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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:34:55 -0000
From: "Mr." <rschechter@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 134

--- In Electronics_101@y..., Jim Purcell <jpurcell@w...> wrote:.

Sorry, but the charge is stored in the dielectric. That's why the

amount of

capacitance depends in part on the kind of dielectric. A conductor

will not

store a charge, only provide a path for it. Insulators respond to

the potential


Jim, My understanding of the capacitor is that the actual electron
are stored on the plate, or conductor. The closer you can get them
together (meaning a thinner and less conductive dielectric), the more
force they exert on each other. Both parts are involved, but the
charge is on the plates.
Rex

I don't understand it either but the Navy training manuals agree with Jim. I
think I'm going to try an experiment when I get time. I'll make a capacitor
out of two flat plates with a piece of paper between them. After charging
them, I'll change paper & see if they discharge. I'll get right to that &
report the results....after I paint the house, remodel the kitchen, put new
carpet in the hall.....etc.,etc. The honeydews are pretty thick right now.
:)

Jim KC0GSX

Another interesting experiment would be to insert a metal plate inside the dielectric so that you have: plate-dielectric-plate-dielectric-plate. The middle plate (ground it?) should prevent any magnetic field from forming and you may not be able to charge this capacitor at all.

-Mike

From: "J. Pinkston" <pinkston@...>
Reply-To: Electronics_101@...
To: <Electronics_101@...>
Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Digest Number 140
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:39:26 -0600

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:34:55 -0000
From: "Mr." <rschechter@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 134

--- In Electronics_101@y..., Jim Purcell <jpurcell@w...> wrote:.

Sorry, but the charge is stored in the dielectric. That's why the

amount of

capacitance depends in part on the kind of dielectric. A conductor

will not

store a charge, only provide a path for it. Insulators respond to

the potential


Jim, My understanding of the capacitor is that the actual electron
are stored on the plate, or conductor. The closer you can get them
together (meaning a thinner and less conductive dielectric), the more
force they exert on each other. Both parts are involved, but the
charge is on the plates.
Rex

I don't understand it either but the Navy training manuals agree with Jim. I
think I'm going to try an experiment when I get time. I'll make a capacitor
out of two flat plates with a piece of paper between them. After charging
them, I'll change paper & see if they discharge. I'll get right to that &
report the results....after I paint the house, remodel the kitchen, put new
carpet in the hall.....etc.,etc. The honeydews are pretty thick right now.
:)

Jim KC0GSX

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"J. Pinkston",

I don't understand it either but the Navy training manuals agree with Jim. I
think I'm going to try an experiment when I get time. I'll make a capacitor
out of two flat plates with a piece of paper between them. After charging
them, I'll change paper & see if they discharge. I'll get right to that &
report the results....after I paint the house, remodel the kitchen, put new
carpet in the hall.....etc.,etc. The honeydews are pretty thick right now.

Here's my prediction of what will happen, although you may not be able to
detect this. When the paper is between the plates there will be a charge of
so many coulombs. When you remove the paper, the charge will fall to
match the new dielectric. Now whether that would happen whether or
not the charging voltage is removed or not, I won't try to predict.
I guess the question is whether the electric field will changer after the
charging voltage is removed AND the dielectric constant is changed.

Jim

Mike,
When you say "magnetic field" do you mean it the magnetic field in the
inductance issue?
SUNAN

d nixon,

Another interesting experiment would be to insert a metal plate inside the
dielectric so that you have: plate-dielectric-plate-dielectric-plate. The
middle plate (ground it?) should prevent any magnetic field from forming and
you may not be able to charge this capacitor at all.

Hmm... Where was the ground when this capacitor was charged. Did that
change. Too many loose ends to predict. My first reaction was that this
would be two series caps, which I think it is, grounding the center plate
threw the monkey wrench.

Jim

Sunantoro,

When you say "magnetic field" do you mean it the magnetic field in the
inductance issue?

As long as we are splitting hairs, [whop, one rabbit into two]
You can have a magnetic field in an inductor but not in inductance.
Inductance is a property that induces voltage in a conductor.
True it takes a mag. field but inductance doesn't directly take into account
of the quantity of mag field.

My aren't we contemplating navels tonight?

Jim

Sunan,

I mean the field between the two plates. Magnetic fields induce current flow and current flow creates magnetic fields. Doesn't the field between the two plates have to be magnetic?

-Mike

From: Sunantoro <SUNANTORO@...>
Reply-To: Electronics_101@...
To: "'Electronics_101@...'" <Electronics_101@...>
Subject: RE: [Electronics_101] Digest Number 140
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:43:32 +0700

Mike,
When you say "magnetic field" do you mean it the magnetic field in the
inductance issue?
SUNAN

-----Original Message-----
From: d nixon [SMTP:dnixon9@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:16 AM
To: Electronics_101@...
Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Digest Number 140

Another interesting experiment would be to insert a metal plate
inside the dielectric so that you have:
plate-dielectric-plate-dielectric-plate. The middle plate (ground it?)
should prevent any magnetic field from forming and you may not be able to
charge this capacitor at all.
-Mike

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Jim,

My attempt here was to experiment with the relationship between the field and the charge. With a grounded plate in the middle a field should not be able to develop (correct?). If the charge is stored entirely in the field then this cap would not charge.

-Mike

From: Jim Purcell <jpurcell@...>
Reply-To: Electronics_101@...
To: Electronics_101@...
Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Digest Number 140
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:46:09 -0600

d nixon,

Another interesting experiment would be to insert a metal plate inside

the

dielectric so that you have: plate-dielectric-plate-dielectric-plate.

The

middle plate (ground it?) should prevent any magnetic field from forming

and

you may not be able to charge this capacitor at all.

Hmm... Where was the ground when this capacitor was charged. Did that
change. Too many loose ends to predict. My first reaction was that this
would be two series caps, which I think it is, grounding the center plate
threw the monkey wrench.

Jim

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d,

I mean the field between the two plates. Magnetic fields induce current
flow and current flow creates magnetic fields. Doesn't the field between
the two plates have to be magnetic?

The theory books tell us that the field in a capacitor is electrostatic. Unlike
the field around a coil that can be demonstrated to be magnetic, the
field in a capacitor is difficult to test as far as I know.

Jim

d,

My attempt here was to experiment with the relationship between the field
and the charge. With a grounded plate in the middle a field should not be
able to develop (correct?). If the charge is stored entirely in the field
then this cap would not charge.

I think it would depend on where this center plate is connected in relation to
the voltage applied to the outer plates. If this center plate has no reference
to these outer plates it should have no effect. If it does have a potential
relationship to the other plates you might just have half a capacitor.

Jim

The electric field is just as easy to observe/quantify as the magnetic field. Both field exert a physical force. The physical force is measured as movement against a calibrated spring.

The D'arsnval movement in an analog voltmeter actually measures the distance of travel of a force against a calibrated spring. The force is created between a permanent magnet and an electromagnet. The force is directly proportional to the current in the electromagnet. Therefore, it is actually an ameter.

There is another type of meter. It still measures the distance of travel of a force against a calibrated spring. The force is created by the electric field between two charged objects. Theelectric field is directly proportional to the voltage between the two objects. It is, therefore, a volt meter.


Doug

Jim Purcell wrote:

Doug,

The electric field is just as easy to observe/quantify as the magnetic
field. Both field exert a physical force. The physical force is measured
as movement against a calibrated spring.

Not inside a capacitor.

Jim

Just measure the voltage.

Doug

Jim Purcell wrote: