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FWIW, wire in a conventional harness weighs a LOT, and connections are common sources of failure. Good connectors cost a lot of money; good connectors to carry significant current cost more.

So - distributing power to all peripherals with as few wires as possible saves weight and increases reliability.
And - distributing information about what to do with that power over light-weight shared communications busses increases reliability.
And - semiconductor controllers at peripherals can be dirt cheap, report if they have a problem, and changed out easily if they fail.

Win on weight; win on reliability; win on serviceability.
No, they can't be readily serviced by backyard mechanics, but failure rates are far lower now than they used to be; I'll take it.

Donald.

On Monday 16 December 2024 10:05:14 am SheldonD via groups.io wrote:

I am NOT opposed to CAN, LIN, single ended or differential serial, etc. It's just a progression of technology.

Yeah, and it keeps on progressing, at an ever-accelerating pace...

Did you know there are CAN lightbulbs?

No, I didn't know that.

Yup. No switches. Switching element is in emitter itself. Sounds like a lot of overkill.

Yeah it does.

But is it? Common database to headlights. Turn lights on, turn lights off. Functions that seem to be easier with a switch or relay. Bulb can report when emitter is burned out. That requires sense leads between bulb circuit and an ecu somewhere, either detecting voltage drop, current flow, or passing a sense current. At least 1 more wire needed. 3 wires needed now.

And a lot of the way things are going seems to involve getting rid of as many wires as possible. Because we can do digital stuff! :-) I did a pretty good job of burning out the wiring harness in a 1970 Dodge Dart, and boy was that fun to deal with. We got a mostly good harness from a junkyard (try finding that these days for something of that vintage) and then had to unwrap several miles of electrical tape from both of them and combine them to make one good harness. Both under the hood and under the dash.

I foresee bulbs being able to report degradation, color temperature, brightness (computed) functionality if not already there.

Then there's the degradation of that stupid choice of plastic that they're using for headlight assemblies these days. I've already had to deal with that more than once.

But, back to basics. For Headlights, 2 switches needed (on/off local, on/off high, perhaps with interlock). Parking / Marker lights. Another switch. Turn signals need a switch. Brake lights need a switch, as do dome lights, fog lights, bed / trunk lights.

8 switches, and associated wiring, to provide basic lighting control. Or 1 database.

Data bus?

What I found most irritating, at least on my Yukon, is inability to interact with databus. GM has held their secrets closely compared to Ford. You can't interface with GM without a Tech2 at a minimum. Ford needs a HSCAN / MSCAN adapter and 3rd party software (Forscan). Both inexpensive. Mopar provides upfitter CAN interface in several of their vehicles that is available direct or buffered. Hmm, maybe that would be Mercedes as I am referring to Sprinter vans made / badged by Mercedes, Dodge, and Freightliner. And better, their requirements to interface, what shouldn't be touched, etc are published.

Got a link for that handy? Or suggest a search term.

Did you know there are CAN switches?

Nope, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Yup. Press a switch, and datastream is generated addressing intended device or sending command / request to centralized controller. Similar with relays.

Member of my extended family had an old Mercedes sedan. 5 cylinder diesel.

I remember encountering a similar engine, might've been in a VW, and it was a real pig to start. Needed a pretty good-sized battery, that one did.

Windows, door locks were not digital. They weren't even electric, but still powered. How? Vacuum. Vacuum operated door locks and windows. Very thankful not to have to maintain THAT.

Right. I knew a guy who specialiized in "foreign" stuff, and once in a while I'd drop by his garage and he'd show me some of the really odd ways that some makers had of doing things. Like vacuum-operated popup headlights in something or other, for one example.

If tools were more common to layperson (being PC there ;) ), I think there would be a much difference attitude towards CAN technology and derivatives as well as predecessors.

Yeah, the proprietary and closed-off attitude by some mfrs. gets a little old...

Perhaps I am unique. I have the idea that if I own something, I should have complete control over it.

Agreed!

My phones are rooted.

Oh? Tell me more, as I'd like to pursue that at some point.

I use Linux (not very well).

I've run nothing but since 1999. I started out with Slackware, which I'm currently running on my server and in this virtual machine to do my emailing with. The host system is Debian, just because of handling dependency stuff. My lady had a hard drive fail some time back and when I stuck a new one in her machine I handed her an Ubuntu disk and suggested she try that out. That got installed and went fine for a good long time. Hardware was replaced, and not optimal, and not all that long ago a machine showed up that met her requirements as to size etc. and it came with Linux Mint installed, and she's now happy with that. We've been a microshit-free zone for years now.

My F150 had several features added, others turned off because I desired.

Telll me more?

Heck, I am learning about IoT zigbee and other home mesh networks in relation to doir locks, cameras, lighting control. Starting to lesve behind X10 ( heavily invested).

Never got into that stuff yet, but have studied it some. Some people way too overcomplicate it. I'd like to get some cameras here, and I have this nice 24-port router that'll do POE to run them into, I just have to find some that are reasonably priced. What I'm running into is stoopid stuff that uses wifi, but if I've gotta run a wire anyway for power, I might as well run an ethernet cable and deal with things that way...

Bought Yukon because can do same thing albeit with Tech2. Except that mine was 3 months too new, and Tech2 is very limited. Now would have to pay $49/3 days subscription.

What's that Tech2 stuff?

Didn't know about CAN requirement. Makes sense as vehicles now have Blackbox ability and cameras for traffic interaction.

It's crazy the amount of stuff they're cramming in there...

Time marches on.

Indeed. And trying to keep up gets to be more and more fun the older we get, too. :-)

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

Actually, most manufacturers will have a version or another.

I believe the idea was started when RV manufacturers started using roling chassis vs custom frames. That was back in late 60s.

Or could have become routine when I am enforcement became irritated enough when converting passenger vehicles.

Now, near every chassis, cars included, that has room for extra 'stuff' has something available that aftermarket uses. Ford & GM are extensive, as is Mopar, for van and pickup.

~SD

On Monday 16 December 2024 09:54:08 am Dan Kahn via groups.io wrote:

?Just yesterday my 4 year old grandson and I were playing with my scope. He put his finger on the probe end and I adjusted the sweep and amplitude to get a presentable display. The 60 Hz pickup was horrible.

I remember doing that ages ago, probably around the time I got one of my first scopes. What are you seeing? I know that what I saw wasn't even close to a sine wave...

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

On Sunday 15 December 2024 07:41:04 pm SheldonD via groups.io wrote:

Use the upfitter manuals for year and model type of donor,

Are those only available for GM? We don't have any of those around here...

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

On Sunday 15 December 2024 07:19:52 pm wn4isx via groups.io wrote:

OK upfront I'm an analog guy. I don't hate digital, far from it, but I prefer to solve my design problems with analog solutions. I have more computers then common sense, I can and do write code, bad code, overly complex code, but still code that works. I program in Ada [ick]

Ditto on the ick. :-)

or GW-Basic and compile it with a 198? MS compiler. I've avoided Raspberry, Ardunio, PIC, PIC-AXE etc because I have enough other problems.

I too avoided a lot of that stuff, and thought about things like the z80 and 6502, which I have bunches of. But having to lash up several chips and burn an EPROM kind of put me off of doing anything with those parts. I did get into arduino not all that long ago (the name put me off for some reason) and they can be a lot of fun. Got a Pi4 not too long ago, a "Canakit" that came with an enclosure, touch screen (too damn small at around 4"), real keyboard and mouse. I'm thinking that if I can get the right HDMI cable I can use that thing to view YT videos on the TV here. Got some ESP8266 and ESP32 modules, too, and the capability to program them is included now in my arduino IDE. That's a dual-core processor with built-in bluetooth and wifi, a very capable little board, and for not very much money at all. I bought five of them to play with.

Although I did use some premade code to burn PICs to produce 60Hz, 440Hz, 1PPs real time and sidereal, and other useful frequencies from a 10MHz GPS disciplined oscillator. [I'd love to have premade PIC code for "D" and "C".]

I see PIC stuff used a lot in Nuts&Volts articles, but have avoided them for the most part because I'd need to buy some specialized stuff to be able to deal with them, and it's one mfr.

I understand RS-232 in and out, Ethernet from AX.25 (ham packet radio.)

Heh. As do I, and there's a skill that I don't remember the last time I used it. Weird handshaking configurations, null modem cables, and all that fun stuff.

However I'm only aware of in car data networks because I had to deal with one. I learned enough about CAN to know I needed specialized, expensive, test gear to begin to unravel the CAN problems in our Volvo so I lobotomized it by replacing most functions with local relay control.

I suspect that equipment is probably more widely available now than it used to be, and probably a whole heck of a lot cheaper. Not that I'm inclined to go there...

Although I do have this one gizmo that might prove useful. It calls itself a "logic analyzer" and has a 10-pin header on one side, up to 8 channels of input, a clock line, and a ground connection. USB on the other side to connect it to your computer, where a program called "pulseview" will show you what's going on. You can select one out of a whole mes of different protocols, and it decodes things for you I think I paid under $10 for the thing. Looking, yeah, CAN is in there along with about 15 other protocols. Check out sigrok.org for more info on this.

I can look at the data streams with an oscilloscope but it might as well be High Martian.

Right.

Until Goey's request for the pin out of a radio, I'd not looked into CAN since lobotomizing our Volvo.

Looking at that document linked in here recently, I was surprised at how over-complicated that stuff had been getting. And it surprises me that it works as well as it does. We were talking about getting another vehicle not too long ago, and my inclination is to move towards something older that would have a whole lot less of this gadgetry in it. We haven't moved forward with that and I'm not sure when we will, at this point. It's easier to just keep things going with what we've got.

I was amazed to learn our Echo didn't have CAN. I assumed it did and prayed it would never give trouble. [Sometimes you luck out!] Though the current sensor in the battery lead creates some issues I'd prefer to avoid.

Sensor in the battery lead? What's that all about? What year is that vehicle?

Today I learned there is also a simpler car data network, LIN, that GM [and others] uses for controlling the radio et al in some models.

Most cars made after 2003 will have CAN and, by federal law, all new cars and light trucks made after 2008 sold in the US must have CAN.

By federal law? I wonder what that's all about. I know that after a certain point (I think it's 2016 and later) backup cameras are mandatory. Hell, I don't see a need for one, I can turn around and look if I have to.

I suggest anyone interested in CAN and LIN start with Wiki then dig as deep as they need.

CAN/LIN will probably be part of your future.

Not if I can help it!

We were so "lucky" with our Volvo as they were an early adopter of CAN.

I've learned some manufacturers require their "in car entertainment systems" receive authorization from the main computer before they will turn on. [Such joy.]

Oh, there's lots of crazy stuff going on in cars these days. I heard a while back that replacing any one of a number of different modules, say with one from a junkyard, will result in the car's odometer reading being taken from whichever module has the highest number! And you can't do anything about it. I guess that's to incentivize buying a new module from a dealer, but really!

I see how a cousin of my wife makes a comfortable living by rebuilding pre 1990 cars, his wife does the detail work (she can even replace the headliner!!!!). I can see why any sane person would want a pre-CAN car because it requires specialized equipment and knowledge to trouble shoot them. Imagine all the wiring interconnects in a modern car....now imagine trouble shooting them.

That document that was linked in here details a lot of that stuff. It's crazy.

CAN is being used for all sorts of non-automotive applications, the list is growing and bewildering.

I suspect serious electronic hobbyists will have to deal with CAN/LIN sooner then later.

I don't know about that.

I've given a lot of thought about what level of tech I'm comfortable with. Lots of people seem to think that you have to deal with surface-mount parts, ferinstance. "Oh, it's not that big of a deal once you get used to handlng those teeny little parts..." Nope, I ain't going there. Through-hole is where it's at as far as I'm concerned, and if I need the functionality of something that's only available in surface mount, I'll buy a little module that'll give me pins to connect to...

This makes it look sooo simple...

Not bad. Though I see two issues with this stuff. One is that you really do need the right documentation for the vehicle in question. It took me a while, but I eventually got a hold of a shop manual for our 2013 Dodge Journey. That pdf is over 10,000 pages! I've looked at it some but haven't really gotten too far with it. The other thing is where he says to disconnect the battery. Now that used to be a fairly trivial thing to do, but in this vehicle you don't see the battery under the hood. No, to get at it you need to remove the driver's side front wheel and then remove an access panel! The battery did go bad in there and that was one of those "pay somebody else to deal with it" deals. I suppose that the battery could be disconnected by undoing one of the cables under the hood, but I haven't hit the part of the manual that details which one yet.

That log cabin on 20 acres is looking more attractive every day.......

Heh. I hear ya! But we're pretty far out in the boonies already, water from a well and heating with a wood stove and such. I really don't think I'd care to go a whole lot further down that path...

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

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On Sunday 15 December 2024 06:05:21 pm wn4isx via groups.io wrote:

Was the antenna in the windshield or motorized?

Those in the windshield antennas are really poor performers. Several years ago I was able to get a simple car antenna from my local electronics wholesaler, cost around $6-7 or so. I'd tell people that they had to get their mechanic to drill the hole in the fender and route that wire, and I'd plug it in and they'd get much better reception.

These days both of my vehicles have those really short (under 6"?) antennas mounted on the roof near the rear of the vehicle. They work...


--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

On Sunday 15 December 2024 03:12:22 pm wn4isx via groups.io wrote:

I was given some LED replacements for 4 foot florescents. They were defective from the factory, I carefully disassembled them, removed the stock SMPS, added a simple full capacitor feeding a wave bridge to drive the LEDs. I picked a capacitor whose capacitive reactance made the LEDs bright enough but they didn't get warm. 4 of them are roughly equal to 2 real florescents with no EMI. I bypassed all 4 diodes with low value caps.

Yea a lot of trouble but I was bored and my mobility was somewhat limited this summer.

I looked at those, briefly. IIRC you had to rewire the fixture to remove the ballast from the circuit. Those fixtures I mentioned came with bulbs that were rather mediocre, so I went shopping and saw some "high output" bulbs and ended up getting those, and that's what's in the fixtures now. Those LED replacements were around $20/bulb at the time, which struck me as a bit much. In the meantime I had picked up a 2-pack of reflector style bulbs to replace an outside light where I used to live, and one of those over my current work table gives plenty of light in there.

I've been fairly impressed with a lot of what I'm seeing out there using LEDs, not so much the regular light bulb styles but stuff that was designed for LEDs to start with. I bought a 10-pack of 10W LEDs a while back, and built a few lamps, using some little modules with 3 trimpots on them. I think that they were originally intended for battery charging, as one of those trimmers is irrelevant to my use. One is installed over my lady's desk, to replace the small incandescent fixture after she burned her arm on it, one is over my desk, and one over my radio gear. The two trimpots set the voltage and current. The LEDs I got are 3 chains of 3 in series (other ones put 'em all in series) so I set the voltage for around 10V maximum, and then set the max current to something like 300mA, meaning they're dissipating about 3W. Which gives plenty of light, and being 10W parts, they oughta last a good long time.

For some reason when I plug a small wall wart in for my desk light it pulsates several times before it settles down. So the one I'm using is an older one, with a regular transformer and bridge rectifier. Hers works fine on a switcher. I never did investigate why it did that, probably something to do with the design of the particular switcher I was trying to use. Having several large boxes of wall warts, I have plenty to choose from.

I'd like to come up with some simple circuit that would limit the output voltage and more importantly the current to drive these LEDs with, since I still have a bunch of them around...

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

I am NOT opposed to CAN, LIN, single ended or differential serial, etc. It's just a progression of technology.

Did you know there are CAN lightbulbs? Yup. No switches. Switching element is in emitter itself. Sounds like a lot of overkill. But is it? Common database to headlights. Turn lights on, turn lights off. Functions that seem to be easier with a switch or relay. Bulb can report when emitter is burned out. That requires sense leads between bulb circuit and an ecu somewhere, either detecting voltage drop, current flow, or passing a sense current. At least 1 more wire needed. 3 wires needed now. I foresee bulbs being able to report degradation, color temperature, brightness (computed) functionality if not already there. But, back to basics. For Headlights, 2 switches needed (on/off local, on/off high, perhaps with interlock). Parking / Marker lights. Another switch. Turn signals need a switch. Brake lights need a switch, as do dome lights, fog lights, bed / trunk lights.

8 switches, and associated wiring, to provide basic lighting control. Or 1 database.

What I found most irritating, at least on my Yukon, is inability to interact with databus. GM has held their secrets closely compared to Ford. You can't interface with GM without a Tech2 at a minimum. Ford needs a HSCAN / MSCAN adapter and 3rd party software (Forscan). Both inexpensive. Mopar provides upfitter CAN interface in several of their vehicles that is available direct or buffered. Hmm, maybe that would be Mercedes as I am referring to Sprinter vans made / badged by Mercedes, Dodge, and Freightliner. And better, their requirements to interface, what shouldn't be touched, etc are published.

Did you know there are CAN switches? Yup. Press a switch, and datastream is generated addressing intended device or sending command / request to centralized controller. Similar with relays.

Member of my extended family had an old Mercedes sedan. 5 cylinder diesel. Windows, door locks were not digital. They weren't even electric, but still powered. How? Vacuum. Vacuum operated door locks and windows. Very thankful not to have to maintain THAT.

If tools were more common to layperson (being PC there ;) ), I think there would be a much difference attitude towards CAN technology and derivatives as well as predecessors.

Perhaps I am unique. I have the idea that if I own something, I should have complete control over it. My phones are rooted. I use Linux (not very well). My F150 had several features added, others turned off because I desired. Heck, I am learning about IoT zigbee and other home mesh networks in relation to doir locks, cameras, lighting control. Starting to lesve behind X10 ( heavily invested).

Bought Yukon because can do same thing albeit with Tech2. Except that mine was 3 months too new, and Tech2 is very limited. Now would have to pay $49/3 days subscription.

Didn't know about CAN requirement. Makes sense as vehicles now have Blackbox ability and cameras for traffic interaction.

Time marches on.

~SD

It was more of an example where to find additional information. As you have "12 Delco/GM Auto Radio", it is perfectly understandable that people are going to search for radios that came out of General Motors vehicles (auto radio).

Not happy with CAN bus discussion? I CAN appreciate that, so will change title of this post to reflect what you are seeking / desire.

You specify that only thing that matters is finding diagram for "DELCO PN 15766185". Challenge accepted. I will do everything for you, you will merely have to click on the links, maybe copy/Paste to follow along.

Duckduckgo.com -> search terms "Used DELCO 15766185 Radio"
And I get:


This is important because it lists a donor vehicle, and the RPO:
"OEM Radio Opt Umr FROM 03 2003 CHEVY SILVERADO 15766185"
2003 Chevy Pickup, RPO code is UMR

Seller is a salvage yard. They are experts on interchange. In Full Description, there are at least 2 vehicles that have same RPO code. Again, that is "UMR" in case you missed it.

Interchange vehicles are 2012 GMC Canyon and 2012 Chevrolet Colorado. The both use UMR, other vehicles use UM7, and are typically older models. Let's run with the 12s (see what I did there?).

Duckduckgo.com -> search terms "2012 Canyon UMR radio diagram" and found somebody in same situation, asking for. "Need a stock radio wiring diagram. Please help!" located at

A bit down the page, Shawn5800 kindly posts a schematic of the radio connector located at
But you want a pinout, and understandably so, since you were very specific in your OP title / subject.

At bottom of the thread, somebody else was looking for a 2012 Wiring Diagram. Since was a subject in audio portion of Colorado / Canyon website, I followed it. On that thread, there is a link " "

Thinking it held some desirable nuggets of information, I followed it just to find its a dead link. But, I CAN try and resurrect it at archive.org:
archive.org -> Search Terms " "
and chose a date that corresponded with peak traffic.

That led me to: but nothing available, missing Dara or not ceawled.

Re-searched again:
Duckduckgo.com -> Search terms "DELCO PN 15766185 pin out"
and hit first result " "

And lo & behold, pin out for 24 pin radio connector AND for the 12pin connector as well. BONUS!

To keep going, I searched Amazon for OEM Radio Harnesses (not posting link as may contain personal information and is around 400 characters long). Saw Metra in results, remembered using them in past. Eventually drilled down to the Metra 70-2006 harness. Not available, and they don't know when will be... But I have part number. Metra 70-2006.

Duckduckgo.com -> Metra 70-2006 manual
Lo and Behold, I found the manual @ Crutchfield!


That's odd. There are some differences between it, TechnMagazin. But, there are some differences. Probably features and stuff, I don't know. Maybe different country. Something for you to figure out. Maybe it's the difference between UMR and UM7.

Back to what I am supposed to be working on: what caused the cpu in a German plc on a krv traction container to blow out, before I risk blowing the replacement. Looks like water intrusion but have to.... sorry. Forgot this thread was all about "Pin Out Required for 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio Without Mentioning ANYTHING ELSE!!! And do it for me ( Please?)".

15min break is over, back to work. (Drops the mic)

~SD

Sorry if my response was less then helpful, the "URT, burn in" on the label suggests the radio has network capabilities.

?

I requested year, make, model because it is often possible to track pinout information that way much easier then with an in house part number.

?

The Delco part number didn't show up in any net search I attempted, just like with my Toyota part number.

?

The part number on my Echo's radio is apparently Toyota's in house part number number used for inventory tracking and I never could find any information using that number, however knowing the year, make and model returned several accurate wiring diagrams with the available options, it was then easy to pick the wiring diagram that applies to my radio and hence the type radio and pinouts.

?

I wish you the best of luck and will refrain from responding to anymore of your requests for information to save you the angst of logical and lateral thinking.

?

BTW URT almost certainly is short for UART. I'll leave researching what a UART is up to you.

?

Oh, you can get an approximate age by opening the radio and reading the date code off the integrated circuits. I also leave that bit of research up to you. As an educated guess, I'd say over 90% of ICs have the date code in a standard format, an IC date code gives you the earliest possible date of manufacture. The date codes of several ICs should narrow the possible DOM to a year or so.

?

Oh, DOM is trade slang for Date Of Manufacture.

?

Again, good luck and sorry for wasting your time.

?

?