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SWAN comet hunting


 

Hi all.
I'm SOHO sungrazer comet hunter and I have found some of them, but now I also want to start looking for comets in SOHO/SWAN data.
Do you have any tips, how to start, how do I report and what do comets look like in these images?
?
Thanks,
Miko?aj Kaszczyk


 

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Hi Miko?aj: SWAN images are a little harder to work with than SOHO LASCO C3 and C2 due to the low cadence (daily), low angular resolution, and high noise. I use this (unfortunately non-secure) site to get the latest images, and/or GIF movie covering roughly the most recent 2 ? weeks:

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I then use ImageJ to open the animated .gif file, and then increase the contrast to improve visibility of comets just above the noise floor. There are currently three moving objects visible in SWAN: ?C/2023 A3 (Tsuchinshan-ATLAS), 333P/LINEAR, and Venus. Venus is easiest to see, moving right-to-left to the left of the sun centered near pixel X=156, Y=291 in the most recent 12/3 image. 333P/LINEAR is moving rapidly upward in the image to the upper right of the sun @ X=336, Y=196 on 12/3. Finally, C/2023 A3 has been dimming rapidly in SWAN, still just visible on 12/3 at X=179, Y=238 to the sun’s upper left.

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For a new discovery, I would wait until I had at least 4 solid images showing consistent motion before I’d get too excited, and for very dim objects I might wait until I had 5 or even 6 before I’d try to confirm it telescopically. To do the latter, you’ll need a way to convert SWAN’s raw pixel coordinates to approximate right ascension and declination. I can provide you simple equations for doing that when you get to that point, and the next step after that is to check if those positions correspond to an already known object. For that quick check, I like to use Seiichi Yoshida’s website:

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If the candidate object’s coordinates don’t match anything bright (12th magnitude or brighter) on Seiichi’s page, then it’s time to create crude astrometry which can be used to generate a rough orbit and predict the object’s future positions. That’s the hardest part of the problem, but I can walk you through it if you’re interested.? --Rob

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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of grymiki via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2024 9:12 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

Hi all.

I'm SOHO sungrazer comet hunter and I have found some of them, but now I also want to start looking for comets in SOHO/SWAN data.

Do you have any tips, how to start, how do I report and what do comets look like in these images?

?

Thanks,

Miko?aj Kaszczyk


 

Hi Mikolaj, Rob, all.
And my five cents to this...
1. A faster way to check suspicious object is to use MPChecker at
2. Also preferably to check MPC`s Sky Coverage page at to check FOV of the main NEO surveys in the past dates. If this object was in FOV then chance that it is real go down very much.
3. Another problem is reporting this object to astro-officials. 1) There are no any special rules for SWAN candidates, so they should be reported directly to CBAT as usual. 2) But main problem in that SWAN instrument can generate a plenty of noises which we often recognize as real and often report it to CBAT. So this fact has influence on relation to such reports from astro-officials. 3) After reporting this object we must try to confirm it from another sources, ground or/and space-based instrumets. As for me, the best way is to use remote telescopes around the globe, for example, iTelescope network or Slooh.com.? 4) After an independent confirmation this object will be placed into PCCP with an usual procedure.??
4. Special attention to such detail as early disclosure of info about this object to wide astro-community, for example here. 1) Unlike SOHO comet hunting project, there is no "10 seconds" rule. So when you reveal this info another SWAN hunters at once lost any rights for discovery even they also have found it but have not reported it yet for some reasons. 2) For my opinion, a fair approach is to wait for preliminary confirmation and after appearing on PCCP game will over for others. 3) But in hard cases when you need help of astro-community for confirmation or discussion, as for me, the best way is wait a few days, accourding to the same reasons.?
5. Also must to say that SOHO spacecraft will be in operation until the and of 2025, so time for SWAN hunting is not so much.
Anyway, good luck you, Mikolaj in this field!
Best regards, Vladimir.


 

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Hi again,

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All very good additional advice from Vladimir – a very experienced SWAN discoverer. He makes a good point about checking the recent SkyCoverage maps: if a candidate object’s sky location has been recently visited by one or more of the major surveys (that routinely detect objects over 500 times dimmer than what SWAN can see), then the SWAN detection is probably spurious. That said, past comets first detected in SWAN tended to have poor solar elongations, and thus were in regions of the sky not regularly scanned by the surveys. For a related reason, you’re more likely to pick up a previously unknown comet in the southern hemisphere vs. the northern hemisphere since most telescopes (and visual comet hunters) are north of the equator.

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As Vladimir also points out, the discovery credit rules are different for SWAN vs. SOHO. For SOHO it often comes down to who can type the fastest after a couple images of a comet have been posted upon entering the C3 or C2 field of view. There is generally no such urgency for SWAN since the image cadence is 240x slower, and a real comet in SWAN is almost always transitioning from being invisible in one image to barely visible in the next. You are also “competing” with a much smaller pool of skilled comet hunters.

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Finally, there is a much greater chance of “seeing” a false comet in SWAN (vs. in SOHO), and I believe the MPC and CBAT both frown heavily on over-reporting of what turn out to be SWAN false positives. (And by over-reporting, I mean a false-to-real ratio greater than unity is NOT recommended!) It is far better to try to confirm the object from the ground before reporting, and today there are a lot more options for doing so than even five years ago.

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Best of luck!? --Rob

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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Vladimir Bezugly via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2024 7:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

Hi Mikolaj, Rob, all.

And my five cents to this...

1. A faster way to check suspicious object is to use MPChecker at

2. Also preferably to check MPC`s Sky Coverage page at to check FOV of the main NEO surveys in the past dates. If this object was in FOV then chance that it is real go down very much.

3. Another problem is reporting this object to astro-officials. 1) There are no any special rules for SWAN candidates, so they should be reported directly to CBAT as usual. 2) But main problem in that SWAN instrument can generate a plenty of noises which we often recognize as real and often report it to CBAT. So this fact has influence on relation to such reports from astro-officials. 3) After reporting this object we must try to confirm it from another sources, ground or/and space-based instrumets. As for me, the best way is to use remote telescopes around the globe, for example, iTelescope network or Slooh.com.? 4) After an independent confirmation this object will be placed into PCCP with an usual procedure.??

4. Special attention to such detail as early disclosure of info about this object to wide astro-community, for example here. 1) Unlike SOHO comet hunting project, there is no "10 seconds" rule. So when you reveal this info another SWAN hunters at once lost any rights for discovery even they also have found it but have not reported it yet for some reasons. 2) For my opinion, a fair approach is to wait for preliminary confirmation and after appearing on PCCP game will over for others. 3) But in hard cases when you need help of astro-community for confirmation or discussion, as for me, the best way is wait a few days, accourding to the same reasons.?

5. Also must to say that SOHO spacecraft will be in operation until the and of 2025, so time for SWAN hunting is not so much.

Anyway, good luck you, Mikolaj in this field!

Best regards, Vladimir.


 

And just one more thing... we here at SWAN are also in a fair competition not only with NEO surveys but with night-sky comet hunters that usually observe regions with low solar elongation. So time is a factor in this game.
Vladimir.


 
Edited

As I know, SOHO mission will be certainly working until end of 2025, but it might be extended – it goes very well – but the time will tell.
Thank you all for help!


 

is it 333P?


 

Good night, Mikolaj!
Close but not exactly. On 4/12 333P was 7-8 degrees above your mark.
On 3/12 this comet was in X-Y position at 335-196 (0,0 - upper left) - in the attached SWAN image it is easily visible.
Vladimir.


 
Edited

I think I have found something. The sky wasn't searched in that region and the object is seen in 2-3 images, but it then disappears behind this black thingy covering? Sun on the left.
?


 

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My advice is not to send anything to CBAT that only appears in 3 SWAN images; I would consider 4 images a bare minimum. Personally, I don’t see any moving objects that disappear behind the black solar-occulting region in recent images. If the object you’re considering is near pixel X=186, Y=283, then that is the blue supergiant star mu Sagittarii.? --Rob

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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of grymiki via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 8:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

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[Edited Message Follows]

I think I have found something. The sky wasn't searched in that region and the object is seen in 2-3 images, but it then disappears behind this black thingy covering? Sun on the left.

What to do?

And question no. 2 - i have diacritic sign in my name but CBAT email should contain plain ASCII code - it doesn't exist for my sign


 

On 12/9/24 11:30, grymiki via groups.io wrote:
And question no. 2 - i have diacritic sign in my name but CBAT email should contain plain ASCII code - it doesn't exist for my sign
I _think_ the advice given here applies (you may need to check with the CBAT folks) :



So for Miko?aj, send Miko\laj. (Ideally, they'd use Unicode. Though perhaps with an alternative name line allowed or required, so that (for example) the discoverer of the comet 2I/Borisov could report "my name is Г. В. Бори?сов, which transliterates to G. V. Borisov." I _would_ want that extra line, since I can't read Chinese, Hebrew, Thai, etc.)

-- Bill


 
Edited

swan_ARecl_sm_20241203_0002.gif - x 192 y 311
swan_ARecl_sm_20241204_0002.gif - x 189 y 306
swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002.gif - x 188 y 301


 

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I recommend using the _rfa versions of the images – especially when looking close to the solar occulting area, e.g.

swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002_rfa.gif. When you do so, you’ll see more unblocked sky and the exceedance

you’ve identified will no longer look very compelling.? --Rob

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of grymiki via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 11:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

swan_ARecl_sm_20241203_0002.gif - x 192 y 311
swan_ARecl_sm_20241204_0002.gif - x 189 y 306
swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002.gif - x 188 y 301


 

How do i get rfa versions?

Temat: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting
Data: 2024-12-09 21:08
Nadawca: "Matson, Rob D. via groups.io" <robert.d.matson@...>
Adresat: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>;



I recommend using the _rfa versions of the images – especially when looking close to the solar occulting area, e.g.

swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002_rfa.gif. When you do so, you’ll see more unblocked sky and the exceedance

you’ve identified will no longer look very compelling.? --Rob

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of grymiki via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 11:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

swan_ARecl_sm_20241203_0002.gif - x 192 y 311
swan_ARecl_sm_20241204_0002.gif - x 189 y 306
swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002.gif - x 188 y 301




 

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Hi Miki,

?

From the main page at (note the UNSECURE web address), go to the left column and click on “Summary images (old)”. Then at upper right, click on “COMET TRACKER’S MAPS”. Each date has two images – the first is the regular .gif, and the second is the _rfa.gif version with less area occulted. Note that the GIF movies that they create are of the _rfa.gif images.? --Rob

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Miki Kasz via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 12:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

How do i get rfa versions?

Temat: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting
Data: 2024-12-09 21:08
Nadawca: "Matson, Rob D. via groups.io" <robert.d.matson@...>
Adresat: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>;


I recommend using the _rfa versions of the images – especially when looking close to the solar occulting area, e.g.

swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002_rfa.gif. When you do so, you’ll see more unblocked sky and the exceedance

you’ve identified will no longer look very compelling.? --Rob

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of grymiki via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 11:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

swan_ARecl_sm_20241203_0002.gif - x 192 y 311
swan_ARecl_sm_20241204_0002.gif - x 189 y 306
swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002.gif - x 188 y 301

?


 

Site doesn't work for me

Temat: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting
Data: 2024-12-09 21:39
Nadawca: "Matson, Rob D. via groups.io" <robert.d.matson@...>
Adresat: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>;



Hi Miki,

?

From the main page at (note the UNSECURE web address), go to the left column and click on “Summary images (old)”. Then at upper right, click on “COMET TRACKER’S MAPS”. Each date has two images – the first is the regular .gif, and the second is the _rfa.gif version with less area occulted. Note that the GIF movies that they create are of the _rfa.gif images.? --Rob

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Miki Kasz via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 12:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

How do i get rfa versions?

Temat: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting
Data: 2024-12-09 21:08
Nadawca: "Matson, Rob D. via groups.io" <robert.d.matson@...>
Adresat: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>;


I recommend using the _rfa versions of the images – especially when looking close to the solar occulting area, e.g.

swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002_rfa.gif. When you do so, you’ll see more unblocked sky and the exceedance

you’ve identified will no longer look very compelling.? --Rob

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of grymiki via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 11:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

swan_ARecl_sm_20241203_0002.gif - x 192 y 311
swan_ARecl_sm_20241204_0002.gif - x 189 y 306
swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002.gif - x 188 y 301

?




 

开云体育

Your browser probably isn’t allowing you to access it because it’s http:// and not https://. I think I had to make an exception for the site so that Firefox would open it.? --Rob

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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Miki Kasz via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 12:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

Site doesn't work for me

Temat: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting
Data: 2024-12-09 21:39
Nadawca: "Matson, Rob D. via groups.io" <robert.d.matson@...>
Adresat: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>;


Hi Miki,

?

From the main page at (note the UNSECURE web address), go to the left column and click on “Summary images (old)”. Then at upper right, click on “COMET TRACKER’S MAPS”. Each date has two images – the first is the regular .gif, and the second is the _rfa.gif version with less area occulted. Note that the GIF movies that they create are of the _rfa.gif images.? --Rob

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Miki Kasz via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 12:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

How do i get rfa versions?

Temat: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting
Data: 2024-12-09 21:08
Nadawca: "Matson, Rob D. via groups.io" <robert.d.matson@...>
Adresat: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>;

I recommend using the _rfa versions of the images – especially when looking close to the solar occulting area, e.g.

swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002_rfa.gif. When you do so, you’ll see more unblocked sky and the exceedance

you’ve identified will no longer look very compelling.? --Rob

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of grymiki via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 11:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting

?

swan_ARecl_sm_20241203_0002.gif - x 192 y 311
swan_ARecl_sm_20241204_0002.gif - x 189 y 306
swan_ARecl_sm_20241205_0002.gif - x 188 y 301

?

?


 
Edited

http doesn't have to do anything with that. It says no requested URL found.
Also, I tried opening site on Firefox, doesn't work either.