Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
As for myself I can cover upto $1,000.00.
Using the ELS on the mill would?be interesting and a savings as I could use it on both of my lathes and the mill.
Ralph
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:34 PM Richard < edelec@...> wrote: Hi John, I only asked as you raised costs in an earlier mail. Whether we
like it or not it is one of the factors considered when choosing a system.
Richard
On 11/12/2019 20:51, John Dammeyer wrote:
> Hi Richard,
> My ELS is way more expensive than that.? But there's a historical reason for it.? Not made in China is the biggest one.? Get PC boards made locally (if even possible anymore)? for each of the RELS parts, manufacture 200 including all the pick and place setup charges and you will find the RELS will be way more expensive.? ?Get the three or four boards made in China in that quantity and maybe you will meet that price.? Maybe.? At the time (2006) none of that was available.
>
> The ELS was also designed to have an on board micro-stepping driver good to 55V and 3A for the Z axis.? It's always been primarily designed to replace or augment the gears on old lathes with missing gears or where metric is needed for an imperial screw.? ?As such the behaviour is still very manually oriented rather than CNC.? But the cost of the devices has also been undercut by cheap Stepper Motor drivers made by people who get paid the equivalent of one Starbucks Coffee per day.? So Although the infrastructure is still there for the ELS it's just not cost effective.
>
> The custom metal back plates were bought to serve as mounting and heatsink.? I had 100 made.? Too bad it wasn't 200.? The company that made them is out of business.? Retooling costs to get another 100 made compared again to costs of other items from China just doesn't make it worth it.? So yet another reason not to use the on board stepper driver feature.
>
> A read through the E-Leadscrew archives will show that one member from Australia did make an ELS with a much smaller footprint, a couple of switches and a rotary encoder.? Cost of parts was under $50 I believe.? When I see the commercial CNC systems operated with a single MPG knob and a single button I'll believe that it's cost effective for time and energy to use a rotary knob to enter numbers etc.
>
> We went through that discussion extensively.? As a result my ELS has a keypad, soft keys under the LCD display and dedicated motion keys with shortcut keys to set things like BEGIN/END.? It's those things that make it easy to use.? It tracks slightly varying spindle speeds.
>
> And yes, I don't have a PC connected to the lathes.? Only to the CNC router and the Mill.? ?Although now surplus LCD displays and small footprint PCs (or BBBs with MachineKit) come in at under $100 so a true cost argument would have MachineKit on a lathe run with a BeagleBone and Cape.? All other costs for hardware and spindle being equal.? And then so much more is possible with the lathe than just an electronic gear.
>
> The example of 3D printed encoder is an example of how to save money.
>
> So I think a comparison of costs isn't really the issue since full CNC is now available for so little.? And as I said, I have a friend over 70 who isn't interested in an ELS because the CNC lathe is just so easy to use for him.
>
> If costs really were the issue then there would only be one model car available at a very low low cost.? No Mercedes, Audi, Lexus etc.? After all, cost is the only criteria for choosing a car.
>
> Cheers,
> John
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf Of Richard
>> Sent: December-11-19 11:54 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
>>
>> I see that my cost shows as ?90 which may not display correctly as GB
>> Pounds 90. Just to complete the discussion what price is your ELS these
>> days?
>> You also have discussed using Mach3 with one pulse per rev, we must not
>> forget that there are hardware and software costs involved with Mach3,
>> plus a PC sitting in the shop.
>> Reloading into a system in the shop for me only involves plugging in a
>> USB lead and uploading, it is the work of a few minutes.
>> I really do not think that the average guy will ever need to upload new
>> parameters.
>> ATB
>> Richard
>>
>> On 11/12/2019 18:21, John Dammeyer wrote:
>>> Hi Richard,
>>> All good points.? I'd rather put my money into a higher quality spindle drive
>> that doesn't slow down with deep cuts.? Surface finish by maintaining a
>> constant SFM is more important to me.? Having said that the ELS does track
>> slightly varying spindle speeds that show up with the smaller lathes.
>>> Having to compile and reload code into a system sitting in the shop for me
>> is a complete non-starter.
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>>>> Behalf Of Richard
>>>> Sent: December-11-19 7:32 AM
>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>> Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
>>>>
>>>> Tracking the spindle backwards and forwards is not a feature that
>>>> interests me, however tracking the spindle at varying speeds does. The
>>>> problem that I have had with one pulse per rev monitoring is that if the
>>>> spindle slows whilst cutting a deep thread the tool ends up cutting too
>>>> much metal, the result is further slowing and probably a stall or broken
>>>> tool. This has not happened with the encoder system.
>>>> As you say pitches, feeds and tapers are pre-calculated in a
>>>> spreadsheet. The current feed values are adequate for most people I
>>>> would think. The tapers cover all of the MT plus a number of angle and
>>>> ratio tapers. If a user feels that he would need a special then load it
>>>> before the first compile. The same with threads the majority of metric
>>>> and imperial threads are loaded. If a real special is subsequently
>>>> required then yes it needs to be added and a recompile executed. Not a
>>>> major problem IMHO and I have not needed to do it.
>>>> Re cost, Steppers, drives and power supply are common to both so can be
>>>> ignored. The RELS cost therefore comes down to:-
>>>> Arduino Mega, Encoder, belt and two pulleys, 2 line display, 5 button
>>>> pcb, 4 buttons with integral LED's, 1 joystick, 5v psu, 74LS86
>>>> chip+resistors+terminals+cable+connectors
>>>> For me that comes at a say ?90. I make my own enclosures from 6mm
>>>> laminate flooring so near zero cost there.
>>>> Obviously your system includes the Z drive so that should be allowed for.
>>>> The capability of cutting external and internal tapers was a big plus
>>>> and something I have had no problems with, however that was not the
>> case
>>>> with another system!
>>>> Having run both a one pulse per rev system and the RELS on my lathe I
>>>> prefer the latter.
>>>>
>>>> Richard Edwards
>>>>
>>>> On 11/12/2019 09:03, John Dammeyer wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for the endorsement Richard.? But I know that there are features
>>>> from the RELS that don't exist on mine.? I'd really like to learn more about
>>>> what is different.
>>>>> I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value.? My ELS has a
>>>> keypad for numeric input.? My 3D printer menu does not.? Arrow keys to
>>>> select and increment/decrement a value.? As a result I never use it.
>> Instead? I
>>>> use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer.? My PC has a keyboard with
>>>> numeric keys.
>>>>> But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards
>> and
>>>> forward and the lead screw tracks.? Useless on my South bend which has
>>>> over 0.025" backlash on the half nut.? ?I'd toast a thread if I move the
>> spindle
>>>> back and forth with the tool in the thread.? ?So the feature to be able to
>>>> rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South
>>>> Bend.
>>>>> The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet.? You
>> then
>>>> change the software.? Then compile and update the firmware in the
>> Arduino.
>>>> My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
>>>>> I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less
>>>> expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.
>>>>> One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal
>> taper
>>>> boring.? It's something on my list to look at.
>>>>> John Dammeyer
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Richard
>>>>>> Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
>>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph,
>>>>>> I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
>>>>>> pulse is easy to handle.
>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks for the replies!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Hi Richard. Didn't mean to come off sounding snarky.
The 90 pounds is about $150 Cdn. The Cdn dollar is pretty crappy against the US$ right now so my ELS tends to be more expensive anyway.
Overall the cost of the electronics is small. Like the RELS or my ELS the devil is in all the details like packaging etc.
In hindsight I would have added more buttons to my ELS and a few more diodes to allow more Shift button combinations.
Anyway. My ELS is open source. At some point I will add more features like easier programming. Perhaps then multi-line encoder support.
John
Sent from John's iPhone 4S
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2019-12-11, at 1:33 PM, "Richard" <edelec@...> wrote: Hi John, I only asked as you raised costs in an earlier mail. Whether we
like it or not it is one of the factors considered when choosing a system.
Richard
On 11/12/2019 20:51, John Dammeyer wrote:
Hi Richard,
My ELS is way more expensive than that. But there's a historical reason for it. Not made in China is the biggest one. Get PC boards made locally (if even possible anymore) for each of the RELS parts, manufacture 200 including all the pick and place setup charges and you will find the RELS will be way more expensive. Get the three or four boards made in China in that quantity and maybe you will meet that price. Maybe. At the time (2006) none of that was available.
The ELS was also designed to have an on board micro-stepping driver good to 55V and 3A for the Z axis. It's always been primarily designed to replace or augment the gears on old lathes with missing gears or where metric is needed for an imperial screw. As such the behaviour is still very manually oriented rather than CNC. But the cost of the devices has also been undercut by cheap Stepper Motor drivers made by people who get paid the equivalent of one Starbucks Coffee per day. So Although the infrastructure is still there for the ELS it's just not cost effective.
The custom metal back plates were bought to serve as mounting and heatsink. I had 100 made. Too bad it wasn't 200. The company that made them is out of business. Retooling costs to get another 100 made compared again to costs of other items from China just doesn't make it worth it. So yet another reason not to use the on board stepper driver feature.
A read through the E-Leadscrew archives will show that one member from Australia did make an ELS with a much smaller footprint, a couple of switches and a rotary encoder. Cost of parts was under $50 I believe. When I see the commercial CNC systems operated with a single MPG knob and a single button I'll believe that it's cost effective for time and energy to use a rotary knob to enter numbers etc.
We went through that discussion extensively. As a result my ELS has a keypad, soft keys under the LCD display and dedicated motion keys with shortcut keys to set things like BEGIN/END. It's those things that make it easy
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Hi John, I only asked as you raised costs in an earlier mail. Whether we
like it or not it is one of the factors considered when choosing a system.
Richard
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 11/12/2019 20:51, John Dammeyer wrote: Hi Richard,
My ELS is way more expensive than that. But there's a historical reason for it. Not made in China is the biggest one. Get PC boards made locally (if even possible anymore) for each of the RELS parts, manufacture 200 including all the pick and place setup charges and you will find the RELS will be way more expensive. Get the three or four boards made in China in that quantity and maybe you will meet that price. Maybe. At the time (2006) none of that was available.
The ELS was also designed to have an on board micro-stepping driver good to 55V and 3A for the Z axis. It's always been primarily designed to replace or augment the gears on old lathes with missing gears or where metric is needed for an imperial screw. As such the behaviour is still very manually oriented rather than CNC. But the cost of the devices has also been undercut by cheap Stepper Motor drivers made by people who get paid the equivalent of one Starbucks Coffee per day. So Although the infrastructure is still there for the ELS it's just not cost effective.
The custom metal back plates were bought to serve as mounting and heatsink. I had 100 made. Too bad it wasn't 200. The company that made them is out of business. Retooling costs to get another 100 made compared again to costs of other items from China just doesn't make it worth it. So yet another reason not to use the on board stepper driver feature.
A read through the E-Leadscrew archives will show that one member from Australia did make an ELS with a much smaller footprint, a couple of switches and a rotary encoder. Cost of parts was under $50 I believe. When I see the commercial CNC systems operated with a single MPG knob and a single button I'll believe that it's cost effective for time and energy to use a rotary knob to enter numbers etc.
We went through that discussion extensively. As a result my ELS has a keypad, soft keys under the LCD display and dedicated motion keys with shortcut keys to set things like BEGIN/END. It's those things that make it easy to use. It tracks slightly varying spindle speeds.
And yes, I don't have a PC connected to the lathes. Only to the CNC router and the Mill. Although now surplus LCD displays and small footprint PCs (or BBBs with MachineKit) come in at under $100 so a true cost argument would have MachineKit on a lathe run with a BeagleBone and Cape. All other costs for hardware and spindle being equal. And then so much more is possible with the lathe than just an electronic gear.
The example of 3D printed encoder is an example of how to save money.
So I think a comparison of costs isn't really the issue since full CNC is now available for so little. And as I said, I have a friend over 70 who isn't interested in an ELS because the CNC lathe is just so easy to use for him.
If costs really were the issue then there would only be one model car available at a very low low cost. No Mercedes, Audi, Lexus etc. After all, cost is the only criteria for choosing a car.
Cheers,
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 11:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
I see that my cost shows as ?90 which may not display correctly as GB
Pounds 90. Just to complete the discussion what price is your ELS these
days?
You also have discussed using Mach3 with one pulse per rev, we must not
forget that there are hardware and software costs involved with Mach3,
plus a PC sitting in the shop.
Reloading into a system in the shop for me only involves plugging in a
USB lead and uploading, it is the work of a few minutes.
I really do not think that the average guy will ever need to upload new
parameters.
ATB
Richard
On 11/12/2019 18:21, John Dammeyer wrote:
Hi Richard,
All good points. I'd rather put my money into a higher quality spindle drive that doesn't slow down with deep cuts. Surface finish by maintaining a
constant SFM is more important to me. Having said that the ELS does track
slightly varying spindle speeds that show up with the smaller lathes.
Having to compile and reload code into a system sitting in the shop for me is a complete non-starter.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
Tracking the spindle backwards and forwards is not a feature that
interests me, however tracking the spindle at varying speeds does. The
problem that I have had with one pulse per rev monitoring is that if the
spindle slows whilst cutting a deep thread the tool ends up cutting too
much metal, the result is further slowing and probably a stall or broken
tool. This has not happened with the encoder system.
As you say pitches, feeds and tapers are pre-calculated in a
spreadsheet. The current feed values are adequate for most people I
would think. The tapers cover all of the MT plus a number of angle and
ratio tapers. If a user feels that he would need a special then load it
before the first compile. The same with threads the majority of metric
and imperial threads are loaded. If a real special is subsequently
required then yes it needs to be added and a recompile executed. Not a
major problem IMHO and I have not needed to do it.
Re cost, Steppers, drives and power supply are common to both so can be
ignored. The RELS cost therefore comes down to:-
Arduino Mega, Encoder, belt and two pulleys, 2 line display, 5 button
pcb, 4 buttons with integral LED's, 1 joystick, 5v psu, 74LS86
chip+resistors+terminals+cable+connectors
For me that comes at a say ?90. I make my own enclosures from 6mm
laminate flooring so near zero cost there.
Obviously your system includes the Z drive so that should be allowed for.
The capability of cutting external and internal tapers was a big plus
and something I have had no problems with, however that was not the case
with another system!
Having run both a one pulse per rev system and the RELS on my lathe I
prefer the latter.
Richard Edwards
On 11/12/2019 09:03, John Dammeyer wrote:
Thanks for the endorsement Richard. But I know that there are features from the RELS that don't exist on mine. I'd really like to learn more about
what is different.
I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value. My ELS has a keypad for numeric input. My 3D printer menu does not. Arrow keys to
select and increment/decrement a value. As a result I never use it.
Instead I
use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer. My PC has a keyboard with
numeric keys.
But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards
and
forward and the lead screw tracks. Useless on my South bend which has
over 0.025" backlash on the half nut. I'd toast a thread if I move the
spindle
back and forth with the tool in the thread. So the feature to be able to
rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South
Bend.
The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet. You
then
change the software. Then compile and update the firmware in the
Arduino.
My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.
One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal
taper
boring. It's something on my list to look at.
John Dammeyer
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
Ralph,
I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
pulse is easy to handle.
Richard
On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
Thanks for the replies!!
Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Hi Richard,
My ELS is way more expensive than that. But there's a historical reason for it. Not made in China is the biggest one. Get PC boards made locally (if even possible anymore) for each of the RELS parts, manufacture 200 including all the pick and place setup charges and you will find the RELS will be way more expensive. Get the three or four boards made in China in that quantity and maybe you will meet that price. Maybe. At the time (2006) none of that was available.
The ELS was also designed to have an on board micro-stepping driver good to 55V and 3A for the Z axis. It's always been primarily designed to replace or augment the gears on old lathes with missing gears or where metric is needed for an imperial screw. As such the behaviour is still very manually oriented rather than CNC. But the cost of the devices has also been undercut by cheap Stepper Motor drivers made by people who get paid the equivalent of one Starbucks Coffee per day. So Although the infrastructure is still there for the ELS it's just not cost effective.
The custom metal back plates were bought to serve as mounting and heatsink. I had 100 made. Too bad it wasn't 200. The company that made them is out of business. Retooling costs to get another 100 made compared again to costs of other items from China just doesn't make it worth it. So yet another reason not to use the on board stepper driver feature.
A read through the E-Leadscrew archives will show that one member from Australia did make an ELS with a much smaller footprint, a couple of switches and a rotary encoder. Cost of parts was under $50 I believe. When I see the commercial CNC systems operated with a single MPG knob and a single button I'll believe that it's cost effective for time and energy to use a rotary knob to enter numbers etc.
We went through that discussion extensively. As a result my ELS has a keypad, soft keys under the LCD display and dedicated motion keys with shortcut keys to set things like BEGIN/END. It's those things that make it easy to use. It tracks slightly varying spindle speeds.
And yes, I don't have a PC connected to the lathes. Only to the CNC router and the Mill. Although now surplus LCD displays and small footprint PCs (or BBBs with MachineKit) come in at under $100 so a true cost argument would have MachineKit on a lathe run with a BeagleBone and Cape. All other costs for hardware and spindle being equal. And then so much more is possible with the lathe than just an electronic gear.
The example of 3D printed encoder is an example of how to save money.
So I think a comparison of costs isn't really the issue since full CNC is now available for so little. And as I said, I have a friend over 70 who isn't interested in an ELS because the CNC lathe is just so easy to use for him.
If costs really were the issue then there would only be one model car available at a very low low cost. No Mercedes, Audi, Lexus etc. After all, cost is the only criteria for choosing a car.
Cheers,
John
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 11:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
I see that my cost shows as ?90 which may not display correctly as GB
Pounds 90. Just to complete the discussion what price is your ELS these
days?
You also have discussed using Mach3 with one pulse per rev, we must not
forget that there are hardware and software costs involved with Mach3,
plus a PC sitting in the shop.
Reloading into a system in the shop for me only involves plugging in a
USB lead and uploading, it is the work of a few minutes.
I really do not think that the average guy will ever need to upload new
parameters.
ATB
Richard
On 11/12/2019 18:21, John Dammeyer wrote:
Hi Richard,
All good points. I'd rather put my money into a higher quality spindle drive that doesn't slow down with deep cuts. Surface finish by maintaining a
constant SFM is more important to me. Having said that the ELS does track
slightly varying spindle speeds that show up with the smaller lathes.
Having to compile and reload code into a system sitting in the shop for me
is a complete non-starter.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
Tracking the spindle backwards and forwards is not a feature that
interests me, however tracking the spindle at varying speeds does. The
problem that I have had with one pulse per rev monitoring is that if the
spindle slows whilst cutting a deep thread the tool ends up cutting too
much metal, the result is further slowing and probably a stall or broken
tool. This has not happened with the encoder system.
As you say pitches, feeds and tapers are pre-calculated in a
spreadsheet. The current feed values are adequate for most people I
would think. The tapers cover all of the MT plus a number of angle and
ratio tapers. If a user feels that he would need a special then load it
before the first compile. The same with threads the majority of metric
and imperial threads are loaded. If a real special is subsequently
required then yes it needs to be added and a recompile executed. Not a
major problem IMHO and I have not needed to do it.
Re cost, Steppers, drives and power supply are common to both so can be
ignored. The RELS cost therefore comes down to:-
Arduino Mega, Encoder, belt and two pulleys, 2 line display, 5 button
pcb, 4 buttons with integral LED's, 1 joystick, 5v psu, 74LS86
chip+resistors+terminals+cable+connectors
For me that comes at a say ?90. I make my own enclosures from 6mm
laminate flooring so near zero cost there.
Obviously your system includes the Z drive so that should be allowed for.
The capability of cutting external and internal tapers was a big plus
and something I have had no problems with, however that was not the
case
with another system!
Having run both a one pulse per rev system and the RELS on my lathe I
prefer the latter.
Richard Edwards
On 11/12/2019 09:03, John Dammeyer wrote:
Thanks for the endorsement Richard. But I know that there are features from the RELS that don't exist on mine. I'd really like to learn more about
what is different.
I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value. My ELS has a keypad for numeric input. My 3D printer menu does not. Arrow keys to
select and increment/decrement a value. As a result I never use it.
Instead I
use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer. My PC has a keyboard with
numeric keys.
But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards
and
forward and the lead screw tracks. Useless on my South bend which has
over 0.025" backlash on the half nut. I'd toast a thread if I move the
spindle
back and forth with the tool in the thread. So the feature to be able to
rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South
Bend.
The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet. You
then
change the software. Then compile and update the firmware in the
Arduino.
My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.
One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal
taper
boring. It's something on my list to look at.
John Dammeyer
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
Ralph,
I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
pulse is easy to handle.
Richard
On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
Thanks for the replies!!
Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
I see that my cost shows as ?90 which may not display correctly as GB
Pounds 90. Just to complete the discussion what price is your ELS these
days?
You also have discussed using Mach3 with one pulse per rev, we must not
forget that there are hardware and software costs involved with Mach3,
plus a PC sitting in the shop.
Reloading into a system in the shop for me only involves plugging in a
USB lead and uploading, it is the work of a few minutes.
I really do not think that the average guy will ever need to upload new
parameters.
ATB
Richard
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 11/12/2019 18:21, John Dammeyer wrote: Hi Richard,
All good points. I'd rather put my money into a higher quality spindle drive that doesn't slow down with deep cuts. Surface finish by maintaining a constant SFM is more important to me. Having said that the ELS does track slightly varying spindle speeds that show up with the smaller lathes.
Having to compile and reload code into a system sitting in the shop for me is a complete non-starter.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
Tracking the spindle backwards and forwards is not a feature that
interests me, however tracking the spindle at varying speeds does. The
problem that I have had with one pulse per rev monitoring is that if the
spindle slows whilst cutting a deep thread the tool ends up cutting too
much metal, the result is further slowing and probably a stall or broken
tool. This has not happened with the encoder system.
As you say pitches, feeds and tapers are pre-calculated in a
spreadsheet. The current feed values are adequate for most people I
would think. The tapers cover all of the MT plus a number of angle and
ratio tapers. If a user feels that he would need a special then load it
before the first compile. The same with threads the majority of metric
and imperial threads are loaded. If a real special is subsequently
required then yes it needs to be added and a recompile executed. Not a
major problem IMHO and I have not needed to do it.
Re cost, Steppers, drives and power supply are common to both so can be
ignored. The RELS cost therefore comes down to:-
Arduino Mega, Encoder, belt and two pulleys, 2 line display, 5 button
pcb, 4 buttons with integral LED's, 1 joystick, 5v psu, 74LS86
chip+resistors+terminals+cable+connectors
For me that comes at a say ?90. I make my own enclosures from 6mm
laminate flooring so near zero cost there.
Obviously your system includes the Z drive so that should be allowed for.
The capability of cutting external and internal tapers was a big plus
and something I have had no problems with, however that was not the case
with another system!
Having run both a one pulse per rev system and the RELS on my lathe I
prefer the latter.
Richard Edwards
On 11/12/2019 09:03, John Dammeyer wrote:
Thanks for the endorsement Richard. But I know that there are features from the RELS that don't exist on mine. I'd really like to learn more about
what is different.
I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value. My ELS has a keypad for numeric input. My 3D printer menu does not. Arrow keys to
select and increment/decrement a value. As a result I never use it. Instead I
use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer. My PC has a keyboard with
numeric keys.
But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards and forward and the lead screw tracks. Useless on my South bend which has
over 0.025" backlash on the half nut. I'd toast a thread if I move the spindle
back and forth with the tool in the thread. So the feature to be able to
rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South
Bend.
The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet. You then change the software. Then compile and update the firmware in the Arduino.
My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.
One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal taper boring. It's something on my list to look at.
John Dammeyer
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
Ralph,
I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
pulse is easy to handle.
Richard
On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
Thanks for the replies!!
Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
|
Re: Hobbyist CNC - is it worth it?
#CNC
#CAD
The Boxford mill is quite small about 200mm X and 150mm Y IIRC.
Reduction was about 2:1 Motors will run at 3000rpm not sure of the
torque at that speed.
I will get some firmer numbers in a few days.
Richard
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 10/12/2019 09:32, John Dammeyer wrote: Hi Richard,
I have recently assisted a friend in uprating his Boxford CNC mill. We
used HSS 2Nm Servo Steppers and the results look great at the moment.
Feed rates now up to 2500mm/min and acceleration at 250mm/s/s. I may
discuss these units further at a later date.
Richard
Interesting about the servo steppers. I'm using DC Brushed Servos (or the Bergerda AC Servo) with a 3000 RPM constant torque rating of 1.6Nm and 3:1 reduction on the X axis. The Y has 4:1 because it's got to carry that extra weight from rotating X axis assembly. Peak Torque on the KL34-180-90 is 8Nm.
Anyway, with LinuxCNC and the MESA 7i92H allow me to move the X axis at 150 IPM (3810mm/min) and the Y at 120 IPM (3048mm/min) and they are incredibly quiet.
What sort of reduction did you use (if any)? What's the max RPM of the motors you used?
John Dammeyer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Mine are all project #42 because that's the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything.? At least according to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. ? John ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralph Hulslander
Sent: December-11-19 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder? I have a windows XP computer that I bought when I was looking at Mach 3 & 4. Plus I have a Windows 10 laptop and of course lots of Raspberry PIs. As you know I have been "looking" at doing something for a couple of years but just have not gotten comfortable That's why I labeled this thread as Step #1, I am getting closer to committing to something. ? On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 1:22 PM John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote: Hi Ralph, No matter which way you look at it you will need to mount the motors, run cables, install a power supply or two. ?I'd even add a BoB of some sort to simplify the cables and wiring. ? At this point you have everything except a machine that moves under computer control.? If you have a PC around that runs windows and it has a parallel port you can potentially run MACH3 with a 1PPR sensor and you can cut any thread you want.? The learning curve isn't super high and it could always be moved to the mill to make powered axis on that useful.? If you don't have a DRO on your mill the improvement will be astounding. ? Or, if money isn't an issue add that multi-line encoder instead of a 1PPR sensor and install LinuxCNC on an old PC.? Again the costs, other than how you measure spindle encoding are zero as long as you have that PC handy.? LinuxCNC also can't use a 1 PPR sensor but it's happy with far less than 1800 lines. ? I have friend here locally who is in his 70's. I wanted to get him to use my ELS.? Instead he installed a PC with MACH3 and hasn't looked back.? Finds it easy to use.? Same with his mill that also has MACH3 on it. ? I had power feed on the X axis and still have the Shumatech DRO-350 on my mill.? I used an ELS to run the Z axis for power up/down. ?Now with a dual boot PC and all three axis controlled by either MACH3 or LinuxCNC I'm finding there are some things I'd still like as a manual mill but I'm getting used to having CNC on the mill. ? As for the South Bend Heavy 10L lathe, one day I must really add a motor to the cross slide but the lathe has a mechanical taper attachment so it's not critical.? If I wanted power cross feed I can set up the gearbox and levers to give me automatic cross slide motion. ? But I just cut metric threads last week using my ELS and also ?turned to several shoulders.? Boring to depth is also not an issue.? ? Oh and here's what I'm prepping to use with my Gingery lathe and the BeagleBone Black (MachineKit) for CNC in addition to the index pulse still being long enough for my ELS.? The only surprise I had was that black PLA filament wasn't impervious to the infrared from the sensors so I had to spray the print with silver autobody paint.? I'm pretty sure the sensors were from an old printer.? If not they aren't that expensive. ? 
? I'll mount it something like this with an L bracket to the bearing clamp so I can adjust both radially and along the spindle to get the clearance right.?? It will also serve as a guard against the spinning teeth. ? 
? I promised myself I'd finish the Mill CNC conversion before I let myself be distracted by yet another project.? That includes ELS upgrades. Cross slide on the South Bend.? Even digging into the external stepper driver issues I'm having with the old motor drivers on the Gingery Lathe.? Z has started to be a bit wonky.? I've attached a larger JPG that shows the BoB and the motor drivers. ? ? And I do have surplus 100 line per rev BEI encoder (replacement from Digikey I think was $800) that would also work on my lathe with a couple of toothed pulleys and a belt.? So I didn't have to build the 3D printed version.? But again, as I understand the RELS requires 1800 lines so I couldn't use it for that even though I believe LinuxCNC would have no trouble.? I don't know about MACH4. ? There are many ways to skin a cat. ? John ? ? ? Thanks Richard and John! I want something that just works. I am 73 years old and don't want to spend years learning how to turn a taper or cut a thread. People?have mentioned some shortcomings of John's ELS but they seemed livable. Of course I still have to figure out mounting the Z and X stepper motors and selecting the motors. But using a hall effect to get the pulse sure would be easy. Tracking spindle motion backwards and forward seems like a asset. And of course I have my mill, I don't know about going CNC but having motorized X, Y and Z?+ Spindle ? On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:04 AM John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote: Thanks for the endorsement Richard.? But I know that there are features from the RELS that don't exist on mine.? I'd really like to learn more about what is different.?
I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value.? My ELS has a keypad for numeric input.? My 3D printer menu does not.? Arrow keys to select and increment/decrement a value.? As a result I never use it.? Instead? I use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer.? My PC has a keyboard with numeric keys.
But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards and forward and the lead screw tracks.? Useless on my South bend which has over 0.025" backlash on the half nut.? ?I'd toast a thread if I move the spindle back and forth with the tool in the thread.? ?So the feature to be able to rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South Bend.
The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet.? You then change the software.? Then compile and update the firmware in the Arduino.? My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.? ?
One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal taper boring.? It's something on my list to look at.
John Dammeyer
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
>
> Ralph,
> I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
> pulse is easy to handle.
> Richard
>
> On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
> > Thanks for the replies!!
> >
> > Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
> >
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
I have a windows XP computer that I bought when I was looking at Mach 3 & 4. Plus I have a Windows 10 laptop and of course lots of Raspberry PIs.
As you know I have been "looking" at doing something for a couple of years but just have not gotten comfortable with any of my ideas.
That's why I labeled this thread as Step #1, I am getting closer to committing to something.
Ralph
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 1:22 PM John Dammeyer < johnd@...> wrote: Hi Ralph, No matter which way you look at it you will need to mount the motors, run cables, install a power supply or two. ?I'd even add a BoB of some sort to simplify the cables and wiring. ? At this point you have everything except a machine that moves under computer control.? If you have a PC around that runs windows and it has a parallel port you can potentially run MACH3 with a 1PPR sensor and you can cut any thread you want.? The learning curve isn't super high and it could always be moved to the mill to make powered axis on that useful.? If you don't have a DRO on your mill the improvement will be astounding. ? Or, if money isn't an issue add that multi-line encoder instead of a 1PPR sensor and install LinuxCNC on an old PC.? Again the costs, other than how you measure spindle encoding are zero as long as you have that PC handy.? LinuxCNC also can't use a 1 PPR sensor but it's happy with far less than 1800 lines. ? I have friend here locally who is in his 70's. I wanted to get him to use my ELS.? Instead he installed a PC with MACH3 and hasn't looked back.? Finds it easy to use.? Same with his mill that also has MACH3 on it. ? I had power feed on the X axis and still have the Shumatech DRO-350 on my mill.? I used an ELS to run the Z axis for power up/down. ?Now with a dual boot PC and all three axis controlled by either MACH3 or LinuxCNC I'm finding there are some things I'd still like as a manual mill but I'm getting used to having CNC on the mill. ? As for the South Bend Heavy 10L lathe, one day I must really add a motor to the cross slide but the lathe has a mechanical taper attachment so it's not critical.? If I wanted power cross feed I can set up the gearbox and levers to give me automatic cross slide motion. ? But I just cut metric threads last week using my ELS and also ?turned to several shoulders.? Boring to depth is also not an issue.? ? Oh and here's what I'm prepping to use with my Gingery lathe and the BeagleBone Black (MachineKit) for CNC in addition to the index pulse still being long enough for my ELS.? The only surprise I had was that black PLA filament wasn't impervious to the infrared from the sensors so I had to spray the print with silver autobody paint.? I'm pretty sure the sensors were from an old printer.? If not they aren't that expensive. ? 
? I'll mount it something like this with an L bracket to the bearing clamp so I can adjust both radially and along the spindle to get the clearance right.?? It will also serve as a guard against the spinning teeth. ? 
? I promised myself I'd finish the Mill CNC conversion before I let myself be distracted by yet another project.? That includes ELS upgrades. Cross slide on the South Bend.? Even digging into the external stepper driver issues I'm having with the old motor drivers on the Gingery Lathe.? Z has started to be a bit wonky.? I've attached a larger JPG that shows the BoB and the motor drivers. ? ? And I do have surplus 100 line per rev BEI encoder (replacement from Digikey I think was $800) that would also work on my lathe with a couple of toothed pulleys and a belt.? So I didn't have to build the 3D printed version.? But again, as I understand the RELS requires 1800 lines so I couldn't use it for that even though I believe LinuxCNC would have no trouble.? I don't know about MACH4. ? There are many ways to skin a cat. ? John ? ? ? Thanks Richard and John! I want something that just works. I am 73 years old and don't want to spend years learning how to turn a taper or cut a thread. People?have mentioned some shortcomings of John's ELS but they seemed livable. Of course I still have to figure out mounting the Z and X stepper motors and selecting the motors. But using a hall effect to get the pulse sure would be easy. Tracking spindle motion backwards and forward seems like a asset. And of course I have my mill, I don't know about going CNC but having motorized X, Y and Z?+ Spindle ? On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:04 AM John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote: Thanks for the endorsement Richard.? But I know that there are features from the RELS that don't exist on mine.? I'd really like to learn more about what is different.?
I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value.? My ELS has a keypad for numeric input.? My 3D printer menu does not.? Arrow keys to select and increment/decrement a value.? As a result I never use it.? Instead? I use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer.? My PC has a keyboard with numeric keys.
But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards and forward and the lead screw tracks.? Useless on my South bend which has over 0.025" backlash on the half nut.? ?I'd toast a thread if I move the spindle back and forth with the tool in the thread.? ?So the feature to be able to rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South Bend.
The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet.? You then change the software.? Then compile and update the firmware in the Arduino.? My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.? ?
One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal taper boring.? It's something on my list to look at.
John Dammeyer
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
>
> Ralph,
> I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
> pulse is easy to handle.
> Richard
>
> On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
> > Thanks for the replies!!
> >
> > Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
> >
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Hi Ralph, No matter which way you look at it you will need to mount the motors, run cables, install a power supply or two. ?I'd even add a BoB of some sort to simplify the cables and wiring. ? At this point you have everything except a machine that moves under computer control.? If you have a PC around that runs windows and it has a parallel port you can potentially run MACH3 with a 1PPR sensor and you can cut any thread you want.? The learning curve isn't super high and it could always be moved to the mill to make powered axis on that useful.? If you don't have a DRO on your mill the improvement will be astounding. ? Or, if money isn't an issue add that multi-line encoder instead of a 1PPR sensor and install LinuxCNC on an old PC.? Again the costs, other than how you measure spindle encoding are zero as long as you have that PC handy.? LinuxCNC also can't use a 1 PPR sensor but it's happy with far less than 1800 lines. ? I have friend here locally who is in his 70's. I wanted to get him to use my ELS.? Instead he installed a PC with MACH3 and hasn't looked back.? Finds it easy to use.? Same with his mill that also has MACH3 on it. ? I had power feed on the X axis and still have the Shumatech DRO-350 on my mill.? I used an ELS to run the Z axis for power up/down. ?Now with a dual boot PC and all three axis controlled by either MACH3 or LinuxCNC I'm finding there are some things I'd still like as a manual mill but I'm getting used to having CNC on the mill. ? As for the South Bend Heavy 10L lathe, one day I must really add a motor to the cross slide but the lathe has a mechanical taper attachment so it's not critical.? If I wanted power cross feed I can set up the gearbox and levers to give me automatic cross slide motion. ? But I just cut metric threads last week using my ELS and also ?turned to several shoulders.? Boring to depth is also not an issue.? ? Oh and here's what I'm prepping to use with my Gingery lathe and the BeagleBone Black (MachineKit) for CNC in addition to the index pulse still being long enough for my ELS.? The only surprise I had was that black PLA filament wasn't impervious to the infrared from the sensors so I had to spray the print with silver autobody paint.? I'm pretty sure the sensors were from an old printer.? If not they aren't that expensive. ? 
? I'll mount it something like this with an L bracket to the bearing clamp so I can adjust both radially and along the spindle to get the clearance right.?? It will also serve as a guard against the spinning teeth. ? 
? I promised myself I'd finish the Mill CNC conversion before I let myself be distracted by yet another project.? That includes ELS upgrades. Cross slide on the South Bend.? Even digging into the external stepper driver issues I'm having with the old motor drivers on the Gingery Lathe.? Z has started to be a bit wonky.? I've attached a larger JPG that shows the BoB and the motor drivers. ? ? And I do have surplus 100 line per rev BEI encoder (replacement from Digikey I think was $800) that would also work on my lathe with a couple of toothed pulleys and a belt.? So I didn't have to build the 3D printed version.? But again, as I understand the RELS requires 1800 lines so I couldn't use it for that even though I believe LinuxCNC would have no trouble.? I don't know about MACH4. ? There are many ways to skin a cat. ? John ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralph Hulslander
Sent: December-11-19 5:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder? Thanks Richard and John! I want something that just works. I am 73 years old and don't want to spend years learning how to turn a taper or cut a thread. People?have mentioned some shortcomings of John's ELS but they seemed livable. Of course I still have to figure out mounting the Z and X stepper motors and selecting the motors. But using a hall effect to get the pulse sure would be easy. Tracking spindle motion backwards and forward seems like a asset. And of course I have my mill, I don't know about going CNC but having motorized X, Y and Z?+ Spindle ? On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:04 AM John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote: Thanks for the endorsement Richard.? But I know that there are features from the RELS that don't exist on mine.? I'd really like to learn more about what is different.?
I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value.? My ELS has a keypad for numeric input.? My 3D printer menu does not.? Arrow keys to select and increment/decrement a value.? As a result I never use it.? Instead? I use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer.? My PC has a keyboard with numeric keys.
But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards and forward and the lead screw tracks.? Useless on my South bend which has over 0.025" backlash on the half nut.? ?I'd toast a thread if I move the spindle back and forth with the tool in the thread.? ?So the feature to be able to rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South Bend.
The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet.? You then change the software.? Then compile and update the firmware in the Arduino.? My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.? ?
One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal taper boring.? It's something on my list to look at.
John Dammeyer
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
>
> Ralph,
> I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
> pulse is easy to handle.
> Richard
>
> On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
> > Thanks for the replies!!
> >
> > Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
> >
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Hi Richard,
All good points. I'd rather put my money into a higher quality spindle drive that doesn't slow down with deep cuts. Surface finish by maintaining a constant SFM is more important to me. Having said that the ELS does track slightly varying spindle speeds that show up with the smaller lathes.
Having to compile and reload code into a system sitting in the shop for me is a complete non-starter.
John
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
Tracking the spindle backwards and forwards is not a feature that
interests me, however tracking the spindle at varying speeds does. The
problem that I have had with one pulse per rev monitoring is that if the
spindle slows whilst cutting a deep thread the tool ends up cutting too
much metal, the result is further slowing and probably a stall or broken
tool. This has not happened with the encoder system.
As you say pitches, feeds and tapers are pre-calculated in a
spreadsheet. The current feed values are adequate for most people I
would think. The tapers cover all of the MT plus a number of angle and
ratio tapers. If a user feels that he would need a special then load it
before the first compile. The same with threads the majority of metric
and imperial threads are loaded. If a real special is subsequently
required then yes it needs to be added and a recompile executed. Not a
major problem IMHO and I have not needed to do it.
Re cost, Steppers, drives and power supply are common to both so can be
ignored. The RELS cost therefore comes down to:-
Arduino Mega, Encoder, belt and two pulleys, 2 line display, 5 button
pcb, 4 buttons with integral LED's, 1 joystick, 5v psu, 74LS86
chip+resistors+terminals+cable+connectors
For me that comes at a say ?90. I make my own enclosures from 6mm
laminate flooring so near zero cost there.
Obviously your system includes the Z drive so that should be allowed for.
The capability of cutting external and internal tapers was a big plus
and something I have had no problems with, however that was not the case
with another system!
Having run both a one pulse per rev system and the RELS on my lathe I
prefer the latter.
Richard Edwards
On 11/12/2019 09:03, John Dammeyer wrote:
Thanks for the endorsement Richard. But I know that there are features from the RELS that don't exist on mine. I'd really like to learn more about
what is different.
I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value. My ELS has a
keypad for numeric input. My 3D printer menu does not. Arrow keys to
select and increment/decrement a value. As a result I never use it. Instead I
use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer. My PC has a keyboard with
numeric keys.
But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards and
forward and the lead screw tracks. Useless on my South bend which has
over 0.025" backlash on the half nut. I'd toast a thread if I move the spindle
back and forth with the tool in the thread. So the feature to be able to
rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South
Bend.
The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet. You then
change the software. Then compile and update the firmware in the Arduino.
My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less
expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.
One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal taper
boring. It's something on my list to look at.
John Dammeyer
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
Ralph,
I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
pulse is easy to handle.
Richard
On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
Thanks for the replies!!
Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Tracking the spindle backwards and forwards is not a feature that
interests me, however tracking the spindle at varying speeds does. The
problem that I have had with one pulse per rev monitoring is that if the
spindle slows whilst cutting a deep thread the tool ends up cutting too
much metal, the result is further slowing and probably a stall or broken
tool. This has not happened with the encoder system.
As you say pitches, feeds and tapers are pre-calculated in a
spreadsheet. The current feed values are adequate for most people I
would think. The tapers cover all of the MT plus a number of angle and
ratio tapers. If a user feels that he would need a special then load it
before the first compile. The same with threads the majority of metric
and imperial threads are loaded. If a real special is subsequently
required then yes it needs to be added and a recompile executed. Not a
major problem IMHO and I have not needed to do it.
Re cost, Steppers, drives and power supply are common to both so can be
ignored. The RELS cost therefore comes down to:-
Arduino Mega, Encoder, belt and two pulleys, 2 line display, 5 button
pcb, 4 buttons with integral LED's, 1 joystick, 5v psu, 74LS86
chip+resistors+terminals+cable+connectors
For me that comes at a say ?90. I make my own enclosures from 6mm
laminate flooring so near zero cost there.
Obviously your system includes the Z drive so that should be allowed for.
The capability of cutting external and internal tapers was a big plus
and something I have had no problems with, however that was not the case
with another system!
Having run both a one pulse per rev system and the RELS on my lathe I
prefer the latter.
Richard Edwards
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 11/12/2019 09:03, John Dammeyer wrote: Thanks for the endorsement Richard. But I know that there are features from the RELS that don't exist on mine. I'd really like to learn more about what is different.
I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value. My ELS has a keypad for numeric input. My 3D printer menu does not. Arrow keys to select and increment/decrement a value. As a result I never use it. Instead I use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer. My PC has a keyboard with numeric keys.
But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards and forward and the lead screw tracks. Useless on my South bend which has over 0.025" backlash on the half nut. I'd toast a thread if I move the spindle back and forth with the tool in the thread. So the feature to be able to rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South Bend.
The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet. You then change the software. Then compile and update the firmware in the Arduino. My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.
One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal taper boring. It's something on my list to look at.
John Dammeyer
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
Ralph,
I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
pulse is easy to handle.
Richard
On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
Thanks for the replies!!
Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Thanks Richard and John!
I want something that just works. I am 73 years old and don't want to spend years learning how to turn a taper or cut a thread.
People?have mentioned some shortcomings of John's ELS but they seemed livable.
Of course I still have to figure out mounting the Z and X stepper motors and selecting the motors.
But using a hall effect to get the pulse sure would be easy.
Tracking spindle motion backwards and forward seems like a asset.
And of course I have my mill, I don't know about going CNC but having motorized X, Y and Z?+ Spindle sure sounds nice.
Ralph
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:04 AM John Dammeyer < johnd@...> wrote: Thanks for the endorsement Richard.? But I know that there are features from the RELS that don't exist on mine.? I'd really like to learn more about what is different.?
I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value.? My ELS has a keypad for numeric input.? My 3D printer menu does not.? Arrow keys to select and increment/decrement a value.? As a result I never use it.? Instead? I use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer.? My PC has a keyboard with numeric keys.
But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards and forward and the lead screw tracks.? Useless on my South bend which has over 0.025" backlash on the half nut.? ?I'd toast a thread if I move the spindle back and forth with the tool in the thread.? ?So the feature to be able to rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South Bend.
The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet.? You then change the software.? Then compile and update the firmware in the Arduino.? My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.? ?
One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal taper boring.? It's something on my list to look at.
John Dammeyer
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
>
> Ralph,
> I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
> pulse is easy to handle.
> Richard
>
> On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
> > Thanks for the replies!!
> >
> > Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
> >
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Thanks for the endorsement Richard. But I know that there are features from the RELS that don't exist on mine. I'd really like to learn more about what is different.
I know that I can't stand pressing buttons to enter a value. My ELS has a keypad for numeric input. My 3D printer menu does not. Arrow keys to select and increment/decrement a value. As a result I never use it. Instead I use Octoprint for dealing with my 3D printer. My PC has a keyboard with numeric keys.
But as I understand it the Russian ELS tracks spindle motion backwards and forward and the lead screw tracks. Useless on my South bend which has over 0.025" backlash on the half nut. I'd toast a thread if I move the spindle back and forth with the tool in the thread. So the feature to be able to rotate the headstock for a large part is a useless endeavour on my South Bend.
The lead screw threading pitches are calculated in a spread sheet. You then change the software. Then compile and update the firmware in the Arduino. My ELS lets you enter any ratios that you want.
I'm not sure when all is said and done that the RELS is that much less expensive so I'd love to hear exactly what makes it better.
One thing I've heard is a German ELS has less problems win internal taper boring. It's something on my list to look at.
John Dammeyer
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Richard
Sent: December-11-19 12:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder
Ralph,
I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
pulse is easy to handle.
Richard
On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote:
Thanks for the replies!!
Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Ralph,
I suggest you forget the RELS but go with John D's system. the single
pulse is easy to handle.
Richard
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 10/12/2019 19:09, Ralph Hulslander wrote: Thanks for the replies!!
Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
I cannot see where any loading to the encoder would come from, of
course I have not shown how I was going to mount the encoder and gear,
I need to get busy drawing the mounting up.
I will use the need for the drawings as the final reason to learn
Fusion 360.
Would the #RELS run with a single pulse for spindle speed? Even 8
pulses would be relatively easy.
I could just mount 8 magnets on the spindle gear, they would not even
have to be accurately spaced if the #RELS just needed to see 8 pulses.
Ralph
On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 12:26 PM Ant No <cmpaqp1100@...
<mailto:cmpaqp1100@...>> wrote:
A mill can be viewed as a subtractive 3D printer. The tasks and
automation are very similar.?
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill
press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D
printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
I totally agree with Rex.? You do not want any oscillation between spindle and encoder.? ? When I started my ELS project the one thing I could not do was find an encoder with a bore capable of fitting around the spindle and the collet draw bar.? I could have one made but the cost would be $70 and I had to buy 100. ?Also at the time, (2007) inexpensive bearing mounted quadrature encoders were way too expensive compared to our target price of $150 for the ELS kit. ??Even now high quality encoders are into the hundreds of dollars. ? Anyway, this was my initial approach that slipped over the end of the spindle. 
? And fit through the hole in the cover. ?Just had to screw on the disk afterwards and then use the cover mounting screws to hold the sensors. ?  ? The CAD drawing shows what the disk would look like.? But in the end I just couldn't mount it securely enough and I didn't want to try and make a fibreglass cover to go over everything in place of the cast cover. ? John ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralph Hulslander
Sent: December-10-19 2:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder? Thanks John, I still have your ELS in mind. Here is a very very rough starting idea for mounting the encoder and the gear: ? On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 2:22 PM John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote: Hi Ralph, From what I can see from reading the Arduino code it looks like it needs at least the same number of pulses from the spindle as it needs to send to the stepper motor.? The code I was looking at (pretty old now perhaps) uses a 200 step per rev motor, 4x micro-stepping for 800 steps per rev so the 1800 lines per rev are important. ? I think that's why you can turn the spindle in either direction and the stepper motor tracks.? It's a totally different approach from MACH3 and my ELS.? Even what the code does and how it's written is totally different from my ELS. ? John Dammeyer ? ? ? Thanks for the replies!! Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear. I cannot see where any loading to the encoder would come from, of course I have not shown how I was going to mount the encoder and gear, I need to get busy drawing the mounting up. I will use the need for the drawings as the final reason to learn Fusion 360. Would the #RELS run with a single pulse for spindle speed? Even 8 pulses would be relatively easy. I could just mount 8 magnets on the spindle gear, they would not even have to be accurately spaced if the #RELS just needed to see 8 pulses. ? A mill can be viewed as a subtractive 3D printer. The tasks and automation are very similar.?
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Thanks John, I still have your ELS in mind.
Here is a very very rough starting idea for mounting the encoder and the gear:
Ralph
On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 2:22 PM John Dammeyer < johnd@...> wrote: Hi Ralph, From what I can see from reading the Arduino code it looks like it needs at least the same number of pulses from the spindle as it needs to send to the stepper motor.? The code I was looking at (pretty old now perhaps) uses a 200 step per rev motor, 4x micro-stepping for 800 steps per rev so the 1800 lines per rev are important. ? I think that's why you can turn the spindle in either direction and the stepper motor tracks.? It's a totally different approach from MACH3 and my ELS.? Even what the code does and how it's written is totally different from my ELS. ? John Dammeyer ? ? ? Thanks for the replies!! Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear. I cannot see where any loading to the encoder would come from, of course I have not shown how I was going to mount the encoder and gear, I need to get busy drawing the mounting up. I will use the need for the drawings as the final reason to learn Fusion 360. Would the #RELS run with a single pulse for spindle speed? Even 8 pulses would be relatively easy. I could just mount 8 magnets on the spindle gear, they would not even have to be accurately spaced if the #RELS just needed to see 8 pulses. ? A mill can be viewed as a subtractive 3D printer. The tasks and automation are very similar.?
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Ralph, here's a scenario. The lead screw is advancing the tool toward the work. The drive gear is pulling the driven (encoder) gear. The tool engages the work and the spindle slows. The drive gear slows and the driven gear momentarily rotates ahead because of inertia in that gear. The motor recovers and the spindle speeds up. The drive gear moves faster to again pull the driven gear.? There may be a small harmonic oscillation as the two gears "bounce" back and forth.
As I said, the slop in the gears likely exceeds your encoder steps, so this oscillation may adversely affect your stepper motor timing. You must determine whether the "lost or inaccurate" steps will cause enough inaccuracy to be relevant, but you do need to understand why a low inertia, constant speed drive is preferred.
It's your call.
Thanks for the replies!!
Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
I cannot see where any loading to the encoder would come from, of course I have not shown how I was going to mount the encoder and gear, I need to get busy drawing the mounting up.
I will use the need for the drawings as the final reason to learn Fusion 360.
Would the #RELS run with a single pulse for spindle speed? Even 8 pulses would be relatively easy.
I could just mount 8 magnets on the spindle gear, they would not even have to be accurately spaced if the #RELS just needed to see 8 pulses.
Ralph
A mill can be viewed as a subtractive 3D printer. The tasks and automation are very similar.?
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Hi Ralph, From what I can see from reading the Arduino code it looks like it needs at least the same number of pulses from the spindle as it needs to send to the stepper motor.? The code I was looking at (pretty old now perhaps) uses a 200 step per rev motor, 4x micro-stepping for 800 steps per rev so the 1800 lines per rev are important. ? I think that's why you can turn the spindle in either direction and the stepper motor tracks.? It's a totally different approach from MACH3 and my ELS.? Even what the code does and how it's written is totally different from my ELS. ? John Dammeyer ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralph Hulslander
Sent: December-10-19 11:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] Step #1 Encoder? Thanks for the replies!! Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear. I cannot see where any loading to the encoder would come from, of course I have not shown how I was going to mount the encoder and gear, I need to get busy drawing the mounting up. I will use the need for the drawings as the final reason to learn Fusion 360. Would the #RELS run with a single pulse for spindle speed? Even 8 pulses would be relatively easy. I could just mount 8 magnets on the spindle gear, they would not even have to be accurately spaced if the #RELS just needed to see 8 pulses. ? A mill can be viewed as a subtractive 3D printer. The tasks and automation are very similar.?
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
Thanks for the replies!!
Rex, yes I wondered about slop in the gear.
I cannot see where any loading to the encoder would come from, of course I have not shown how I was going to mount the encoder and gear, I need to get busy drawing the mounting up.
I will use the need for the drawings as the final reason to learn Fusion 360.
Would the #RELS run with a single pulse for spindle speed? Even 8 pulses would be relatively easy.
I could just mount 8 magnets on the spindle gear, they would not even have to be accurately spaced if the #RELS just needed to see 8 pulses.
Ralph
A mill can be viewed as a subtractive 3D printer. The tasks and automation are very similar.?
--
Clausing 8520, Craftsman 12x36 Lathe, 4x12 mini lathe, 14" Delta drill press, 40 watt laser, Consew brushless DC motors and a non working 3D printer
|
Re: Step #1 Encoder
#RELS
A mill can be viewed as a subtractive 3D printer. The tasks and automation are very similar.?
|
