P223bel = COMET 213P-B/VAN NESS
Hi all,
Last night G. Ventre at Sormano2 (L06) obtained images of P223bel now in PCCP.
The calculation of its orbit indicates to me the recovery of the comet 213P-B/VAN NESS.
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Piero Sicoli
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Hi Mike,, yes, after I sent the post I looked at path in SKYMAP and I realised 333P is moving at 4 degrees per day! So only those who read my message immediately would have stood a chance. I only got 1 frame (2- seconds exposure on my C11 @ f/4.7) with a Canon DSLR at ISO25,600 which I only used for centering comets before longer exposures.? It's got Mizar and Alcor at one end of the frame and the comet as a tiny smudge with a bit of tail like your shot has but it not worth publishing - think it was a 2-second exposure.? Then clouds rolled in! It was just dumb-luck that I spotted it :) David Editor,Astronomy Ireland magazine
On Friday 6 December 2024 at 20:27:42 GMT, Mike Olason via groups.io <molason@...> wrote:
David, it was cloudy last night here in the desert and with 333P moving almost 10'/hour across our skies I wonder if Mizar would have still been in my comet FOV by the time it rose in the desert. 333P on the morning of 2024 December 5 0935UT was magnitude G=10.7 as calculated from 4x10 second images taken thru a green filter in an aperture diameter of 2.4'. The comet has brightened 0.5 magnitudes in the last 4 days so it may reach magnitude 10 by December 9 when it makes its close approach to Earth at about 80.8 million kilometers. The comet was 83.6 million kilometers from Earth when these images were collected.
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David, it was cloudy last night here in the desert and with 333P moving almost 10'/hour across our skies I wonder if Mizar would have still been in my comet FOV by the time it rose in the desert. 333P on the morning of 2024 December 5 0935UT was magnitude G=10.7 as calculated from 4x10 second images taken thru a green filter in an aperture diameter of 2.4'. The comet has brightened 0.5 magnitudes in the last 4 days so it may reach magnitude 10 by December 9 when it makes its close approach to Earth at about 80.8 million kilometers. The comet was 83.6 million kilometers from Earth when these images were collected.
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Re: FW: [29P-ml] New intense outburst of 29P today (2024 November 21)
A few weeks after your reported outburst, 29P on the morning of 2024 December 5 0947UT was magnitude G=11.4 as calculated from 60x10 second images taken thru a green filter in an aperture diameter of 2.4', which includes the coma-tail complex. If one looks at the brighter part of the coma, aperture diameter of 1', the magnitude is G=12.3.
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And just one more thing... we here at SWAN are also in a fair competition not only with NEO surveys but with night-sky comet hunters that usually observe regions with low solar elongation. So time is a factor in this game.
Vladimir.
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Right now Dec.6d 4h UT comet 333P/LINEAR (mag9.6 says aerith.net) is just 40' from Mizar
Trying to get a photo of it from Ireland but pesky clouds drifting in!
Over to you guys!
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Hi again,
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All very good additional advice from Vladimir ¨C a very experienced SWAN discoverer. He makes a good point about checking the recent SkyCoverage maps: if a candidate object¡¯s sky location has been recently
visited by one or more of the major surveys (that routinely detect objects over 500 times dimmer than what SWAN can see), then the SWAN detection is probably spurious. That said, past comets first detected in SWAN tended to have poor solar elongations, and
thus were in regions of the sky not regularly scanned by the surveys. For a related reason, you¡¯re more likely to pick up a previously unknown comet in the southern hemisphere vs. the northern hemisphere since most telescopes (and visual comet hunters) are
north of the equator.
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As Vladimir also points out, the discovery credit rules are different for SWAN vs. SOHO. For SOHO it often comes down to who can type the fastest after a couple images of a comet have been posted upon entering
the C3 or C2 field of view. There is generally no such urgency for SWAN since the image cadence is 240x slower, and a real comet in SWAN is almost always transitioning from being invisible in one image to barely visible in the next. You are also ¡°competing¡±
with a much smaller pool of skilled comet hunters.
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Finally, there is a much greater chance of ¡°seeing¡± a false comet in SWAN (vs. in SOHO), and I believe the MPC and CBAT both frown heavily on over-reporting of what turn out to be SWAN false positives. (And
by over-reporting, I mean a false-to-real ratio greater than unity is NOT recommended!) It is far better to try to confirm the object from the ground before reporting, and today there are a lot more options for doing so than even five years ago.
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Best of luck!? --Rob
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Vladimir Bezugly via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2024 7:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting
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And my five cents to this...
1. A faster way to check suspicious object is to use MPChecker at
2. Also preferably to check MPC`s Sky Coverage page at to check FOV of the main NEO surveys in the past dates. If this object was in FOV then chance that it is real go down very much.
3. Another problem is reporting this object to astro-officials. 1) There are no any special rules for SWAN candidates, so they should be reported directly to CBAT as usual. 2) But main problem in that SWAN instrument can generate a plenty
of noises which we often recognize as real and often report it to CBAT. So this fact has influence on relation to such reports from astro-officials. 3) After reporting this object we must try to confirm it from another sources, ground or/and space-based instrumets.
As for me, the best way is to use remote telescopes around the globe, for example, iTelescope network or Slooh.com.? 4) After an independent confirmation this object will be placed into PCCP with an usual procedure.??
4. Special attention to such detail as early disclosure of info about this object to wide astro-community, for example here. 1) Unlike SOHO comet hunting project, there is no "10 seconds" rule. So when you reveal this info another SWAN
hunters at once lost any rights for discovery even they also have found it but have not reported it yet for some reasons. 2) For my opinion, a fair approach is to wait for preliminary confirmation and after appearing on PCCP game will over for others. 3) But
in hard cases when you need help of astro-community for confirmation or discussion, as for me, the best way is wait a few days, accourding to the same reasons.?
5. Also must to say that SOHO spacecraft will be in operation until the and of 2025, so time for SWAN hunting is not so much.
Anyway, good luck you, Mikolaj in this field!
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Hi Mikolaj, Rob, all.
And my five cents to this...
1. A faster way to check suspicious object is to use MPChecker at
2. Also preferably to check MPC`s Sky Coverage page at to check FOV of the main NEO surveys in the past dates. If this object was in FOV then chance that it is real go down very much.
3. Another problem is reporting this object to astro-officials. 1) There are no any special rules for SWAN candidates, so they should be reported directly to CBAT as usual. 2) But main problem in that SWAN instrument can generate a plenty of noises which we often recognize as real and often report it to CBAT. So this fact has influence on relation to such reports from astro-officials. 3) After reporting this object we must try to confirm it from another sources, ground or/and space-based instrumets. As for me, the best way is to use remote telescopes around the globe, for example, iTelescope network or Slooh.com.? 4) After an independent confirmation this object will be placed into PCCP with an usual procedure.??
4. Special attention to such detail as early disclosure of info about this object to wide astro-community, for example here. 1) Unlike SOHO comet hunting project, there is no "10 seconds" rule. So when you reveal this info another SWAN hunters at once lost any rights for discovery even they also have found it but have not reported it yet for some reasons. 2) For my opinion, a fair approach is to wait for preliminary confirmation and after appearing on PCCP game will over for others. 3) But in hard cases when you need help of astro-community for confirmation or discussion, as for me, the best way is wait a few days, accourding to the same reasons.?
5. Also must to say that SOHO spacecraft will be in operation until the and of 2025, so time for SWAN hunting is not so much.
Anyway, good luck you, Mikolaj in this field!
Best regards, Vladimir.
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Hi Miko?aj: SWAN images are a little harder to work with than SOHO LASCO C3 and C2 due to the low cadence (daily), low angular resolution, and high noise. I use this (unfortunately non-secure) site
to get the latest images, and/or GIF movie covering roughly the most recent 2 ? weeks:
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I then use ImageJ to open the animated .gif file, and then increase the contrast to improve visibility of comets just above the noise floor. There are currently three moving objects visible in SWAN: ?C/2023
A3 (Tsuchinshan-ATLAS), 333P/LINEAR, and Venus. Venus is easiest to see, moving right-to-left to the left of the sun centered near pixel X=156, Y=291 in the most recent 12/3 image. 333P/LINEAR is moving rapidly upward in the image to the upper right of the
sun @ X=336, Y=196 on 12/3. Finally, C/2023 A3 has been dimming rapidly in SWAN, still just visible on 12/3 at X=179, Y=238 to the sun¡¯s upper left.
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For a new discovery, I would wait until I had at least 4 solid images showing consistent motion before I¡¯d get too excited, and for very dim objects I might wait until I had 5 or even 6 before I¡¯d try to confirm
it telescopically. To do the latter, you¡¯ll need a way to convert SWAN¡¯s raw pixel coordinates to approximate right ascension and declination. I can provide you simple equations for doing that when you get to that point, and the next step after that is to
check if those positions correspond to an already known object. For that quick check, I like to use Seiichi Yoshida¡¯s website:
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If the candidate object¡¯s coordinates don¡¯t match anything bright (12th magnitude or brighter) on Seiichi¡¯s page, then it¡¯s time to create crude astrometry which can be used to generate a rough
orbit and predict the object¡¯s future positions. That¡¯s the hardest part of the problem, but I can walk you through it if you¡¯re interested.? --Rob
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of grymiki via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2024 9:12 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EXTERNAL: [comets-ml] SWAN comet hunting
?
I'm SOHO sungrazer comet hunter and I have found some of them, but now I also want to start looking for comets in SOHO/SWAN data.
Do you have any tips, how to start, how do I report and what do comets look like in these images?
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Hi all.
I'm SOHO sungrazer comet hunter and I have found some of them, but now I also want to start looking for comets in SOHO/SWAN data.
Do you have any tips, how to start, how do I report and what do comets look like in these images?
?
Thanks,
Miko?aj Kaszczyk
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Re: George Fox and comet of 1664
Hi David,
My home city is Lancaster in the NW of England. I know Lancaster castle well having walked past it thousands of times. There is also a Quaker School near the castle named The George Fox School. It is interesting that the great comet of 1664 was seen from Lancaster Castle probably in December 1664 when Isaac Newton was observing the same comet in London, and maybe thinking momentous thoughts.
Denis Buczynski
BAA
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------ Original Message ------ From: seargent@... To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 5th 2024, 01:01 Subject: [comets-ml] George Fox and comet of 1664 Because of my rising interest in Quakerism, I have recently been reading the Journal of the founder, George Fox, and have noticed a possible reference to the comet of 1664 (less likely, that of 1665). Fox was severely persecuted by the Establishment of the day and was in and put of prison for most of his life and during late 1664/early 1665 he was imprisoned? in Lancaster Castle, in a room open to the weather (and, presumably, to the night sky). During this time he wrote "I saw an? angel of the Lord with a glittering sword stretched southward, as though the court had been all on fire. Not long after, the wars broke out with Holland, the sickness broke forth and after the Fire of London. So the Lord's sword was drawn indeed." Fox was certainly a seer of visions, but maybe this one had an objective component? We are reminded of the record in Josephus that a "star like a sword" hung over Jerusalem in AD 66, almost certainly a reference to Halley's Comet of that year. No proof of course, but an interesting thought. Regards, David
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Re: George Fox and comet of 1664
Hi David,
Interesting story.
That of 1664 was indeed a spectacular comet and the supposition you propose
is certainly worthy of note.
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Piero Sicoli
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George Fox and comet of 1664
Because of my rising interest in Quakerism, I have recently been reading the Journal of the founder, George Fox, and have noticed a possible reference to the comet of 1664 (less likely, that of 1665).
Fox was severely persecuted by the Establishment of the day and was in and put of prison for most of his life and during late 1664/early 1665 he was imprisoned? in Lancaster Castle, in a room open to the weather (and, presumably, to the night sky). During this time he wrote "I saw an? angel of the Lord with a glittering sword stretched southward, as though the court had been all on fire. Not long after, the wars broke out with Holland, the sickness broke forth and after the Fire of London. So the Lord's sword was drawn indeed."
Fox was certainly a seer of visions, but maybe this one had an objective component? We are reminded of the record in Josephus that a "star like a sword" hung over Jerusalem in AD 66, almost certainly a reference to Halley's Comet of that year. No proof of course, but an interesting thought. Regards,
David
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NEW OBSERVATIONS ¨C 2024-11-17 / 22 / 28 / 29 / 30 - 2024-12-01
Dear Co-Observers,
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NEW OBSERVATIONS ¨C 2024-11-17 / 22 / 28 / 29 / 30 - 2024-12-01
Some very clear nights in the end of November to observe some comets.?
I have some drifting error in DEC.?
Overal the weather in Belgium is still really bad.?
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Images on the website!
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*** Equipment ***
0.30-m f/4 Newtonian reflector + CCD FLI Microline KAF3200ME / 10Micron GM2000HPS
Detailed information about equipment and scientific information inside the image.
Best Regards,
Mr. Pieter-Jan Dekelver
Oudsbergen, Belgium
observatorygromme@...
Observatory Gr?mme - MPC: D09 ¨C M09
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Re: 333P - MPC coordinates far off
Looks like it has been fixed already, as coordinates are now correct (refering
to MPEC 2024-VJ2 now).
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Am Wed, 27 Nov 2024 14:38:59 -0700
schrieb "Alan Hale" <ahale@...>:
Dear Thomas, all,
If you haven¡¯t already, you should submit a Jira ticket on this issue.
I¡¯ve noticed on a couple of previous occasions that the MPC Ephemeris Service seems to have an issue with this particular comet every time a new batch of the MPCs are prepared. On those occasions ¨C and it seems to have happened again ¨C the Service stripped the leading ¡°1¡± from the inclination (i.e., an inclination of 32 degrees vs. 132 degrees) from the orbital elements, and the the computed ephemeris positions are accordingly far off.
Sincerely,
Alan
Peter, Denis,
thank you for your remarks on this issue.
It is indeed strange that MPES is using such old data. FYI I had downloaded
an elements file from MPC about 4 weeks ago and there the reference was MPEC
2024-U18 - much better in line with current observations.
Best regards
Thomas
Am Wed, 27 Nov 2024 18:48:53 +0000 (GMT)
schrieb "Denis Buczynski via groups.io" <buczynski8166@...>:
Hi Thomas,
I imaged this comet last night 20241126_27.
I used the MPC ephemeris in Astrometrica to measure with.
My astrometry as submitted to MPC last night is attached. I hope this
helps.
Best wishes
Denis Buczynski
BAA Comet Section
333P| | | | CCD|I81
|2024-11-27T02:29:15Z |179.02611 |+31.70159 |0.11 |0.10 |
Gaia2|14.2 |0.02 | G| Gaia2| 9.9 |2.29 |4.2 | 270|0.14 |
34|K |
333P| | | | CCD|I81
|2024-11-27T02:34:03Z |179.03085 |+31.70860 |0.10 |0.08 |
Gaia2|14.2 |0.02 | G| Gaia2| 9.9 |2.30 |3.8 | 270|0.12 |
36|K |
333P| | | | CCD|I81
|2024-11-27T02:38:52Z |179.03512 |+31.71530 |0.08 |0.09 |
Gaia2|14.2 |0.02 | G| Gaia2| 9.9 |2.28 |3.8 | 270|0.12 |
31|K |
------ Original Message ------
From: t.lehmann@...
To: [email protected]
Cc: mrudenko@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 27th 2024, 18:34
Subject: [comets-ml] 333P - MPC coordinates far off
I am currently doing some work on older images and noticed a large
difference
in coordinates of 333P between MPC and JPL. While the latter are very
close to
the position of the comet in the image the former are off by almost 1
degree.
In addition to the wrong position the web form
does return a completely wrong motion vector as well.
Could anybody check this?
Thanks
Thomas
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Re: 333P - MPC coordinates far off
Dear Thomas, all, ? If you haven¡¯t already, you should submit a Jira ticket on this issue. ? I¡¯ve noticed on a couple of previous occasions that the MPC Ephemeris Service seems to have an issue with this particular comet every time a new batch of the MPCs are prepared. On those occasions ¨C and it seems to have happened again ¨C the Service stripped the leading ¡°1¡± from the inclination (i.e., an inclination of 32 degrees vs. 132 degrees) from the orbital elements, and the the computed ephemeris positions are accordingly far off. ? ? Sincerely, Alan ? thank you for your remarks on this issue. It is indeed strange that MPES is using such old data. FYI I had downloaded an elements file from MPC about 4 weeks ago and there the reference was MPEC 2024-U18 - much better in line with current observations.
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Am Wed, 27 Nov 2024 18:48:53 +0000 (GMT) I imaged this comet last night 20241126_27. ?? I used the MPC ephemeris in Astrometrica to measure with. My astrometry as submitted to MPC last night is attached. I hope this ???? 333P|?????????? |????????|????????????| CCD|I81 |2024-11-27T02:29:15Z?? |179.02611??|+31.70159??|0.11 |0.10??| Gaia2|14.2 |0.02??|?? G|?? Gaia2| 9.9??|2.29??|4.2?? | 270|0.14??| ???? 333P|?????????? |????????|????????????| CCD|I81 |2024-11-27T02:34:03Z?? |179.03085??|+31.70860??|0.10 |0.08??| Gaia2|14.2 |0.02??|?? G|?? Gaia2| 9.9??|2.30??|3.8?? | 270|0.12??| ???? 333P|?????????? |????????|????????????| CCD|I81 |2024-11-27T02:38:52Z?? |179.03512??|+31.71530??|0.08 |0.09??| Gaia2|14.2 |0.02??|?? G|?? Gaia2| 9.9??|2.28??|3.8?? | 270|0.12??| ???????? ------ Original Message ------ ???????? Sent: Wednesday, November 27th 2024, 18:34 ???????? Subject: [comets-ml] 333P - MPC coordinates far off ?? I am currently doing some work on older images and noticed a large ?? in coordinates of 333P between MPC and JPL. While the latter are very ?? the position of the comet in the image the former are off by almost 1 ?? In addition to the wrong position the web form ?? does return a completely wrong motion vector as well. ?? Could anybody check this?
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Re: 333P - MPC coordinates far off
Peter, Denis,
thank you for your remarks on this issue.
It is indeed strange that MPES is using such old data. FYI I had downloaded
an elements file from MPC about 4 weeks ago and there the reference was MPEC
2024-U18 - much better in line with current observations.
Best regards
Thomas
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Am Wed, 27 Nov 2024 18:48:53 +0000 (GMT)
schrieb "Denis Buczynski via groups.io" <buczynski8166@...>:
Hi Thomas,
I imaged this comet last night 20241126_27.
I used the MPC ephemeris in Astrometrica to measure with.
My astrometry as submitted to MPC last night is attached. I hope this
helps.
Best wishes
Denis Buczynski
BAA Comet Section
333P| | | | CCD|I81
|2024-11-27T02:29:15Z |179.02611 |+31.70159 |0.11 |0.10 |
Gaia2|14.2 |0.02 | G| Gaia2| 9.9 |2.29 |4.2 | 270|0.14 |
34|K |
333P| | | | CCD|I81
|2024-11-27T02:34:03Z |179.03085 |+31.70860 |0.10 |0.08 |
Gaia2|14.2 |0.02 | G| Gaia2| 9.9 |2.30 |3.8 | 270|0.12 |
36|K |
333P| | | | CCD|I81
|2024-11-27T02:38:52Z |179.03512 |+31.71530 |0.08 |0.09 |
Gaia2|14.2 |0.02 | G| Gaia2| 9.9 |2.28 |3.8 | 270|0.12 |
31|K |
------ Original Message ------
From: t.lehmann@...
To: [email protected]
Cc: mrudenko@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 27th 2024, 18:34
Subject: [comets-ml] 333P - MPC coordinates far off
I am currently doing some work on older images and noticed a large
difference
in coordinates of 333P between MPC and JPL. While the latter are very
close to
the position of the comet in the image the former are off by almost 1
degree.
In addition to the wrong position the web form
does return a completely wrong motion vector as well.
Could anybody check this?
Thanks
Thomas
|
Re: 333P - MPC coordinates far off
Hi Thomas,
I imaged this comet last night 20241126_27.
I used the MPC ephemeris in Astrometrica to measure with.
My astrometry as submitted to MPC last night is attached. I hope this helps.
Best wishes
Denis Buczynski
BAA Comet Section
333P| | | | CCD|I81 |2024-11-27T02:29:15Z |179.02611 |+31.70159 |0.11 |0.10 | Gaia2|14.2 |0.02 | G| Gaia2| 9.9 |2.29 |4.2 | 270|0.14 | 34|K |
333P| | | | CCD|I81 |2024-11-27T02:34:03Z |179.03085 |+31.70860 |0.10 |0.08 | Gaia2|14.2 |0.02 | G| Gaia2| 9.9 |2.30 |3.8 | 270|0.12 | 36|K |
333P| | | | CCD|I81 |2024-11-27T02:38:52Z |179.03512 |+31.71530 |0.08 |0.09 | Gaia2|14.2 |0.02 | G| Gaia2| 9.9 |2.28 |3.8 | 270|0.12 | 31|K |
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------ Original Message ------ From: t.lehmann@... To: [email protected]Cc: mrudenko@... Sent: Wednesday, November 27th 2024, 18:34 Subject: [comets-ml] 333P - MPC coordinates far off I am currently doing some work on older images and noticed a large difference in coordinates of 333P between MPC and JPL. While the latter are very close to the position of the comet in the image the former are off by almost 1 degree. In addition to the wrong position the web form does return a completely wrong motion vector as well. Could anybody check this? Thanks Thomas
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Re: 333P - MPC coordinates far off
Hi Thomas,
The ephemeris provided via the MPC includes:
"Perturbed ephemeris below is based on elements from MPEC 2020-L06."
so it is not surprising that the ephemeris is out compared to JPL. The MPC has produced newer elements but apparently not currently used in the MPES.
Peter
J95
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On 27/11/2024 18:34, Thomas Lehmann via groups.io wrote: I am currently doing some work on older images and noticed a large difference
in coordinates of 333P between MPC and JPL. While the latter are very close to
the position of the comet in the image the former are off by almost 1 degree.
In addition to the wrong position the web form
does return a completely wrong motion vector as well.
Could anybody check this?
Thanks
Thomas
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David Moore(Ireland)
Mike Olason
Denis Buczynski