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Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

Watchoo mean, Simon? I got a dial right THAR on my vacuum pump and it says plain as day that Ah get down to a pressure of ZERO. And that means there ain't a single molecule or atom of air in that thar vacyoom chamber. Beleeve yoo mee. Yessiree bob.
?
Guy Brandenburg, Washington, DC?


============================


From: Simon Quellen Field
To: VacuumX@...
Sent: Sun, June 19, 2011 7:13:14 PM
Subject: Re: [VacuumX] Re: "Cheap" vacuum

?

Nothing gets to zero.
;-)

Mine is getting to 70 microns (0.07 millimeters of mercury, 0.001 kiloPascals, 0.01 millibars).
Sounds like you might have a leak.

-----
Get a free science project every week! ""




On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 11:02 AM, brian whatcott <betwys1@...> wrote:
?

On 6/19/2011 10:38 AM, Simon Quellen Field wrote:
?
""
[Note to others on the list -- this is a great price on a nice pump.]

I bought the next step up (theoretically) - a 2 stage for? about $130.
Trouble is - when I obtained a vacuum gauge, it gets nowhere near zero!

Brian W
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

Nothing gets to zero.
;-)

Mine is getting to 70 microns (0.07 millimeters of mercury, 0.001 kiloPascals, 0.01 millibars).
Sounds like you might have a leak.

-----
Get a free science project every week! ""




On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 11:02 AM, brian whatcott <betwys1@...> wrote:
?

On 6/19/2011 10:38 AM, Simon Quellen Field wrote:
?
""
[Note to others on the list -- this is a great price on a nice pump.]

I bought the next step up (theoretically) - a 2 stage for? about $130.
Trouble is - when I obtained a vacuum gauge, it gets nowhere near zero!

Brian W
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

开云体育

On 6/19/2011 12:06 AM, Simon Quellen Field wrote:
?
D. Finding some low vapor pressure compound that is a liquid at room temp
? ? ?but a gas at some reasonable temperature (i.e. the steam idea, but with
? ? ?something that doesn't need to be chilled).
It is unnecessary to attempt to produce a vacuum lower than the vapor pressure of water at room temperature.? The device in question WORKS at the vapor pressure of room temperature water vapor.
The zeolite then gets hot, and the water container freezes down.? In fact, if the whole container is filled with a vacuum considerably higher than the vapor pressure of water of water at room temperature, a small part of the capacity of the zeolite is used to pull the rough? vacuum down further.??? A zeolite container with enough solids to sustain several cooling cycles and the initial pull-down cycle, which would be controled with a stop cock between water reservoir and zeolite reservoir could serve the purpose., I suspect.

Brian W
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

开云体育

On 6/19/2011 10:38 AM, Simon Quellen Field wrote:
?
""
[Note to others on the list -- this is a great price on a nice pump.]

I bought the next step up (theoretically) - a 2 stage for? about $130.
Trouble is - when I obtained a vacuum gauge, it gets nowhere near zero!

Brian W
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

2. Liquid dense metals flowing down a meter or two of pipe.
That is the option. But what metal? I only know the mercury and that is toxic and near inposible to get.

I suggested solder.

4. Using a port from a running internal combustion engine.
not enought vacuum

What we have not considered yet is a staged system.
Use some easy and cheap methods like this one to get as far as possible,
then use some other methods to get farther along.
?
5. Buying a $130 roughing pump and a $30 inverter for a car.
I like to buy vacuum pump for $130. Cheapest I can get here is $350.

Don't be silly. That's what the Internet is for.
""
[Note to others on the list -- this is a great price on a nice pump.]
Some things we haven't (yet) discussed:
A. Building a big syringe and using a car jack to pull a vacuum with it.
If I understand it right, that means pump with only 1 stroke. Then the syringe should have 1000 litre volume. If I expand 5 litre of 1013mbar? for 200 times I got 1000 litre and 5 mbar. Just little bulky.

You can add a valve and pump as many times as you like.?
B. Filling a tank with oxygen and steel wool and igniting the wool electrically.
Don't know. Seem to be very hot.

Who cares? This is a separate tank.?
D. Finding some low vapor pressure compound that is a liquid at room temp
? ? ?but a gas at some reasonable temperature (i.e. the steam idea, but with
? ? ?something that doesn't need to be chilled).
Just can't find it right one.

Try candle wax.
?
E. Buying some used car batteries and connecting the pump and inverter to those
? ? ?so the car can be farther away from the cabin, and only used occasionally to
? ? ?recharge the batteries.
Car bateries used as deep cycle will last wery short time.

I'm suggesting using 'dead' batteries that are sold for their recycling value.
They can't start a car, but they will run the vacuum pump just fine.
Of course another cheap option is just a 50 meter extension cord from where you parked the
car, or putting the fridge in the car and walking to the beer.?
F: Building a 33 foot high tower out of something cheap and use water and gravity
? ? ?to draw the vacuum (has the same vapor pressure problem -- needs cooling).
Actualy don't need tower as the lodge is on the steep hill. But the wapour presure of water is to high. So it's need to be chiled and now we have chicken and egg problem. I need that to chill not to use cold just to do it.

So use ethylene or propylene glycol. Even mixed 50/50 with water they will lower the vapor pressure
enough. Add some sand if automotive anti-freeze is too expensive.
G: Maybe that dense mud they use for drilling wells (barium sulfate or hematite)
? ? ?could be used so instead of a tower, you can just put it on the roof of the cabin.
? ? ?With mercury you could just use 800 millimeters, but a slurry of barium sulfate
? ? ?is 2.5 times heavier than water, so the roof only has to be 13 feet high. Using
? ? ?ethylene glycol instead of water would get the vapor pressure down to a quarter
? ? ?of what water has. ?So fill a tank with ethylene glycol and barium sulfate mud on
? ? ?the roof, and run a pipe down to a tank on the ground, and open a valve. Both
? ? ?barium sulfate and ethylene glycol are cheap. Glycerin will get you even lower vapor
? ? ?pressure, and olive oil even lower still. Safflower oil may be the best. It won't
? ? ?take a lot of oil -- the mud will mostly be barium sulfate or hematite. Hematite
? ? ?(rust powder) is the heavier of the two.
Hmm that seems possible to do. Just don't know where to get that stuff. So just need to get something dense and with low vapour presure. Oils seem little to light. aprox 850kg/m3 but have wapour pressure far below 1 mbar. So just something heavier, nontoxic, and cheaply available.

Olive oil is fine, just add some heavy powder:
""
""
A dollar a pound for 30 pounds. That would make 3 liters of very heavy olive oil.
Use a valve and cycle it as many times as you like.

If you connect the bottom of the pipe to a cheap pump (like the car intake port pump, or a water
aspirator pump) then you need even less than 13 feet of elevation. [This is the staging idea I
mentioned earlier.]
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

pump filter, Aspirator (PY910) and a 12 water pump like found at harbor freight with garden hose fittings for $29.00 will give with cold water a 28.5+ vacuum I use one for vacuum filtering.Ed

Our Price: $15.99?ea

From: Slavko Kocjancic
To: VacuumX@...
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: [VacuumX] Re: "Cheap" vacuum

?
S, Simon Quellen Field pi?e:
I agree with?Christopher Erickson.

However, I also frequently encounter people who really want to do something
a particular way, even if there are better ways to do it.

Hello...
Wery close. I want to do/MAKE that and not to buy. I love to DIY stuf.? Christopher Erickson point to the RV rafrigerator with wery good link how that stuf work. The problem is that here is near none used refrigerator available and new cost over $500. And that is just to much. For day or two I can live just with insulated box and ice pack from home, but wher I run out of ice I have no way to get it (buy or whatewer). So I need some way to recharge it.

We might try to talk someone out of riding a bicycle across the country, pointing
out that it is cheaper to fly, much faster, and that while exercise is good for the
health in moderation, when done to excess it is harmful, especially on public
roads behind and among motorists. But maybe the whole point was to do it
on a bicycle.

What if just want to do that without fossil fuel. (not need to be bycicle)


I was one of the first to try to get him to his goal in more efficient ways.
But since this is a list for people interested in vacuum, and he really wants to cool
his beer in a homemade vacuum assisted zeolite refrigerator, let's just pretend that
he won't win some contest unless the task is done using a vacuum and zeolites,
and see what we can do to help. Whatever tricks we devise to produce a cheap
vacuum just might be useful to someone else.

So far we have suggested:
1. Steam condensed by ice until the required vapor pressure is reached.
If we are talking water steam then should be chiled down with no chiler?!?

2. Liquid dense metals flowing down a meter or two of pipe.
That is the option. But what metal? I only know the mercury and that is toxic and near inposible to get.

3. Evacuating several bottles and connecting them one at a time to the chamber.
Someone else calculated that is to bulky.

4. Using a port from a running internal combustion engine.
not enought vacuum

5. Buying a $130 roughing pump and a $30 inverter for a car.
I like to buy vacuum pump for $130. Cheapest I can get here is $350.


I think we've talked him out of trying to pump that much volume by hand with a small
hand pump.
Is 5 litre to much for hand pump? I don't know. Just point me to the right direction.


Some things we haven't (yet) discussed:
A. Building a big syringe and using a car jack to pull a vacuum with it.
If I understand it right, that means pump with only 1 stroke. Then the syringe should have 1000 litre volume. If I expand 5 litre of 1013mbar? for 200 times I got 1000 litre and 5 mbar. Just little bulky.

B. Filling a tank with oxygen and steel wool and igniting the wool electrically.
Don't know. Seem to be very hot.

C. Filling the tank with ammonia gas and opening a valve to a water bottle.
Amonia is poison to avoid it.

D. Finding some low vapor pressure compound that is a liquid at room temp
? ? ?but a gas at some reasonable temperature (i.e. the steam idea, but with
? ? ?something that doesn't need to be chilled).
Just can't find it right one.

E. Buying some used car batteries and connecting the pump and inverter to those
? ? ?so the car can be farther away from the cabin, and only used occasionally to
? ? ?recharge the batteries.
Car bateries used as deep cycle will last wery short time.

F: Building a 33 foot high tower out of something cheap and use water and gravity
? ? ?to draw the vacuum (has the same vapor pressure problem -- needs cooling).
Actualy don't need tower as the lodge is on the steep hill. But the wapour presure of water is to high. So it's need to be chiled and now we have chicken and egg problem. I need that to chill not to use cold just to do it.

G: Maybe that dense mud they use for drilling wells (barium sulfate or hematite)
? ? ?could be used so instead of a tower, you can just put it on the roof of the cabin.
? ? ?With mercury you could just use 800 millimeters, but a slurry of barium sulfate
? ? ?is 2.5 times heavier than water, so the roof only has to be 13 feet high. Using
? ? ?ethylene glycol instead of water would get the vapor pressure down to a quarter
? ? ?of what water has. ?So fill a tank with ethylene glycol and barium sulfate mud on
? ? ?the roof, and run a pipe down to a tank on the ground, and open a valve. Both
? ? ?barium sulfate and ethylene glycol are cheap. Glycerin will get you even lower vapor
? ? ?pressure, and olive oil even lower still. Safflower oil may be the best. It won't
? ? ?take a lot of oil -- the mud will mostly be barium sulfate or hematite. Hematite
? ? ?(rust powder) is the heavier of the two.
Hmm that seems possible to do. Just don't know where to get that stuff. So just need to get something dense and with low vapour presure. Oils seem little to light. aprox 850kg/m3 but have wapour pressure far below 1 mbar. So just something heavier, nontoxic, and cheaply available.


There are a lot of really bright people on this list -- we should be able to come up with
a bunch of fun cheap ways to pull a vacuum.

I think so. That is reason why I post the question. And waiting response how to do not how to buy.

That's the best post in this thread in my opinion. Thanks.

Slavko.
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

Slavko Kocjancic
 

开云体育

S, Simon Quellen Field pi?e:
I agree with?Christopher Erickson.

However, I also frequently encounter people who really want to do something
a particular way, even if there are better ways to do it.

Hello...
Wery close. I want to do/MAKE that and not to buy. I love to DIY stuf.? Christopher Erickson point to the RV rafrigerator with wery good link how that stuf work. The problem is that here is near none used refrigerator available and new cost over $500. And that is just to much. For day or two I can live just with insulated box and ice pack from home, but wher I run out of ice I have no way to get it (buy or whatewer). So I need some way to recharge it.

We might try to talk someone out of riding a bicycle across the country, pointing
out that it is cheaper to fly, much faster, and that while exercise is good for the
health in moderation, when done to excess it is harmful, especially on public
roads behind and among motorists. But maybe the whole point was to do it
on a bicycle.

What if just want to do that without fossil fuel. (not need to be bycicle)


I was one of the first to try to get him to his goal in more efficient ways.
But since this is a list for people interested in vacuum, and he really wants to cool
his beer in a homemade vacuum assisted zeolite refrigerator, let's just pretend that
he won't win some contest unless the task is done using a vacuum and zeolites,
and see what we can do to help. Whatever tricks we devise to produce a cheap
vacuum just might be useful to someone else.

So far we have suggested:
1. Steam condensed by ice until the required vapor pressure is reached.
If we are talking water steam then should be chiled down with no chiler?!?

2. Liquid dense metals flowing down a meter or two of pipe.
That is the option. But what metal? I only know the mercury and that is toxic and near inposible to get.

3. Evacuating several bottles and connecting them one at a time to the chamber.
Someone else calculated that is to bulky.

4. Using a port from a running internal combustion engine.
not enought vacuum

5. Buying a $130 roughing pump and a $30 inverter for a car.
I like to buy vacuum pump for $130. Cheapest I can get here is $350.


I think we've talked him out of trying to pump that much volume by hand with a small
hand pump.
Is 5 litre to much for hand pump? I don't know. Just point me to the right direction.


Some things we haven't (yet) discussed:
A. Building a big syringe and using a car jack to pull a vacuum with it.
If I understand it right, that means pump with only 1 stroke. Then the syringe should have 1000 litre volume. If I expand 5 litre of 1013mbar? for 200 times I got 1000 litre and 5 mbar. Just little bulky.

B. Filling a tank with oxygen and steel wool and igniting the wool electrically.
Don't know. Seem to be very hot.

C. Filling the tank with ammonia gas and opening a valve to a water bottle.
Amonia is poison to avoid it.

D. Finding some low vapor pressure compound that is a liquid at room temp
? ? ?but a gas at some reasonable temperature (i.e. the steam idea, but with
? ? ?something that doesn't need to be chilled).
Just can't find it right one.

E. Buying some used car batteries and connecting the pump and inverter to those
? ? ?so the car can be farther away from the cabin, and only used occasionally to
? ? ?recharge the batteries.
Car bateries used as deep cycle will last wery short time.

F: Building a 33 foot high tower out of something cheap and use water and gravity
? ? ?to draw the vacuum (has the same vapor pressure problem -- needs cooling).
Actualy don't need tower as the lodge is on the steep hill. But the wapour presure of water is to high. So it's need to be chiled and now we have chicken and egg problem. I need that to chill not to use cold just to do it.

G: Maybe that dense mud they use for drilling wells (barium sulfate or hematite)
? ? ?could be used so instead of a tower, you can just put it on the roof of the cabin.
? ? ?With mercury you could just use 800 millimeters, but a slurry of barium sulfate
? ? ?is 2.5 times heavier than water, so the roof only has to be 13 feet high. Using
? ? ?ethylene glycol instead of water would get the vapor pressure down to a quarter
? ? ?of what water has. ?So fill a tank with ethylene glycol and barium sulfate mud on
? ? ?the roof, and run a pipe down to a tank on the ground, and open a valve. Both
? ? ?barium sulfate and ethylene glycol are cheap. Glycerin will get you even lower vapor
? ? ?pressure, and olive oil even lower still. Safflower oil may be the best. It won't
? ? ?take a lot of oil -- the mud will mostly be barium sulfate or hematite. Hematite
? ? ?(rust powder) is the heavier of the two.
Hmm that seems possible to do. Just don't know where to get that stuff. So just need to get something dense and with low vapour presure. Oils seem little to light. aprox 850kg/m3 but have wapour pressure far below 1 mbar. So just something heavier, nontoxic, and cheaply available.


There are a lot of really bright people on this list -- we should be able to come up with
a bunch of fun cheap ways to pull a vacuum.

I think so. That is reason why I post the question. And waiting response how to do not how to buy.

That's the best post in this thread in my opinion. Thanks.

Slavko.
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

D. Finding some low vapor pressure compound that is a liquid at room temp
? ? ?but a gas at some reasonable temperature (i.e. the steam idea, but with
? ? ?something that doesn't need to be chilled).

Maybe paraffin wax (candle wax) would do the trick. Heat it to a vapor, fill a tank
with it, and cool the tank with running water. Decently low vapor pressure too. Boiling
point is around 350 Celsius. If only it wasn't flammable...

-----
Get a free science project every week! ""




2011/6/18 Simon Quellen Field <sfield@...>
D. Finding some low vapor pressure compound that is a liquid at room temp
? ? ?but a gas at some reasonable temperature (i.e. the steam idea, but with
? ? ?something that doesn't need to be chilled).
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

I agree with?Christopher Erickson.

However, I also frequently encounter people who really want to do something
a particular way, even if there are better ways to do it.

We might try to talk someone out of riding a bicycle across the country, pointing
out that it is cheaper to fly, much faster, and that while exercise is good for the
health in moderation, when done to excess it is harmful, especially on public
roads behind and among motorists. But maybe the whole point was to do it
on a bicycle.

I was one of the first to try to get him to his goal in more efficient ways.
But since this is a list for people interested in vacuum, and he really wants to cool
his beer in a homemade vacuum assisted zeolite refrigerator, let's just pretend that
he won't win some contest unless the task is done using a vacuum and zeolites,
and see what we can do to help. Whatever tricks we devise to produce a cheap
vacuum just might be useful to someone else.

So far we have suggested:
1. Steam condensed by ice until the required vapor pressure is reached.
2. Liquid dense metals flowing down a meter or two of pipe.
3. Evacuating several bottles and connecting them one at a time to the chamber.
4. Using a port from a running internal combustion engine.
5. Buying a $130 roughing pump and a $30 inverter for a car.

I think we've talked him out of trying to pump that much volume by hand with a small
hand pump.

Some things we haven't (yet) discussed:
A. Building a big syringe and using a car jack to pull a vacuum with it.
B. Filling a tank with oxygen and steel wool and igniting the wool electrically.
C. Filling the tank with ammonia gas and opening a valve to a water bottle.
D. Finding some low vapor pressure compound that is a liquid at room temp
? ? ?but a gas at some reasonable temperature (i.e. the steam idea, but with
? ? ?something that doesn't need to be chilled).
E. Buying some used car batteries and connecting the pump and inverter to those
? ? ?so the car can be farther away from the cabin, and only used occasionally to
? ? ?recharge the batteries.
F: Building a 33 foot high tower out of something cheap and use water and gravity
? ? ?to draw the vacuum (has the same vapor pressure problem -- needs cooling).
G: Maybe that dense mud they use for drilling wells (barium sulfate or hematite)
? ? ?could be used so instead of a tower, you can just put it on the roof of the cabin.
? ? ?With mercury you could just use 800 millimeters, but a slurry of barium sulfate
? ? ?is 2.5 times heavier than water, so the roof only has to be 13 feet high. Using
? ? ?ethylene glycol instead of water would get the vapor pressure down to a quarter
? ? ?of what water has. ?So fill a tank with ethylene glycol and barium sulfate mud on
? ? ?the roof, and run a pipe down to a tank on the ground, and open a valve. Both
? ? ?barium sulfate and ethylene glycol are cheap. Glycerin will get you even lower vapor
? ? ?pressure, and olive oil even lower still. Safflower oil may be the best. It won't
? ? ?take a lot of oil -- the mud will mostly be barium sulfate or hematite. Hematite
? ? ?(rust powder) is the heavier of the two.

There are a lot of really bright people on this list -- we should be able to come up with
a bunch of fun cheap ways to pull a vacuum.




-----
Get a free science project every week! ""




2011/6/18 Christopher Erickson <christopher.k.erickson@...>

?

It isn't an emotional issue, just a pragmatic one.
?
You say you want a solution but have shot down every single last practical suggestion that anyone has?come up with for?you.?? What people here?have been doing is focusing on practical solutions to the problem, not narrowly fixating on a particular type of solution.
?
I still say that you should just get hold of a new or used RV (evaporative) refrigerator.? Depending on the power options installed, they can run off of propane, natural gas,?120VAC, 12VDC or even just the heat of a wood fire or vehicle engine exhaust or just about any other heat source ducted into its evaporator?stack.
?
?
Or you could take an automotive air conditioning unit and hook its compressor up to an exercise bicycle.
?
I, for one, am now finished with this conversation thread.
?
I wish you all the best with your project.

?
"My advice is free and worth every penny!"

-Christopher Erickson
Telecom Engineer
Waikoloa, HI 96738, N19°57' W155°47'
16" f10 Meade LX200GPS SCT
10" f3.8 Newt, Losmandy G-11 & Autostar 497
120ED f8 Orion, Vixen GP-DX & Autostar 497
5" f8 SCT Meade, iOptron Cube Pro
80ED f8 Orion, Vixen GP & Autostar 497





?

From: VacuumX@... [mailto:VacuumX@...] On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 2:29 AM
To: VacuumX@...

Subject: Re: [VacuumX] Re: "Cheap" vacuum

S, Thomas Janstrom pi?e:
I agree Ed, plenty of ways to skin this cat. The easier ones don't involve vacuum and can be done for low cost too.

What you guys hate vacuum?



On that note wonder what the humidity is where he is, if it's low enough then he might get away with water wicking through hessian for an evaporative chiller box set up. Was the way it was done in the Aussie outback pre refrigeration times.... Kept the butter solid in summer by all accounts!

Thomas.
That's correct. Just have little too much humidity here. Can't go under 20 centigrade. (just calculated not tried)
But I rely on same efect. Just want to evaporate water. And to force watter to evaporate at room temperature the vacuum is needed. 1kg evaporated water will suck 2257 kJ of energy. In daily basis that mean at least 25W of cooling power (the best thermoelectric cooler is around 5W).


I didn't say that this idea is the best. Just didn't find better one. (to be available and cheap enought)
Re: cleaning and replacing oil in roughing and diffusion pumps

 

开云体育

Guy,

All depend on your work intensity and accuracy. Do not open diff.pump at pressure above specified,? provide right water cooling and heaters power, keep a specified baking pressure and it will work years. Sometimes you need just add a little bit oil. If you see that your diffusion pump losts its pumping speed or ultimate vacuum - check and replace the oil. A good oil must be light yellow or clear. If oil is very dark or black - replace it. If you see a black coated spots inside the pump - your oil is burnt, carefully clean the pump and replace oil.

Roughing pump is the same. There must be a glass window to monitor oil level and its quality. Oil must be transparent (light yellow or light brown). If it is brown and turbid - replace it. If it is dark yellow,? turbid and looks bulbed - there may be a lot of water in the oil, just let it to work a couple hours with opened gas ballast valve to dry the oil. Roughing valve to your vacuum chamber must be closed.

Hope it helps.

Vladimir

On 6/18/2011 2:26 PM, Guy Brandenburg wrote:

How often do you experts clean out and replace the oil in a roughing pump?
How about in a diffusion pump?
We did the Diff pump about 10 years ago, and found all kinds of interesting stuff had fallen into the trap. The roughing pump (a Welch, IIRC) probably hasn't been cleaned out in over 20 years.
Guy
cleaning and replacing oil in roughing and diffusion pumps

 

How often do you experts clean out and replace the oil in a roughing pump?
How about in a diffusion pump?
We did the Diff pump about 10 years ago, and found all kinds of interesting stuff had fallen into the trap. The roughing pump (a Welch, IIRC) probably hasn't been cleaned out in over 20 years.
Guy
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

开云体育

It isn't an emotional issue, just a pragmatic one.
?
You say you want a solution but have shot down every single last practical suggestion that anyone has?come up with for?you.?? What people here?have been doing is focusing on practical solutions to the problem, not narrowly fixating on a particular type of solution.
?
I still say that you should just get hold of a new or used RV (evaporative) refrigerator.? Depending on the power options installed, they can run off of propane, natural gas,?120VAC, 12VDC or even just the heat of a wood fire or vehicle engine exhaust or just about any other heat source ducted into its evaporator?stack.
?
?
Or you could take an automotive air conditioning unit and hook its compressor up to an exercise bicycle.
?
I, for one, am now finished with this conversation thread.
?
I wish you all the best with your project.
?
"My advice is free and worth every penny!"

-Christopher Erickson
Telecom Engineer
Waikoloa, HI 96738, N19°57' W155°47'
16" f10 Meade LX200GPS SCT
10" f3.8 Newt, Losmandy G-11 & Autostar 497
120ED f8 Orion, Vixen GP-DX & Autostar 497
5" f8 SCT Meade, iOptron Cube Pro
80ED f8 Orion, Vixen GP & Autostar 497
www.data-plumber.com
www.roboscope.net



?

From: VacuumX@... [mailto:VacuumX@...] On Behalf Of Slavko Kocjancic
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 2:29 AM
To: VacuumX@...
Subject: Re: [VacuumX] Re: "Cheap" vacuum

S, Thomas Janstrom pi?e:
I agree Ed, plenty of ways to skin this cat. The easier ones don't involve vacuum and can be done for low cost too.

What you guys hate vacuum?



On that note wonder what the humidity is where he is, if it's low enough then he might get away with water wicking through hessian for an evaporative chiller box set up. Was the way it was done in the Aussie outback pre refrigeration times.... Kept the butter solid in summer by all accounts!

Thomas.
That's correct. Just have little too much humidity here. Can't go under 20 centigrade. (just calculated not tried)
But I rely on same efect. Just want to evaporate water. And to force watter to evaporate at room temperature the vacuum is needed. 1kg evaporated water will suck 2257 kJ of energy. In daily basis that mean at least 25W of cooling power (the best thermoelectric cooler is around 5W).


I didn't say that this idea is the best. Just didn't find better one. (to be available and cheap enought)
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

Slavko Kocjancic
 

开云体育

S, Thomas Janstrom pi?e:
I agree Ed, plenty of ways to skin this cat. The easier ones don't involve vacuum and can be done for low cost too.

What you guys hate vacuum?



On that note wonder what the humidity is where he is, if it's low enough then he might get away with water wicking through hessian for an evaporative chiller box set up. Was the way it was done in the Aussie outback pre refrigeration times.... Kept the butter solid in summer by all accounts!

Thomas.
That's correct. Just have little too much humidity here. Can't go under 20 centigrade. (just calculated not tried)
But I rely on same efect. Just want to evaporate water. And to force watter to evaporate at room temperature the vacuum is needed. 1kg evaporated water will suck 2257 kJ of energy. In daily basis that mean at least 25W of cooling power (the best thermoelectric cooler is around 5W).


I didn't say that this idea is the best. Just didn't find better one. (to be available and cheap enought)
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

Slavko Kocjancic
 

开云体育

S, ed ward pi?e:
Get a thick foam cooler and a thermoelectric cooling device and run it off you car or a couple batterys and a solar panel


Did you ever tested thermoelectric element?
These one on link claimed input of 65W of electricity. And peltie'r element are aprox 30% eficient. But that doesn't mean 65W*0.3 =19.5W! (it's 30% carnot efficient) I found peltier on the web claimed to have 160W electric input and 80W cooling efect!. But the Sadi Carnot tell's that is just isn't possible. I have measured Good one peltie element with 60W power input. The cooling efect is just little more 5W!
0.5L water in insulated bowl colled with proper colled peltie element (hot side keept at 25 centigrade and water has 18 centigrade on start.) and got that result. And theory say's same. The thermoelectric cooler's are just 'junk'. PERIOD.

p.s.
some cooler's have the 'heating' option. They declare that can coll 20 centigrade under environmemt temperature or 65 centigrade above ambient. With empty I can got 17 centigrade under ambient but 73 above. And that's claim that peltie suck for this. The good one's are in satelites the rest ("junk") is on the earth.

Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

开云体育

I agree Ed, plenty of ways to skin this cat. The easier ones don't involve vacuum and can be done for low cost too.

On that note wonder what the humidity is where he is, if it's low enough then he might get away with water wicking through hessian for an evaporative chiller box set up. Was the way it was done in the Aussie outback pre refrigeration times.... Kept the butter solid in summer by all accounts!

Thomas.

On 18/06/2011 9:49 PM, ed ward wrote:

?
Get a thick foam cooler and a thermoelectric cooling device and run it off you car or a couple batterys and a solar panel


Ed- not vacuum related post I just couldn,t stand it any longer

From: Slavko Kocjancic
To: VacuumX@...
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: [VacuumX] Re: "Cheap" vacuum

?
S, Thomas Janstrom pi?e:
Incidentally if you have access to compressed food grade CO2, then you can make your own CO2 snow and bricks with the acquisition of an adiabatic cooling box thingy, new they run ~U$400ish used a lot less, 50lb cylinder of gas will get you ~10x1kg blocks? of dry ice which with good insulation should give you about a week/block.

Thomas.

The only source of CO2 here (that I know) is fire extinguisher. And is little expensive to refill.



Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

Get a thick foam cooler and a thermoelectric cooling device and run it off you car or a couple batterys and a solar panel
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PJT-10/LARGE-THERMOELECTRIC-DEVICE/1.html

Ed- not vacuum related post I just couldn,t stand it any longer

From: Slavko Kocjancic
To: VacuumX@...
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: [VacuumX] Re: "Cheap" vacuum

?
S, Thomas Janstrom pi?e:
Incidentally if you have access to compressed food grade CO2, then you can make your own CO2 snow and bricks with the acquisition of an adiabatic cooling box thingy, new they run ~U$400ish used a lot less, 50lb cylinder of gas will get you ~10x1kg blocks? of dry ice which with good insulation should give you about a week/block.

Thomas.

The only source of CO2 here (that I know) is fire extinguisher. And is little expensive to refill.


Re: "Cheap" vacuum

Slavko Kocjancic
 

开云体育

S, Thomas Janstrom pi?e:
Incidentally if you have access to compressed food grade CO2, then you can make your own CO2 snow and bricks with the acquisition of an adiabatic cooling box thingy, new they run ~U$400ish used a lot less, 50lb cylinder of gas will get you ~10x1kg blocks? of dry ice which with good insulation should give you about a week/block.

Thomas.

The only source of CO2 here (that I know) is fire extinguisher. And is little expensive to refill.

Re: "Cheap" vacuum

Slavko Kocjancic
 

S, Gomez Addams pie:
IF it were me, I'd put a bunch of PV panels on the roof of the lodge
and use a conventional 12V RV refrigerator. But if you've no budget,
I think you're going to be doing a lot of building and manual effort,
Hello...
Well That could be solution but have two problems. The budget and the other one is more complicated. I have no sun. Ie all around me are the high tree's and have shade all around me. After year observation I'm managed to put my smal panel (40w) in the roof and have les than 4 hour (unrestricted) insulation on the day (and near 6 hours in winter time as there are no leaves on the trees and shades are thin.) Finding location for (unshaded) square metre of panel is near inposible. (well with chain saw ... )


no matter what the solution. After all, SOMETHING must provide the
to constantly move the heat out of the fridge that leaks into it.

PS: Superinsulation is your friend. So is "dry ice" (frozen CO2) in
most cities.
Dry ice is not available here. ..and I don't understand how the dry ice can be insulator?!? I thinking in 5mc (2 inches) of expanded polistyrene..
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

 

开云体育

Incidentally if you have access to compressed food grade CO2, then you can make your own CO2 snow and bricks with the acquisition of an adiabatic cooling box thingy, new they run ~U$400ish used a lot less, 50lb cylinder of gas will get you ~10x1kg blocks? of dry ice which with good insulation should give you about a week/block.

Thomas.

On 18/06/2011 9:02 AM, Gomez Addams wrote:

?

IF it were me, I'd put a bunch of PV panels on the roof of the lodge
and use a conventional 12V RV refrigerator. But if you've no budget,
I think you're going to be doing a lot of building and manual effort,
no matter what the solution. After all, SOMETHING must provide the
to constantly move the heat out of the fridge that leaks into it.

PS: Superinsulation is your friend. So is "dry ice" (frozen CO2) in
most cities.

On Jun 7, 2011, at 1:16 AM, slavkok wrote:

>
>
> --- In VacuumX@..., "slavkok" wrote:
>>
>> Hello...
>>
>> I need to make vacuum in range 5 to 10 mBar. What device to use for
>> that. I need to evacuate aprox 5 litre box but I do not have
>> electricity on place where I need to do that. What options I have?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
> Hello...
>
> I got few orthodox sugestions. But all seems to be inposible to do.
> ... to get vaccum in container the container is to big.
> ... to buy gassoline powered generator is out of question
> ... to use heavy metal to evacuate is to danger and near inpossible
> to do.
> ... to use steam seem's possible but not in my case. (it wil
> saturate content)
>
> to explain why I need that.
> In remote location (lodge) I wan't refrigerator to keep foot in cold
> enought place. Gas refrigerator is just too expensive here and I
> like to experiment. So I plan to make adsorption refrigerator. It's
> simple and can be cheap. Just need isolated box with some evaporator
> inside and canister filled with zeolite. All thing should be sealed
> and put under vacuum. When watter starts to boil the temperature
> will drop. So I need to 'pump' it until the water is colled down to
> aprox 7 degres celsius (10 mbar) and that's all. The zeolite then
> suck that water vapour until saturate. With good insulation it
> should work for at least 2 days or at least 7 days if dorr is keept
> close. So I need to regenerate it at least once per week or more if
> the dor was frequently oppened. I search for some hand driven pump
> but not happy with what I fund till now.
>
> Here is links what can be done...
>
>
>
> and patent here
>
>
> Slavko
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Re: "Cheap" vacuum

Gomez Addams
 

IF it were me, I'd put a bunch of PV panels on the roof of the lodge
and use a conventional 12V RV refrigerator. But if you've no budget,
I think you're going to be doing a lot of building and manual effort,
no matter what the solution. After all, SOMETHING must provide the
to constantly move the heat out of the fridge that leaks into it.

PS: Superinsulation is your friend. So is "dry ice" (frozen CO2) in
most cities.

On Jun 7, 2011, at 1:16 AM, slavkok wrote:



--- In VacuumX@..., "slavkok" <eslavko@...> wrote:

Hello...

I need to make vacuum in range 5 to 10 mBar. What device to use for that. I need to evacuate aprox 5 litre box but I do not have electricity on place where I need to do that. What options I have?

Thanks
Hello...

I got few orthodox sugestions. But all seems to be inposible to do.
... to get vaccum in container the container is to big.
... to buy gassoline powered generator is out of question
... to use heavy metal to evacuate is to danger and near inpossible to do.
... to use steam seem's possible but not in my case. (it wil saturate content)

to explain why I need that.
In remote location (lodge) I wan't refrigerator to keep foot in cold enought place. Gas refrigerator is just too expensive here and I like to experiment. So I plan to make adsorption refrigerator. It's simple and can be cheap. Just need isolated box with some evaporator inside and canister filled with zeolite. All thing should be sealed and put under vacuum. When watter starts to boil the temperature will drop. So I need to 'pump' it until the water is colled down to aprox 7 degres celsius (10 mbar) and that's all. The zeolite then suck that water vapour until saturate. With good insulation it should work for at least 2 days or at least 7 days if dorr is keept close. So I need to regenerate it at least once per week or more if the dor was frequently oppened. I search for some hand driven pump but not happy with what I fund till now.

Here is links what can be done...



and patent here


Slavko



------------------------------------

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