Really easy to use, very cheap (UK Government subsidy), no programmer needed, all software is free to download, great Forum, really fast chips with a lot of I/O or smaller ones with less.....lots of support, pcbs, and third party units, all over the world..... Click here:- Greetings from Andy Mathison |
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James M. \(Jim\) Geidl
Andy,
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You are correct, the picaxe chips are very nice. Picaxe seems to be making a very conscious thrust into the market. I see a lot more "conversation" about them and most of it is great. This is also US distribution but I can't remember the name of the company that does it. Shouldn't be too hard to find on the 'net. James "Jim" M. Geidl, K6JMG No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. -----Original Message----- |
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John T. Blair
At 05:12 PM 1/30/2011, Andy Mathison wrote:
everyone seems to have forgotten PICAXE.......Really easy to use, very cheapsmaller ones with less.....lots of support, pcbs, and third party units, all over theworld..... All this discussion on the micro controllers sound really neat. I've wanted to try and play with one, and been looking at a couple. Radio Shack had a Basic stamp kit and ARRL had a PIC (don't remember what now) with a fairly large book to go along with it. I was wondering what you all are using them for. I can see if you're a design engineer for an appliance company and need something for your stove, refig, or microwave. But what are the hobbiest doing with them? Just curious, and looking for something to do with one, if I spent the money to play with one. John John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948@... Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: www.team.net/www/morgan Bricklin: www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! |
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James M. \(Jim\) Geidl
John,
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I play at robotics and use the mcu for the brains of my robots. Before you buy one at Radio Shack be sure and compare prices on the Internet. James "Jim" M. Geidl, K6JMG No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. -----Original Message----- |
everyone seems to have forgotten PICAXE.......I haven't. I mentioned it.聽 I really am chopped liver around here. ;-) ===== Really easy to use, very cheap (UK Government subsidy),But still BASIC.聽 I have no problem with it.聽 But it seems others might think so. ==== no programmer needed,It needs a serial (RS232) connection.聽 Most new computers (especially laptops) don't have SERIAL ports.聽 There seems to be some limitations on what kind of USB-Serial converter may and may not work: ==== By the way, how is it that the PicAxe can communicate using RS232 standard (negative voltage levels) without a converter? Jong |
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--- In Electronics_101@..., "John T. Blair" <jblair1948@...> wrote:
Just curious, and looking for something to do with one, if I spent the money toI am a code weenie at heart so I may not actuslly DO anything with them. I might just write little samples or copy code projects I find on the Internet. I have used them for small robots, a controller for a 12' battery powered launch (a real boat controlled by a joystick), an interface between an FPGA project and the local area network, an interface between a PS2 controller and a PC, a controller for a 5 DOF robotic arm (Lynxmotion) with a PS2 control (VERY MUCH like the cover project for the Feb 2011 issue of Servo Magazine), a servo control for a pan/tilt camera using a Wii nunchuk for input; stuff like that. One project used a Blackfin microcontroller (VERY FAST 16 bit uC) to grab test vectors (data) from an FTP server running on my desktop, jam them into an FPGA implementation of a PDP11-45 arithmetic unit via the SPI protocol, retrieve the results and print diagnostic messages to a console session on the desktop. I also like hardware design so I an interested in the differences among the various microcontrollers. They're just toys; I like to play with them. Richard |
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meredith_garniss
I'm going to second the Arduino (AVR) suggestion. The arduino microcontroller is easy to learn, is open source hardware, has the usb capabilities including an available breakout board, is programmed with some limited subset of C , has a free IDE that works on Mac, PC or Linux, and is dirt cheap.
As a bonus, since the Arduino board is open source, there are other IDEs that will work with it in other languages, such as RoR. And if you blow up your board you can always buy another one for less than $20. If there is a local hackerspace in the area, pay them a visit and see what they are using. Your local hackerspace will probably be able to get you up and runninng on the Arduino platform quickly and show you some examples. There's a reason the platform is so popular. Meredith G. www.6smith.com |
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OK, I am going to add my vote for the Arduino also.
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In the past 4 years I have always designed my commercial projects with a specific pcb around one of the Atmel AVR family. The hackergoup that I have been attending here in Melbourne Australia for the last year uses Arduinos in various forms. I am using the Seeeduino mega for my current commercial design and am happy that I decided to do so because I can get to the "show and tell" stage faster than having to lay out a pcb, etc. Cheers, Ross On 31/01/2011 11:53 AM, meredith_garniss wrote:
I'm going to second the Arduino (AVR) suggestion. |
Steven AE7HD
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