?

?

?

?

On Feb 4, 2023, at 13:10, raj juggapah via <rajdata01@...> wrote:

Dear All

Help please !!!

I have a DX 7 initial version

Problem ...No sound generated at all ....is it a battery change that is required or else

Please extend your help .

Many Thanks

With kind regards,

Raj

From Mauritius

On Saturday, February 4, 2023, 02:15:04 AM GMT+4, <contact@...> wrote:

Nothing gets changed in the patch. This is not like a memory corruption problem.

What is happening is that what the display says does not match the
sound the machine makes. For example, the display says all output
levels are zero except OP1 with 99. I can save this just fine, that is
not the problem. The sound that comes out the machine is just not what
the display says.

The main CPU is responsible for editing and patch storage. The
secondary ("slave") CPU is responsible for sending the currently
playing sounds into the EGM, and the algorithm into the OPS2. This is
where the problem must be.

Using a software MIDI editor tells me nothing about what goes on with
the EGM. The MIDI editor can only talk to the main CPU and the main
CPU thinks everything is fine.

I suspect that the output levels and the L1, L2 and L3 levels are
combined because changing L1, L2 and L3 does nothing, just like
changing output levels do nothing

Changing L4 does work; if I set it to 99 on a carrier I get the drone
sound you would expect.

The other thing that _does_ work is setting envelope rates. If I take
an init patch and set R1 of OP2 and OP3 to 0, then I get the proper
sound (single operator sine wave).

My best guess is still that some but not all of the 32 bytes that go
into the EGM get corrupted. And it's always the same bytes that get
corrupted.

Op vr 3 feb. 2023 om 21:45 schreef belzrebuth s via
<belzrebuth=[email protected]>:

>
> I would troubleshoot with a midi editor like SoundQuest or whatever to see exactly what gets changed realtime.
>
> With an init patch you may be missing something.
>
> If you get the other operator levels back to zero do they stay at zero after saving?
>
> Can you make a patch? from scratch set levels back to zero and then set them like 10 20 30 then save and recall that patch?
>
> If you're able to recall that patch I would compare the original and the modified one (modified by the machine I mean) to verify my findings.
>
> If it's indeed *only* the OP output levels that get scrambled only then I would proceed further chasing that error.
>
> In fact one could take it even further and take a screenshot of a patch with ALL values set in a custom way and check what else gets changed before going into a single direction.
>
> On 2/3/2023 10:31 PM, José Juan wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I did a full recap of the TX802, and it sounded awesome afterwards.
>
> Electrolytic capacitors are dead on most 80s Yamaha Roland Korg gear.
>
> To change all capacitors is a PITA, but the machine gets new expected life.
>
> Just my suggest. Not every tech guy is capable of doing that without damaging the unit.
>
> Good luck, and take care.
>
> JJ
>
> El vie, 3 feb 2023, 21:24, <contact@...> escribió:
>>
>> Hello group,
>>
>> I would like to share a troubleshooting story I am in the middle of.
>>
>> I bought a broken TX802 on the internet. I knew it was broken when I bought it, I felt like taking a chance. The seller said it worked but has "digital noise".
>>
>> It turns out this TX802 is in pretty good shape. Everything works except that the sounds are wrong. There appears to be something wrong with the output levels of the operators.
>>
>> If I make an init sound, I am supposed to get a single operator sine wave with an organ envelope. The user interface shows the expected parameters. But when I play it, I get more or less the sound of algorithm 1 with all operators at 99. A harsh overmodulated FM sound. When I then change the algorithm to 32, I get a clean sine wave sound.
>>
>> It's a fascinating puzzle for me. Almost all the explanations I can come up with would make the TX sound more broken than it actually does. The EGM and OPS2 chips cannot be broken because they can make clean sounds. (I have a DX7II which is my reference.) Data is getting corrupted only in a very specific place, which happens to affect the output levels.
>>
>> My best guess at the moment is that there is a problem with the chip enable line of the EGM chip that causes it to latch bad output level data when it should not be reading data in the first place. But I have not seen evidence of that yet on my oscilloscope.
>>
>> I don't know if anyone else finds this interesting, but if there is someone who finds it interesting, they are probably on this list. :)
>>
>> Cheers, Jacob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

?

?

?

?

On Feb 4, 2023, at 13:10, raj juggapah via <rajdata01@...> wrote:

Dear All

Help please !!!

I have a DX 7 initial version

Problem ...No sound generated at all ....is it a battery change that is required or else

Please extend your help .

Many Thanks

With kind regards,

Raj

From Mauritius

On Saturday, February 4, 2023, 02:15:04 AM GMT+4, <contact@...> wrote:

Nothing gets changed in the patch. This is not like a memory corruption problem.

What is happening is that what the display says does not match the
sound the machine makes. For example, the display says all output
levels are zero except OP1 with 99. I can save this just fine, that is
not the problem. The sound that comes out the machine is just not what
the display says.

The main CPU is responsible for editing and patch storage. The
secondary ("slave") CPU is responsible for sending the currently
playing sounds into the EGM, and the algorithm into the OPS2. This is
where the problem must be.

Using a software MIDI editor tells me nothing about what goes on with
the EGM. The MIDI editor can only talk to the main CPU and the main
CPU thinks everything is fine.

I suspect that the output levels and the L1, L2 and L3 levels are
combined because changing L1, L2 and L3 does nothing, just like
changing output levels do nothing

Changing L4 does work; if I set it to 99 on a carrier I get the drone
sound you would expect.

The other thing that _does_ work is setting envelope rates. If I take
an init patch and set R1 of OP2 and OP3 to 0, then I get the proper
sound (single operator sine wave).

My best guess is still that some but not all of the 32 bytes that go
into the EGM get corrupted. And it's always the same bytes that get
corrupted.

Op vr 3 feb. 2023 om 21:45 schreef belzrebuth s via
<belzrebuth=[email protected]>:

>
> I would troubleshoot with a midi editor like SoundQuest or whatever to see exactly what gets changed realtime.
>
> With an init patch you may be missing something.
>
> If you get the other operator levels back to zero do they stay at zero after saving?
>
> Can you make a patch? from scratch set levels back to zero and then set them like 10 20 30 then save and recall that patch?
>
> If you're able to recall that patch I would compare the original and the modified one (modified by the machine I mean) to verify my findings.
>
> If it's indeed *only* the OP output levels that get scrambled only then I would proceed further chasing that error.
>
> In fact one could take it even further and take a screenshot of a patch with ALL values set in a custom way and check what else gets changed before going into a single direction.
>
> On 2/3/2023 10:31 PM, José Juan wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I did a full recap of the TX802, and it sounded awesome afterwards.
>
> Electrolytic capacitors are dead on most 80s Yamaha Roland Korg gear.
>
> To change all capacitors is a PITA, but the machine gets new expected life.
>
> Just my suggest. Not every tech guy is capable of doing that without damaging the unit.
>
> Good luck, and take care.
>
> JJ
>
> El vie, 3 feb 2023, 21:24, <contact@...> escribió:
>>
>> Hello group,
>>
>> I would like to share a troubleshooting story I am in the middle of.
>>
>> I bought a broken TX802 on the internet. I knew it was broken when I bought it, I felt like taking a chance. The seller said it worked but has "digital noise".
>>
>> It turns out this TX802 is in pretty good shape. Everything works except that the sounds are wrong. There appears to be something wrong with the output levels of the operators.
>>
>> If I make an init sound, I am supposed to get a single operator sine wave with an organ envelope. The user interface shows the expected parameters. But when I play it, I get more or less the sound of algorithm 1 with all operators at 99. A harsh overmodulated FM sound. When I then change the algorithm to 32, I get a clean sine wave sound.
>>
>> It's a fascinating puzzle for me. Almost all the explanations I can come up with would make the TX sound more broken than it actually does. The EGM and OPS2 chips cannot be broken because they can make clean sounds. (I have a DX7II which is my reference.) Data is getting corrupted only in a very specific place, which happens to affect the output levels.
>>
>> My best guess at the moment is that there is a problem with the chip enable line of the EGM chip that causes it to latch bad output level data when it should not be reading data in the first place. But I have not seen evidence of that yet on my oscilloscope.
>>
>> I don't know if anyone else finds this interesting, but if there is someone who finds it interesting, they are probably on this list. :)
>>
>> Cheers, Jacob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

?

?

?

On Feb 4, 2023, at 5:24, contact@... wrote:

Hello group,

I would like to share a troubleshooting story I am in the middle of.

I bought a broken TX802 on the internet. I knew it was broken when I bought it, I felt like taking a chance. The seller said it worked but has "digital noise".

It turns out this TX802 is in pretty good shape. Everything works except that the sounds are wrong. There appears to be something wrong with the output levels of the operators.

If I make an init sound, I am supposed to get a single operator sine wave with an organ envelope. The user interface shows the expected parameters. But when I play it, I get more or less the sound of algorithm 1 with all operators at 99. A harsh overmodulated FM sound. When I then change the algorithm to 32, I get a clean sine wave sound.

It's a fascinating puzzle for me. Almost all the explanations I can come up with would make the TX sound more broken than it actually does. The EGM and OPS2 chips cannot be broken because they can make clean sounds. (I have a DX7II which is my reference.) Data is getting corrupted only in a very specific place, which happens to affect the output levels.

My best guess at the moment is that there is a problem with the chip enable line of the EGM chip that causes it to latch bad output level data when it should not be reading data in the first place. But I have not seen evidence of that yet on my oscilloscope.

I don't know if anyone else finds this interesting, but if there is someone who finds it interesting, they are probably on this list. :)

Cheers, Jacob

On Feb 4, 2023, at 5:45, belzrebuth s via <belzrebuth@...> wrote:

I would troubleshoot with a midi editor like SoundQuest or whatever to see exactly what gets changed realtime.

With an init patch you may be missing something.

If you get the other operator levels back to zero do they stay at zero after saving?

Can you make a patch? from scratch set levels back to zero and then set them like 10 20 30 then save and recall that patch?

If you're able to recall that patch I would compare the original and the modified one (modified by the machine I mean) to verify my findings.

If it's indeed *only* the OP output levels that get scrambled only then I would proceed further chasing that error.

In fact one could take it even further and take a screenshot of a patch with ALL values set in a custom way and check what else gets changed before going into a single direction.

On 2/3/2023 10:31 PM, José Juan wrote:

Hi,

I did a full recap of the TX802, and it sounded awesome afterwards.

Electrolytic capacitors are dead on most 80s Yamaha Roland Korg gear.

To change all capacitors is a PITA, but the machine gets new expected life.

Just my suggest. Not every tech guy is capable of doing that without damaging the unit.

Good luck, and take care.?

JJ

El vie, 3 feb 2023, 21:24, <contact@...> escribió:

Hello group,

I would like to share a troubleshooting story I am in the middle of.

I bought a broken TX802 on the internet. I knew it was broken when I bought it, I felt like taking a chance. The seller said it worked but has "digital noise".

It turns out this TX802 is in pretty good shape. Everything works except that the sounds are wrong. There appears to be something wrong with the output levels of the operators.

If I make an init sound, I am supposed to get a single operator sine wave with an organ envelope. The user interface shows the expected parameters. But when I play it, I get more or less the sound of algorithm 1 with all operators at 99. A harsh overmodulated FM sound. When I then change the algorithm to 32, I get a clean sine wave sound.

It's a fascinating puzzle for me. Almost all the explanations I can come up with would make the TX sound more broken than it actually does. The EGM and OPS2 chips cannot be broken because they can make clean sounds. (I have a DX7II which is my reference.) Data is getting corrupted only in a very specific place, which happens to affect the output levels.

My best guess at the moment is that there is a problem with the chip enable line of the EGM chip that causes it to latch bad output level data when it should not be reading data in the first place. But I have not seen evidence of that yet on my oscilloscope.

I don't know if anyone else finds this interesting, but if there is someone who finds it interesting, they are probably on this list. :)

Cheers, Jacob

On Feb 4, 2023, at 5:31, José Juan <josejuangallego@...> wrote:

Hi,

I did a full recap of the TX802, and it sounded awesome afterwards.

Electrolytic capacitors are dead on most 80s Yamaha Roland Korg gear.

To change all capacitors is a PITA, but the machine gets new expected life.

Just my suggest. Not every tech guy is capable of doing that without damaging the unit.

Good luck, and take care.?

JJ

El vie, 3 feb 2023, 21:24, <contact@...> escribió:

Hello group,

I would like to share a troubleshooting story I am in the middle of.

I bought a broken TX802 on the internet. I knew it was broken when I bought it, I felt like taking a chance. The seller said it worked but has "digital noise".

It turns out this TX802 is in pretty good shape. Everything works except that the sounds are wrong. There appears to be something wrong with the output levels of the operators.

If I make an init sound, I am supposed to get a single operator sine wave with an organ envelope. The user interface shows the expected parameters. But when I play it, I get more or less the sound of algorithm 1 with all operators at 99. A harsh overmodulated FM sound. When I then change the algorithm to 32, I get a clean sine wave sound.

It's a fascinating puzzle for me. Almost all the explanations I can come up with would make the TX sound more broken than it actually does. The EGM and OPS2 chips cannot be broken because they can make clean sounds. (I have a DX7II which is my reference.) Data is getting corrupted only in a very specific place, which happens to affect the output levels.

My best guess at the moment is that there is a problem with the chip enable line of the EGM chip that causes it to latch bad output level data when it should not be reading data in the first place. But I have not seen evidence of that yet on my oscilloscope.

I don't know if anyone else finds this interesting, but if there is someone who finds it interesting, they are probably on this list. :)

Cheers, Jacob

?

?

I would troubleshoot with a midi editor like SoundQuest or whatever to see exactly what gets changed realtime.

With an init patch you may be missing something.

If you get the other operator levels back to zero do they stay at zero after saving?

Can you make a patch from scratch set levels back to zero and then set them like 10 20 30 then save and recall that patch?

If you're able to recall that patch I would compare the original and the modified one (modified by the machine I mean) to verify my findings.

If it's indeed *only* the OP output levels that get scrambled only then I would proceed further chasing that error.

In fact one could take it even further and take a screenshot of a patch with ALL values set in a custom way and check what else gets changed before going into a single direction.

On 2/3/2023 10:31 PM, José Juan wrote:

Hi,

I did a full recap of the TX802, and it sounded awesome afterwards.

Electrolytic capacitors are dead on most 80s Yamaha Roland Korg gear.

To change all capacitors is a PITA, but the machine gets new expected life.

Just my suggest. Not every tech guy is capable of doing that without damaging the unit.

Good luck, and take care.

JJ

El vie, 3 feb 2023, 21:24, <contact@...> escribió:

Hello group,

I would like to share a troubleshooting story I am in the middle of.

I bought a broken TX802 on the internet. I knew it was broken when I bought it, I felt like taking a chance. The seller said it worked but has "digital noise".

It turns out this TX802 is in pretty good shape. Everything works except that the sounds are wrong. There appears to be something wrong with the output levels of the operators.

If I make an init sound, I am supposed to get a single operator sine wave with an organ envelope. The user interface shows the expected parameters. But when I play it, I get more or less the sound of algorithm 1 with all operators at 99. A harsh overmodulated FM sound. When I then change the algorithm to 32, I get a clean sine wave sound.

It's a fascinating puzzle for me. Almost all the explanations I can come up with would make the TX sound more broken than it actually does. The EGM and OPS2 chips cannot be broken because they can make clean sounds. (I have a DX7II which is my reference.) Data is getting corrupted only in a very specific place, which happens to affect the output levels.

My best guess at the moment is that there is a problem with the chip enable line of the EGM chip that causes it to latch bad output level data when it should not be reading data in the first place. But I have not seen evidence of that yet on my oscilloscope.

I don't know if anyone else finds this interesting, but if there is someone who finds it interesting, they are probably on this list. :)

Cheers, Jacob

Hi,

I did a full recap of the TX802, and it sounded awesome afterwards.

Electrolytic capacitors are dead on most 80s Yamaha Roland Korg gear.

To change all capacitors is a PITA, but the machine gets new expected life.

Just my suggest. Not every tech guy is capable of doing that without damaging the unit.

Good luck, and take care.?

JJ

El vie, 3 feb 2023, 21:24, <contact@...> escribió:

Hello group,

I would like to share a troubleshooting story I am in the middle of.

I bought a broken TX802 on the internet. I knew it was broken when I bought it, I felt like taking a chance. The seller said it worked but has "digital noise".

It turns out this TX802 is in pretty good shape. Everything works except that the sounds are wrong. There appears to be something wrong with the output levels of the operators.

If I make an init sound, I am supposed to get a single operator sine wave with an organ envelope. The user interface shows the expected parameters. But when I play it, I get more or less the sound of algorithm 1 with all operators at 99. A harsh overmodulated FM sound. When I then change the algorithm to 32, I get a clean sine wave sound.

It's a fascinating puzzle for me. Almost all the explanations I can come up with would make the TX sound more broken than it actually does. The EGM and OPS2 chips cannot be broken because they can make clean sounds. (I have a DX7II which is my reference.) Data is getting corrupted only in a very specific place, which happens to affect the output levels.

My best guess at the moment is that there is a problem with the chip enable line of the EGM chip that causes it to latch bad output level data when it should not be reading data in the first place. But I have not seen evidence of that yet on my oscilloscope.

I don't know if anyone else finds this interesting, but if there is someone who finds it interesting, they are probably on this list. :)

Cheers, Jacob

I??d suggest connecting the V50 out to a midi analyzer to see if the V50 sends an All Notes Off message when you switch the Tx Channel.

?

Midi OX on a PC should tell you the truth. Then you can apply a midi filter in between the V50 midi out and Squarp midi in.

?

Fr?n: [email protected] <[email protected]> F?r José Juan
Skickat: den 10 november 2022 08:33
Till: [email protected]; emilito7@...
?mne: Re: [YamahaDX] V50 bug (or feature?) in ROM V1.1

?

Hello,?

?

Is it possible a midi message filtering? You can filter the data that feed the V50 and exclude other than note, aftertouch, modulation wheel .

?

Just a suggestion. AFAIK the v50 secuencer accepts external control, and that may mean the appearance of reset messages when receiving sequencer stop midi message.

?

Wish it helps

?

Cheers

JJ

?

El mié, 9 nov 2022 17:26, Yann Kieffer <emilito7@...> escribió:

Hello,

I am the happy, and quite recent, owner of a Yamaha V50.

I bought it from the first-hand owner, and the instrument is in near-perfect condition.

I am using it to create live music, in tandem with an external sequencer - a Squarp Pyramid, to be precise - but my issue should definitely be visible with other sequencers as well!

So it is a DAW-less setup, and I will try to describe it now.

I am using only the V50 and the sequencer, no other piece of gear. The V50 is acting as "master keyboard", meaning that I set "LOCAL" to "Off" in the MIDI settings, and use the keyboard of the V50 to send the note informations to the sequencer. Then the sequencer feeds back the V50 with the note information (both simultaneous, and recorded), and the V50 acts as a multi-timbral instrument, playing different MIDI tracks simultaneously. Of course, I am connecting them by MIDI DIN cables, one cable for each direction.

Now to my particular issue with this setup.

There are several ways to use the Pyramid sequencer; the way I am using it is by recording different phrases into tracks by changing the track on the master keyboard. I am not touching the sequencer; the sequencer is recording on all tracks simultaneously, and I actually use a footswitch to activate/deactivate recording. Although the sequencer is listening to the 16 MIDI channels, I am sending information to only one MIDI channel; and to choose that channel, I switch the MIDI channel on the master keyboard itself.

So in the case of the V50, I am actually changing the MIDI channel named "TCh" in the MIDI settings; Tch could stand for Transmitting Channel I suppose!

When doing so, the synth part of the V50 - the sound generators - actually shuts off at once the very moment I am changing the channel. Of course, it is not very nice when several parts are playing, and they all shut up at once. At least, the music keeps on playing with the next NOTE ON messages coming in, but the resulting sound is definitely not very musical.

I think it weird that the sound generator should stop when switching the Tch channel, especially with LOCAL set to Off. I think that maybe, Yamaha engineers where thinking in the context of LOCAL being on, that in the case that a musician switches channels before letting go or some notes, then the NOTE OFF messages would go to the wrong track, and the notes would be stuck. (I haven't seen a feature in the V50 to stop stuck notes, by the way...) This is why I am referring in the title of this message to a possible feature.

Now, my ROM version is 1.1. I understand that the latest ROM is 1.3. And so, naturally, I am wondering whether this latest ROM features the same bug/feature, or not.

I am referring to the firmware as "ROM", but I have no actual idea whether it is an EPROM or a "mask ROM"; and whether it is socketed or soldered to the board; since I haven't tried opening my V50 yet.

Does anybody know how V1.3 behaves with regard to stopping all notes of the sound engine?

Thank you for reading,
Yann

Hello,

I am the happy, and quite recent, owner of a Yamaha V50.

I bought it from the first-hand owner, and the instrument is in near-perfect condition.

I am using it to create live music, in tandem with an external sequencer - a Squarp Pyramid, to be precise - but my issue should definitely be visible with other sequencers as well!

So it is a DAW-less setup, and I will try to describe it now.

I am using only the V50 and the sequencer, no other piece of gear. The V50 is acting as "master keyboard", meaning that I set "LOCAL" to "Off" in the MIDI settings, and use the keyboard of the V50 to send the note informations to the sequencer. Then the sequencer feeds back the V50 with the note information (both simultaneous, and recorded), and the V50 acts as a multi-timbral instrument, playing different MIDI tracks simultaneously. Of course, I am connecting them by MIDI DIN cables, one cable for each direction.

Now to my particular issue with this setup.

There are several ways to use the Pyramid sequencer; the way I am using it is by recording different phrases into tracks by changing the track on the master keyboard. I am not touching the sequencer; the sequencer is recording on all tracks simultaneously, and I actually use a footswitch to activate/deactivate recording. Although the sequencer is listening to the 16 MIDI channels, I am sending information to only one MIDI channel; and to choose that channel, I switch the MIDI channel on the master keyboard itself.

So in the case of the V50, I am actually changing the MIDI channel named "TCh" in the MIDI settings; Tch could stand for Transmitting Channel I suppose!

When doing so, the synth part of the V50 - the sound generators - actually shuts off at once the very moment I am changing the channel. Of course, it is not very nice when several parts are playing, and they all shut up at once. At least, the music keeps on playing with the next NOTE ON messages coming in, but the resulting sound is definitely not very musical.

I think it weird that the sound generator should stop when switching the Tch channel, especially with LOCAL set to Off. I think that maybe, Yamaha engineers where thinking in the context of LOCAL being on, that in the case that a musician switches channels before letting go or some notes, then the NOTE OFF messages would go to the wrong track, and the notes would be stuck. (I haven't seen a feature in the V50 to stop stuck notes, by the way...) This is why I am referring in the title of this message to a possible feature.

Now, my ROM version is 1.1. I understand that the latest ROM is 1.3. And so, naturally, I am wondering whether this latest ROM features the same bug/feature, or not.

I am referring to the firmware as "ROM", but I have no actual idea whether it is an EPROM or a "mask ROM"; and whether it is socketed or soldered to the board; since I haven't tried opening my V50 yet.

Does anybody know how V1.3 behaves with regard to stopping all notes of the sound engine?

Thank you for reading,
Yann