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--- In Electronics_101@..., "Harold Darter" <darter@...> wrote:
...

I cut a small piece of it off (It cut very easily) and tried my hot air gun
on it. It bubbled and smoked but didn't melt.

Thanks,
Hal

My experience - just pick it out.

To replace it, you'll want a flowable soft-cure silicone compatible with electronics. Dow Corning makes a few.



Steve Greenfield AE7HD

At 11:01 30 01 11, Harold Darter wrote:

I cut a small piece of it off (It cut very easily) and tried my hot air gun
on it. It bubbled and smoked but didn't melt.

That seems like a method unlikely to produce satisfactory results
anyway. Short of careful temperature controls and peeling the coating
away before it smokes and bubbles. Soften it but don't melt it, IOW.

But if it is rubbery and cuts easily, I'd try dissolving it with a
solvent. Be careful not to use anything that would be damaging to
the circuit board, the components or their markings. Alcohol, maybe.
Or a paint thinner such as Xylene, perhaps. Section off a small piece
and see any of several solvents dissolve it. Then test those solvents
on some other, sacrificial components to see if they remain viable.
I'd try gasoline if nothing else works. I would not try lacquer
thinner, I think that'll remove the component markings. Xylene might
also.

Reese

The factory has already told him there is no warranty.聽 ...

> ...leads me to believe that the design

was defective.

Sure sounds like it.

====

Anyway I can't proceed until I identify this rubbery product and a method to

remove and reapply it.

I don't know about reapplying it but acetone often melts (dissolves) a lot of "goo".聽 Try some small sample.

====

I cut a small piece of it off (It cut very easily) and tried my hot air gun

on it. It bubbled and smoked but didn't melt.

I guess that is the point of the goo - to prevent prying eyes from inspection (learning / copying) the design.


Jong

P.S.聽 May I ask what is the component in question ?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Jong,


The factory has already told him there is no warranty. Undoubtedly their
warranty period on repairs is short.

The last time he talked to them he asked about a new board. They told him he
would also have to buy a new throttle and display unit (at several hundred
dollars) because of design changes. This and the posts I found on other
boards from people with the same problem leads me to believe that the design
was defective.

Anyway I can't proceed until I identify this rubbery product and a method to
remove and reapply it.

I cut a small piece of it off (It cut very easily) and tried my hot air gun
on it. It bubbled and smoked but didn't melt.

Thanks,
Hal
_____

From: Electronics_101@...
[mailto:Electronics_101@...] On Behalf Of jong kung
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:46 AM
To: Electronics_101@...
Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Re: Buddy's trolling motor

If factory repaired (!) it - it should be working.

Agreed.

====

If not, return it for repair unless ...

Also remember that often factories will BLAME you once you open it. I once
sent back a power supply for repair (not PC power supply). They put little
temper sticker so they can tell if somebody opened it. It failed the day I
got it back. I had to stick a tiny flashlight into an opening and saw that
one of the power transistor was NOT flush mounted to the aluminum casing
(not properly heat-sinked).

I called the company and told them what I saw. I asked if it is OK for me
to open it and attempt to repair it (saving the company valuable $$ for 2
way overnight FexEx). They replied that once I open it, they can no longer
warranty it - even though I am trying to save them money. I told them I
would send them pictures of it before my repair attempt (so they know for
sure) - but NOPE !!

That repair was $300 and I was not about to lose the warranty. If you still
have warranty, send it back.

Jong

P.S. they would NOT tell me what failed the second time. But I saw the
power transistor flush mounted afterward.

Hey Vaclav,

"If factory repaired (!) it - it should be working."

Worked for about a month and quit. This is the third time it has failed. The
factory charged him for the last repair and informed him he would be charged
to repair it again. So no warranty is involved.

"If you take the plastic goo out of it you may damage it."

That is the reason I posted my question. I reasoned if the factory did in
fact repair the unit versus sending my friend a new one that there was a way
to remove the black rubber material covering the board.

"Even when you get the goo out, just "looking at it" will not solve
anything."

I disagree with you on that point. It very well could be a problem that a
visual inspection could determine.

"I am going to take wild guess - can you identify any electronic component?
Can you "work" on the board without schematic?"

A few I can see. There are 6 IRFP2907 MOSFETs and 2 1500uF electrolytic
capacitors. The answer to the last part is a resounding maybe.

"Do whatever you want, I am sure you will, but I see it as lost cause."

The lost cause part is right. When I first started to research this failure
I found several posts on other boards from people with the same experience,
but I didn't find anyone who had found a solution.

Hal







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--- In Electronics_101@..., DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:

Unfortunately, none of these parts come in standard DIP packages. I
usually end up making an adapter for my breadboard or a breakout board
for each chip, until I've got enough experience with it to just design
it into a pcb. However, they're all programmed via a standard UART
interface and some jumpers, and the protocols are all well documented.

The package may well be a serious limitation. Some folks just don't want to do SMD on 100 pin parts. I won't even consider BGA packages although I will do the SMD.

DIP packages are nice to use (that's why I like the PIC 16F88) and easy to route.

Richard

--- In Electronics_101@..., "vaclav_sal" <vaclav_sal@...> wrote:

Thanks guys,
just for clarification - I was not looking for "does everything including coffee and donuts" hardware. I may be an exception but I believe one needs to "design" the application with general idea about the processor and than look for the optimal hardware to accomplish the task.

In the boat building world, there is a saying that "Nothing too strong ever broke." and this applies to uC's as well. It harms nothing to have more features and speed than the absolute minimum required.

For one thing, you can pick a device and use it for a lot of projects. Maybe you just want to play with something you just saw in a magazine. Having a development board that is "too much" won't hurt a thing.

In the AVR world, I like the ATmega128. I have some BD Micro (www.bdmicro.com) MAVRIC boards and I can do almost any experimet I want. Sure, if I decide to actually BUILD the thing I might take a step back although for the one-off project, chip cost isn't a limiting concern.

As far as Basic Stamp I believe it is good starting point to learn about the firmware solutions to simple projects. But I am not too fond of vendor's reliance on users to answer newcomers questions and solve problems. On few occasions I also noticed users "complaining" about the price of the product, especially when it has been around for few years by now.
I never used or know much about the Propeller chip" , but I think the development software is Parallax proprietary and that to me would be a major deterrent for using it. I think the main "selling " point is Propeller's multicore CPU. (Please correct me if I am off base here.)

I think the Stamp books are about the easiest and best written books available on starting with the Stamp. They are literally intended for kids building their first projects.

The Propellor doesn't have multiple toolchains because there is no second source for the device. But as long as Parallax sells the device, they will provide the tools. BTW, it's an interesting chip and using them to build retro video games is a lot of fun.

As an addendum 鈥� it would be nice to include some comments on software.

Let's face it 鈥� if I buy $50 worth of hardware only to find out that I get 30 days free usage of castrated IDE running only on Windows currently in beta test 鈥� it is is no bargain for me as a hobbyist.

Then stick to devices for which the GNU toolchain has been ported. With the Eclipse IDE and the GNU tools, you can run on Linux or Windows. The AVRs, ARMs and even the very fast ADI BlackFin are supported among MANY others that I haven't used. There is a certain advantage to using the same toolchain over many devices.


Richard

If factory repaired (!) it - it should be working.

Agreed.

====

If not, return it for repair unless ...

Also remember that often factories will BLAME you once you open it.聽 I once sent back a power supply for repair (not PC power supply).聽 They put little temper sticker so they can tell if somebody opened it.聽 It failed the day I got it back.聽 I had to stick a tiny flashlight into an opening and saw that one of the power transistor was NOT flush mounted to the aluminum casing (not properly heat-sinked).


I called the company and told them what I saw.聽 I asked if it is OK for me to open it and attempt to repair it (saving the company valuable $$ for 2 way overnight FexEx).聽 They replied that once I open it, they can no longer warranty it - even though I am trying to save them money.聽 I told them I would send them pictures of it before my repair attempt (so they know for sure) - but NOPE !!

That repair was $300 and I was not about to lose the warranty.聽 If you still have warranty, send it back.


Jong

P.S.聽 they would NOT tell me what failed the second time.聽 But I saw the power transistor flush mounted afterward.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As far as Basic Stamp I believe it is good starting

point to learn about

the firmware solutions to

simple projects.

I once saw a documentary on the some arctic researchers.聽 They needed a
Tundra Roamer (I forgot what its official name was) - basically a giant
beach ball that gets blown around by the wind - and collect weather
info.聽 The documentary quickly flashed the PC board and I freeze framed
it and saw... a Basic Stamp (one of their high end uC) !!聽 These
researchers are some of the smartest people around and they chose the
beginner's Basic Stamp.聽 It can do a lot - and not just "simple"
projects.



Also: there are lot of Basic Stamp (and Basic language) haters out there
that never used the system.聽 So take some thing you hear about it with a
grain of salt.聽 Some of what you mentioned was also incorrect (no
offense).



=====

But I am not too fond of

vendor's reliance on users

to answer newcomers questions and solve

problems.



That's not Basic Stamp (Parallax) as far as I know.聽 Even so, products
like LTSpice has great user community - and I dare say that the question
gets answered faster on the LTSpice forum over other factory
representatives - usually within hours (a day at most).



Don't knock user community.聽 You are on one.聽 :-)

====

On few occasions I also noticed users "complaining"

about the

price of the product, especially when it has

been around for few years

by now.




No debate here.



Basic Stamp isn't expensive because it is new.聽 It is their business
model.聽 They just don't expect their customers to be buying a hundred of
it.聽 They expect their customers to buy one or two stamps and then
re-use them for learning projects.



But also consider that you can literally download almost ALL their
education material (eBooks and PDF) for FREE !!聽 That's not bad for
price of one uC (or zero uC - they are completely free).



Sadly (for Parallax) their time has come and maybe about to go.聽 Picaxe
is doing what Parallax is doing but at fraction of the cost. The
cheapest Picaxe is about $3 while cheapest BS is about $50.聽 Picaxe is
easy (Basic Language programming) like Basic Stamp, but also cheap
enough for many one-off projects too.



=====

I never used or know much about the Propeller chip" ,

but I think the

development software is Parallax

proprietary and that to me would be a

major

deterrent for using it.

Just about ALL uC use proprietary development software.聽 There are some
FREEWARE compilers for various uC but the makers almost all start out
with proprietary development software.聽 If you want completely FREEWARE
development software, then you are almost stuck with AVR.聽 Their "free"
compiler is the GCC (very good compiler).聽 But then you are back to USER
COMMUNITY support.



======

I think the main "selling " point is

Propeller's multicore

CPU. (Please correct me if I am off base here.)

I would have to agree.



======

Let's face it 鈥� if I buy $50 worth of hardware only to find

out that I

get 30 days free usage of castrated IDE running

only on Windows

currently in beta test 鈥� it is is no bargain for

me as a hobbyist.

I think you are talking about Pickit from PICmicro.聽 I am also just a
hobbyist.聽 But their FREE compiler is supposed to be "good enough" for
hobbyist.聽 Either that or spend $200 (or more) for commercial compilers.



Back to AVR - their IDE and compiler are all FREE and full versions.聽
The caveat is that it is GCC (Gnu freeware) and user community supported
(Avr Freaks - a very active and good community).聽



You gotta pick your poison.聽 Freeware or Spendware.



======



Summary of uC (from my understanding):



Basic Stamp:聽 Expensive but easy to learn.



PicAxe: Cheap and easy to learn (still Basic programming language)



PicMicro: Some low end uC are dirt cheap. Their beginner programmer
(hardware) is about $50 to $100.聽 Free compiler is somewhat crippled (no
optimization and limit on max code size).聽 Commercial compilers in
Basic, C, Pascal, Mongolian...聽 Pickit 3 will also allow in-circuit
debugging.



Avr: Very consistent architecture.聽 Free IDE and Free compiler (both
full versions).聽 User community supported (not negative in my book, but
apparently big minus in your book).聽 Requires AVR JTAG ICE to debug -
about $40 (ebay home made version) to $300 (official AVR version).聽 But
you can get your feet wet with AVR butterfly for about $20.聽 AVR
Butterfly has uC, real time clock, large LCD, battery backup, mini
joystick, temp sensor, piezo speaker, etc.









Jong



P.S.聽 Here's a commercial compiler vendor for both PIC and AVR:










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you want a high-end "hobby" part, the new 32-bit RX-62N series from
Renesas has USB host and device, Ethernet, lots of ram/rom (including
sdram), and GCC support on Windows, Linux, and Mac. I've done a couple
projects with them (and the older RX-610) here:



For smaller parts, the R8C series, which has been around for a while
now, has a decent amount of RAM for a 16-bit part, as does the M16C
which is just a bigger version of the same, and some of those have USB
device built-in. Again, GCC support under Windows and Linux at least.

As for longevity, Renesas is well known in the Japanese auto industry,
where you have to keep parts in production for decades, not just years.
Their parts can be purchased in the USA through Digikey.

Unfortunately, none of these parts come in standard DIP packages. I
usually end up making an adapter for my breadboard or a breakout board
for each chip, until I've got enough experience with it to just design
it into a pcb. However, they're all programmed via a standard UART
interface and some jumpers, and the protocols are all well documented.

I found the arduino to be an excelent learning platform. I started playing
with those about a year ago and now one runs my furnace, interfaces my obd2
in my truck, opens my garage door from my phone, etc.. very large friendly
community with tons of examples.
My latest toy I got for xmas is the BeagleboardXM. This thing is full blown
with capabilities to run 720p video, usb ports, gpio,etc. It can host full
blown ubuntu, android, megoo,... wince, it runs at 1ghz 512ram, off a micro
sd. Arm is so sweet. You have more than most others with embedded Linux. But
its not for the newcomer, unless your up for a challenge. I'm currently
playing with embedded QT stand alone gui.

Arduino = easy and lots of ready made examples

Almost forgot the Cerebot32mx4, it has a pic32, lots of io, uarts, etc, more
adanced than the arduino and tougher to learn.

I started with the basic stamp but quickly outgrew it when people on forums
said it wasn't fast enough to do the things I was asking questions about. I
was quickly looking elsewhere.
I,d say ride the arduino mega around for a while, their cheap and can do
lots of fun stuff. That all depends on your current skill level also.

Mark

Vaclav,

You probably will not find any company that will provide MORE help than
Parallax, they are truly devoted to the concept of customer service. I am
not sure where you got the impression that they rely on their users to
support their products as nothing could be further from the truth. Now,
having said all that, the Basic STAMP is kind of pricey. It is limited and
it does run on a form of Basic.

You might want to look at the Arduino processors.

James "Jim" M. Geidl, K6JMG

No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Hal,
Up front, so there is no misunderstanding.
I do not want to discourage you from helping your buddy or sound like a wise guy.

If factory repaired (!) it - it should be working.

If not, return it for repair unless your desire is to take it apart come hell or high water.

If you take the plastic goo out of it you may damage it.
Been there, done that. It is a messy job.
Even when you get the goo out, just "looking at it" will not solve anything.
I am going to take wild guess 鈥� can you identify any electronic component?
Can you "work" on the board without schematic?

Do whatever you want, I am sure you will, but I see it as lost cause.

Cheers Vaclav

Thanks guys,
just for clarification - I was not looking for "does everything including coffee and donuts" hardware. I may be an exception but I believe one needs to "design" the application with general idea about the processor and than look for the optimal hardware to accomplish the task.

As far as Basic Stamp I believe it is good starting point to learn about the firmware solutions to simple projects. But I am not too fond of vendor's reliance on users to answer newcomers questions and solve problems. On few occasions I also noticed users "complaining" about the price of the product, especially when it has been around for few years by now.
I never used or know much about the Propeller chip" , but I think the development software is Parallax proprietary and that to me would be a major deterrent for using it. I think the main "selling " point is Propeller's multicore CPU. (Please correct me if I am off base here.)

As an addendum 鈥� it would be nice to include some comments on software.

Let's face it 鈥� if I buy $50 worth of hardware only to find out that I get 30 days free usage of castrated IDE running only on Windows currently in beta test 鈥� it is is no bargain for me as a hobbyist.

Cheers
Vaclav

PS Got to go and get some sleep, volunteering in Houston marathon tomorrow at 0400 ( that' s AM ) !

Hey Guys,

A buddy ask me to help him with his control board for his Minn Kota E-Drive tolling motor. Problem is the board is mounted to an aluminum tray and the tray is filled with a soft black plastic. He says the factory has repaired this board. Does anyone know how to safely remove this plastic so that we can get a look at the board.

Hal

Flavour of the month for me at the momment in MCUs is the PIC 18F4550
35 I/O pins
USB
SPI
I2C
2.0V to 5.5V
4 timers
3 interrupts
PWM
Enhanced Usart
13 A/D channels
Architecture optimised for C compiler

Pretty much everything in one chip
Can get it in dip package so shaky hands like mine dont have trouble soldering

Reasonable price
Couldnt ask for more

Don

the statement clean enough to power an AM radio is an attempt at defining how
clean the output should be. It seems all that I have looked at can benefit from
better shielding and filtering.
Maybe a class D amp off the battery pack.
sort of like this tech




pretty cheap too for what it does






________________________________
From: rtstofer <rstofer@...>
To: Electronics_101@...
Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 10:57:37 AM
Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: inverter




--- In Electronics_101@..., Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@...> wrote:

would like to get a true sine wave inverter 1.5 - 2 kw that is clean enough to

power AM radio
been reading on web but haven't found a total solution
any recommendations?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A battery powered radio will be a lot cheaper.

There are some inverters that claim to be pure sine wave here:


About $650 ought to cover it for a 2 kW unit. Be aware that many inverters
won't handle high inrush loads.

Google for 'true sine wave inverter'.

Richard




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Electronics_101@..., "vaclav_sal" <vaclav_sal@...> wrote:

I do not want to highjack another thread , but would like to hear some group comments on selection of microcontrollers for projects.
After reading some comments here I feel it is a time to ditch my controller and go for something new.
Basically my old controller was a stand alone circuitry with flaky serial interface and programmed in flavor of Basic. I have been looking to add USB 鈥瀊reakout鈥� circuit but now I realize that there are devices on market with USB and other interfaces build in , can be programmed in C and with plenty of memory.
However, in past I have been unlucky to pick a device which did not became popular ( 3 varactor diodes in one IC, single (!) bit microcontroller etc.) and were soon out of production.

I am seeking group opinions on what microcontroller works for you and which one did not.

Vaclav

PS I am not sure if we can avoid 鈥瀙lugs" by not naming vendors and still have reasonably accurate discussion here.

I too have been working with in Basic (PIC) but am looking for more capabilities for audio and video.
I am getting started with the NXP LPC1768(Cortex-M3) which is an ARM 32 bit 100MHz with the development board found at:

I am getting starting with the Rowley Crossworks IDE at:


Norm

Just name the vendors.

I'm curious to see how this shakes out.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Electronics_101@..., "vaclav_sal" <vaclav_sal@...> wrote:

I do not want to highjack another thread , but would like to hear some group comments on selection of microcontrollers for projects.
After reading some comments here I feel it is a time to ditch my controller and go for something new.
Basically my old controller was a stand alone circuitry with flaky serial interface and programmed in flavor of Basic. I have been looking to add USB 鈥瀊reakout鈥� circuit but now I realize that there are devices on market with USB and other interfaces build in , can be programmed in C and with plenty of memory.
However, in past I have been unlucky to pick a device which did not became popular ( 3 varactor diodes in one IC, single (!) bit microcontroller etc.) and were soon out of production.

I am seeking group opinions on what microcontroller works for you and which one did not.

Vaclav

PS I am not sure if we can avoid 鈥瀙lugs" by not naming vendors and still have reasonably accurate discussion here.

We have had a couple of threads on this very topic over the last couple of months.

Bottom line: there is no perfect uC; that's why there are hundreds of variants. It really comes down to: what you want to do, where you're starting from (skillset), what tools you want to use, what platform you use for development, physical restraints (size, package), etc.

I like Atmel AVRs for midrange stuff but I also use Microchip PICs and I particularly like the 16F88. It's a lot like Barbie; it has everything.

I also like the ARM7s for higher speeds and larger applications but I think highly of the Arduino (primarily because of the libraries and reduced startup effort) and the mbed where everything is done via a web browser.

I am not totally in love with the Parallax Stamp but it has more documentation and sample hobby-level projects than all the other devices combined (a wild guess on my part).

It will come down to seeing what is available (try ) and reading a lot of datasheets or user manuals.

Servo Magazine and Nuts and Volts Magazine have articles every month on one device or another. The February 2011 edition of Nuts and Volts is beginning a series with a 32 bit experimenter board. It is based on the PIC32MX695F12H, a modest 64 pin device. Following along might be a good idea.

The same edition of Servo magazine is working on part 6 of an Arudino robotics project.

Arduino is a nice platform as is mbed with mbed having the edge in terms of speed and capacity while Arduino has the edge for completed projects.

I haven't even touched on the offerings from ST or TI as they are similar to the NXP chips (ARM7) that I play around with. I use the LPC2106 and LPC2148 although both are showing their age. There are many other possibilities.

The number of alternatives makes declaring a 'best' chip impossible. It really comes down to the application requirements and the skillset.

Richard