Joe, while over at DIY CNC be sure you let Bellendo know that you are
going into that business - he can be a really big help to you.

Chris


--- In Electronics_101@..., <jamodeo1@...> wrote:

Sorry if this is to far off topics. I just needed a work envelope to

begin planning. I'll go to DIY CNC for more info.

Thanks for the lead.
Joe

开云体育

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 04:13 pm, joe amodeo wrote:

I'm considering building a gantry style PCB drilling machine.

What x y z work envlope is required?

To do what? This is a *very* big subject...

I envision selling the machine with steppers mounted, no computer or OS.

No driver cards?

I realize thats not much info to go on, but can you guesstimate what
a rigid, aluminum, ballscrew driven machine might sell for?

Nope.

I also don't see what this has to do with electronics, since you are saying
that you're not including any.

I subscribe to something over 130 different yahoo "groups" (mailing lists) and
a whole bunch of those have to do with various electronic subjects, but even
more of them have to do with CNC and mechanical subjects, at least half
again as many as the former group. You might try DIY-CNC for starters,
that's a pretty good bunch of folks in there.

BTW, I'm considering building such a machine myself, but to do both
mechanical board etching and drilling. I've been into the idea for quite
some time now and for a number of reasons I haven't gotten started on it yet.
For my uses I'm looking at a work area of about a square foot or so.

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 04:07 pm, rtstofer wrote:

Roy,

I tried to respond to your email but it bounced.

Oops. That may have been my sometimes-overly-agressive spam filters...

Got it.

The CD will go out today. Good thing we skipped the downloads, it is just
about 700 MB.

A bit much for me at this point. :-)

There are two versions of GCC. At the moment I recommand 3.4.3

I've heard of folks having the occasional bit of trouble with later versions.
Looks like I have 3.2.3 installed on this box.

You will probably need to build the tool chain as root because the
files wind up in /usr/local

Not a problem.

After the toolchain is built, you can move to the testproject
directory and type 'make clean all' and the files should be rebuilt.

Ok.

I installed Eclipse for a test but it wasn't very satisfactory because
the system already had Eclipse. If you have a problem with Eclipse at
load time, it probably can't find a satisfactory version of the java
run-time. You will need to download the JRE (Java Runtime
Environment) from www.sun.com.

Got one of those recently, too. For a package called "multivalent" (which
may be of some interest as it's supposed to let you do things with pdf
files :-).

I wasn't able to install the CDT plug-in because it was also installed. I
installed Eclipse in /opt/eclipse (as root) and create a link in /usr/local
/bin as:

ln -s /opt/eclipse/eclipse.sh /usr/local/bin

Apparently I used Eclipse as root to download the CDT via
Help->Software Updates from the IDE.

That's about it. If you have any questions, I'll be around.

Ok...

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 01:48 pm, rtstofer wrote:

There is also a device configuration file 'encoderconf.h' which sets
up the maximum number of encoders and pin configuration. It does not
do this based on device selection, the user has to help a little.

Is that something fairly general also or is it more specific to
these chips?

Very device specific because it deals with interrupt signals and
device pins.

Ah, okay, then I'm just as glad I didn't bother with it. Not much point
until I get into the use of those chips...

<...>

How much hardware does it take to get started with these parts? And
what about getting a handle on the parts themselves? One of the problems
I perceived with the PIC stuff was that there were so darn many of
them out there, and I have no clue about the differences among them...

That is a problem with AVRs as well. They come in all sizes with differing
internal gadgets.

Seems typical these days.

So, look at the Olimex development board

$15.95, a chip

$8.28, a programming dongle

$11.95 and a wall wart

$3.95. You are ready to go at a pretty high level for $40 (plus
shipping).

Not bad. But I can't invest in that stuff at this point in time.

The device itself has 32k of code space, 2k of SRAM, 1k of EEPROM and
just about every possible gadget (I2C, SPI, USART, 3 Timers, Analog
Comparator, 8 channel A/D converter plus general IO ports if the
gadgets aren't using the pins).

The number of pins seems to be a problem with a lot of that sort of thing.
Even back to the early microcontrollers...

The chip can also be run at 16MHz with a crystal/ceramic resonator and
will execute about 16 million instructions per second - this is very
fast. In my opinion about 5 times the speed of an equivalent
mid-range PIC (say 16F877) and speed is always a good thing.

Yup!

It's no secret that I prefer the ATmega128 primarily because it has
more IO and 2 USARTs. There are a lot of applications where the '128
would sit between a PC and some kind of serial gadget such as a 32
channel servo controller. Having dual USARTs is a plus. But, the 64
pin flat pack is a PITA.

I'm *not* ready to go there, not any time soon, for sure.

As to the development board, I would install a bunch of female headers
and use prototype jumpers to get the signals over onto a standard
prototype board. Soldering stuff to the Olimex board kind of limits
its' future use. But, who knows?

Sounds like a good approach to me.

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

开云体育

Say, on PCB drilling machines. I'm pretty much a newbie at this
stuff, but I am getting geared up to have the capibility to produce
my own electronic boards from scratch. I share your understanding
that the hole drilling part is a significant part of this
prototyping thing.

Last night while searching for bench drill presses that accept a
Demeral drill motor, my search was "Demeral Bench Drill Presses", I
couldn't find the link for the page address, but I found a site
selling a gantry style PCB drilling machine that communicates with
popular software. It had several versions. a Stepper version and a
couple others. cost was around 4000$ US for the stepper version.

Then I surfed to a forem that had a lenghthy discussion about
building
these from scratch. This discussion group is currently cleared many
of the design hurdles, have dones some construction on a device and
are working on an open source software. Their mission, as I
understood it was to cooperatively engineer both hardware and
software for a device nuckleheads like myself can build, download
this software and achieve drilling narvona.

I will search for this link, I thought I saved it.

I've also purchsed a c84 epson ink jet printer on e-bay and I'm
waiting for more info on the great ink jet break through.



--- In Electronics_101@..., "joe amodeo" <jamodeo1@...>
wrote:

I'm considering building a gantry style PCB drilling machine.
I envision selling the machine with steppers mounted, no computer

or
OS.

Thanks for any input.

Joe

--- Tom <electrictom74@...> wrote:

Does anybody know of any cheap or low cost circuit
design software
like Electronics Workbench or simular. I would like
to get back into
electronics design circuits and such see what I have
missed the last
ten years. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Tom

For circuit simulation try SwitcherCad (aka
LTSpice)from . Despite the name
it's a universal SPICE package with a GUI. The price
is very good (0.00 in currency of your choice)!

For PCBs I'm trying out kicad, a bit jobby ATM, but
they seem to be getting there and the result looks
good. Another freeware.

Both have yahoo user groups.

- YD.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

Personally, I would want to have at least 12"x12" with only 1" vertical
movement.

As for cost of machining equipment, Chris is the expert in that line.

I'm making my own machine to cut plastics and wood, 15"x15" by 4-6".

Robert
:)

Size? Make them whatever size you desire. I believe you will find
that most of the PCBs are smaller than 8" x 10".

Selling price - depends on who you are selling it to and how well you
can make the machines and market them.

If you are selling to hobbiests, it better be cheap because most folks
can build their own for pretty darn cheap. If you are selling to the
corporate world, you better have a BIG marketing budget and you better
be prepared to support the machine really good.

You might want to try some internet searches for such machines.
Perhaps you can do some comparitive pricing that way.

Good luck

Chris





--- In Electronics_101@..., "joe amodeo" <jamodeo1@...>
wrote:

I'm considering building a gantry style PCB drilling machine.

What x y z work envlope is required?

I envision selling the machine with steppers mounted, no computer or

OS.

I realize thats not much info to go on, but can you guesstimate what
a rigid, aluminum, ballscrew driven machine might sell for?

Thanks for any input.

Joe

--- In Electronics_101@..., "rtstofer" <rstofer@...> wrote:

Roy,

I tried to respond to your email but it bounced. The CD will go out
today. Good thing we skipped the downloads, it is just about 700 MB.

There are two versions of GCC. At the moment I recommand 3.4.3

You will probably need to build the tool chain as root because the
files wind up in /usr/local

After the toolchain is built, you can move to the testproject
directory and type 'make clean all' and the files should be rebuilt.

I installed Eclipse for a test but it wasn't very satisfactory because
the system already had Eclipse. If you have a problem with Eclipse at
load time, it probably can't find a satisfactory version of the java
run-time. You will need to download the JRE (Java Runtime
Environment) from www.sun.com. I wasn't able to install the CDT
plug-in because it was also installed. I installed Eclipse in
/opt/eclipse (as root) and create a link in /usr/local/bin as:

ln -s /opt/eclipse/eclipse.sh /usr/local/bin

Apparently I used Eclipse as root to download the CDT via
Help->Software Updates from the IDE.

That's about it. If you have any questions, I'll be around.

Richard

And, I included a couple of versions of the famous (over on the LPC
group) ARM Tutorial. Primarily because it documents how to install
Eclipse and integrate tools like AVRDude (although the example will
use an LPC programmer).

Richard

I'm considering building a gantry style PCB drilling machine.

What x y z work envlope is required?

I envision selling the machine with steppers mounted, no computer or OS.

I realize thats not much info to go on, but can you guesstimate what
a rigid, aluminum, ballscrew driven machine might sell for?

Thanks for any input.

Joe

Roy,

I tried to respond to your email but it bounced. The CD will go out
today. Good thing we skipped the downloads, it is just about 700 MB.

There are two versions of GCC. At the moment I recommand 3.4.3

You will probably need to build the tool chain as root because the
files wind up in /usr/local

After the toolchain is built, you can move to the testproject
directory and type 'make clean all' and the files should be rebuilt.

I installed Eclipse for a test but it wasn't very satisfactory because
the system already had Eclipse. If you have a problem with Eclipse at
load time, it probably can't find a satisfactory version of the java
run-time. You will need to download the JRE (Java Runtime
Environment) from www.sun.com. I wasn't able to install the CDT
plug-in because it was also installed. I installed Eclipse in
/opt/eclipse (as root) and create a link in /usr/local/bin as:

ln -s /opt/eclipse/eclipse.sh /usr/local/bin

Apparently I used Eclipse as root to download the CDT via
Help->Software Updates from the IDE.

That's about it. If you have any questions, I'll be around.

Richard

--- In Electronics_101@..., "Roy J. Tellason"
<rtellason@...> wrote:

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 10:09 am, rtstofer wrote:

Rather than downloading the whole mess, which would be a bit slow
on dialup, I went to the online html documentation link, and

selected

encoder.c and encoder.h and downloaded the documentation and

source pages

for both of those. I hope that's what you were referring to.

:-) The

encoder.h source in particular has a nice explanation in there

showing

waveforms and such, and explains just how it is that they deal with
processing the inputs from the device.

There is also a device configuration file 'encoderconf.h' which sets
up the maximum number of encoders and pin configuration. It does not
do this based on device selection, the user has to help a little.

Is that something fairly general also or is it more specific to

these chips?

Very device specific because it deals with interrupt signals and
device pins.

I know nothing at all about these processor chips, but I can read c
well enough to see what they're doing there, which is pretty

nifty from

what I see so far.

Having avrlib or WinAVR available makes getting started about as easy
as putting blocks together. There is a lot of code available and much
of it adapts automatically to the processor selected.

Interesting.

That's interesting too -- would that depend on how many interrupt
inputs you had available or how fast the chip in question could

handle one

and therefore be likely to be able to deal with more than one?

'encoderconf.h' sets up as many as 3 encoders although the maximum is
defined as two.

Hm.

Easily redefined for 3 if the chip supports enough interrupt pins.

For Linux users you can download avrlib from
but that just gets you
some interesting source code.

Ok...

You can follow the instructions at
to build avr-binutils, avr-gcc, avr-libc and uisp. Then download and
build avrdude from here:
FWIW, I had a
problem with gcc-4.0.2 so I am using gcc-3.4.3.

You can add the Eclipse IDE by download the Java Runtime Environment
(JRE) from www.sun.com then grab Eclipse and
the C Development Tool (CDT) from

This is a couple of hundred megabytes of download. Let me know if you
decide to pursue the project. I can probably burn a CD and mail it to
you.

That would at the very least make for some interesting reading.

I'll send you

my address offlist.

You still need the instructions from slacy.com

As to development hardware: see
I use the
ATmega128, primarily. For a programmer see
. I use the
AVR STK Parallel Port Dongle Programmer with avrdude.

How much hardware does it take to get started with these parts? And

what

about getting a handle on the parts themselves? One of the problems I
perceived with the PIC stuff was that there were so darn many of

them out

there, and I have no clue about the differences among them...

That is a problem with AVRs as well. They come in all sizes with
differing internal gadgets.

Check out the datasheet for the ATmega32. If is a 40 pin DIP so it is
easy to breadboard and it has an internal 8 MHz clock. This makes it
particularly easy to play with. Now, I haven't programmed this with
avrdude because I have the Atmel STK500 programmer but all of these
devices program using either ICSP (avrdude) or JTAG (which I don't use).

So, look at the Olimex development board

$15.95, a chip

$8.28, a programming dongle

$11.95 and a wall wart

$3.95. You are ready to go at a pretty high level for $40 (plus
shipping).

The device itself has 32k of code space, 2k of SRAM, 1k of EEPROM and
just about every possible gadget (I2C, SPI, USART, 3 Timers, Analog
Comparator, 8 channel A/D converter plus general IO ports if the
gadgets aren't using the pins).

The chip can also be run at 16MHz with a crystal/ceramic resonator and
will execute about 16 million instructions per second - this is very
fast. In my opinion about 5 times the speed of an equivalent
mid-range PIC (say 16F877) and speed is always a good thing.

It's no secret that I prefer the ATmega128 primarily because it has
more IO and 2 USARTs. There are a lot of applications where the '128
would sit between a PC and some kind of serial gadget such as a 32
channel servo controller. Having dual USARTs is a plus. But, the 64
pin flat pack is a PITA.

As to the development board, I would install a bunch of female headers
and use prototype jumpers to get the signals over onto a standard
prototype board. Soldering stuff to the Olimex board kind of limits
its' future use. But, who knows?

Richard

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 10:09 am, rtstofer wrote:

Rather than downloading the whole mess, which would be a bit slow
on dialup, I went to the online html documentation link, and selected
encoder.c and encoder.h and downloaded the documentation and source pages
for both of those. I hope that's what you were referring to. :-) The
encoder.h source in particular has a nice explanation in there showing
waveforms and such, and explains just how it is that they deal with
processing the inputs from the device.

There is also a device configuration file 'encoderconf.h' which sets
up the maximum number of encoders and pin configuration. It does not
do this based on device selection, the user has to help a little.

Is that something fairly general also or is it more specific to these chips?

I know nothing at all about these processor chips, but I can read c
well enough to see what they're doing there, which is pretty nifty from
what I see so far.

Having avrlib or WinAVR available makes getting started about as easy
as putting blocks together. There is a lot of code available and much
of it adapts automatically to the processor selected.

Interesting.

That's interesting too -- would that depend on how many interrupt
inputs you had available or how fast the chip in question could handle one
and therefore be likely to be able to deal with more than one?

'encoderconf.h' sets up as many as 3 encoders although the maximum is
defined as two.

Hm.

I know *nothing* about these parts -- is there any place in particular
where you could point me to that would get me going? I'm familiar with a
bunch of way earlier chips, stuff like the 8080, 8085, z80, 68xx, 65xx,
and similar, but just haven't kept up. (Like I *really* need another
thing on my plate, which is already pretty full. :-)

For Windows users there is WinAVR which includes the compiler and tool
kit at

I'm not a windoze user. :-)

For Linux users you can download avrlib from
but that just gets you
some interesting source code.

Ok...

You can follow the instructions at
to build avr-binutils, avr-gcc, avr-libc and uisp. Then download and
build avrdude from here:
FWIW, I had a
problem with gcc-4.0.2 so I am using gcc-3.4.3.

You can add the Eclipse IDE by download the Java Runtime Environment
(JRE) from www.sun.com then grab Eclipse and
the C Development Tool (CDT) from

This is a couple of hundred megabytes of download. Let me know if you
decide to pursue the project. I can probably burn a CD and mail it to
you.

That would at the very least make for some interesting reading. I'll send you
my address offlist.

You still need the instructions from slacy.com

As to development hardware: see
I use the
ATmega128, primarily. For a programmer see
. I use the
AVR STK Parallel Port Dongle Programmer with avrdude.

How much hardware does it take to get started with these parts? And what
about getting a handle on the parts themselves? One of the problems I
perceived with the PIC stuff was that there were so darn many of them out
there, and I have no clue about the differences among them...

--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin

--- In Electronics_101@..., "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

I know, you guys will probably wet yourselves laughing at this, but
just in case others have not thought of it...

I am using solid conductor hookup wire for a number of interconnects
and such (for non-moving items). Anyway, I always cut my wires long,
then during installation trim them to length. I used to just toss
them in the trash, however, I am now stripping about 1/4" off each
end. Very handy jumpers for use on bread boards and cheap too!

Okay, you can all stop laughing at me now :-)

Chris

No laughing from over here! That a great idea. I don't use solid
hookup wire (ever) but there is certainly no reason not to build
prototyping jumpers. I use resistor leads all the time.

I really prefer the flexible jumpers from Jameco. I have a couple of
hundred and it just makes prototyping fast.

Richard

I know, you guys will probably wet yourselves laughing at this, but
just in case others have not thought of it...

I am using solid conductor hookup wire for a number of interconnects
and such (for non-moving items). Anyway, I always cut my wires long,
then during installation trim them to length. I used to just toss
them in the trash, however, I am now stripping about 1/4" off each
end. Very handy jumpers for use on bread boards and cheap too!

Okay, you can all stop laughing at me now :-)

Chris

Rather than downloading the whole mess, which would be a bit slow

on dialup,

I went to the online html documentation link, and selected

encoder.c and

encoder.h and downloaded the documentation and source pages for both of
those. I hope that's what you were referring to. :-) The

encoder.h source

in particular has a nice explanation in there showing waveforms and

such, and

explains just how it is that they deal with processing the inputs

from the

device.

There is also a device configuration file 'encoderconf.h' which sets
up the maximum number of encoders and pin configuration. It does not
do this based on device selection, the user has to help a little.

I know nothing at all about these processor chips, but I can read c

well

enough to see what they're doing there, which is pretty nifty from

what I

see so far.

Having avrlib or WinAVR available makes getting started about as easy
as putting blocks together. There is a lot of code available and much
of it adapts automatically to the processor selected.

That's interesting too -- would that depend on how many interrupt

inputs you

had available or how fast the chip in question could handle one and

therefore

be likely to be able to deal with more than one?

'encoderconf.h' sets up as many as 3 encoders although the maximum is
defined as two.

I know *nothing* about these parts -- is there any place in

particular where

you could point me to that would get me going? I'm familiar with a

bunch of

way earlier chips, stuff like the 8080, 8085, z80, 68xx, 65xx, and

similar,

but just haven't kept up. (Like I *really* need another thing on my

plate,

which is already pretty full. :-)

For Windows users there is WinAVR which includes the compiler and tool
kit at

For Linux users you can download avrlib from
but that just gets you
some interesting source code.

You can follow the instructions at
to build avr-binutils, avr-gcc, avr-libc and uisp. Then download and
build avrdude from here:
FWIW, I had a
problem with gcc-4.0.2 so I am using gcc-3.4.3.

You can add the Eclipse IDE by download the Java Runtime Environment
(JRE) from www.sun.com then grab Eclipse and
the C Development Tool (CDT) from

This is a couple of hundred megabytes of download. Let me know if you
decide to pursue the project. I can probably burn a CD and mail it to
you. You still need the instructions from slacy.com

As to development hardware: see
I use the
ATmega128, primarily. For a programmer see
. I use the
AVR STK Parallel Port Dongle Programmer with avrdude.

Richard

Thanks Shawn,

The SPI stuff won't be going through this, so I am safe there.

Chris


--- In Electronics_101@..., Shawn Upton <kb1ckt@...>
wrote:

One thing to watch out for is asymetrical speed--the
open collector drivers have different rise times
relative to the fall times. This may matter for SPI
communication at the higher speeds.

But, open collector outputs are pretty hardy, and easy
enough to replace if abused. They also afford cheap
fast voltage conversion, going higher/lower in I/O
voltage levels.

On the input side, often a simple series resistor will
suffice. Alot of IC's that I've seen state that an
input can be overdriven by up to 30mA into the pin--so
a 1k resistor will get up to 30V protection! This
works by using the ESD structures in (most) IC's to
clamp that pin voltage to +/- a diode drop of either
supply.

Now, I've done this; but others have recommended to
not depend upon the ESD structures for DC
currents--they are meant for short duration overload
conditions, not continous "abuse". They would
recommmend using external diodes and the same series
resistor. Your choice.

Me, on a board I once used series 2.2k resistors with
220pF caps to ground (high noise enviroment) to drive
a 74HCT541 buffer. The drivers were TTL, and I use
CMOS as a rule of thumb. Worked well, and ended a
long standing failure mode (damage to downstream
IC's). No diodes. The only thing I had to watch out
for was rise/fall times; HC and HCT devices will show
a spike in ICC for slow switching speeds due to both
transistors being on, unless if it is a Schotkey input
type.

Shawn

--- lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

Hi Guys,

I will be making a small I/O board for some AVRs.
As the inputs
should be pretty straight forward, I am not overly
worried about
them at the present (most of them will be switched
to ground).

However, for the outputs, I don't yet know what I
will be connecting
to them. It could be any of the following:
Mosfets, Relays, LEDs,
etc.

I have some experience with the ULN2803 and being
that I am familiar
with it, I want to use it again. But, that doesn't
expand my
knowledge much either - which is bad.

I would like both the inputs and outputs to be
fairly robust, but
certainly don't want to build them like a tank
either.

So, if you all have some suggestions, I am all ears.
But, as usual,
I am very much on my 'learners permit' :-)

Chris

Shawn Upton, KB1CKT

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

--- In Electronics_101@..., "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

I use target made by <>. It does schematic,
simulation, PCB layout, and is affordable.

ST


On Tue, 02 May 2006 05:39:22 +0200, Tom <electrictom74@...> wrote:

Does anybody know of any cheap or low cost circuit design software

like Electronics Workbench or simular. I would like to get back into

electronics design circuits and such see what I have missed the last

ten years. Any suggestions would be helpful.


Tom

Pspice is an excellent schematic and simulation program, student
version is free for downloaad. Do a search on it to get the address.